Bad Catholic Mass music

[Sarabande]

Much of this has to do with the fact that different language groups pronounce Ecclesial Latin differently. German Latin is different from French Latin is different from English Latin is different from…

I learned this from my wife who used to sing in symphonic choruses. Her directors would say things like “we’re going to sing this piece in German Latin” and they’d all adjust their pronunciation accordingly.

This is true. When I sang in choirs, our directors would do the same thing, especially when we sang Bach. I have cds where some will pronounce the Latin in the way the composer would have heard it. I believe we have a Faure Requiem recording of the French pronunciation of the Latin, although we also have another one in the Italian pronuciation. When I’ve attended Latin NO masses in France, their Latin is specifically French. Same with ther German NO. Never had a chance to attend a Latin mass in Italy, since most of my stay was in one little town. The English also has a certain type of pronunciation of the Latin. Each one also has a specific quality of their voices in their singing. I only sing as a soloist now outside of mass, and will sing most of my Latin in the Italian style, unless I’m asked to pronounce it in another way.

In regards to the recording on YouTube, it’s hard to say if it’s just the recording quality, the echo, the fault of the direcor, or the fact that the singers are not fully trained, do not enunciate well or just don’t know how to “own the words” as my voice teacher always tells me. Hard to explain, but it’s always difficult to understand anyone in any language if they do not own their words or do not know how to repeat the vowel sound in their heads when singing a long phrase on one vowel. I always have a heck of a time understanding people singing songs in English, especially more of the rock and contemporary type of songs. The same with some opera singers. I love Dame Joan Sutherland, but she was not known for her diction - but that voice!!! God was truly speaking through that voice.

 

[Wolseley]

I don’t understand something at all.

Vatican II made it clear that the PEOPLE are supposed to sing along in the liturgy. Not just the choir.

Yes, that’s correct.

Some people here have said that the people are supposed to be praying during the singing. Those videos above show the people not singing.

That’s because in the pre-Vatican II Tridentine Rite, the people did not sing, even though they originally were supposed to; the choir did.

This isn’t what the Church teaches at all.

Do the people who advocate no singing from the congregation not accept the documents of Vatican II?

I…I…don’t know how to respond to this. I think…with all due respect… that it is a failure to submit to the Church.

Actually, I believe the people can sing along with the choir in the Tridentine Rite; in the Tridentine Masses I have attended, many of the people did; but it’s a cultural thing that many are used to just remaining silent during the Mass. I’m not saying it’s correct, I am merely pointing it out as an observation.

The Church (the Vatican) has supported the documents of Vat II. You may disagree, but as a Catholic, aren’t you supposed to bring yourself into line with the Church teachings?

If we’re going to censure every Catholic who has failed to bring themselves in line with the teachings of Vatican II, there are bishops, priests, theologians, and liturgists galore who have failed, massively, to do so. Let’s pick on them first, before we go after the laity.

Please don’t accuse me of being a “bully” again. I don’t see how I’m a bully because I believe in submitting to the authority of Jesus Christ that He delegated to His Vicar. I am not accusing people of disobeying the Pope. I just don’t understand how they can say they’re submitting when they criticize people for obeying the teachings of Vat II by including new music that the people can sing along with.

I can understand your confusion, Cat; and for what it’s worth, I don’t see you as being a bully. However, I think you’ve answered your own question in the last sentence of your post: new music that the people can sing along with. As we’ve discussed many, many times, a lot of people simply cannot sing this stuff that was written in the 1960’s and 70’s. The reasons are numerous, but a short review includes music that has too many changes of meter, key, tempo, etc., music that is theologically murky and may be offensive to some, and music that may be just plain too insipid or overused (the SAME song EVERY Sunday!) for many to stomach any more.

I don’t think it’s a case of people refusing to obey Vatican II by not singing; in any of the parishes I’ve been a member of, many people will simply stand there while the rock combo band warbles about gathering in the rich and the haughty, but when you have an organist playing “Holy God, We Praise Thy Name”, they join in with gusto, every tongue in the church singing.

The people will sing if you give them music to sing that is designed for congregational singing instead of three folkies with a guitar. So in this particular instance, it’s not disobedience to Vatican II, it’s simply a case of some puerile, outdated folk music from 35 years ago that needs to be replaced with something much more fitting for liturgical worship.

 

[Sarabande]

My college choral director taught us that the lower-voiced people (altos, basses) actually have a bigger range than the higher-voiced people (sopranos, tenors) because their smaller vocal chords make it impossible for them to sing low, while the longer vocal chords of the altos and basses do not prevent them from singing some very high notes.

Most singers of any range have about the same amount of notes within their range, just at different parts of the scale. It’s not that altos and basses have a bigger range than sopranos or tenors. I’m one of the strange ones (Mezzo-Soprano) so I can sing both alto and soprano, depending on the composer and era of music. I can sing Soprano in most of Handel’s works and have sung many soprano sacred works by Mozart. I can do either Alto or Soprano in Bach. Rossini is one of my specialities and are perfect for the Mezzo-Soprano range especially if you can do the coloratura. It also depends on the where the tessitura lies. My range lies between G below middle C to High D two octaves above middle C, so I have about 32 black and white notes. But I’m not really considered a Soprano since I can’t stay up in the stratusphere all the time like a true Soprano.

I know that most trained altoes and tenors can sing extremely high notes, usually at least an A above high C, and sometimes higher.

Do you mean the A above the C above middle C or an actual A above the High C? That’s like Coloratura range, and definitely would not be an alto. If you meant the former, that would be about right for a true alto.

So I don’t buy this business of not being able to sing high.

I think that if people were taught how to sing correctly, most people COULD reach the high notes, which really aren’t all that high (B above middle C, C, D, and sometimes E).

I think a lot of people in churches just don’t know how to use their voice. I challenge people who don’t think they can sing high to take a few voice lessons (probably your church music director can help you out), perhaps in a classroom setting with other church members (to lower the costs a little), and I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised to learn that you CAN indeed sing those “high” songs!

Although this is definitely true, most people do not have the inclination and sometimes the money to take voice lessons. It also takes more than a few lessons to expand one’s range. But most hymns, whether contemporary or the oldies, don’t even go above a D or E and don’t even stay up there. Most are within the middle range of the voice, so I really don’t think that the range of most hymns are a problem. I think it also depends on how the music is written. If a composer has the music jumping from high to low or low to high, of course it would be difficult. Although I know some people like “On Eagles Wings” (I personally don’t)that is a difficult piece to sing for people because of how it is written.

I think we spoke about this in another thread and I agree with you that proper music training and theory needs to start in the schools before they’re at least 7. It’s especially important in Catholic schools, since the Church is trying to promote congregational singing.

On the other hand, I do think it’s very pretty when there is harmony in the congregational singing, and I do wish that more Catholic hymnals printed the four parts so that those of us who know how to read music can add the harmony parts. I can often fake it and harmonize without music, but then I usually hit a few “klinkers” that I think must distract whoever is unfortunate enough to be seated in front of me. I would prefer to have the music to read so I can sing the part correctly.

I like to sing harmony as well, although most people at this point do not read music, so the four part hymnals won’t be much of a help for them, but if we start getting a new generation out there who have music training, perhaps they can start doing fourpart harmony. The RC priest who married us loved to attend a Byzantine Rite mass at times because he said that the entire congregation would sing their music all in their own parts - sometimes 8-part. They were definitely doing something right in that parish.

 

[Cat]

E.E.N.S.

Here’s what the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy II Vatican Council Dec. 4, 1963 Chapter VI Sacred Music says:

1. Liturgical worship is given a more noble form when the divine offices are celebrated solemnly in song, with the assistance of sacred ministers and the active participation of the people. (Italics mine)
2. Religious singing by the people is to be skillfully fostered, so that in devotions and sacred exercises, as also during liturgical services, the voices of the faithful may ring out according to the norms and requirements of the rubrics. (Italics mine.)
3. Let them produce compositions which have the qualities proper to genuine sacred music, not confining themselves to works which can be sung only by large choirs, but providing also for the needs of small choirs and for the active participation of the entire assemby of the faithful. (Italics mine)

E.E.N.S., in answer to your question, it looks to me like paragraph 118 allows for the fact that some of the liturgy is to be sung (spoken) by the presider, not the people. Am I interpreting that correctly?

As I see it, this entire section of the Vat II Constitution calls for singing by the congregation during the Mass. Am I nterpreting it correctly?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Much of this has to do with the fact that different language groups pronounce Ecclesial Latin differently. German Latin is different from French Latin is different from English Latin is different from…
.

Which makes a good case for saying the Mass in the vernacular.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I’m not a vocalist, but I have accompanied (piano) for many voice teachers and choral directors and for professional singers, so I’ve learned a lot about singing from osmosis.

I used to think that I couldn’t sing higher than an A above Middle C.

Then I started learning about the placement of the voice, specifically the head voice. I learned to do “sirens” and other vocal exercises to warm up and place the voice.

I don’t have a solo-quality voice, but now I can sing the melody line to any hymn in the hymnal, including the “high” hymns.

My college choral director taught us that the lower-voiced people (altos, basses) actually have a bigger range than the higher-voiced people (sopranos, tenors) because their smaller vocal chords make it impossible for them to sing low, while the longer vocal chords of the altos and basses do not prevent them from singing some very high notes.

I know that most trained altoes and tenors can sing extremely high notes, usually at least an A above high C, and sometimes higher.

In various choirs that I have been part of (as a singer), we are trained (as altos and basses) to use a head voice to sing those same high notes. For men, the falsetto can be used to reach unbelievable high notes. I heard a man a few weeks ago singing high C in a concert, and it was beautiful.

So I don’t buy this business of not being able to sing high.

I think that if people were taught how to sing correctly, most people COULD reach the high notes, which really aren’t all that high (B above middle C, C, D, and sometimes E).

I think a lot of people in churches just don’t know how to use their voice. I challenge people who don’t think they can sing high to take a few voice lessons (probably your church music director can help you out), perhaps in a classroom setting with other church members (to lower the costs a little), and I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised to learn that you CAN indeed sing those “high” songs!

On the other hand, I do think it’s very pretty when there is harmony in the congregational singing, and I do wish that more Catholic hymnals printed the four parts so that those of us who know how to read music can add the harmony parts. I can often fake it and harmonize without music, but then I usually hit a few “klinkers” that I think must distract whoever is unfortunate enough to be seated in front of me. I would prefer to have the music to read so I can sing the part correctly.

So the people now must take voice lessons so they can be part of the Mass. Wonderful!

 

[VociMike]

Which makes a good case for saying the Mass in the vernacular.

Jim

Not at all. I can understand Latin words spoken with a French “accent”, but I can’t understand French. What you are suggesting is that a English-speaking person from Nashville can’t understand an English Mass celebrated in Boston.

 

[Sarabande]

Which makes a good case for saying the Mass in the vernacular.

Jim

Yeah, but I’ve attended mass in different areas of the country and in the British Isles and sometimes had a difficult time even understanding people speaking my own language. LOL!!!

When I was Salzburg, our accompanist, who was from northern Germany, was sitting in the bus with us when these cute, little old Austrian men started flirting with me in their dialect. The bus had turned a corner very quickly and I almost sat on one of their laps, thus prompting them to start with the flirting. I was able to sort of understand what they were saying, but after they got off the bus, the accompanist said to me (she speaks “hoch deutsche”), “We speak the same language, but I could barely understand one word they said.” hahahah!

Anyway, Latin vs. vernacular - it doesn’t matter to me, but I do have to say I prefer the Latin when traveling to other countries because even if they have an accent, as long as I know the prayers or can follow along in the booklets, I can still at least “participate”.

 

[E.E.N.S]

E.E.N.S.

Here’s what the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy II Vatican Council Dec. 4, 1963 Chapter VI Sacred Music says:

1. Liturgical worship is given a more noble form when the divine offices are celebrated solemnly in song, with the assistance of sacred ministers and the active participation of the people. (Italics mine)
2. Religious singing by the people is to be skillfully fostered, so that in devotions and sacred exercises, as also during liturgical services, the voices of the faithful may ring out according to the norms and requirements of the rubrics. (Italics mine.)
3. Let them produce compositions which have the qualities proper to genuine sacred music, not confining themselves to works which can be sung only by large choirs, but providing also for the needs of small choirs and for the active participation of the entire assemby of the faithful. (Italics mine)

E.E.N.S., in answer to your question, it looks to me like paragraph 118 allows for the fact that some of the liturgy is to be sung (spoken) by the presider, not the people. Am I interpreting that correctly?

As I see it, this entire section of the Vat II Constitution calls for singing by the congregation during the Mass. Am I nterpreting it correctly?

Actually, as our current Pope has said, many people misunderstand what “active participation” (or actuosa participatio) actually means. The quotes that you referenced does not set about the ordering of the entire congregation singing each and everything that is to be sung at Mass. Somethings (such as the propers) are often times best left up to the choir, while the ordinaries and more familiar hymns would be more fitting for the entire congregation to sing along with.

 

[VociMike]

Yes, that’s correct.

That’s because in the pre-Vatican II Tridentine Rite, the people did not sing, even though they originally were supposed to; the choir did.

Actually, I believe the people can sing along with the choir in the Tridentine Rite; in the Tridentine Masses I have attended, many of the people did; but it’s a cultural thing that many are used to just remaining silent during the Mass. I’m not saying it’s correct, I am merely pointing it out as an observation.

Every pre-Vatican II document I have seen on sacred music calls for the faithful to take part in that singing which belongs to them. I think (largely from reading “Why Catholics Can’t Sing”) that the American situation was somewhat unique, with the large Irish Catholic influence in America and the Irish heritage of not singing, in part because they were persecuted in Ireland and had to keep their Catholicism quiet both figuratively and literally.

 

[VociMike]

Actually, as our current Pope has said, many people misunderstand what “active participation” (or actuosa participatio) actually means. The quotes that you referenced does not set about the ordering of the entire congregation singing each and everything that is to be sung at Mass. Somethings (such as the propers) are often times best left up to the choir, while the ordinaries and more familiar hymns would be more fitting for the entire congregation to sing along with.

Yes, and even today that distinction is kept with e.g. the responsorial psalm and the alleluia.

 

[pprimeau1976]

So many people here have been criticizing the Latin at the Tridentine rite parishes and this and that, do people know that there are two types of Latin? There is liturgical Latin and common Latin. There is a difference between the two.

The person who told me this was my music director, who is reintroducing more Latin tunes, and even *contemporary *Latin tunes. Oh the SCANDAL of it all!

Seriously folks, give the Tridentine priest a break, or else no priest will want to reintroduce the Tridentine Latin Mass. You would think that a priest is a father with a thousand nagging toddlers!

 

[JButky]

Vatican II made it clear that the PEOPLE are supposed to sing along in the liturgy. Not just the choir.

Some people here have said that the people are supposed to be praying during the singing. Those videos above show the people not singing.

This isn’t what the Church teaches at all.

Do the people who advocate no singing from the congregation not accept the documents of Vatican II?

EENS has already pointed out what the Church does teach and how it (active participation) has been misinterpreted (as demonstrated in your post). Which is also why the Church keeps explaining it.

It has been said many times that one does not sing in the liturgy. One is to sing the liturgy.

It’s not about advocating non singing by the congregation. It is that active participation as taught by the Church does NOT mean everyone singing everything. The Church has stated that listening is just as active as singing…The attempt to coerce everyone to sing everything is misguided. Music is often used as the vehicle to accomplish this misinterpretation of active participation and so much bad music has been written and/or used to that end.

Joe B

 

[Cat]

JimR-OCDS,

I did NOT say that people have to take voice lessons to be able to participate in the Mass.

I challenged people to learn how to sing so that they are able to hit the high notes.

When I first became Catholic a few years ago, I didn’t know anything about the Mass. I didn’t know the responses, the Order of Service, the prayers, anything. I had to study and LEARN how to do it. I had to memorize the Creed, the Gloria, etc. I didn’t complain about it or make sarcastic comments about , "Now I have to take lessons to participate in church. "

I just sat down and learned something new and it turned out to be a blessing to me.

If you or others don’t want to learn how to sing, that’s fine. Hopefully you are not having trouble hitting the high notes during the hymns in your Mass.

But I see nothing wrong with people taking a few voice lessons to learn about how to place the voice in their head so that they can hit those higher notes in the hymns. This isn’t just for “musicians,” it’s for everyone to learn how to sing.

I’m betting that many church music ministers would be happy to conduct a short class for interested parishioners and keep the costs low.

In fact, when I suggested this idea at my workplace, almost everyone in the room expressed interest in learning how to sing better.

There are a lot of admonitions in various Catholic documents, including the Vat II documents, about training the people in music.

Please don’t make fun of my suggestion. Thank you.

 

[Cat]

JButky, thanks for the clarification.

I did understand that the people aren’t expected to sing the entire Mass.

As for the difference between “in the liturgy” and “the liturgy,” I’ll try to be more careful in use of grammar in the furture so as not to mislead people.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Not at all. I can understand Latin words spoken with a French “accent”, but I can’t understand French. What you are suggesting is that a English-speaking person from Nashville can’t understand an English Mass celebrated in Boston.

No what I’m suggesting is, people can understand the Mass better, when its celebrated in their own vernacular.

Jim

 

[VAC]

Are you implying that the Second Vatican Council called for the entire congregation to sing along with everything the choir is supposed to sing?

And this would be a problem how??

 

[VAC]

It probably would not work in many parishes, though. Many people want to pray before Mass, not practise singing.

If you want to accomplish anything ‘different’ that what the congregation is used to, and have them participate, you have to be committed to it, have backup support, and take time to teach it.
If congregational singing of Latin is desired there would need to be some flexibility, if only for a few weeks…

It takes an average of 6 times hearing a song for the average person to learn it in their native language. It would obviously take more than that to learn another language.

If I had been told I could not rehearse the Latin with the crowd before mass, I probably would have thought twice about going through with it.
Also, I’ve been influenced by a pro-Latin choir member (who posts here and told me about this forum )…A priest who encouraged the Latin was another factor in it’s continued use in our parish.

I also had no idea there were so many ways to pronounce Latin until I attempted to teach Pange Lingua to 5 little kids who sing with me… plus half of our adult singers first language is not English… My Latin loving choirmate was a big factor in me not taking the easy way out and teaching it to the kids in English.
But, we’re singing it in Latin on Sunday!!!

I’m sure there are many like me who have never been exposed to Latin at mass.( before 1 1/2 years ago) I’m not sure how it is that people feel singing old hyms in Latin is easier, or how it aids worship if one does not understand what one is singing.

Even though it’s old and traditional it’s NEW to a whole generation!
Change won’t happen overnight it takes planning, work and patience. Same goes for getting folks to sing…

 

[VociMike]

And this would be a problem how??

It would have been a tremendous problem because it would have guaranteed that most of the “treasury of inestimable value” would never again be sung. That includes all the sacred polyphony (which Vatican II especially held up for high esteem) and all of the Gregorian chant Propers, which means most of the Gregorian chant (pride of place, remember) ever written for the Mass.

Yeah, that would have been a problem all right.

 

[Aramis]

So the people now must take voice lessons so they can be part of the Mass. Wonderful!

In Alaska, the state education standards include the ability to sing and read music. Most sixth graders can play instruments in Anchorage, Juneau, Kenai-Soldona, and Fairbanks.

If your local education system isn’t seeing to it, be it a Catholic or Public education, it’s time to lobby for educational change.

ALso, music education provides increases in math scores on the standardized measures in use. Don’t have the studies to hand to cite, but I’ve had to use them in recent papers.