Bad Catholic Mass music

[E.E.N.S]

Some consider it a curse. Especially since they have an entity such as the ICEL which controls the seemingly new Catholic theology.

Not just a curse, but also against the mind of the very Church who still says that Latin is the norm while the vernacular may be used for the readings, homily and prayers of the faithful.

 

[brotherhrolf]

OK, curiosity got to me, I went and looked up the song…

I found ‘O bread of Life, O Lord of Love’ 4 verses in English, and 2 in Latin (that look brutal to pronounce). That was in an old yellow page Catholic hymnal from my teen years that is falling apart.

The English lyrics look like they have potential for next month’s Sunday readings with the message of seeking the kingdom rather than earthly riches. simple words, simple melody, easy to teach the kids.

Then in my OCP book I found ‘O saving victim’ different melody, same Latin verses, different key, classified as a benediction song.2 verses of each. I wasn’t too interested in that one.

Your Tantum Ergo has been sung by generations of Catholics at Benediction. The O Salutaris Hostia is the second most well sung Latin hymn at Benediction. The Latin looks daunting but it’s not. I’d post a link to Mother Angelica’s EWTN nuns singing it but they take it like a dirge not a hymn of praise. We sang it with more vigor and tempo when I was a kid and, yes, I did sing this and Tantum Ergo as a kid. And, the Tantum Ergo melody which your choir learned so well is not the melody for the Tantum Ergo which is chanted on Holy Thursday as verses of the Pange Lingua.

But you are doing a most noble thing and that is exposing our children (and yourself ) to that treasury of Catholic hymnody which dissapeared after 1970. And for that Brother Hrolf gives you a big:thumbsup:

 

[VAC]

Your Tantum Ergo has been sung by generations of Catholics at Benediction. The O Salutaris Hostia is the second most well sung Latin hymn at Benediction. The Latin looks daunting but it’s not. I’d post a link to Mother Angelica’s EWTN nuns singing it but they take it like a dirge not a hymn of praise. We sang it with more vigor and tempo when I was a kid and, yes, I did sing this and Tantum Ergo as a kid. And, the Tantum Ergo melody which your choir learned so well is not the melody for the Tantum Ergo which is chanted on Holy Thursday as verses of the Pange Lingua.

But you are doing a most noble thing and that is exposing our children (and yourself ) to that treasury of Catholic hymnody which dissapeared after 1970. And for that Brother Hrolf gives you a big:thumbsup:

Thanks again Unfortunately, our cable lineup lacks EWTN, but I’ve heard I’m missing quite a bit of good programming.
In order to attempt to pronounce the Latin it that song, I’d need to find a new ‘Latin coach’ I kind of had to ‘fire’ my old one after a choirmate caught several mistakes we were making, although she’s been learning the Latin along with me. Pronunciation guides are no substitue for hearing it correctly live… And I refuse to go into practice to teach something I don’t ‘own’ yet.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Thanks again Unfortunately, our cable lineup lacks EWTN, but I’ve heard I’m missing quite a bit of good programming.
In order to attempt to pronounce the Latin it that song, I’d need to find a new ‘Latin coach’ I kind of had to ‘fire’ my old one after a choirmate caught several mistakes we were making, although she’s been learning the Latin along with me. Pronunciation guides are no substitue for hearing it correctly live… And I refuse to go into practice to teach something I don’t ‘own’ yet.

Don’t feel bad. They moved EWTN up to the digital tier when our diocesan TV channel came on line. After 7 at night we get local programming but before that we get programming from the Archdiocese of Boston - which in no way, shape, or form reflects the norms of the Diocese of Baton Rouge.

I wish I knew how to help you. The good sisters on EWTN have the pronunciation down but the tempo is far too dirge like. Have you asked your congregation if there are any who sang or know how to pronounce Latin - e.g. any altar boys from before VII.? I’m 55, still around, and grew up before VII and was an altar boy. You might have resources that you just haven’t tapped yet.

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

We were subjected to bad Mass music today. We got stuck with “We Remember” for Corpus Christi. The second verse sounds Protestant (references to meal, sounds like the lyrics are saying that the Sacrament is a symbol, not the Real Presence).

Now we recreate your love
We bring the bread and wine to share a meal
Sign of grace and mercy
The presence of the Lord

Yes, there is a reference to a meal. The priest also makes a reference to a meal: “Happy are those who are called to his supper” (sorry if I got the exact wording slightly off). But it explicitly mentions the Real Presence. I don’t understand this criticism.

Although “We Remember” is just about my favorite song in the world, so I may be a little biased.

 

[lak611]

Your Tantum Ergo has been sung by generations of Catholics at Benediction. The O Salutaris Hostia is the second most well sung Latin hymn at Benediction. The Latin looks daunting but it’s not. I’d post a link to Mother Angelica’s EWTN nuns singing it but they take it like a dirge not a hymn of praise. We sang it with more vigor and tempo when I was a kid and, yes, I did sing this and Tantum Ergo as a kid. And, the Tantum Ergo melody which your choir learned so well is not the melody for the Tantum Ergo which is chanted on Holy Thursday as verses of the Pange Lingua.

I have no trouble singing these in Latin. BTW, in my parish, when we alternated English and Latin on these hymns, the congregation sang the Latin more and were pretty much silent when singing the English. The majority of the congregation were people born or raised after 1970.

But you are doing a most noble thing and that is exposing our children (and yourself ) to that treasury of Catholic hymnody which dissapeared after 1970. And for that Brother Hrolf gives you a big:thumbsup:

I agree, and I was born in 1969!

 

[VAC]

I have no trouble singing these in Latin. BTW, in my parish, when we alternated English and Latin on these hymns, the congregation sang the Latin more and were pretty much silent when singing the English. The majority of the congregation were people born or raised after 1970.

I agree, and I was born in 1969!

I had no trouble singing it once I learned the correct pronunciation. The struggle was learning it from scratch, teaching it to the group, and then finding out I had learned and taught some of it wrong, then reteaching it.
My group has a fairly easy time learning it from me once I’ve learned it. Especially the little kids who are sponges.
I told the group that if if was too much Latin to learn, they could hum the melody instead.I thought it would sound nice since it was sung unacompanied. On Sunday, no one was humming.

I really like the idea of alternating Latin and English verses

 

[Swiss_Guard]

My name is already cemented on the list Society for a moratorium on the Music of Marty Haugen and David Haas

It is refreshing to see others feel the same way - can I get an AMEN from someone?

Haugen and Haas sound like a pro wrestling tag team. I think I have an old tape of their match against the Crusher and Bruiser. Crusher and Bruiser won.

 

[RWMorris]

I’ve got a song for a funeral mass that will blow all of these bad songs right out of the water.
I’m an organist and had to play “We’ve Only Just Begun” (yes, the wedding song!) at a funeral mass today! I don’t know what the priest was thinking when he okayed this.

 

[Faithful2]

Objections to the music used during Mass should NOT be based
on whether we like the music or not
on its singability
on the year that it was written
or on the talent (or lack thereof) of the cantor or music minister.

As with other conflicts of opinion in the Church (starting with the Act of the Apostles), conflicts should be settled by Peter and the Apostles (translate Pope and Bishops).

From what I have heard, both Pope Benedict’s comments on appropriate Church music and the concerns of the Bishops have been based primarily on **two things **-- eliminating bad theology which can be found in the words of some modern hymns — and retaining the appropriate sense of reverence during the Mass that reflects our focus on the Eucharist.

Just as we reserve certain solemn music for graduations, inaugurations, coronations, and other solemn occasions, we should similarly listen to the Pope and the Bishops regarding the tone that needs to be set for appropriate celebration of the Mass with appropriate music.

Pope Benedict has spelled out his opinion regarding Mass music very clearly – ecclesiacatholica.com/fontes/ratzinger-5.htm .
The Bishops are in the process of analyzing some modern music and reevaluating it – ncregister.com/site/article/1480 .
Bishop Morlino gives some hints about the concerns that the Church has about some modern music which will help us to guess which hymns may be eliminated – madisoncatholicherald.org/2006-10-26/bishop.html .

I say we wait for the results, accept them humbly, and get on with more important matters such as evangelization. If your favorite modern hymns are eliminated due to heretical words, the words should be changed. If your favorite modern hymns are eliminated due to their insufficient sense of reverence, use these songs BEFORE and AFTER the Mass at picnics, meetings, parties and lunches.

Many modern Catholic musicians are taking this attitude. A discussion of rock muisc at oremusmusic.net/rock_music.php touches on these issues. Oremus, one of my favorite Catholic rock groups ( www.oremusmusic.net ), advocates using ONLY orthodox music during the Mass. . . .

.

 

[dranzal]

I had no trouble singing it once I learned the correct pronunciation. The struggle was learning it from scratch, teaching it to the group, and then finding out I had learned and taught some of it wrong, then reteaching it.
My group has a fairly easy time learning it from me once I’ve learned it. Especially the little kids who are sponges.
I told the group that if if was too much Latin to learn, they could hum the melody instead.I thought it would sound nice since it was sung unacompanied. On Sunday, no one was humming.

I really like the idea of alternating Latin and English verses

Worry not, Oh fearless leader!!!

I do know “O Salutaris Hostia”. They sing it and the Tantum Ergo every Wednesday at the Benediction at St. Edward’s.

Your ever-humble choir mate,
dranzal

 

[VAC]

You caught on, my internet lurking choir singing friend.

So, If you can keep us safe from the Latin pronunciation police, I guess that leaves me to dodge the rotten tomatos and eggs thrown at us from the crowd and CCD parents… Maybe we’ll try it sometime once I grasp what the words mean and figure out where to put it in the mass.

PS:from the other thread…I keep telling you if you want to sing that “This is Jesus” song, you’re going to have to come up with sheet music or a recording.

 

[RiverRock]

I don’t “hate” the Hagen/Haas stuff, but I’m just getting very tired of it. It’s like listening to your local oldies station. They only play the same 30 or 40 oldies over and over and over, year in and year out. When a Man Loves a Woman, Lord help me. I’ve grown as a Catholic during the past 6 years and I’d like to move on and hear something with more depth than On Eagles’ Wings, etc. I know there must be something else they were singing in the past 20 centuries but you’ll never know it at my parish. I’ve heard our organist hearing a comment he didn’t like and he just blew it off. He couldn’t care less if people like what he chooses and the Priests won’t talk to him, good organists are hard to get. So, we are stuck. Today at Mass, for example, the chior played a beautiful version of “Holy is His Name”, the singer was magnificent. I was in another place and time and the song brought me to tears. Right after that, Mass ended and they did “Little Light of Mine” for the recessional. The spell was broken. I was no longer at Calvary, but very suddenly and abruptly ripped back to our watered down version of a Catholic Church. A sappy happy clappy protestant childrens song! Maybe some like it, but it ruined the end of Mass for me. I’d rather if there were no music than this same old over and over and over. I was at another parish not long ago for an event, and they broke out with some Boogie Woogie piano song (I don’t know what it was), but I thought Little Richard was being channeled or I was suddenly transported to an airport cocktail lounge. It was a shock to me. Again, the spell of Calvary was broken for me. Luckily the next song was Ave Maria, sung by a good lady singer. I guess my problem is that the songs strung together have no cohesiveness, they are plucked seemingly at random and don’t relate to each other. I can’t wait to try a Tridentine Mass soon. I know a lot of people hotly disagree with me, but that’s how I feel. I know I will never leave the Church, but it’s crossed my mind to stop attending to “take a break” from the diet of aural twinkies being shoved down our throats every Sunday.

 

[Cat]

Children’s songs, although simple, have very profound messages. Don’t be a musical snob. A message doesn’t have to be surrounded with 16th Century High Queen’s English or even modern-day Queen’s English to be deep.

“This little light of mine, I’m gonna let it shine”–if all Christians took this seriously, the world would be changed in a day. Or maybe a week. But it would definitely be changed.

“Hide it under a bushel, NO!”–most of us hide our lights under bushels, televisions, cars, homes, job grinds, and especially, our sins.

“Don’t let Satan (puff) it out.” Like I said, we give in when Satan and his demons tempt us, and there goes our light.

“Let it shine til Jesus comes.” One of the mysteries of the faith. Come quickly, Lord Jesus.

You see, the little song has more to it than you think. I wouldn’t want a steady diet of “children’s songs,” but there’s nothing wrong with them. In fact, look around your Mass–in any given Mass, there are dozens of children. Why not give them a song that they can chime in on?

When surrounded by little children, the Lord said that the kingdom of heaven is made of us such as these. I’m not ashamed to say that I am a child at heart, and simple songs like this, with one profound message, will stick with me longer than a Latin tome that I don’t even understand. I think the same can be said for the majority of people ina churches.

I just finished reading a book about hymnody in the church, and to be honest, I can’t imagine most people in the U.S. having the vocabulary and comprehension skills to understand half of the “high” hymns that the author was encouraging a return to. We can decry the state of our education all we want, but it ain’t gonna git any better anytime soon. So why not sing songs in a language that people can understand? Yelling at a foreigner doesn’t help them to understand better. And criticizing Americans for their lack of English skills won’t help them to improve.

Start up an “Adult English Class” in your parish and watch how few people, if any, show up. It’s just not in the schedule on the PDA these days.

 

[dranzal]

You caught on, my internet lurking choir singing friend.

So, If you can keep us safe from the Latin pronunciation police, I guess that leaves me to dodge the rotten tomatos and eggs thrown at us from the crowd and CCD parents… Maybe we’ll try it sometime once I grasp what the words mean and figure out where to put it in the mass.

PS:from the other thread…I keep telling you if you want to sing that “This is Jesus” song, you’re going to have to come up with sheet music or a recording.

I wish I did have a recording. Once you record us singing it, I will.

 

[lak611]

I just finished reading a book about hymnody in the church, and to be honest, I can’t imagine most people in the U.S. having the vocabulary and comprehension skills to understand half of the “high” hymns that the author was encouraging a return to. We can decry the state of our education all we want, but it ain’t gonna git any better anytime soon. So why not sing songs in a language that people can understand? Yelling at a foreigner doesn’t help them to understand better. And criticizing Americans for their lack of English skills won’t help them to improve.

I really do not think that Catholics are too uneducated to understand “high” hymns. Many Protestants understand them and sing them. Most Catholics do not speak English as a second language. Most public schools still require Shakespeare in English classes (MacBeth, Romeo and Juliet, Hamlet). There is no reason why a Catholic should not be able to understand.

 

[Cat]

Here is a hymn quoted inHymns Today and Tomorrow, by Erik Routley.

Nature with open volume stands,
To spread her Maker’s praise abroad;
And every labour of His hands
Shows something worthy of a God.

But in the grace that rescued man,
His brightest form of glory shines;
Here, on the cross, 'tis fairest drawn
In precious blood, and crimson lines.

Here His whole Name appears complete:
Not wit can guess, nor reason prove,
Which of the letters best if write,
The power, the wisdom, or the love.

Here I behold his inmost heart,
Where grace and vengeance strangely join,
Piercing his Son with sharpest smart,
To make the purchas’d pleasures mine.

O the sweet wonders of that cross,
Where God the Savior loved and died!
Her noblest life my spirit draws
From His dear wounds, and bleeding side.

I would for ever speak His Name
In sounds to mortal ears unknown,
With angels join to praise the Lamb
And worship at His Father’s throne.

(Isaac Watts)

I don’t know about ya’ll, but “Here, on the cross,'tis fairest drawn, in precious blood and crimson lines” is a bit fancy for me, and I consider myself well-read.

Also, the line “piercing his Son with sharpest smart” is about um…well, I’ll be honest and say I have a vague idea, but I hope this question never shows up on a test!

I agree that Catholics are intelligent, but this is a different language, a poetic language, and not everyone speaks it or understands it.

Nothing wrong with singing stuff like this once in a while, but I think a steady diet of it would have a lot of folks sidling on up the road to attend the good ol’ Gospel train hour at the Assemblies of God church! It’s just a tad on the heavy side, IMO.

 

[Cat]

Here’s another one:

"Who is this with garments gory,
Triumphing from Bozrah’s way;
This, that weareth robes of glory,
Bright with more than victory’s ray?
Who is this unwearied comer
From his journey’s sultry length,
Travelling through Idume’s summer
In the greatness of his strength?

Umm…yeah. I understood every word. Didn’t you?

Again, this kind of thing stretches the mind and is probably good to include in Mass once in a while. But I think that if this is all we ever sang, I would go nuts! Talk about making people feel stupid! I would carry my laptop to be able to interpret! Who the heck is Idume, anyway?!

And there’s no need to sing hymns like this all the time. The Vatican has not forbad simpler hymns.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

I’m not sure anyone thinks we have to go to THIS extreme.

But good, solid hymn texts are a good thing.

The third verse of one of my favorites, “Those Who Love and Those Who Labor” says:

Let the seeker never falter 'till the truth is found afar
With the wisdom of the ages underneath a giant star.
With the richest, and the poorest of the sum of things possessed
Like a child at first to wonder, like a king at last to rest.

 

[lak611]

Here’s another one:

"Who is this with garments gory,
Triumphing from Bozrah’s way;
This, that weareth robes of glory,
Bright with more than victory’s ray?
Who is this unwearied comer
From his journey’s sultry length,
Travelling through Idume’s summer
In the greatness of his strength?

Umm…yeah. I understood every word. Didn’t you?

Again, this kind of thing stretches the mind and is probably good to include in Mass once in a while. But I think that if this is all we ever sang, I would go nuts! Talk about making people feel stupid! I would carry my laptop to be able to interpret! Who the heck is Idume, anyway?!

And there’s no need to sing hymns like this all the time. The Vatican has not forbad simpler hymns.

Most people understand the Douay-Rheims and KJV. Basically, these old hymns use the style of English found in those Bibles. This particular hymn you quoted references Isaiah 34:5-6.