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jbuck919
Guest
I’m a professional church musician who has had to make my (moonlighting) career with the protestants because it is not a question of standards in the Catholic church in the US–there are no standards. You cannot know how painful this has been to me all my life. I only see the pitiful situation deteriorating even further, while, for instance, the Episcopalians (Anglicans) uphold their own strong tradition.
The bottom line is that there is an aesthetic element to worship that will not be gainsaid, but which is practically ignored in most modern Catholic worship at the parish and often at the higher level. It has an absolute value as an offering to God of what is the very best we have. But in our egalitarian society, nobody seems to notice or care about that. Feel good seems all that matters, and that is self-defeating, because low level of gratification ultimately turns away people who wish to lift themselves up to the Lord, not muck around in some mud.
So yes, I would say that the state of music in the US Catholic Church at this moment is in fact a contributing factor to diminishing attendance and perhaps even faithfulness.
The bottom line is that there is an aesthetic element to worship that will not be gainsaid, but which is practically ignored in most modern Catholic worship at the parish and often at the higher level. It has an absolute value as an offering to God of what is the very best we have. But in our egalitarian society, nobody seems to notice or care about that. Feel good seems all that matters, and that is self-defeating, because low level of gratification ultimately turns away people who wish to lift themselves up to the Lord, not muck around in some mud.
So yes, I would say that the state of music in the US Catholic Church at this moment is in fact a contributing factor to diminishing attendance and perhaps even faithfulness.
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CarolAnnSFO
Guest
I like several different kinds of music for Mass, but I would definitely not mourn the passing of “cheesy folk groups”. 
Crazy Internet Junkies Society
Carrier of the Angelic Sparkles Sprinkle Bag
Pace e Bene
Crazy Internet Junkies Society
Carrier of the Angelic Sparkles Sprinkle Bag
Pace e Bene
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Cavaille-Coll
Guest
Amen! Stated as only a Scot can say it!
I don’t exactly know what the state religion of the United States is called, but the clergy are composed of psychiatrists and therapists, and the two sacraments are Comfort and Safety. This dreck has been seeping into the Catholic Church and her music for years, and it must be dealt with.
I don’t exactly know what the state religion of the United States is called, but the clergy are composed of psychiatrists and therapists, and the two sacraments are Comfort and Safety. This dreck has been seeping into the Catholic Church and her music for years, and it must be dealt with.
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DWPC
Guest
God gave us the Gregorian chant, Palestrini, Mozart, Schubert, Beethoven…and we give Him Marty Haagen and the St. Louis sound???
I certainly hope that author is correct. I dislike the contemporary music used in the Liturgy because its so s-l-o-o-o-o-o-w and d-r-e-e-e-a-a-r-y that it interrupts and disrupts the flow of one’s thoughts and prayers. Its unnatural in tempo and dissonant in musicality. “Lyrical” means something, and this stuff ain’t it. For me, it’s turned Mass attendance into an act of penance to be offered up.
I certainly hope that author is correct. I dislike the contemporary music used in the Liturgy because its so s-l-o-o-o-o-o-w and d-r-e-e-e-a-a-r-y that it interrupts and disrupts the flow of one’s thoughts and prayers. Its unnatural in tempo and dissonant in musicality. “Lyrical” means something, and this stuff ain’t it. For me, it’s turned Mass attendance into an act of penance to be offered up.
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arieh0310
Guest
Wow, well said jbuck…
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Chris-WA
Guest
Read the article–loved it! It was right on the mark. Our modern mushy hippie folk music is terrible. I’m embarrassed by it every time I go to mass (and by the way, I’m 35). I can’t wait until the current generation of hippie choir directors get replaced by people that appreciate reverent, holy, and sacred music. How did our music ever get hijacked by the hippies? How did we ever allow drum sets and electric guitars to be set up in our churches? Instead of using sacred music to elevate the mind and soul and take it with us to the outside world to elevate it as well, we brought in the secular music and turned the mass into the secular world. How backwards. What a disgrace. The hipsters from the 60’s and 70’s are currently the ones in charge in the local parishes. Please retire as soon as possible.
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arieh0310
Guest
I am 29 and just entered the Church this year from a very contemporary denomination (Foursquare) that had a full pop/rock band every Sunday.
Once I discovered the richness of liturgical worship and the sacred mystery of the mass I found the sentimental or high-energy pop to be totally inappropriate for Catholic worship.
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cheese_sdc
Guest
While I am all for competent musicians, I would not want to see the baby thrown out with the bathwater. As a guitarist for my parish, I (and the other guitarists) strive for the best. And often succeed.
I have heard some god-awful make-you-run-from-the-church screaming guitar playing too.
One point I’d like to bring up is this: one way to improve standards in musicianship is to pay the musicians! I know of only one parish in my area that pays its guitarists. Most pay the pianist, the flutist, any horn players, violinists, etc. But won’t take the time to find a good guitar player or bass player and pay them for their time and talent. (And, as many of us can attest to, a bad guitarist or bassist can destroy a song shudders).
If you want quality, you have to pay for it (generally).
I have heard some god-awful make-you-run-from-the-church screaming guitar playing too.
One point I’d like to bring up is this: one way to improve standards in musicianship is to pay the musicians! I know of only one parish in my area that pays its guitarists. Most pay the pianist, the flutist, any horn players, violinists, etc. But won’t take the time to find a good guitar player or bass player and pay them for their time and talent. (And, as many of us can attest to, a bad guitarist or bassist can destroy a song shudders).
If you want quality, you have to pay for it (generally).
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arieh0310
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The baby was thrown out with the bathwater when centuries of sacred musical were shelved. I have heard many talented guitarists and in my mind they all fail because the “Parish Band” does not invoke a sense of sacred. On the contrary, a cappella chant succeeds every time.
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VociMike
Guest
So if we pay the guitarists and bass players better, we’ll get more Gregorian chant and polyphony in return? In that case, put me down for a hundred bucks.
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Chris-WA
Guest
Can you explain to me why an electric guitar or electric bass guitar should ever be considered appropriate for sacred music? To me, those are very secular instruments, invented for rock-and- roll (which I like outside of church). Why would anyone think they are appropriate for mass?While I am all for competent musicians, I would not want to see the baby thrown out with the bathwater. As a guitarist for my parish, I (and the other guitarists) strive for the best. And often succeed.
I have heard some god-awful make-you-run-from-the-church screaming guitar playing too.
One point I’d like to bring up is this: one way to improve standards in musicianship is to pay the musicians! I know of only one parish in my area that pays its guitarists. Most pay the pianist, the flutist, any horn players, violinists, etc. But won’t take the time to find a good guitar player or bass player and pay them for their time and talent. (And, as many of us can attest to, a bad guitarist or bassist can destroy a song shudders).
I don’t think we should ever pay anybody for any music at mass. I’m an RE teacher. I prepare and teach a lesson every week. I would never expect to be paid for this. I do it because the church needs me to. I don’t expect anything in return. That is how a church should operate. This is part of my service to God and His Church. Now why should it be different for musicians or choirs? Every parish has musical talent somewhere within its ranks. Why should it not be donated freely without any expectation of reward?
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Chris-WA
Guest
I’m glad you get it. Welcome! We need more like you. Now explain this to the hipster Catholic musicians in your parish and tell them you want sacred music, not mushy folk-pop.
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johnnykins
Guest
Ever wonder why 75%+ of the “hipsters” are 50+ years old?
I hate to say it, but I have become convinced that the main problem with the music is the Music Ministers. Whatever taste they may have acquired in their training, they seem to immediately lose it when they become the music minister. Obviously this does not apply to ALL music directors, but it so clearly does to the vast majority that it is almost a truism - Catholic Music Directors have no musical taste.
Couple all that with the self-inflated egotism of the “artists” choosing the music for us poor benighted yahoos, and what you get is the garbage we have been fed for the last 40 years. There is one music director on this Board who has actually posted that we should all stop whining and just sing what’s put in front of us!!
I truly feel for the Music Directors fighting the battle to re-introduce appropriate liturgical music into the Mass - they have a terrible up-hill battle.
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JButky
Guest
I’ll answer this one. It’s because music directors spend many hours and in many cases these are part or full time jobs. If you play 4 or 5 Masses on a weekend, that’s a lot of preparation, especially if you have more than one choir…and have instrumentalists or other specials going on…not to mention funerals and weddings that take time out from regular money making activities. (rehearsals, music writing, Organ music preparation, etc…)
People have to eat. I’m a father of eight children (who don’t see me for Christmas for example because of the added masses.) You just don’t show up and do music. It takes a LOT of time and effort to do it right and you can’t support a family donating 20 or 40 hours (or more) a week to the church.
People don’t have a clue as to all the things many music directors have to accomplish in a week. Think of it as Social Justice…
Joe B
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cheese_sdc
Guest
The key phrase there is “To me”. That is your opinion only. No instrument has been banned as “unsuitable” for use in the Mass by the bishops. And wisely so.
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DWPC
Guest
Ummmm… no offense meant, but I think you’re missing the point here. The point is to effectively rid the Church of *liturgical * (vs. religious) music suitable for guitar and bass. The exception might be Bach, Scarlatti, etc. transposed for classical guitar.
That doesn’t mean they don’t belong in religious music, but just not in the Liturgy.
No hard feelings I hope…I play guitar too.
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Chris-WA
Guest
They haven’t been banned yet, but I think those days may be coming. What we have right now is a free-for-all where you can have rock concert pop masses–something never intended by Vactican II. Many wrongly interpreted Vatican II as a license to do whatever you want, but those documents in no way indicate this is to be the case. There are indications that our current pope is working to tighten the reigns on liturgical music, and you can bet the hipsters will fight it tooth and nail to the bitter end.
What did you think of the article in the first post by the way? Also, why do you think the electric guitar is suitable for mass? Just because it isn’t explicitly banned doesn’t mean the bishops want them at mass. Maybe that will have to be the next step.
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DWPC
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I’m 100% behind you. The problem is, as said in the article, that the status of liturgical music in the local Catholic churches has never risen to the level its traditionally held in Protestant congregations where professional organists and choralists are recognized as integral with services, and they’re the best the congregation can afford. Apparently its the same in the UK as in the US.
We had a smattering of chant, a lot of good latin hymns. But like the song says, we Catholics didn’t know what we had 'til it was gone. Now, after thirty years of amatuerish OPC pap, we get it. Boy, do we get it. Some of us anyway.
We debate here about Gregorian chant, but I’d bet that only a small percentage of American Catholics had ever heard it in church, even pre-VCII. What they heard was the sung responses at High Mass by the elementary school choir, with a hymn or two at Communion. Sure, the diocesan cathedral had all the musical reources, but pre-VCII, few American Catholic churches had pipe organs to hold a candle to their Protestant brethren’s mighty instruments. Most had “electric organs” just like the roller rink’s. The parish music director was usually a Sister Mary Michael, who’s competenance maxxed out accompanying 4th Graders singing “Frere Jacques” on piano. And her “choir” was a dozen 7th and 8th Grade girls.
Music simply was never a big deal with American Catholics, before VCII or after. Maybe its because the parishes were largerly ethnic. The Poles had their religious music, the Germans had theirs, and Italians had theirs. The ethnic nieghborhoods and parishes melted down just about the time when the NO Mass and OPC came along, and they simply filled the vacuum. The novelty of the folksie OPC genre became institutionalized. ( I also suspect OPC knew a very good thing when they saw the $$ for NO Mass and music books rolling in rolling in, and that they lobby the bishops as intensely as Exxon does Congress.)
My family has lived in a number of suburban parishes across the US and never did our church have either paid professional musicians or a respectable organ. Anyone suggesting an expensive organ or a paid musical dir. had to fight the School fund…and we know who always won that one. For Pete’s Sake, football uniforms take priority over liturgical music in Catholic parishes! There are exceptions. Our parish recently spent $100K to refurb our organ…into a synthesizer.
I consider myself extremely lucky in that I grew up in a parish adjecent to a seminary. For Holy Day Solemn High Masses we had the combined choirs of the seminary and our parish convent singing the litanies and Gregorian chant at Christmas and Easter. The real deal…and 50 years later I can still vividly recall those most beauty-filled moments.
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HailMary
Guest
Fr. Basil Nortz has an awesome article: catholiceducation.org/articles/arts/al0221.html
It is a must read.
The tapes can be bought here: opusangelorum.org/Tapes/tapeoffer.html for the more lengthy discussion.
It is a must read.
The tapes can be bought here: opusangelorum.org/Tapes/tapeoffer.html for the more lengthy discussion.
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