Bad music at Mass

[LarryM]

Lisa N:

Does anyone use the Taize book? I occasionally attend a Taize service and the music is basically based on Psalms, is very beautiful and frankly easy to sing. Most of the songs are two to four lines, repeated a few times. It’s easy for new people to follow along.

We are VERY blessed to have talented musicians in our parish. They are so inspirational.

Lisa N

We use Taize material on occasion, tho we get if from GIA songbooks.

Our entrance rite this Advent will consist of a cantor reading the entrance antiphon, followed by all singing the refrain ’Wait For The Lord’ from the Taize community…

 

[Fr.JLT]

Leave the parish and join another, because of the music???

We’ve now heard from the quintisential materialist Catholic.

This one likes Wal-Mart more than Target. How long will God stand for this from the American Catholic Laity?

– Fr. L.

 

[CatholicNerd]

Fr. JLT:

Leave the parish and join another, because of the music???

We’ve now heard from the quintisential materialist Catholic.

This one likes Wal-Mart more than Target. How long will God stand for this from the American Catholic Laity?

– Fr. L.

Perhaps this post will cross a line, but I must say that I was offended by your comment, Father. While I agree that it is a bad idea to go “parish shopping” sometimes it is necessary. Generally speaking, a parish that has a horrible music program (that doesn’t mean lack of talent, but lack of respect for the theology and rules of the Church) encourages other abuses, too. We have the right to attend a parish where the Masses are valid and licit. Sometimes, priests who carry out or support these abuses do so deliberately and will not respond to the gentle prodding of their parishioners or their superiors. Frankly I find the apathy of American clerics to be worse than the actions of well-meaning laypeople. Most Catholics that I know who go “parish shopping” do so because they do not wish to endanger their immortal souls by hanging around parishes that consistently offer illicit Masses and allow heresy to flourish.

 

[Fr.JLT]

Thanks for your reply. But it is so sad. So much have you become part of the materialistic ideology that you can’t take responsibility for yourself. Rather, you need to place blame somewhere else, be it the choir, the priest, the architecture, the ambiance . . . blah blah blah.

I just wonder what Saint Cecilia thought of the music in the Catacombs, where she was murdered, or her artistic surroundings or her role in worship? Please understand, that in a strict Church, you’d be excommunicated. Or, if your mouth went off in public like it did here, you’d just be killed by the Romans and lauded for you petty and superficial assessment of the faith and the Holy Sacrifice. You’d be held high as a reason to mock Christianity. . . .

If you lived elsewhere, you wouldn’t have a choice but to identify yourself deeply with a community in your soul, not just your superficial tastes.

Nice to be able to parish and priest-shop, isnt’ it? With any luck, that ability will be nullified very very soon. Or maybe priests will be able to parishioner-shop? Then you’d see how ludicrous, and fundamentally unChristian such notions are.

– Fr. L.

 

[CatholicNerd]

Fr. JLT:

Thanks for your reply. But it is so sad. So much have you become part of the materialistic ideology that you can’t take responsibility for yourself. Rather, you need to place blame somewhere else, be it the choir, the priest, the architecture, the ambiance . . . blah blah blah.

I just wonder what Saint Cecilia thought of the music in the Catacombs, where she was murdered, or her artistic surroundings or her role in worship? Please understand, that in a strict Church, you’d be excommunicated. Or, if your mouth went off in public like it did here, you’d just be killed by the Romans and lauded for you petty and superficial assessment of the faith and the Holy Sacrifice. You’d be held high as a reason to mock Christianity. . . .

If you lived elsewhere, you wouldn’t have a choice but to identify yourself deeply with a community in your soul, not just your superficial tastes.

Nice to be able to parish and priest-shop, isnt’ it? With any luck, that ability will be nullified very very soon. Or maybe priests will be able to parishioner-shop? Then you’d see how ludicrous, and fundamentally unChristian such notions are.

– Fr. L.

Forgive me, Father, but I am finding it very difficult to charitably respond to your post. Are you telling me that it is better for my soul to stay at a parish where the priest does not believe in transubstantiation or mortal sin than it is to seek out another one? Are you suggesting that it is healthy to receive mere bread and wine because of my priest’s refusal to use a valid formula of consecration or valid matter? Are you suggesting that it is my duty as a faithful Catholic to be ridiculed by a priest who openly defies the decrees of his bishop? Are you suggesting that it is my duty to not use the talents God has given me as an organist because my priest has told me “you are not needed or wanted here?” You know, it’s becoming increasingly harder to convince myself that I’m not switching Rites because I have issues with the way things are being run in the West…

 

[asquared]

there is a huge difference between music indifferently or badly performed, poor choice of songs, amateur musicians and cantors doing their best in response to a request for volunteers, and the petty annoyance this causes church-goers, and the situation of actual liturgical abuse, which can only happen on the part of and with the cooperation of the priest, who IS the liturgist. Liturgical abuse, in discussion on these forums, should be defined for what it is, blatant, deliberate disregard for and disobedience of the rites, words and actions specified by the Church for public worship in the holy sacrifice of the Mass. It is the priest who carries out those liturgical actions, and he is responsible for the validity and licitness of the Mass. If he is adhering to the rites prescribed, then no matter how much you like or dislike the peripherals, it is a valid and licit Mass.

Father is making a point that every Catholic must acknowledge, in many parts of the world (most) there is no such think as parish-hopping, because “roaming Catholics” have no other place to go. It is the situation now in many dioceses in this country, and will soon be the norm as this generation of priests dies or retires. Because we lay Catholics have failed, on a large scale for the last 40 years to obey our marriage vows, accept the children God wishes for us, to adhere to the laws of God and his Church, and to train our children to do so, we are in the beginning stages of a massive shortage of priests. the reality for our children will be priestless Sundays, and months or years lived apart from the sacraments. Do not be so quick to disdain what today is a privilege, because tomorrow you won’t have a choice.

 

[tom.wineman]

Fr. JLT:

Leave the parish and join another, because of the music???

We’ve now heard from the quintisential materialist Catholic.

This one likes Wal-Mart more than Target. How long will God stand for this from the American Catholic Laity?

– Fr. L.

Are you kidding. I’ve been to services where P A system was turned up so load and the music so gross that is was a physical relief when it was all over. Not to mention the overly theatrical posturing and show boating by the presider. Yes, I’d leave.

 

[mark_a]

Ella:

I believe we should be doing Gregorian Chant, as that is the Latin tradition. Consider the Eastern Rites and their music. We should be preserving the Gregorian Chant in the Mass. Just my opinion.

Are chants do-able by your average, tone deaf, tempo challenged Catholic?

Why can’t priests just choose to use recorded music?

 

[SeekerJen]

mark a:

Are chants do-able by your average, tone deaf, tempo challenged Catholic?

They’re certainly easier than trying to sing “Be Not Afraid” or “Here I Am, Lord”, or similar hymns that are really not meant for congregational singing, due to their awkward vocal ranges and odd tempo shifts. (And this is coming from a long-time choir member and cantor.) Give me “Veni Creator Spiritus” or “O Come O Come Emmanuel” any day over “Sing to the Mountains, Sing to the Sea” or “On Eagles’ Wings”.

LarryM:

Our entrance rite this Advent will consist of a cantor reading the entrance antiphon, followed by all singing the refrain ’Wait For The Lord’ from the Taize community.

This is what our parish is doing for the entrance rite this Sunday. We used “Wait For the Lord” for all the Sundays of Advent last year and it really set a tone of reverance for the Masses.

We actually use the Taize pieces quite frequently to great effect, both during Masses and at separate prayer services. They are easy to sing, quite reverent, and are often ostinato refrains (same lines sung over and over) which gives the congregation more time to get used to the words and melody, thus making them more likely to jump in and sing along.

 

[Sweetcakes]

I was raised Catholic, in the 50’s and got spoiled by wonderful music and I have to admit I’m a bit of a snob. I’ve gone to some Protestant services and some of it’s good and some of it sets my teeth on edge (but I figure sitting through it takes off some of my Purgatory time )

 

[Veronica_Anne]

Detroit Sue:

It’s those Haas/Haugen tunes. Those are some of the clumsiest, strangest, tone-deaf arrangements I’ve ever heard.

Shucks. And those are the only ones that I can sing.

I’m told that I’m tone deaf, myself. I don’t let that keep me from singing, and louder than at a whisper, too.

 

[Veronica_Anne]

CatholicNerd:

Forgive me, Father, but I am finding it very difficult to charitably respond to your post. Are you telling me that it is better for my soul to stay at a parish where the priest does not believe in transubstantiation or mortal sin than it is to seek out another one? Are you suggesting that it is healthy to receive mere bread and wine because of my priest’s refusal to use a valid formula of consecration or valid matter? Are you suggesting that it is my duty as a faithful Catholic to be ridiculed by a priest who openly defies the decrees of his bishop? Are you suggesting that it is my duty to not use the talents God has given me as an organist because my priest has told me “you are not needed or wanted here?” You know, it’s becoming increasingly harder to convince myself that I’m not switching Rites because I have issues with the way things are being run in the West…

Um… I think that people are thinking that this person who calls himself “Father JLT” think that this person is actually a priest of the Catholic Church.

I sure don’t think he’s a priest.

 

[chicago]

mark a:

Are chants do-able by your average, tone deaf, tempo challenged Catholic?

Of course, they are. They are generally pretty straightforward and simple. For example, the commonly sung version of the Our Father is such a chant. It is probably the most well congregationally sung thing you will ever hear at Mass.

Why can’t priests just choose to use recorded music?

They actually do that at my parish for the monthly Eucharistic Adoration. The music director came one evening and recorded live O Salutaris Hostia, Tantum Ergo Sacramentum, and Holy God We Praise Thy Name. Now, the old retired priest who gives the benediction just brings his boom box along and plays the tape.

I don’t know that they will be doing mix CD’s at Mass anytime soon, however. “For the opening song, we will be singing track #5!”

 

[Veronica_Anne]

chicago:

They actually do that at my parish for the monthly Eucharistic Adoration. The music director came one evening and recorded live O Salutaris Hostia, Tantum Ergo Sacramentum, and Holy God We Praise Thy Name. Now, the old retired priest who gives the benediction just brings his boom box along and plays the tape.

I don’t know that they will be doing mix CD’s at Mass anytime soon, however. “For the opening song, we will be singing track #5!”

Works for meeeee :dancing:

No kidding… I really mean that!! :clapping: :yup:

 

[chicago]

Ella:

I believe we should be doing Gregorian Chant, as that is the Latin tradition. Consider the Eastern Rites and their music. We should be preserving the Gregorian Chant in the Mass. Just my opinion.

Can you scat that?

 

[Deacon_Tony560]

Father is making a point that every Catholic must acknowledge, in many parts of the world (most) there is no such think as parish-hopping, because “roaming Catholics” have no other place to go. It is the situation now in many dioceses in this country, and will soon be the norm as this generation of priests dies or retires. Because we lay Catholics have failed, on a large scale for the last 40 years to obey our marriage vows, accept the children God wishes for us, to adhere to the laws of God and his Church, and to train our children to do so, we are in the beginning stages of a massive shortage of priests. the reality for our children will be priestless Sundays, and months or years lived apart from the sacraments. Do not be so quick to disdain what today is a privilege, because tomorrow you won’t have a choice.

Good point. Guess nobody has heard of the churches closings going on.

 

[chemcatholic]

Confiteor:

Limiting music to Gregorian chant might be going a bit too far, but Sacrosanctum Concilium and the new document on suggestions for the Year of the Eucharist both place an emphasis on Gregorian chant and polyphony. I would a hazard a guess that most parishes do not currently do so.

I hope I don’t come across as advocating the eradication of chant and polyphony, because I wish they were used more than they are. However, much beautiful and reverent music has been composed that is not chant or polyphony, and in my eyes it would be a shame to discard these in the process of cleaning up the bad music.

Peace

 

[CatholicNerd]

chemcatholic:

I hope I don’t come across as advocating the eradication of chant and polyphony, because I wish they were used more than they are. However, much beautiful and reverent music has been composed that is not chant or polyphony, and in my eyes it would be a shame to discard these in the process of cleaning up the bad music.

Peace

The Holy Father mentioned that in his Chirograph on Sacred Music. In fact, he didn’t just mention it: He encouraged composers to churn out music in the “spirit” of the Chant and the great polyphonic works from the Renaissance. Poulenc and DuruflŽ are two composers who did this rather well (ok, so they’ve been dead for half a century, but their works are still marvelous!). What the Holy Father does not want, however, is “profane,” that is, not fit for the house of God, music entering the Liturgy. Remember, we are to set the Sabbath apart entirely for God, so incorporating secular styles/many secular instruments is forbidden.

 

[mercygate]

Sweetcakes:

I was raised Catholic, in the 50’s and got spoiled by wonderful music and I have to admit I’m a bit of a snob. I’ve gone to some Protestant services and some of it’s good and some of it sets my teeth on edge (but I figure sitting through it takes off some of my Purgatory time )

Dear Sweetcakes,

Why should people who KNOW the difference, understand the difference, appreciate the difference apologize for “snobbery?” It is not snobbery. It is expertise. Moreover, it is an expertise nearly anybody can acquire (appreciation, that is, not high-level execution).

And, yeah. I offer it up, even if sometimes I choose not to join in the “joyful noise” of songs with multiple incidentals that change tempo three times in one stanza, syncopate, and sound like third-rate ragtime.

Note: Gregorian Chant is extremely difficult to sing well. It requires self-subordination – not a popular item in today’s market.

 

[Lisa_N]

SeekerJen:

.

We actually use the Taize pieces quite frequently to great effect, both during Masses and at separate prayer services. They are easy to sing, quite reverent, and are often ostinato refrains (same lines sung over and over) which gives the congregation more time to get used to the words and melody, thus making them more likely to jump in and sing along.

I’m definitely an advocate of Taize music. It certainly is based on scripture and as you mentioned, after a few rounds pretty much everyone can chime in. Few of them have huge changes in range or odd tempo and it’s easy to participate.

Tom.wineman, I guess I’ve only been subjected to overly loud music at the gym. Is it possible to diplomatically approach the music director and make some suggestions? No reason to suffer in silence. The music director may not be aware of how the music is projecting out to the gallery.

Lisa N (very lucky to have GREAT music in my parish)