Bad effects of Eucharist

[otjm]

Then from this we may just throw out history, Fathers, Doctors, Catechisms, Church documents, Tradition, because all we need is our own personal interpretation of Scripture?

And I have read the text, and I have presented my own positive reasons. But that is not what the OP is about.

One does not need interpretation of that which is plain and simple on the face of it.

The ones who are “interpreting” the matter are those who are trying to say that Scott Hahn can’t be right because there is no official Church document saying that what the Scripture passage says, is what the Scripture passage means.

Which is another way of saying that the passage, which appears clear on the face of it and in no need of “interpretation”, must be “interpreted” because no one else has (apparently) mentioned it at all.

We live in an age of better understanding of many things, and certainly psychology and psychiatry has explained that certain mental illnesses are just that - something which may be treatable through medication.

However, we have also become a highly secularized society, one which no longer believes in the devil, or in possession; and so psychology and psychiatry are abused in order to cover over that which we, as a secularized society, no longer want to give credence to - such as real possession.

So, according to secular society, possession no longer occurs. Priests who are trained as exorcists would beg to differ. But, on the whole, other than movies like Rosemary’s Baby, no one wants to hear what they (the exorcists) have to say.

And there is no reason to believe that likewise, someone receiving unworthily might become seriously sick, or even die. But is this going to get reported in the press?

Not likely.

And so Scott Hahn says we need to pay attention to this, as it is real; and now we have people going off saying it has to be “interpreted”, or the Church never taught this (except that it is in the Church’s primary textbook - the Bible), or that it only happened then and doesn’t happen now, or if the Church did not state that what is plain on the face of the text is exactly what it means, therefore it must not mean that…

It almost sounds to me as if some are frightened about agreeing with Dr. Hahn…

 

[cjforJesus]

Not suprising given that the Catechism lists “suffering, illness, death,” as the consequences of sin. (CCC 1264)

Vico,we live in a fallen world because of the sin of our first parents. Suffering,illness,and death are all part of the human condition.

 

[cjforJesus]

One does not need interpretation of that which is plain and simple on the face of it.

The ones who are “interpreting” the matter are those who are trying to say that Scott Hahn can’t be right because there is no official Church document saying that what the Scripture passage says, is what the Scripture passage means.

Which is another way of saying that the passage, which appears clear on the face of it and in no need of “interpretation”, must be “interpreted” because no one else has (apparently) mentioned it at all.

We live in an age of better understanding of many things, and certainly psychology and psychiatry has explained that certain mental illnesses are just that - something which may be treatable through medication.

However, we have also become a highly secularized society, one which no longer believes in the devil, or in possession; and so psychology and psychiatry are abused in order to cover over that which we, as a secularized society, no longer want to give credence to - such as real possession.

So, according to secular society, possession no longer occurs. Priests who are trained as exorcists would beg to differ. But, on the whole, other than movies like Rosemary’s Baby, no one wants to hear what they (the exorcists) have to say.

And there is no reason to believe that likewise, someone receiving unworthily might become seriously sick, or even die. But is this going to get reported in the press?

Not likely.

And so Scott Hahn says we need to pay attention to this, as it is real; and now we have people going off saying it has to be “interpreted”, or the Church never taught this (except that it is in the Church’s primary textbook - the Bible), or that it only happened then and doesn’t happen now, or if the Church did not state that what is plain on the face of the text is exactly what it means, therefore it must not mean that…

It almost sounds to me as if some are frightened about agreeing with Dr. Hahn…

One sentence in one verse and people create a doctrine about it.Scott Hahn is not part of the teaching magisterium and he may write what he wishes,though I do hope that the scrupulous avoid this particular writing.
This reminds me of the obsession with the verse in Genesis about Nephilim where so many are sure it is angels mating with humans to create some sort of hybrid monster.
You have to always take things in context of the whole.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

This thread is fascinating to me. People are litterally saying “surely you will not die”. I’ve never seen anything like it.

 

[cjforJesus]

This thread is fascinating to me. People are litterally saying “surely you will not die”. I’ve never seen anything like it.

Hoo,We are all going to die.
I too find it fascinating that someone could obsess over this.I hope no sufferers from scrupulosity read this thread though. I can just see the new threads.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Hoo,We are all going to die.
I too find it fascinating that someone could obsess over this.I hope no sufferers from scrupulosity read this thread though. I can just see the new threads.

Interesting. I would think far far more people suffer from complacency or ignorance about the Eucharist than scrupulocity.

I just think it odd that people are litterally echoing the serpent…
It’s almost comical

 

[cjforJesus]

Interesting. I would think far far more people suffer from complacency or ignorance about the Eucharist than scrupulocity.

I just think it odd that people are litterally echoing the serpent…
It’s almost comical

Hoo,Adam and Eve were forbidden to eat from the tree.They could not even touch it lest they die.They partook and they died,well not right away but you get the point.

The Eucharist is the Body Blood Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. If someone partakes of it unworthily I do not see that as any comparison to what occurred in the garden.
I find it comical that people could actually believe God would strike them dead on the spot for either not receiving in a state of grace or not even believing the Eucharist is the Body of Christ.
I am not advocating it by any means but just advise that Dr Hahn is not part of the magisterium and such an important teaching would be common knowledge.

In my opinion the serpent in the garden is the forbidden knowledge of the Kundalini spirit(Lucifer the bearer of false light). When one partakes of that communion instead of Communion with God they risk spiritual death.

Better to be slapped in the kisser than lie to your mother— my proverb

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Hoo,Adam and Eve were forbidden to eat from the tree.They could not even touch it lest they die.They partook and they died,well not right away but you get the point.

The Eucharist is the Body Blood Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. If someone partakes of it unworthily I do not see that as any comparison to what occurred in the garden.
I find it comical that people could actually believe God would strike them dead on the spot for either not receiving in a state of grace or not even believing the Eucharist is the Body of Christ.
I am not advocating it by any means but just advise that Dr Hahn is not part of the magisterium and such an important teaching would be common knowledge.

In my opinion the serpent in the garden is the forbidden knowledge of the Kundalini spirit(Lucifer the bearer of false light). When one partakes of that communion instead of Communion with God they risk spiritual death.

I don’t get what you are saying

 

[cjforJesus]

I don’t get what you are saying

I believe that verse in 1 Cor is about spiritual death and sickness. My opinion and also not part of magisterial teaching. peace

 

[Vico]

Vico,we live in a fallen world because of the sin of our first parents. Suffering,illness,and death are all part of the human condition.

That is true, we and were doomed to sickness and death on account of the disobedience of our first parents because we all share in their sin and punishment. However, besides this general doom, we have temporal punishment for our actual sins. Note two things, the death of King David’s son, for King David’s sin, and that in the Anointing of the sick, we may be healed of sickness (and as a result, death, for a time).

“Moreover the thing signified and the effect of this sacrament are explained in those words; And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man, and the Lord shall raise him up, and if he be in sins they shall be forgiven him. For the thing here signified is the grace of the Holy Ghost; whose anointing cleanses away sins, if there be any still to be expiated, as also the remains of sins; and raises up and strengthens the soul of the sick person, by exciting in him a great confidence in the divine mercy; whereby the sick being supported, bears more easily the inconveniences and pains of his sickness; and more readily resists the temptations of the devil who lies in wait for his heel; and at times obtains bodily health, when expedient for the welfare of the soul.” (Council of Trent, 1551 A.D.)

Many punishments for sin are given in the Old Testament, some shown below:

Exodus 20
5 you shall not bow down before them or serve them. For I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for their ancestors’ wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation[a];
Deuteronomy 28:
20 The Lord will send on you a curse, panic, and frustration in everything you set your hand to, until you are speedily destroyed and perish for the evil you have done in forsaking me.

Ezekial 5
5 Thus says the Lord God: This is Jerusalem! I placed it in the midst of the nations, surrounded by foreign lands. 6 But it rebelled against my ordinances more wickedly than the nations, and against my statutes more than the foreign lands around it; they rejected my ordinances and did not walk in my statutes. 7 Therefore, thus says the Lord God: Because you have caused more uproar than the nations surrounding you, not living by my statutes nor carrying out my judgments, nor even living by the ordinances of the surrounding nations; 8 therefore, thus says the Lord God: See, I am coming against you!** I will carry out judgments among you while the nations look on. 9 Because of all your abominations I will do to you what I have never done before, the like of which I will never do again. 10 Therefore, parents will eat their children in your midst, and children will eat their parents.[c] I will inflict punishments upon you and scatter all who remain to the winds.

11 Therefore, as I live, says the Lord God, because you have defiled my sanctuary with all your atrocities and all your abominations, I will surely withdraw and not look upon you with pity nor spare you. 12 A third of your people shall die of disease or starve to death within you; another third shall fall by the sword all around you; a third I will scatter to the winds and pursue them with the sword.**

 

[HelenRose]

Please don’t let the FDA find out. Warning labels on the Eucharist would be really annoying…

 

[HelenRose]

This thread is fascinating to me. People are litterally saying “surely you will not die”. I’ve never seen anything like it.

I have never heard of anything like that before either. It is a superstition and nothing else. If you realize you should have gone to confession before partaking, just go to confession and be forgiven.

 

[fred_conty]

This is the original question …

Does any one know of any Father/Doctor/Saint/Church document, made such a statement, that people physically die or suffer physical illness after receiving the Eucharist, when they do not believe(discern) it to be the body of Christ?

So far the answer is none.

To me that would be strange if people were dying and getting sick. I truely believe that this would make the headlines somewhere.

I have seen many things written about the Eucharist, including the effects it has on those receiving. But never death or sickness. And as far as I am aware, St. Thomas is the champion of the Eucharist, and he dosesn’t say this either. In all the saints writtings, there is nothing about this other than the damaging spiritual effects of an unholy reception. But not physical death, or sickness. St. Threse of Avila, St. Francis, St. Augustine, etc. … nothing.

Have you ever heard of your parish priest teach that death or illness might result from making an unholy Communion? Ever?

Is it in the CCC?

Don’t you think that death and sickness are rather important and if this were the case it would be stated as such? Physical death?

But there have been many a caveat that the bad reception of the Eucharist causes spiritual death and spiritual darkness.

So again the question is:

Does any one know of any Father/Doctor/Saint/Church document, made such a statement, that people physically die or suffer physical illness after receiving the Eucharist, when they do not believe(discern) it to be the body of Christ?

 

[Vico]

This is the original question …

So far the answer is none.

To me that would be strange if people were dying and getting sick. I truely believe that this would make the headlines somewhere.

I have seen many things written about the Eucharist, including the effects it has on those receiving. But never death or sickness. And as far as I am aware, St. Thomas is the champion of the Eucharist, and he dosesn’t say this either. In all the saints writtings, there is nothing about this other than the damaging spiritual effects of an unholy reception. But not physical death, or sickness. St. Threse of Avila, St. Francis, St. Augustine, etc. … nothing.

Have you ever heard of your parish priest teach that death or illness might result from making an unholy Communion? Ever?

Is it in the CCC?

Don’t you think that death and sickness are rather important and if this were the case it would be stated as such? Physical death?

But there have been many a caveat that the bad reception of the Eucharist causes spiritual death and spiritual darkness.

So again the question is:

So you did not read post #70?

Read John 5:8, 14:
8Jesus saith to him: Arise, take up thy bed, and walk. 9And immediately the man was made whole: and he took up his bed, and walked. And it was the sabbath that day. 10 The Jews therefore said to him that was healed: It is the sabbath; it is not lawful for thee to take up thy bed. 11 He answered them: He that made me whole, he said to me, Take up thy bed, and walk. 12 They asked him therefore: Who is that man who said to thee, Take up thy bed, and walk? 13 But he who was healed, knew not who it was; for Jesus went aside from the multitude standing in the place. 14 Afterwards, Jesus findeth him in the temple, and saith to him: Behold thou art made whole: sin no more, lest some worse thing happen to thee.

Catechism of Pope Pius X, No. 40-42:

40 Q. Why do we say: Deliver us from evil and not: From evils?
A. We say: Deliver us from evil, and not, from evils, because we should not desire to be exempt from all the evils of this life, but only from those which are not good for our souls; and hence we beg liberation from evil in general, that is, from whatever God sees would be bad for us.

41 Q. Is it not lawful to beg liberation from some evil in particular, for example, from sickness?
A. Yes, it is lawful to beg liberation from some evil in particular but always in bowing to the will of God, who may even ordain that particular affliction for the good of our soul.

42 Q. How do the tribulations, which God sends us, help us?
A. Tribulations help us to do penance for our sins, to practise virtue, and above all to imitate Jesus Christ, our Head, to whom it is fitting we should conform ourselves in our sufferings, if we wish to have a share in His glory.

St. Maximus the Confessor:
“Suffering cleanses the soul infected with the filth of sensual pleasure and detaches it completely from material things by showing it the penalty incurred as a result of its affection for them. This is why God in His justice allows the devil to afflict men with torments.”

St. Pope John Paul II, SALVIFICI DOLORIS

“While it is true that suffering has a meaning as punishment, when it is connected with a fault, it is not true that all suffering is a consequence of a fault and has the nature of a punishment.”

St. Basil (Lives of the Saints, Vol. 2, By Francis Xavier Weninger):
“Diseases are frequently punishments of sin,”

St. Augustine, Confessions, Book III, chap. 8:
“Your punishments are for sins which men commit against themselves, because, although they sin against You, they do wrong in their own souls and their malice is self-betrayed. They corrupt and pervert their own nature, which You made and for which You shaped the rules, either by making wrong use of the things which You allow, or by becoming inflamed with passion to make unnatural use of things which You do not allow” (Rom. 1:26).

 

[fred_conty]

Vico, my response is as before

Does any one know of any Father/Doctor/Saint/Church document, made such a statement, that people physically die or suffer physical illness after receiving the Eucharist, when they do not believe(discern) it to be the body of Christ?

And yes I do believe God punishes people for their sins which is what you said. But I have never heard it said of the Eucharist that it causes physical death. Punishment can come in a variety of forms, not just death or illness.

 

[Vico]

Vico, my response is as before

And yes I do believe God punishes people for their sins which is what you said. But I have never heard it said of the Eucharist that it causes physical death. Punishment can come in a variety of forms, not just death or illness.

Other than St. Paul?

I think there was not a dwelling on specific sins so much as serious sin in general. Certainly sickness, but for some people sickness also brings death.

 

[ProVobis]

Interesting. I would think far far more people suffer from complacency or ignorance about the Eucharist than scrupulocity.

I just think it odd that people are litterally echoing the serpent…
It’s almost comical

Not to prove anything, but I can’t seem to recall seeing my dad ever receive communion except on his deathbed, when try as he might, couldn’t receive even the smallest piece. He lived to be 91, for the record.

 

[808Catholic]

Not to prove anything, but I can’t seem to recall seeing my dad ever receive communion except on his deathbed, when try as he might, couldn’t receive even the smallest piece. He lived to be 91, for the record.

Yet your father recognized the significance of receiving the Eucharist even as he neared his end of days. Your experience with your father is not that unusual. Unfortunately, many people view the ultimate grace as too commonplace and don’t understand the true gift of God that it is. This is the “pearl of great value” that Jesus spoke of; some recognize it’s worth and give up everything to obtain it. In the western world, we think we have to give away our money, house, car, etc but it may be something like habitual sin that God asks us to give up so we may receive Him in a state of good grace. I highly recommend studying your Diocese’s requirement on indulgences in this Jubilee Year of Mercy. We can do so much for our future state of grace and/or for the disposition of souls in purgatory. God bless you.

 

[Vico]

Vico, my response is as before

And yes I do believe God punishes people for their sins which is what you said. But I have never heard it said of the Eucharist that it causes physical death. Punishment can come in a variety of forms, not just death or illness.

I am suprised that you are not familiar with St. Paul and the Haydock commentaries that speak of death (sleep).

1 Cor 11:29-30
For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord. [30] Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you, and many sleep.

Haydock Commentary
Ver. 30-32. Therefore in punishment of the sin of receiving unworthily, many are infirm, visited with infirmities, even that bring death, which is meant by those words, many sleep. But it is a mercy of God, when he only punishes by sickness, or a corporal death, and does not permit us to perish for ever, or be condemned with this wicked world. To avoid this, let a man prove himself, examine the state of his conscience, especially before he receives the holy sacrament, confess his sins, and be absolved by those to whom Christ left the power of forgiving sins in his name, and by his authority. If we judge ourselves in this manner, we shall not be judged, that is, condemned. (Witham)