Bad Catholic Mass music

[Sarabande]

But surely these Masses are sung by a choir and not the congregation. Now if they actually handed out scores in the pews and expected the parisioners to sing then that would seem to be violating “actuosa participatio” (which listening to the Mass being sung would not violate).

Orchestral Masses are certainly not the ordinary, but I have a video of John Paul II celebrating a Mozart Mass, so it must be allowed. Cardinal Ratzinger has pointed out that choir vs. congregation is a false distinction, and that the choir is actually a delegation of the congregation.

So I guess the question is, should some H&H also best be sung only by a trained choir?

Yes, the repertoire list are only for choirs, not for the congregation. I’ve attended many masses that have used music in that repertoire. Most of it, though, was done with an organ reduction rather than an entire orchestra and it sounded just as wonderful.

While studying in Salzburg for the summer, the Cathedral did a Mozart mass every Sunday at the high mass and a Michael Haydn mass for the earlier mass. I loved attending mass in all those churches over there and have never been surrounded by so many Catholics and see so many young religious walking around. Maybe I was just there during the right time of the year, but it seemed like the most Catholic city I’ve ever visited or lived in.

Although I’m not a fan of Alstott/Haugen/Haas music, etc. a good choir and musicians can actually make it sound ok, but they have to throw a lot of extras in there. At many Archdiocese events, the committee likes to have the Heritage Mass. It’s not great, but throw in the brass, organ, timpani and choir and it can sound decent. Use of organ and congregation for the Heritage Mass, uninspiring, but there aren’t many good mass settings for congregation (there are plenty for choir as evidenced by that repertoire list and the repertoire I’ve heard myself at churches) out there, or at least none that I know of being promoted. And as someone else said, we probably won’t see any new ones until the new texts are made public.

 

[pprimeau1976]

But surely these Masses are sung by a choir and not the congregation. Now if they actually handed out scores in the pews and expected the parisioners to sing then that would seem to be violating “actuosa participatio” (which listening to the Mass being sung would not violate).

Orchestral Masses are certainly not the ordinary, but I have a video of John Paul II celebrating a Mozart Mass, so it must be allowed. Cardinal Ratzinger has pointed out that choir vs. congregation is a false distinction, and that the choir is actually a delegation of the congregation.

So I guess the question is, should some H&H also best be sung only by a trained choir?

I don’t know if that is what should be done, but I think that this shows that the “singability” of the music holds no weight.

 

[anamchara]

You know, I’ve put over 30 years of my musical talent into our parish’s music, much of it is OCP stuff. I’ll admit some of it isn’t great but you know we do the best we can, belonging to a parish with a bunch of country farmers. And yes, I play guitar. I get really angry when people here bash this music. The organ broke but we use the piano and guitars as accompanyment. In theory it may seem great to have chant or the alike at all masses. It simply isn’t possible for us, and I’m tired of hearing all the OCP bashing. To think I spent the last 30+ years wasting my time on bad music rather than the sacrifice of my time and talent, not to mention the fact that all guitarist supply their instruments and some of us even buy our own music because it helps our little parish. And we get no compensation because the parish can’t afford it and even if it could we don’t want it. I’m sick of all the belly aching. We do the best we can.

Amen! And thank you. This is similar to our situation. Dh plays the guitar as well I think this is why I get sick of people complaining about how it’s not reverent enough.

 

[VociMike]

I don’t know if that is what should be done, but I think that this shows that the “singability” of the music holds no weight.

It does not show this if congregational singing is the goal. We know this is not the goal with Mozart Masses. Is it the goal with “On Eagle’s Wings” or “One Bread, One Body”, to use your examples?

 

[VAC]

Most contemporary songs share two commonalities: sappy, dated music based on popular easy-listening music from the 1970’s, and a theological content that is often vague (Gather Us In, Anthem), careless (The Supper of the Lord), or just plain wrong (Ashes, Sing a New Church). Anything that attributes words to Jesus or His Father that are not found in Scripture should be avoided.

Can you be more specific about why these songs are theologically incorrect?

If by ‘Sappy’ you mean evoking an emotional response, to the powerful love of our God and what he has done for us, why is that a bad thing? Read the psalms!!!

When the USCCB met last fall they stopped short of taking any official action against any of the popular composers or any musical instruments.They also refrained from creating a list of acceptable songs.
While gregorian chant, Latin, and the Organ are preferred, they are not mandated as the only music allowed in mass.

I’m interested in why anyone other than the pope thinks they have more authority than the US bishops to decide what’s appropriate at mass.??

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

By the way -

What is so theologically incorrect about some of these songs? Lets look at Sing A New Church.

"Summoned by the God who made us, rich in our diversity. Gathered in the name of Jesus, richer still in unity.

Let us bring the gifts the differ, and in splendid, varied ways sing a new church into being one in faith, and love, and praise."

This is a great text inspired, albeit loosely, by the popular passage in I Corinthians. First the text says that we are rich in diversity; The church IS diverse: the Church is the people of every race, language, culture, and way of life. We all come with different talents as well. So we definately are summoned by the God who created us, rich in diversity. Next, we are gathered together in the name of Jesus, are we not? And certainly we are gathered in unity with each other. So the first 2 lines are sound.

We bring our varied gifts and talents, as Paul wrote. We do so in service to the Church. And when we give of ourselves, great things happen: A vibrant church is found, the work of the gospel gets accomplished, all sorts of wonderful things happen. That is to say that being one in faith, and love and praise, we sing a new church into being.

What is not sound about this hymn?

 

[pprimeau1976]

It does not show this if congregational singing is the goal. We know this is not the goal with Mozart Masses. Is it the goal with “On Eagle’s Wings” or “One Bread, One Body”, to use your examples?

On Eagle’s Wings is a bad example. For me, that is unsingable, because I am a tenor and have difficulty with the lower range. If I were a music director, I would never choose this song for congregational singing. However, that tune has gained popularity and it aids in many people’s prayer and would be useful as a prelude or a post communion reflection if Psalm 91 was used. It is my opinion that it should never be used for the Psalm itself.

One Bread, One Body is an example of a singable song. Unlike Eagles Wings, it is all set within a reasonable range. If you can sing Happy Birthday, this song is singable and I am racking my brain as to if this would ever be a bad theological song. The lyrics are from scripture, not the NAB translation, but it is from scripture.

 

[pprimeau1976]

"Summoned by the God who made us, rich in our diversity. Gathered in the name of Jesus, richer still in unity.

WE ARE NOT RICH IN DIVERSITY!!! EVERYONE SHOULD BE LATIN RITE!!! LATIN RITE ALL THE WAY!!! HOOOOORAH!!! (That was my pathetic attempt at satire.)

 

[JimR-OCDS]

You know, I’ve put over 30 years of my musical talent into our parish’s music, much of it is OCP stuff. I’ll admit some of it isn’t great but you know we do the best we can, belonging to a parish with a bunch of country farmers. And yes, I play guitar. I get really angry when people here bash this music. The organ broke but we use the piano and guitars as accompanyment. In theory it may seem great to have chant or the alike at all masses. It simply isn’t possible for us, and I’m tired of hearing all the OCP bashing. To think I spent the last 30+ years wasting my time on bad music rather than the sacrifice of my time and talent, not to mention the fact that all guitarist supply their instruments and some of us even buy our own music because it helps our little parish. And we get no compensation because the parish can’t afford it and even if it could we don’t want it. I’m sick of all the belly aching. We do the best we can.

I can’t agree with you more. I too played guitar at Mass. The upright bass player, a former professional jazz musician, use to play in Judy Garlands band. We played GIA and OCP music as well as some old traditional hymns that could be played well with finger style picking.

It can be a thankless job, for sure.

Jim

 

[pprimeau1976]

I get really angry when people here bash this music. The organ broke but we use the piano and guitars as accompanyment.

What you need to do is have an fundraising drive for the organ and for people who donate. Put a plaque on the organ for the people who donated, and then buy a cheap one for people who whined about the music, but never donated to fix the organ.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

What you need to do is have an fundraising drive for the organ and for people who donate. Put a plaque on the organ for the people who donated, and then buy a cheap one for people who whined about the music, but never donated to fix the organ.

Easier said than done.

In my large, suburban parish with families who make healthy incomes, getting a new organ installed is going to be quite the project and probably uphill all the way. I’m optimistic that it will happen but it won’t be easy.

I can’t even imgaine such an undertaking in a parish where music ISN’T a priority and that is relatively poor.

 

[VociMike]

FWIW, I want to point out that it is quite possible to have excellent and suitable music at Mass without any using instruments whatsoever. Our church does it all the time, and the people sing the roof off.

 

[lak611]

After having studied theology for several years and having been exposed to traditional Catholic hymnody, chant, and polyphony, I deeply regret having taught them the songs. I have an open mind, and there are certain (very few) contemporary hymns I will use. I’ll listen to any unfamiliar song and evaluate it’s theological accuracy and melodic sense. Most contemporary songs share two commonalities: sappy, dated music based on popular easy-listening music from the 1970’s, and a theological content that is often vague (Gather Us In, Anthem), careless (The Supper of the Lord), or just plain wrong (Ashes, Sing a New Church). Anything that attributes words to Jesus or His Father that are not found in Scripture should be avoided.

Having a catchy tune or happy lyrics simply isn’t enough to qualify for the worship of God in the Holy Mass. Anything used at Mass should be a higher grade than pedestrian.

NB: Regarding “On Eagle’s Wings,” what was Fr. Joncas thinking when he began his hymn on a 7th?

My problem with most of those newer songs is the lyrics being sung in the first person, as if we are God. I am not the Bread of Life, Jesus is. I am not raising anybody up on eagle’s wings, God is. Hymns should be sung to God, not as if we are God.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

My problem with most of those newer songs is the lyrics being sung in the first person, as if we are God. I am not the Bread of Life, Jesus is. I am not raising anybody up on eagle’s wings, God is. Hymns should be sung to God, not as if we are God.

Its from Sacred Scripture, what God has said, and not making the singers think they are God.

Gesh!

Jim

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

Be careful about stating that EVERYTHING is about political leanings - while I do definately agree that quite often that is the case, it’s not every single time. Sometimes it’s just about not blatently excluding someone for no real reason.

Do you believe that Fr. Frederick Faber meant to blatantly exclude women when he wrote “Faith Of Our Fathers?” The forced imposition of inclusive language in traditional hymns certainly smacks of politics. I did not state that everything was about political leanings, but you should meet some of these modern composers and hear them speak. It’s hard not to come to these conclusions.

 

[THutch04]

Whoever said that “On Eagles Wings” was unsingable because of the lower range, I’d have to say I agree that it’s not the most singable song (I really don’t care for the melody at all), but most OCP music is completely unsingable unless you happen to be a soprano or tenor. That’s the one thing about “On Eagles Wings” that I DO like is that it actually has a part that you don’t have to be a soprano to sing. Sorry, that’s my rant for the day.

 

[VAC]

My problem with most of those newer songs is the lyrics being sung in the first person, as if we are God. I am not the Bread of Life, Jesus is. I am not raising anybody up on eagle’s wings, God is. Hymns should be sung to God, not as if we are God.

It’s called PROPHESY!!! It’s praised throughout the old testament, you are not trying to be in the person of God, you are prophesying the WORDS of GOD. These lyrics are almost exact quotes of John 6 and the 91st psalm!!!

You cannot tell me that the word of GOD do not belong at mass!!!

Moses said when some were being critical of the same:
“Would that ALL would prophesy”

 

[VAC]

FWIW, I want to point out that it is quite possible to have excellent and suitable music at Mass without any using instruments whatsoever. Our church does it all the time, and the people sing the roof off.

Absolutley. I’ve been to many masses with no music. I’ve led songs with no music, and with playing one note on the guitar to give everyone the starting pitch and left the rest of the song unaccompanined.

I understand that the Vatican perfers organ music. However, I can’t help but question how cultural that preference is rather than spiritual. There were string instruments and drums in the old testament. There were no pipe organs in Jesus’s day.
I’m curious how many churches in Haiti, Latin and South America and other non European Catholic cultures have only Organ music.
Our Spanish musicians who are first generation immigrants play guitars and drums and are very upbeat and joyous about it.

 

[lak611]

It’s called PROPHESY!!! It’s praised throughout the old testament, you are not trying to be in the person of God, you are prophesying the WORDS of GOD. These lyrics are almost exact quotes of John 6 and the 91st psalm!!!

You cannot tell me that the word of GOD do not belong at mass!!!

Moses said when some were being critical of the same:
“Would that ALL would prophesy”

St. Paul also says that prophecy is a gift that is given to some, not all. We should not feel forced to prophesy.

Some of the lyrics are also troubling in other ways. For instance “Sing a New Church”. We will never have a “new church” as long as we are Catholic. The Catholic Church is the same Church today as it was on Pentecost Day. That is what makes us Catholic, not Protestant.

 

[VAC]

St. Paul also says that prophecy is a gift that is given to some, not all. We should not feel forced to prophesy.

Some of the lyrics are also troubling in other ways. For instance “Sing a New Church”. We will never have a “new church” as long as we are Catholic. The Catholic Church is the same Church today as it was on Pentecost Day. That is what makes us Catholic, not Protestant.

I agree with you about this song. I don’t like it. Someone talked me into playing it once when I first started out leading the music at mass a few years ago. I never played it again.

Every prayer we say at mass has scriptural origins. and therefore could be considered prophesy as well…