Bad Catholic Mass music

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anamchara said:
Thank you for sharing. The Latin Mass is very lovely but it seems fairly clear that the faithful to not sing along. The hymns remind me of how we sang in the Presbyterian Church.
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Because the faithful are suppose to be praying while the priest offers the sacrifice of the mass for the people in Latin.
 
The second video is done by the SSPX, which is the group that the Pope hopes to bring back fully by issuing the Motu Propio. Not requiring a Bishops permission for the use of the Traditional Catholic Mass.
 
bkovacs said:
The second video is done by the SSPX, which is the group that the Pope hopes to bring back fully by issuing the Motu Propio. Not requiring a Bishops permission for the use of the Traditional Catholic Mass.
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Yes, I’m familiar with this. Why are the priest in a straight line toward the Altar at one point?
 
Very similar to when you go to an Eastern Orthodox Church. The choir does the singing, the priest and deacon the Divine Liturgy, and the people pray.
 
anamchara said:
Yes, I’m familiar with this. Why are the priest in a straight line toward the Altar at one point?
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Not sure. I am also trying to learn as much as I can about the Traditional Latin Mass. I will let you know when I find out. I raised in a post-Vatican 2 Catholic Church. And to think this was the way the Mass was celebrated for hundreds of years.
 
You should watch this then watch the Divine Liturgy of St John Chrysostom, done at an Eastern Orthodox Church, and you will see similar reverence. Unlike what we have in the new Catholic Mass today.
You can see a Divine Liturgy hear
saintbarbara.org/
 
bkovacs said:
Here is a better one
youtube.com/watch?v=enWiFcsBqIE
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The diction is horrible; I’ve heard better latin from secular high-school choirs, at least until the Gloria. The constant elisions of consonants makes it unrecognizable as words, especially with the echoes. I’m fairly certain some of that is microphone issues, but I’m also fairly certain not all of it is.

The priest’s diction isn’t bad, but there are some elisions there as well. The deacon’s is in between.

The parts I’ve memorized I’m recognizing not from the words, but from the melody alone.

There are some sounds being made that are not part of Latin… at least not according to any latin texts I’ve seen (sum total: 3 of them).

I can understand the appeal, but do not find it at all appealing myself. ESPECIALLY with the poor diction of the choir, and the elisions and staggering of entrances on what is supposed to be unison. (I’ve a Missale Romanum handy.)

It is nice to see a Priest, Deacon, and Subdeacon, but for valid theological reasons the office of Subdeacon was deleted by Vatican II. Reasons evident in the 1913 Catholic Encylopedia, significantly before the Vatican II reforms.

As music, it’s pretty, and yet it’s dull, and it calls me to sleep.

As for the congregation… is there one? (Not counting the choir.) The pews looked quite empty during the procession.
 
HI,

I’m really new to this stuff so bear with me, please!

I’ve been a musician at our parish for over 7 years (the moment I turned 13 I was up volunteering for the teen choir) One, it’s my way of doing something active for my parish, two, I love doing it, even in spite of personality conflicts now and then (we’re still human…)

So… Yeah- I’ve been through good music and bad. From a musician’s standpoint (I play flute, mandolin and occasionally sing) alot of the newer stuff is… well… I’m not sure quite how to say it. I like some, I don’t like some. I don’t look at composers as much as I look at what they’re wanting me to play! Some of the more traditional hymns in our books (we have Gather Comprehensive) are even ones that make you look at the words and think… what in the world? (a phrase that comes to mind “[something something] of evil, get you gone” :confused: )

I don’t think much of the stuff in Gather is singable. I don’t know about the rest of the world, but my comfortable range stops at C. The words are like something that only an auctioneer could rattle off, and the melodies break every composition rule in the book. And, alot just don’t make any sense.

Our director also loves to bring individual pieces of contemporary Christian music in on occasion (“Breath of Heaven”, “Revive Us, O God”, etc) Who can sing along with those, or concentrate on prayer over it??? AAAH! (Not to mention many are unplayable for me 😛 )

So yes- would someone please sit down with all the music books and weed 'em out??? Even Sister Act used mostly Traditional hymns.
 
Aramis said:
The diction is horrible; I’ve heard better latin from secular high-school choirs, at least until the Gloria. The constant elisions of consonants makes it unrecognizable as words, especially with the echoes. I’m fairly certain some of that is microphone issues, but I’m also fairly certain not all of it is.

The priest’s diction isn’t bad, but there are some elisions there as well. The deacon’s is in between.
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Much of this has to do with the fact that different language groups pronounce Ecclesial Latin differently. German Latin is different from French Latin is different from English Latin is different from…

I learned this from my wife who used to sing in symphonic choruses. Her directors would say things like “we’re going to sing this piece in German Latin” and they’d all adjust their pronunciation accordingly.
 
kamz said:
If it is so wrong then why wasn’t this changed 40 years ago? Why was this music ever started in churches in the first place?
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Can you say, “American bishops”?

I knew you could! 😉
 
I don’t understand something at all.

Vatican II made it clear that the PEOPLE are supposed to sing along in the liturgy. Not just the choir.

Some people here have said that the people are supposed to be praying during the singing. Those videos above show the people not singing.

This isn’t what the Church teaches at all.

Do the people who advocate no singing from the congregation not accept the documents of Vatican II?

I…I…don’t know how to respond to this. I think…with all due respect… that it is a failure to submit to the Church.

Am I missing something here?

The Church (the Vatican) has supported the documents of Vat II. You may disagree, but as a Catholic, aren’t you supposed to bring yourself into line with the Church teachings?

Please don’t accuse me of being a “bully” again. I don’t see how I’m a bully because I believe in submitting to the authority of Jesus Christ that He delegated to His Vicar. I am not accusing people of disobeying the Pope. I just don’t understand how they can say they’re submitting when they criticize people for obeying the teachings of Vat II by including new music that the people can sing along with.
 
I’m not a vocalist, but I have accompanied (piano) for many voice teachers and choral directors and for professional singers, so I’ve learned a lot about singing from osmosis.

I used to think that I couldn’t sing higher than an A above Middle C.

Then I started learning about the placement of the voice, specifically the head voice. I learned to do “sirens” and other vocal exercises to warm up and place the voice.

I don’t have a solo-quality voice, but now I can sing the melody line to any hymn in the hymnal, including the “high” hymns.

My college choral director taught us that the lower-voiced people (altos, basses) actually have a bigger range than the higher-voiced people (sopranos, tenors) because their smaller vocal chords make it impossible for them to sing low, while the longer vocal chords of the altos and basses do not prevent them from singing some very high notes.

I know that most trained altoes and tenors can sing extremely high notes, usually at least an A above high C, and sometimes higher.

In various choirs that I have been part of (as a singer), we are trained (as altos and basses) to use a head voice to sing those same high notes. For men, the falsetto can be used to reach unbelievable high notes. I heard a man a few weeks ago singing high C in a concert, and it was beautiful.

So I don’t buy this business of not being able to sing high.

I think that if people were taught how to sing correctly, most people COULD reach the high notes, which really aren’t all that high (B above middle C, C, D, and sometimes E).

I think a lot of people in churches just don’t know how to use their voice. I challenge people who don’t think they can sing high to take a few voice lessons (probably your church music director can help you out), perhaps in a classroom setting with other church members (to lower the costs a little), and I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised to learn that you CAN indeed sing those “high” songs!

On the other hand, I do think it’s very pretty when there is harmony in the congregational singing, and I do wish that more Catholic hymnals printed the four parts so that those of us who know how to read music can add the harmony parts. I can often fake it and harmonize without music, but then I usually hit a few “klinkers” that I think must distract whoever is unfortunate enough to be seated in front of me. I would prefer to have the music to read so I can sing the part correctly.
 
pprimeau1976 said:
No, but I do know of one particular Church in the Detroit area that is very traditional and has done “Orchestral Masses”

Now, I do not condemn Assumption Grotto, they are obviously meeting a demand in the Church, but I would like to know if the same people who condemn Haas and Haugen would condemn this Church for choosing Mozart, Haydn, and Gounod?

They do offer Latin masses with Gregorian chant, but should they even have these “Orchestral Masses”?
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Excellent observation and challenge. One could quite easily and successfully argue (if one were inclined, which I’m not!) that the stereotypical music many here called “OCP stuff” has more validity for use at service from the perspective of Tra le sollectudini than does the performance Masses of Haydn and Mozart (I except Gounod, obviously.) Pius X’s MP of 1903 and letter to Cardinal Resphigi clearly contravened the proliferation of the Italian/Romantic/operatic modality that festered in Rome.

Personally, I do have issues with performance Masses being programmed at actual liturgies. I specifically recall a Mass at St. Patricks NYC in memorium of 9/11 inwhich the Director of Music did use a Mozart Mass (not REQUIEM) for the ordinary movements. At the time I clearly watched the congregation (via EWTN) during moments such as those passing during the “Sanctus” and did not see the so-called “interior” actuoso participatio; I saw disconnection, bewilderment, detachment.
The moment would have been better served with chant, or a Mass like Proulx’s Mass for the City. So, between artistic ego or “fulfilling a demand” (wow, consumerist-driven notion of demand=supply for worship music!) we musicians need to really examine both our traditions and our intentions for each piece of music we program. I really don’t care WHO publishes what.
 
Cat said:
I don’t understand something at all.

Vatican II made it clear that the PEOPLE are supposed to sing along in the liturgy. Not just the choir.

Some people here have said that the people are supposed to be praying during the singing. Those videos above show the people not singing.

This isn’t what the Church teaches at all.

Do the people who advocate no singing from the congregation not accept the documents of Vatican II?

I…I…don’t know how to respond to this. I think…with all due respect… that it is a failure to submit to the Church.

Am I missing something here?

The Church (the Vatican) has supported the documents of Vat II. You may disagree, but as a Catholic, aren’t you supposed to bring yourself into line with the Church teachings?

Please don’t accuse me of being a “bully” again. I don’t see how I’m a bully because I believe in submitting to the authority of Jesus Christ that He delegated to His Vicar. I am not accusing people of disobeying the Pope. I just don’t understand how they can say they’re submitting when they criticize people for obeying the teachings of Vat II by including new music that the people can sing along with.
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Are you implying that the Second Vatican Council called for the entire congregation to sing along with everything the choir is supposed to sing?
 
I’m for NO music at mass, personally. My husband and I look for masses with choirs.
 
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