Bad effects of Eucharist

[808Catholic]

I do not think Scott Hahn is part of the teaching Magisterium. He is an apologist and theologian…

The Catholic Church, as far as I know, does not adhere to that interpretation.I cannot find it in the Catechism either.

In the hierarchy of truths, because they all are true to be considered part of the hierarchy, what do you place as the highest? Bible, CCC, or papal decrees? When Jesus said, “This (my Body) is true food” do you believe He was saying it figuratively as a symbol?

 

[Vico]

I believe Dr Hahn is making his own personal analysis and it is not in the Catechism or part of the deposit of faith.

This is the biblical passage he is making his assumptions on. Read it in its entirety.

For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come. [27] Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. [28] But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice. [29] For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord. [30] Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you, and many sleep.

[31] But if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. [32] But whilst we are judged, we are chastised by the Lord, that we be not condemned with this world. [33] Wherefore, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. [34] If any man be hungry, let him eat at home; that you come not together unto judgment. And the rest I will set in order, when I come.

So there are references in the Catechism (see post #19) about sickness from sins.

 

[fred_conty]

As was pointed out, the annointing of the sick is to heal body and soul if it be God’s will. So the sacrament of annointing can have an effect on the body’s well being.

I suppose in reverse, the sacrament of the Eucharist could be taken in reverse and have an ill effect on a person who did not receive it in good standing. At least we know that the state of mind does have an effect on a person’s health for good or bad. So from that point of view it would hold true.

I could also be true that when a person is in bad health, if they have no reason or will to live, doctors say that this makes a great deal of difference between living and dieing.

There is wiggle room in this, but I just feel off balance in making a clear cut statement about it without some good solid references.

To me it is like Peter assigning death to a married couple who lied about their property. And today it would not be done this way.

I want to thank everyone for your interest and answers. Maybe there are others with something more to add

 

[PJM]

From Scott Hahn… star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m5/scmnt4.html

He says some get sick and some die because they did not believe that the body of Christ is the Eucharist.
I’ve never heard this taught in all my years of Catholicism.

I’ve always understood “sick and die” in the spiritual sense and not in the physical sense.

Does any one know of any Father/Doctor/Saint/Church document, made such a statement, that people physically die or suffer physical illness after receiving the Eucharist, when they do not believe(discern) it to be the body of Christ?

Dr Hahn is quoting 1st Cor. 11:13-30

The “sleep” Paul mentions means in this context SPIRITUAL DEATH: Hell!

1st Cor 11:23-30
For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread. [24] And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me. [25] In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me.[26] For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come. [27] Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. [28] But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice. [29] For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord. [30] Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you, and many sleep


My friend you may not have been taught it [shame on your teachers]; BUT this is a defined Doctrine of the RCC and solidly based on the Bible

 

[cjforJesus]

So there are references in the Catechism (see post #19) about sickness from sins.

Please read the last part of the passage Dr Hahn was quoting from. Everyone seems to be ignoring it. I posted it a few posts back. This will explain clearly . It is spiritual and concerns judgement.

 

[fred_conty]

Dr Hahn is quoting 1st Cor. 11:13-30

The “sleep” Paul mentions means in this context SPIRITUAL DEATH: Hell!

1st Cor 11:23-30
For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread. [24] And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me. [25] In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me.[26] For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come. [27] Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. [28] But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice. [29] For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord. [30] Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you, and many sleep


My friend you may not have been taught it [shame on your teachers]; BUT this is a defined Doctrine of the RCC and solidly based on the Bible

What Scott was referring to was a physical death. That to me is not so sure.

There is no problem with the meaning of a spiritual death.

 

[Vico]

Please read the last part of the passage Dr Hahn was quoting from. Everyone seems to be ignoring it. I posted it a few posts back. This will explain clearly . It is spiritual and concerns judgement.

Do you mean this?

Verse 30, it says, “That is why many of you are weak and ill and some have died.” Do you mean to tell me that St. Paul actually believes that because people were receiving the Lord’s supper unworthily – they were profaning the Lord’s body and blood – that some were sick and some were dead? You bet St. Paul believes it and teaches it, and so we ought to believe it and teach it.

The Catechism teaches the link between sin and illness, and the mortal sin of unworthy reception fits the description of sin and evil:

• “illness is mysteriously linked to sin and evil,”
• the “sin of the world,” of which illness is only a consequence

 

[fred_conty]

Please read the last part of the passage Dr Hahn was quoting from. Everyone seems to be ignoring it. I posted it a few posts back. This will explain clearly . It is spiritual and concerns judgement.

Is this the passage you are referring to?

29] For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord. [30] Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you, and many sleep.

If so then this is referring to spiritual sleep or death of the soul. This is what is generally taught.

 

[cjforJesus]

Is this the passage you are referring to?

If so then this is referring to spiritual sleep or death of the soul. This is what is generally taught.

No no and no. I am referring to the end of that chapter.The verse that comes after. I posted it a few posts back in post # 20. Look it up and you can clearly see what Paul is referring to.

 

[Vico]

No no and no. I am referring to the end of that chapter.The verse that comes after. I posted it a few posts back in post # 20. Look it up and you can clearly see what Paul is referring to.

1 Corinthians 11:31-34
31 If we discerned ourselves, we would not be under judgment; 32 but since we are judged by [the] Lord, we are being disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world.

33 Therefore, my brothers, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. 34 If anyone is hungry, he should eat at home, so that your meetings may not result in judgment. The other matters I shall set in order when I come.

Haydock Commentary

Ver. 30-32. Therefore in punishment of the sin of receiving unworthily, many are infirm, visited with infirmities, even that bring death, which is meant by those words, many sleep. But it is a mercy of God, when he only punishes by sickness, or a corporal death, and does not permit us to perish for ever, or be condemned with this wicked world. To avoid this, let a man prove himself, examine the state of his conscience, especially before he receives the holy sacrament, confess his sins, and be absolved by those to whom Christ left the power of forgiving sins in his name, and by his authority. If we judge ourselves in this manner, we shall not be judged, that is, condemned. (Witham)

 

[otjm]

I do not think Scott Hahn is part of the teaching Magisterium. He is an apologist and theologian…

The Catholic Church, as far as I know, does not adhere to that interpretation.I cannot find it in the Catechism either.

Not to make too find a point of the matter, but a) Scripture belongs to the Church and is from the inspiration of God; b) the Church has never, and likely never will, comment on each passage (paragraph, sentence, etc.); and the fact that he is not part of the teaching Magisterium does not mean that he has no insight.

Having seen what I have seen in almost 7 decades, I am inclined to think that he - Scott - is not specious or incorrect.

 

[cjforJesus]

1 Corinthians 11:31-34
31 If we discerned ourselves, we would not be under judgment; 32 but since we are judged by [the] Lord, we are being disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world.

33 Therefore, my brothers, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. 34 If anyone is hungry, he should eat at home, so that your meetings may not result in judgment. The other matters I shall set in order when I come.

Haydock Commentary

Ver. 30-32. Therefore in punishment of the sin of receiving unworthily, many are infirm, visited with infirmities, even that bring death, which is meant by those words, many sleep. But it is a mercy of God, when he only punishes by sickness, or a corporal death, and does not permit us to perish for ever, or be condemned with this wicked world. To avoid this, let a man prove himself, examine the state of his conscience, especially before he receives the holy sacrament, confess his sins, and be absolved by those to whom Christ left the power of forgiving sins in his name, and by his authority. If we judge ourselves in this manner, we shall not be judged, that is, condemned. (Witham)

I thoroughly disagree. FrHaydock was a Catholic priest and his personal writing do not have the same authority as the Catechism.If you can show me a Magisterial or Church council document I will reexamine the issue.

I think there is a much deeper meaning to this passage than God punishing people for receiving the Eucharist while in a state of mortal sin.

 

[otjm]

I thoroughly disagree. FrHaydock was a Catholic priest and his personal writing do not have the same authority as the Catechism.If you can show me a Magisterial or Church council document I will reexamine the issue.

I think there is a much deeper meaning to this passage than God punishing people for receiving the Eucharist while in a state of mortal sin.

I’ll try it again. The Bible is the ultimate Church document.

And the Church has not seen fit to give a line-by-line explanation, particularly where plain meaning is evident.

 

[cjforJesus]

I’ll try it again. The Bible is the ultimate Church document.

And the Church has not seen fit to give a line-by-line explanation, particularly where plain meaning is evident.

And I will restate my objections.
The verse is open to interpretation and it is not a closed matter. The Catechism is silent in attributing death or illness to receiving the Eucharist in a state of mortal sin.
Remember what Jesus said about the man born blind? Who sinned him or his parents?
The matter is open to interpretation and I think it has more to do with hypocrisy.

 

[Vico]

I thoroughly disagree. FrHaydock was a Catholic priest and his personal writing do not have the same authority as the Catechism.If you can show me a Magisterial or Church council document I will reexamine the issue.

I think there is a much deeper meaning to this passage than God punishing people for receiving the Eucharist while in a state of mortal sin.

Actually Robert Witham (1667-1738) made that comment.

The footnotes in NABRE 1 Cor 11 highlight the difficult translation:

14 [29-32] Judgment: there is a series of wordplays in these verses that would be awkward to translate literally into English; it includes all the references to judgment (krima, ⇒ 1 Cor 11:29, ⇒ 34; krino, ⇒ 1 Cor 11:31, ⇒ 32) discernment (diakrino, ⇒ 1 Cor 11:29, ⇒ 31), and condemnation (katakrino, ⇒ 1 Cor 11:32). The judgment is concretely described as the illness, infirmity, and death that have visited the community. These are signs that the power of Jesus’ death is not yet completely recognized and experienced. Yet even the judgment incurred is an expression of God’s concern; it is a medicinal measure meant to rescue us from condemnation with God’s enemies.

29 ὁ γὰρ ἐσθίων καὶ πίνων κρίμα ἑαυτῶ ἐσθίει καὶ πίνει μὴ διακρίνων τὸ σῶμα.

30 διὰ τοῦτο ἐν ὑμῖν πολλοὶ ἀσθενεῖς καὶ ἄρρωστοι καὶ κοιμῶνται ἱκανοί.

31 εἰ δὲ ἑαυτοὺς διεκρίνομεν, οὐκ ἂν ἐκρινόμεθα·

32 κρινόμενοι δὲ ὑπὸ τοῦ] κυρίου παιδευόμεθα, ἵνα μὴ σὺν τῶ κόσμῳ κατακριθῶμεν

33 ὥστε, ἀδελφοί μου, συνερχόμενοι εἰς τὸ φαγεῖν ἀλλήλους ἐκδέχεσθε.

34 εἴ τις πεινᾷ, ἐν οἴκῳ ἐσθιέτω, ἵνα μὴ εἰς κρίμα συνέρχησθε. τὰ δὲ λοιπὰ ὡς ἂν ἔλθω διατάξομαι.

 

[cjforJesus]

Actually Robert Witham (1667-1738) made that comment.

The footnotes in NABRE 1 Cor 11 highlight the difficult translation:

14 [29-32] Judgment: there is a series of wordplays in these verses that would be awkward to translate literally into English; it includes all the references to judgment (krima, ⇒ 1 Cor 11:29, ⇒ 34; krino, ⇒ 1 Cor 11:31, ⇒ 32) discernment (diakrino, ⇒ 1 Cor 11:29, ⇒ 31), and condemnation (katakrino, ⇒ 1 Cor 11:32). The judgment is concretely described as the illness, infirmity, and death that have visited the community. These are signs that the power of Jesus’ death is not yet completely recognized and experienced. Yet even the judgment incurred is an expression of God’s concern; it is a medicinal measure meant to rescue us from condemnation with God’s enemies.

29 ὁ γὰρ ἐσθίων καὶ πίνων κρίμα ἑαυτῶ ἐσθίει καὶ πίνει μὴ διακρίνων τὸ σῶμα.

30 διὰ τοῦτο ἐν ὑμῖν πολλοὶ ἀσθενεῖς καὶ ἄρρωστοι καὶ κοιμῶνται ἱκανοί.

31 εἰ δὲ ἑαυτοὺς διεκρίνομεν, οὐκ ἂν ἐκρινόμεθα·

32 κρινόμενοι δὲ ὑπὸ τοῦ] κυρίου παιδευόμεθα, ἵνα μὴ σὺν τῶ κόσμῳ κατακριθῶμεν

33 ὥστε, ἀδελφοί μου, συνερχόμενοι εἰς τὸ φαγεῖν ἀλλήλους ἐκδέχεσθε.

34 εἴ τις πεινᾷ, ἐν οἴκῳ ἐσθιέτω, ἵνα μὴ εἰς κρίμα συνέρχησθε. τὰ δὲ λοιπὰ ὡς ἂν ἔλθω διατάξομαι.

It is a matter open to interpretation.
If you believe that it is an infallible truth that is your opinion.
There are no Church council documents or Catechism entries that state God causes death and illness to those who receive the Eucharist in a state of mortal sin. none
I will go with my gut feeling in this as God is a God of mercy though also of judgement.
I think the verse is more about hypocrisy and discernment.

 

[Vico]

It is a matter open to interpretation.
If you believe that it is an infallible truth that is your opinion.
There are no Church council documents or Catechism entries that state God causes death and illness to those who receive the Eucharist in a state of mortal sin. none
I will go with my gut feeling in this as God is a God of mercy though also of judgement.
I think the verse is more about hypocrisy and discernment.

Due to original sin we now have bodily suffering (among other things).

We can merit (deserving reward or punishment) temporal goods like health and friendship, in accordance with God’s wisdom.

Catechism
2006 The term “merit” refers in general to the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment. Merit is relative to the virtue of justice, in conformity with the principle of equality which governs it.

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

 

[cjforJesus]

Due to original sin we now have bodily suffering (among other things).

We can merit (deserving reward or punishment) temporal goods like health and friendship, in accordance with God’s wisdom.

Catechism
2006 The term “merit” refers in general to the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment. Merit is relative to the virtue of justice, in conformity with the principle of equality which governs it.

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

We are not talking about grace but an act of God whereby he causes the death or illness of someone. That is not grace.

As I stated before you can believe it if you wish but it is NOT part of the deposit of faith.

 

[Vico]

We are not talking about grace but an act of God whereby he causes the death or illness of someone. That is not grace.

As I stated before you can believe it if you wish but it is NOT part of the deposit of faith.

Just to be clear, merit is distinct from the initial grace of justification.

 

[fred_conty]

As far as I am aware, nothing in the CCC says that a person will get physically sick or physically die if the Eucharist is received apart from being in grace.

I haven’t read that much of the Fathers and Doctors of the church to be any authority, but I would think that I would have had some indication of this from them because this is rather newsy of itself.

I haven’t read it in any kind of catechism.

And I don’t know of any Church documentation that has touched on this. So actually if it isn’t taught in the Eucharistic theology, then this would lead one to believe it dosen’t exist.

And that is what makes me suspicious that it is only about spiritual sleep and spiritual sickness.

And of course anyone is welcome to take another point of view since it has never been settled by the Church.