Bad Catholic Mass music

[Cat]

Aramis, our city has had some real problems in our public schools.

A deseg lawsuit set everything back, and many people departed to private schools or homeschools. We have three large home-school coops in our city, and lots of smaller homeschools. I’ve heard estimates of several thousand children and teenagers in the city in homeschools. This year, the Sports Section in our newspaper started covering the homeschool sports conferences (I think one of the basketball teams won.)

Anyway, music education is hit and miss in the public schools in our city. Because of the racial tensions, it seems that many of the schools don’t teach traditional solfege and other “white” music. Instead, they just do sing-a-longs in their music classes, often not even with a piano.

Tragic.

So our city’s music club (the oldest in the United States) has stepped up and offers a series of graded choirs for children and teenagers. These are quite popular, and the teacher is incredible. Kids learn to sing properly and to sightread music in her choir, and the older kids take notes and have quizzes on music theory. I’ve been a guest pianist several times for her group–incredible discipline and diversity.

Also, several churches in our city offer excellent children’s choirs which teach sightsinging and proper singing technique.

All of these choirs have very cheap membership fees (and scholarships for low income students), so it is possible for students to learn music in our city even if their public school is a bust.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I have to observe that I was taught to sing in Latin starting in first grade. How? The nuns gathered the school into the cafeteria where there was a piano. We were first taught how to pronounce the Latin by that time-honored system of Catholic teaching called “rote” Sister would pronounce it, we would repeat it - over and over. And then we would learn the hymn - same method. One hour once a week.

As an altar boy, Father taught us the pronunciation of our responses in the same way. One hour, once a week over the course of the summer. By the time school started in September we were ready.

Music - we were taught to read music starting in the sixth grade and we all learned on these plastic “flutes” - fingered like a recorder.

During Lent, we chant the Kyrie, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei in Latin. These are the same chants we used when I was a boy. Our cantor spends a few minutes teaching the Latin pronunciation and the chant before Mass. We’ve been doing this for the last 12 or so years. Granted a significant percentage of my parish is over 50 and remembers the responses but they do sing out and that helps those who have never heard either the chant or Latin. By Palm Sunday everyone’s got it. It’s not difficult.

I sing in a cathedral choir. We have many choristers for whom singing Latin sacred polyphony is a brand new experience. We use the same method whenever we introduce a new motet. We recite the Latin until we get the pronunciation right. Then we learn the music.

I’m comfortable with Latin and Spanish. But I had to learn how to pronounce French, German, Middle English, and, yes, Vietnamese when we have sung in those languages.

 

[lak611]

I have to observe that I was taught to sing in Latin starting in first grade. How? The nuns gathered the school into the cafeteria where there was a piano. We were first taught how to pronounce the Latin by that time-honored system of Catholic teaching called “rote” Sister would pronounce it, we would repeat it - over and over. And then we would learn the hymn - same method. One hour once a week.

We would probably have some excellent congregational singing if the children in the Catholic schools were taught to sing for the choir at Mass like you were. My parents said that it was required, not optional. They also were required to attend daily Mass in school every day, not just once a week. Why can’t the Catholic schools make Mass a requirement like they used to?

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

We would probably have some excellent congregational singing if the children in the Catholic schools were taught to sing for the choir at Mass like you were. My parents said that it was required, not optional. They also were required to attend daily Mass in school every day, not just once a week. Why can’t the Catholic schools make Mass a requirement like they used to?

Because the states are making more academic requirements all the time. To go to mass every single day AND keep up with what is needed for the school to be accredited, the school day would be way too long.

 

[SMHW]

We would probably have some excellent congregational singing if the children in the Catholic schools were taught to sing for the choir at Mass like you were. My parents said that it was required, not optional. They also were required to attend daily Mass in school every day, not just once a week. Why can’t the Catholic schools make Mass a requirement like they used to?

At least some Catholic schools probably could. But I wouldn’t be surprised to find that parents wouldn’t like it. There are a considerable number of parents who really aren’t as interested in the religious aspects of Catholic schools as they are in the academic aspects. Obviously the school can ignore the wishes of such parents. But it’s been my experience that such schools are rare because they want the parents to pay tuition.

I know when I went to Catholic school back in the 60’s and 70’s the reason daily mass was discontinued was because the school grew to the size where the church wasn’t big enough to accomodate all the students.

 

[lak611]

At least some Catholic schools probably could. But I wouldn’t be surprised to find that parents wouldn’t like it. There are a considerable number of parents who really aren’t as interested in the religious aspects of Catholic schools as they are in the academic aspects. Obviously the school can ignore the wishes of such parents. But it’s been my experience that such schools are rare because they want the parents to pay tuition.

Perhaps the children would evangelize their parents if there was more emphasis on religion in Catholic schools.

I know when I went to Catholic school back in the 60’s and 70’s the reason daily mass was discontinued was because the school grew to the size where the church wasn’t big enough to accomodate all the students.

I don’t think size constraints would be a problem now.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I have to observe that I was taught to sing in Latin starting in first grade. How? The nuns gathered the school into the cafeteria where there was a piano. We were first taught how to pronounce the Latin by that time-honored system of Catholic teaching called “rote” Sister would pronounce it, we would repeat it - over and over. And then we would learn the hymn - same method. One hour once a week.

As an altar boy, Father taught us the pronunciation of our responses in the same way. One hour, once a week over the course of the summer. By the time school started in September we were ready.

Music - we were taught to read music starting in the sixth grade and we all learned on these plastic “flutes” - fingered like a recorder.

During Lent, we chant the Kyrie, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei in Latin. These are the same chants we used when I was a boy. Our cantor spends a few minutes teaching the Latin pronunciation and the chant before Mass. We’ve been doing this for the last 12 or so years. Granted a significant percentage of my parish is over 50 and remembers the responses but they do sing out and that helps those who have never heard either the chant or Latin. By Palm Sunday everyone’s got it. It’s not difficult.

I sing in a cathedral choir. We have many choristers for whom singing Latin sacred polyphony is a brand new experience. We use the same method whenever we introduce a new motet. We recite the Latin until we get the pronunciation right. Then we learn the music.

I’m comfortable with Latin and Spanish. But I had to learn how to pronounce French, German, Middle English, and, yes, Vietnamese when we have sung in those languages.

I pretty much had the experience you had growing up, pre-Vatican II. The nuns would teach us Latin and in training as an altar boy, we memorized it. We had little concept of the meaning of what we memorized and the people in the pews, even less. It was common to see people praying the Rosary during Mass. Some followed in their missals, but again, little understanding of the words being used.

Today, having the Mass in English is blessing. I have also attend Mass on occasion, at a nearby Benedictine monastery, where the parts of the Mass are in Latin. I understand a little more than I did as a boy, but its still a learning experience and although beautiful, not as meaningful as in English. The nuns and monks also sing the hymns in gregorian chant, acapella, in Latin. The nuns do a good job, but the monks have leather vocal chords.

Jim

 

[brotherhrolf]

I pretty much had the experience you had growing up, pre-Vatican II. The nuns would teach us Latin and in training as an altar boy, we memorized it. We had little concept of the meaning of what we memorized and the people in the pews, even less. It was common to see people praying the Rosary during Mass. Some followed in their missals, but again, little understanding of the words being used.

Today, having the Mass in English is blessing. I have also attend Mass on occasion, at a nearby Benedictine monastery, where the parts of the Mass are in Latin. I understand a little more than I did as a boy, but its still a learning experience and although beautiful, not as meaningful as in English. The nuns and monks also sing the hymns in gregorian chant, acapella, in Latin. The nuns do a good job, but the monks have leather vocal chords.

Jim

Jim I have to tell you that my experience was entirely different. I did understand the Latin. I had the English translation of what was being said right there in my St. Joseph Missal. So much Latin was incorporated into English during Elizabethan times that it didn’t take a degree for me to see the relationship between Confiteor Deo omnipotentens and I confess to almighty God or I confess to om(name removed by moderator)otent God.

And you insist that the people in the pews did not know what was being said. Baloney! You demean my family by saying this. You particularly demean my mother who, before I was an altar boy, knelt next to me and pointed out the words in both Latin and English of the ordinary of the Mass and showed me how to follow along. I’m sure you remember “little” missal vs. “big” missal.

But we digress. This thread is on Bad Catholic Mass music and boy, as a member of a cathedral choir, have I had to sing bad Catholic music for diocesan events. “Muppet Music” as our choir director called it. Indeed.

 

[lak611]

We were subjected to bad Mass music today. We got stuck with “We Remember” for Corpus Christi. The second verse sounds Protestant (references to meal, sounds like the lyrics are saying that the Sacrament is a symbol, not the Real Presence).

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Jim I have to tell you that my experience was entirely different. I did understand the Latin. I had the English translation of what was being said right there in my St. Joseph Missal. So much Latin was incorporated into English during Elizabethan times that it didn’t take a degree for me to see the relationship between Confiteor Deo omnipotentens and I confess to almighty God or I confess to om(name removed by moderator)otent God.

And you insist that the people in the pews did not know what was being said. Baloney! You demean my family by saying this. You particularly demean my mother who, before I was an altar boy, knelt next to me and pointed out the words in both Latin and English of the ordinary of the Mass and showed me how to follow along. I’m sure you remember “little” missal vs. “big” missal.

But we digress. This thread is on Bad Catholic Mass music and boy, as a member of a cathedral choir, have I had to sing bad Catholic music for diocesan events. “Muppet Music” as our choir director called it. Indeed.

Relax, I wasn’t demeaning your mother. Gesh!

 

[BobP123]

Today, having the Mass in English is blessing.

Some consider it a curse. Especially since they have an entity such as the ICEL which controls the seemingly new Catholic theology.

 

[BobP123]

We were subjected to bad Mass music today. We got stuck with “We Remember” for Corpus Christi. The second verse sounds Protestant (references to meal, sounds like the lyrics are saying that the Sacrament is a symbol, not the Real Presence).

There are days when I enjoy having no music at all. Certainly it doesn’t take away the meaning of the Mass of either Rite.

 

[lak611]

There are days when I enjoy having no music at all. Certainly it doesn’t take away the meaning of the Mass of either Rite.

I agree.

 

[THutch04]

Aramis, our city has had some real problems in our public schools.

A deseg lawsuit set everything back, and many people departed to private schools or homeschools. We have three large home-school coops in our city, and lots of smaller homeschools. I’ve heard estimates of several thousand children and teenagers in the city in homeschools. This year, the Sports Section in our newspaper started covering the homeschool sports conferences (I think one of the basketball teams won.)

Anyway, music education is hit and miss in the public schools in our city. Because of the racial tensions, it seems that many of the schools don’t teach traditional solfege and other “white” music. Instead, they just do sing-a-longs in their music classes, often not even with a piano.

Tragic.

So our city’s music club (the oldest in the United States) has stepped up and offers a series of graded choirs for children and teenagers. These are quite popular, and the teacher is incredible. Kids learn to sing properly and to sightread music in her choir, and the older kids take notes and have quizzes on music theory. I’ve been a guest pianist several times for her group–incredible discipline and diversity.

Also, several churches in our city offer excellent children’s choirs which teach sightsinging and proper singing technique.

All of these choirs have very cheap membership fees (and scholarships for low income students), so it is possible for students to learn music in our city even if their public school is a bust.

Wow, that’s really tragic. I’m a musician and a vocalist, so obviously music and the arts in general are important to me, and it’s sad that in so many schools across the country music programs are being taken out.

 

[Aramis]

Wow, that’s really tragic. I’m a musician and a vocalist, so obviously music and the arts in general are important to me, and it’s sad that in so many schools across the country music programs are being taken out.

It’s EDIT near criminal.

The “sing-alongs” have not been shown to have the effect of proper music education. The exposure to little more than rap and rock is depriving the marginalized populations of the known academics aiding effects of full-on music programs.

I was a vocal performance major for four years (of a 5 year program), and have sung in a number of languages, and have been blessed by attending, and then later working for, a school district which actually does have a decent music program, even if a few of the teachers don’t get it nor do it right.

As to the Catholic Schools… of the three in anchorage, one refused to let either bishop with ordinary authority (ABp of Anchorage, Ruthenian Eparch of Van Nuys) review their Religious Ed Criteria, and due to the lack of a chapel, they were hiking several blocks for the Ruthenian DL in the mornings… that stopped. Not certain why (but I suspect it has to do with SSPX ties on their board of Directors). A friend who graduated from there had some rather, shall we say, interesting ideas about the Church. Ideas that were readily challenged by a simple trip to Vatican.va

When schools that are members of the National Association of Catholic Schools deny the local ordinaries requests to review their curriculum…

It is indicative of a major rend in the church in America.

Which brings back the point: The Bishops, as a whole, are not holding so-called catholic institutions to toe the line. To and including the clergy.

There are those who will be unhappy with anything. I want music that I can understand, and a liturgy likewise. Rote memorization, for me, isn’t prayer nor prayerful. Letting the choir sing the responses while I silently pray seems an abuse. Being cut out of hearing the consecration… there is much teaching power in the consecration’s words, especially when spoken.

We SHOULD hear it, and preferably sung if the priest can do so without causing scandals due to being monotone.

We SHOULD have hymnals free of obvious, implied, or even misinterpretable-as-, heretical materials.

We SHOULD have a variety of music, because no one style will ever please all.

We SHOULD have reverent participatory music, since that’s what is called for by V II, where the Magisterium as a whole spoke as a whole.

 

[VAC]

Speaking of pronunciation of Latin… You all can let me know how we did…we sang the Tantum Ergo at mass this morning.

I’m posting a link to my choir’s website

home.comcast.net/~blessedjohnxxiiichoir/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html

Click on the link labeled “Tantum Ergo” to listen to us singing it at mass this morning. Keep in mind this is not professional recording quality. It’ll be on there for about a week.

It takes guts for me to share this with strangers who have a low opinion of much of the music I’m playing…We are all entitled to our opinions…
Please be kind and positive with any comments if you chose to listen to any of our other practice clips. Also remember due to practice circumstances, our pianist can’t practice with us…

I do welcome valid liturgical and theoligical criticisms of any of these songs.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

I agree.

I don’t.

Sacrosanctum Concillium made it clear that the liturgy is SUNG. To borrow the now tired quote, “We don’t sing AT the liturgy, we SING THE LITURGY.”

Certainly you CAN celebrate without music; you CAN celebrate in a jungle using an altar made of crates when in the middle of war time - it’s certainly not IDEAL though. So not having music at liturgy should be the rare exception for extraordinary circumstances - not something to “enjoy”.

As far as your previous post re: We Remember: I won’t laud its praises; on a personal level I don’t think much of the song. It’s not great music and I’d rather not sing it. However, there is nothing theologically unsound about it. And Eucharist is a meal; the greatest meal. Sometimes people get so wrapped up in the Real Presence that they forget about the practical aspects of Eucharist and what it really means.**

 

[brotherhrolf]

Speaking of pronunciation of Latin… You all can let me know how we did…we sang the Tantum Ergo at mass this morning.

I’m posting a link to my choir’s website

home.comcast.net/~blessedjohnxxiiichoir/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html

Click on the link labeled “Tantum Ergo” to listen to us singing it at mass this morning. Keep in mind this is not professional recording quality. It’ll be on there for about a week.

It takes guts for me to share this with strangers who have a low opinion of much of the music I’m playing…We are all entitled to our opinions…
Please be kind and positive with any comments if you chose to listen to any of our other practice clips. Also remember due to practice circumstances, our pianist can’t practice with us…

I do welcome valid liturgical and theoligical criticisms of any of these songs.

Rest easy! There were only a very few missteps in the Latin pronunciation. Other than that, it could have been sung at a Novena back in the early 60s. Can O Salutaris Hostia be far behind?

 

[VAC]

Rest easy! There were only a very few missteps in the Latin pronunciation. Other than that, it could have been sung at a Novena back in the early 60s. Can O Salutaris Hostia be far behind?

Thank you so much for the encouragement and taking the time to click and listen. I won’t take the easy (English) way out next year with this song unless someone with authority insists on it.

huh?..O salu- what???

I think I’ve met my foriegn language requirement D
until Advent when we do the Latin chant mass parts again…

 

[VAC]

OK, curiosity got to me, I went and looked up the song…

I found ‘O bread of Life, O Lord of Love’ 4 verses in English, and 2 in Latin (that look brutal to pronounce). That was in an old yellow page Catholic hymnal from my teen years that is falling apart.

The English lyrics look like they have potential for next month’s Sunday readings with the message of seeking the kingdom rather than earthly riches. simple words, simple melody, easy to teach the kids.

Then in my OCP book I found ‘O saving victim’ different melody, same Latin verses, different key, classified as a benediction song.2 verses of each. I wasn’t too interested in that one.