Bad music is destroying the Church

[JimR-OCDS]

But you presented “express what people are feeling” as an ultimate criterion (without which it is dead, dry and meaningless), when in fact it is not, nor is it even taught as a purpose of sacred music. Suppose the people are feeling hot and bored, should the music express that?
.

Feeling hot or bored are physical feelings, not internal feelings, but they can be expressed in music, (Hot Town, Summer in the City comes to mind ) but, that would not be sacred music. Sacred music come’s from our hearts and souls.

People express their love for God, in music. That’s how it get’s written in the first place.

Music is an art, and art is the expression of feelings and thoughts, whether in a painting or in music.

The feelings and thoughts expressed in Sacred Music, are divinely inspired.

 

[DWPC]

2/3rds of the Catholics in the world, come from 3rd world countries.

Will their styles of music not be allowed in Mass? Will they have no part in developing Church tradition?

Do you think they use the OCP books in Senegal, or Sri Lanka, or Bolivia? You’re injecting a red herring. We have our culture, they have theirs. That’s not what this discussion is about. Its about bad music. Bad in musical structure, bad in singability, ambiguous in message, tepid in general acceptance. And its about the overnight abandonment of centuries of a highly developed form the defined the genre.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

2/3rds of the Catholics in the world, come from 3rd world countries.

Will their styles of music not be allowed in Mass? Will they have no part in developing Church tradition?

That’s not the point, as DWPC points out. There is a whole different concept behind incorporating legitimate cultural heritage as opposed to just letting whatever nonsensical pop “hymns” in Mass.

Also, what do the Malabarese or Coptic Catholics sing in their Divine Liturgies? I’m thinking probably not a whole lot of pop music or banal local stuff.

Our Sacred Music is a heritage that we’ve done much to throw away. It has absolutely nothing to do with taste, it transcends taste.

 

[Chris-WA]

Ideally that would be wonderful, but you still need a person in charge to run things. It’s the same reason we have specifc people in charge of other functions for the church. Music is a talent and a gift that not everyone shares and varies by degree. I certainly have not seen enough widespread talent for this to happen. (That’s a comment on the status of of our culture and cultivation of music…Perhaps also another worthwhile 'nother thread…)

Don’t get me wrong, there are many ways people can get involved, from organizing music, contacting members, paperwork, etc, to keep lots of people busy. There are things that almost anyone can do, but certain things that only certain people can do.

I’m not so sure it’s laziness entirely. The masses of people most often don’t have a clue as to what good or appropriate music is and couldn’t recognize a fantastic musician from a mediocre one except by subjective standards of style preference. (in other words, if they do what I like then they’re good. And that’s irresepective of any musical talent) That’s what we have in many cases. Can you consider that being low expectations? Most certainly.

I think many make this issue more complicated than is has to be. We don’t have to have huge choirs with highly talented musicians to have good, reverent, appropriate music at mass. I would much rather have an organ or piano with a single cantor than listen to a folk band or soft rock band made up of 30 people. People can somewhat excuse the quality if the musicians/choir are at least making an attempt to keep the liturgical music reverent and respectful, not loud and obnoxious (electrical guitars, drums, etc.). It’s more a question of what is appropriate for the holy mass than the quality. Let’s at least choose reverent sacred music first, then we can work on the quality!

You can have the most talented electric guitarists and rock drummers in your music group, but if they’re playing those instruments like they’re putting on a rock concert, it still is totally inappropriate for mass. That is much worse than having a less talented cantor and organist who at least have a clue that mass isn’t supposed to sound like a rock concert. My point is that the hipsters have taken over music in so many parishes that the music just plain sounds silly and laughable. They think that using secular music gets more people interested. But the oppposite is true. Using secular music takes away the sacred atmosphere of the mass, and often turns it into a joke.

 

[JButky]

I think many make this issue more complicated than is has to be. We don’t have to have huge choirs with highly talented musicians to have good, reverent, appropriate music at mass. I would much rather have an organ or piano with a single cantor than listen to a folk band or soft rock band made up of 30 people. People can somewhat excuse the quality if the musicians/choir are at least making an attempt to keep the liturgical music reverent and respectful, not loud and obnoxious (electrical guitars, drums, etc.). It’s more a question of what is appropriate for the holy mass than the quality. Let’s at least choose reverent sacred music first, then we can work on the quality!

I don’t disagree, That was a response to another poster and specific towards involvement of other people.

But it is tough to do Sacred polyphony with only one person!

Your proposal is perhaps a first step in the right direction however. Not all Masses (parishes) will have the resources for the perverbial “perfect” music. It’s reasonable to point out that there are, most certainly, limitations for a variety of reasons. And that is understandable. But as you say, the music should be appropriate as the first step. One should not compromise integrity for availability.

But appropriate music (according to Holy Mother Church’s standards) is not being fostered at a level and dispersion necessarily required. In many cases it is rejected and replaced for the innappropriate for lots of reasons. As such is the case, integrity is being supplanted by availability. (And often in ignorance). Supplanting legitimate forms for illegitimate forms creates even more problems as a result.

Joe B

 

[ComradeAndrei]

One positive first step would be for small parishes to get decent hymnals. I just got a copy of the Adoremus Hymnal and I am very impressed with it. It has all sorts of hymns that are fairly simple (i.e. don’t need a professional choir or schola to sing) and are all orthodox with no inclusive language butchery of old hymns etc. etc. Lots of good stuff.

Now, if your average parish had good hymnals like that (and I’m not advertising, there are other really good hymnals like the St. Michael’s Hymnal) then half the problem would be solved. No more secular songs that talk about Jesus, no more of the elevator music. Then you can work on practicing to sound decent.

Also, you don’t have to have people with music degrees-you just need people that give a hoot. At the FSSP parish I went to before I went to the seminary, they had a choir that sung rather well and all the folks were lay people. It was a matter of caring. They weren’t absolutely perfect, but blew any other “choir” at your average parish clear out of the water.

 

[mystified]

Have just returned from Mass. In fairness,I guess there is some slack allowed for a school Mass.
The young priest followed the NO missal perfectly, no ad-libbing.
But the entrance song, by Haas, was questionable, and the rap-like clapping during the Gloria and Alelluia was distracting to say the least. This was topped by a Communion song, “Yes Lord, If…” in English and Spanish. And the recessional song, I suppose it was okay for All Saints Day: a rollicking, handclapping rendition of “When the Saints Go Marching IN.”
I seem to recall–back in the olden days–we had special and appropriate music for all the Holy Days. Are all those hymnals now rotting away in a dump?:dancing: :clapping:

 

[AndyF]

"as aisle-dancing and numbskull jogging for Jesus choruses at Mass”.

I think he’s talking about “entertainment at any price” Protestant religions. Never seen this at a Mass. Where is this Parish?

Andyf

 

[JButky]

I think he’s talking about “entertainment at any price” Protestant religions. Never seen this at a Mass. Where is this Parish?

Andyf

Don’t know about this specific incident but our Cathedral had a “Gospel Choir Mass”. The “report” of the Mass was in our diocesen newspaper about the handclapping and dancing in the aisles. If I remember right the Mass was in celebration of Black History month…

Yah, it happens and they FEATURE it…

Joe B

 

[Jennifer_G]

Bad Music? It’s obvious they haven’t met our “new” organist!

Sounds like cats scratching chalkboard - at 150 decibles. People actually left because of him.

 

[Primitive]

The baby was thrown out with the bathwater when centuries of sacred musical were shelved. I have heard many talented guitarists and in my mind they all fail because the “Parish Band” does not invoke a sense of sacred. On the contrary, a cappella chant succeeds every time.

Agreed!
There are some rediculously gifted guitarist (Joe Satrani, Eric Johnson, and even Flaminco etc…) and I love to listen to them. And I understand there are talented guitar players at the liturgy, but they belong OUTSIDE the liturgy. But to put them and other instruments in the liturgy!? Get real!!!..
The Holy Mass is a time for a somber joy at the same time we are at Calvary with our Jesus. We should lift our hearts in reverent praise at the same time we are with Jesus at His Crucifixion and death. When I man dies for you you pay your respects and mourn remembering the beauty of his soul…When God through the person of Jesus dies for our sins, I would say our love should be far more profound…it is never good enough, but our duty is to give Him all that we have as if it our last.

The only instrument God created was the human voice (vocal chords)…Wouldn’t He want us to glorify Him with such a beautiful instrument.
This contempory nonsense they call “music” at the Sacred Liturgy…well…I’ve heard better music written for secular and occult reasons.

 

[Faithful2]

Bishop Robert Morlino of Madison, WI has written a great letter inviting dialogue about the type of music used during Mass. His letter can be found at madisoncatholicherald.org/current/bishop.html . I think that most people posting here will really like his thoughts.

He emphacises the real focus of the Mass and makes LOTS of great points regarding the role of music in the Mass. I could not add anything but agreement to his article. I could not even summarize it, it is so filled with great points.

PLEASE read Bishop Morlino’s article and spread the word to all who are interested in dialogue about the music used in the Mass!

Contemporary music that is not really suitable for the Mass, but which many people have grown to love, could still be used at Catholic socail gatherings, etc. Even Catholic Rock can be great for use outside of Mass, especially if it actively promotes a Catholic message and recognizes that Catholic Rock and Contemporary Music (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contemporary_Catholic_music) is not suitable for use during Mass. My favorite group in this area is Oremus Catholic Rock (www.oremusmusic.net)).

Please read Bishop Morlino’s thoughts on Music suitable for Mass! He has great advice to contribute.

 

[VociMike]

Bishop Robert Morlino of Madison, WI has written a great letter inviting dialogue about the type of music used during Mass. His letter can be found at madisoncatholicherald.org/current/bishop.html . I think that most people posting here will really like his thoughts.

Can you give us a date? I don’t see any such article on the link you supplied.

EDIT: OK, I found it: madisoncatholicherald.org/2006-10-26/bishop.html

 

[Faithful2]

Ooop, sorry – the link expired.
Now the article is at madisoncatholicherald.org/2006-10-26/bishop.html in the archives.
The date is October 26, 2006, and the title is
“Mass music: Prayer of praise, adoration”
If anybody still has trouble finding it, let me know, and I’ll see whether I can post the whole article or not.
God bless,
Faithful2

 

[FrDale_Peterka]

Hi ChrisWA
If you are from Washington State, check out the music minister at St. Barbara’s in Black Diamond. He is reverent, well rehearsed prepared, and plays well. --Guitar!
When it comes to Church music, I am afraid we get what we pay for. Professionals --especially those who are certified by their local liturgical commission-- generally bring competence, enthusiasm, and knowledge of the liturgy with them to their task. Amateurs rarely do.
As for the choice of songs, the new music being written for Catholic worship is of inconsistent quality. Find yourself a church musician who keeps up with his field, buy him a beer and listen!

 

[FrDale_Peterka]

Thanks, Faithful2!
Bishop Morlino’s article was short and to-the-point. He seems a bit irritated by “We are called, we are chosen” (Anthem) and “Gather Us In”. --He gives lip service to the notion of Christ-present-in-the-assembly, but he seems to reject any hymn that proclaims it or celebrates it!
Nevertheless, he deserves credit for ending his piece with a call to reflect and discuss the question of music in Catholic Worship! Mostly, we do not reflect or discuss. We react. Irritiably!
The new priests in Cincinnati were given a chance to choose the music for their ordination last year. They picked some great stuff --songs they had heard over the years --wait for it!-- at St. Peter in Chains Cathedral!
How is the music in your area? Go see and hear. Find out who is doing a good job. Find out where the good music is. A nearby parish? A parish in the next county? The next diocese?
Doing music well at Mass is hard work. Help!
Fr. Dale in Cincinnati

 

[Faithful2]

God bless you, Fr Dale, for making time for this forum with the faithful!
I am so glad that the dialogue on music has begun, initiated by Bishop Morlino’s letter to his diocese.

I am no spokesman for Bishop Morlino, I am just one of his flock. So I can only speculate on what Bishop Morlino might have had in mind in his letter.

But I DO live in Madison, and I can tell you that I really understand where the Bishop is coming from! …
Madison is a pretty secular place, full of highly educated people, a University town. It is pretty common here (what an understatement!) to see people adopting a relatively self-important and self-centered attitude which carries over into their participation in the Mass–
“I know it all”
“I will tell them how it should be done.”
“What’s in it for me?”
"Here I am, Lord (aren’t You lucky?)! …
“Any God worth His while would see things my way.”

We would never take that prideful and self-centered attitude anywhere else, and it’s particularly inappropriate during the Mass.
We don’t tell our doctors what to do or how to do it.
We don’t tell our architects what to do or how to do it.
For that matter, we do not enter the University classroom telling our professors what to do and how to do it.

We take a humble and cooperative attitude in all of those places, and we seek to learn from the experts.
That should particularly be true in the Church and during the Mass.

Your point about Christ-present-in-the-assembly is well taken, provided it is balanced with the REAL PRESENCE of Christ in the tabernacle and on the altar.
If the Queen, the President or even Brittany Spears is present at an event, we do not usually focus on ourselves. We focus on them.
During a graduation ceremony, we use suitable solemn music such as “Pomp and Circumstance,” not a Brittany Spears song.

So I am all for taking a humble posture when it comes to the Mass, and allowing the Church and the Bishops to teach us what is appropriate to use there. After all, the **Holy, Mighty and Immortal Creator of the Universe **is there on the altar, and quite frankly, some of the more casual recent observances and music do not always reflect that adequately.

I know that respect and awe for God is good. God is truly AWESOME.
I know that love of God, closeness to Him is good, even a certain familiarity is good.
I believe that we should look to the Church and to our Bishops to guide us to the appropriate balance in our attitudes.

In Madison, Bishop Morlino is very right in asking for a shift in emphasis. A shift is much needed here.
In other places, other Bishops might find that the balance is skewed in the other direction, and they have to work on loosening people up a bit.

… Oh, yes – your question about music in our Diocese –
The music is VERY variable, from parish to parish.
Our family does help with music, and is very involved.

I think that the key to the “goodness” of the music is not in the professional quality of the “performance,” but in choosing the suitability of particular pieces for the Mass. One organ or one piano and a congregation should be sufficient, provided hymns appropriate to the Mass are chosen. But which hymns should be chosen— that is what Bishop Morlino was addressing. The priest in each parish could give some guidance to the music leader or group regarding the hymns appropriate for each occasion. And the priest should get the guidance from his Bishop.

**In case it was not previously mentioned, not every hymn in the hymnal is appropriate for use during the Mass. ** …

…You are absolutely right about how irritable most of us get. We should try to keep our exasperation out of the dialogue, to help communication to go more smoothly. But I suppose the silver lining is that the exasperation shows that we are passionate about our Faith and about the Mass. In today’s gospel, we heard “So, because you are lukewarm, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.” Rev 3:1-6, 14-22. … So better hot than lukewarm! …

 

[mary_bobo]

I don’t know whether others would consider this bad music, but last Sunday I could not believe the recessional hymn. It sounded like an old Negro spiritual (they are nice and not my complaint), but the priest told us all to clap and he left down the center aisle clapping and all but dancing. Guess I’m getting old.

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

Hi ChrisWA
If you are from Washington State, check out the music minister at St. Barbara’s in Black Diamond. He is reverent, well rehearsed prepared, and plays well. --Guitar!
When it comes to Church music, I am afraid we get what we pay for. Professionals --especially those who are certified by their local liturgical commission-- generally bring competence, enthusiasm, and knowledge of the liturgy with them to their task. Amateurs rarely do.
As for the choice of songs, the new music being written for Catholic worship is of inconsistent quality. Find yourself a church musician who keeps up with his field, buy him a beer and listen!

Around here, most of the “professionals” seem to have some financial connection with the big music publishers, as does our diocesan liturgy director, whose concept of liturgy is often quite at odds with Rome. She does have an impressive degree, though. If I were a pastor, my hiring criteria would consider an applicant’s orthodoxy and knowledge of the faith before moving on to technical and academic ability.

Have fun in Black Diamond – here’s a little preview:

www.stbarbarachurch.org

 

[Faithful2]

If I were a pastor, my hiring criteria would consider an applicant’s orthodoxy and knowledge of the faith before moving on to technical and academic ability.

Have fun in Black Diamond – here’s a little preview:

www.stbarbarachurch.org

…**AMEN, ** Cavaiile-Coll!!!
:clapping::clapping:Orthodoxy and knowledge of the faith before moving on to technical and academic ability!:clapping::clapping: …I would rather hear a single croaking cantor who was faithful to Church teaching leading a beautiful sacred hymn, than a very polished contemporary song “performance” that is out of sync with our Church.

BTW, Black Diamond was very educational.

Thanks again, Cavaille-Coll !! …