Bad News....

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Phemie said:
I’m sorry but he’s presenting himself as a composer of Catholic Mass settings.

I’ve only ever come across one priest who knew anything about music (he was forced by his Bishop to study and get a degree in music before he was allowed to be ordained) and would have been able to evaluate the quality of the music in his parish. All the others figure that if someone included it in a Catholic hymnal it has to be ok. We know that Mass of Creation appears in many Catholic hymnals in spite of the fact that several parts violate the rules of the GIRM.

In small parishes where the director of music is a volunteer, often with no formal music education, the problem is compounded. I’ve seen enough of that in the last 45 years.
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Actually, he presents himself as composing for both Protestant and Catholic, but I understand your point.

Again, though, he’s only doing so because he’s being allowed to do so. IF the Catholic publishing houses refused his work, he couldn’t very well claim he’s written for Catholic mass, could he? (Well, I suppose he could claim to do so, but I could also claim to have written an encyclical :D)

So…are you saying that one has to be studied in music to be able to properly evaluate lyrics, or music for that matter? How are we defining “quality”?

If a priest cannot ascertain whether or not certain lyrics are not consistant with Catholic theology, then what??? Only someone trained in music is qualified to evaluate the music?

Not sure if this is what you’re saying or not. If so…then every single person without a MA or PhD in music would seem to be unqualified to make an educated judgment on such music…bishops included. :confused:
 
Newbie2 said:
Yes, that’s part of my point. Why sell “Churchy” music when you can probably make a whole lot more in the secular feel-good, unitarian-like, there-is-probably-a-god-out-there-somewhere, nature worshiping, new age music?

I don’t see it likely that a protestant composer/writer is going to specifically target Catholic liturgy and at the same time try to subvert it with heresy. If publishers buy the rights to his music and sell it as acceptable liturgy, I’m saying the blame needs to be directed toward them, not the composer, that’s all.
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When one talks about heresy, though, exactly what type of heresy and if he’s a heretic (Martin Luther composed a few songs) is everything he writes heretical. Some Martin Luther’s songs were used in Catholic churches even before Vatican II. And don’t forget wedding music, Christmas carols and translations thereof. These are all copyrighted though most are in the public domain now.
 
Why is it OK to use J.S. Bach’s music in Mass but it isn’t OK to use Marty Haugen’s music in Mass?
 
Cat said:
Why is it OK to use J.S. Bach’s music in Mass but it isn’t OK to use Marty Haugen’s music in Mass?
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Why is it not ok to use Bach? His organ music in particular is perfectly fitting for church. Haugen? Not so much.
 
The_Curt_Jester said:
People did expect better with the new Mass settings coming for the new translation, especially since our Holy Father has been calling repeatedly for music to return to holiness of form, that is back to Gregorian chant! And he’s not being listened to, it’s quite clear.
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How many composers, who were commissioned by the CCCB or the USCCB, are known for their Gregorian chant or polyphony?
 
Spirithound said:
How many composers, who were commissioned by the CCCB or the USCCB, are known for their Gregorian chant or polyphony?
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Can’t say I know many.

Maybe they need to start looking harder. Try Corpus Christi Watershed.
 
Spirithound said:
How many composers, who were commissioned by the CCCB or the USCCB, are known for their Gregorian chant or polyphony?
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My question is: Why do we need to commission all these “composers” when we have such a rich treasury of sacred music to turn to? We’ve got more polyphony than you can imagine just waiting to be sung!

Many parishes have 3-5 “Mass settings” they use throughout the year. Guess what: The church has 18! And officially approved ones, that have stood the test of time too!
 
Spirithound said:
How many composers, who were commissioned by the CCCB or the USCCB, are known for their Gregorian chant or polyphony?
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I’m not aware of a single instance of the CCCB or USCCB ever commissioning a musical composition. There are the chants of the Ordinary which are found in the Sacramentary, and the chants which will be in the revised Missal, but as far as I know those were commissioned by ICEL and are not the work of individual composers.

Composers work in a free market. If people like their music, publishers will want to sell it to them. If publishers want to sell a composer’s music, they will pay the composer for the right to do so. That’s how it works. This fantasy people cling to that Marty Haugen is sitting at the top of the food chain deciding what to inflict next on his unwilling subjects is for the birds.
 
MarkThompson said:
I’m not aware of a single instance of the CCCB or USCCB ever commissioning a musical composition. There are the chants of the Ordinary which are found in the Sacramentary, and the chants which will be in the revised Missal, but as far as I know those were commissioned by ICEL and are not the work of individual composers.

Composers work in a free market. If people like their music, publishers will want to sell it to them. If publishers want to sell a composer’s music, they will pay the composer for the right to do so. That’s how it works. This fantasy people cling to that Marty Haugen is sitting at the top of the food chain deciding what to inflict next on his unwilling subjects is for the birds.
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True. It’s OCP and GIA that are doing that.
 
MarkThompson said:
This fantasy people cling to that Marty Haugen is sitting at the top of the food chain deciding what to inflict next on his unwilling subjects is for the birds.
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Great. Now we have to come up with some other excuse for our unhappiness. 😉
 
The_Curt_Jester said:
True. It’s OCP and GIA that are doing that.
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No, OCP and GIA are attempting to publish things that people want to buy. In a monopolistic market, the monopoly holder can force people to either buy what he is selling, or buy nothing at all. But church music publication is a free market, and there are plenty of competitors and the barriers to entry are low. If lots of people wanted traditional-style music, then you would see sales of things like the Adoremus Hymnal, St. Gregory Hymnal, and Parish Book of Chant go way up, and sales of OCP’s Glory & Praise and similar products plunge. To retain its viability in the market, OCP would then sell more products heavy in traditional hymnody and chant.

Oh, that hasn’t happened?
 
MarkThompson said:
No, OCP and GIA are attempting to publish things that people want to buy. In a monopolistic market, the monopoly holder can force people to either buy what he is selling, or buy nothing at all. But church music publication is a free market, and there are plenty of competitors and the barriers to entry are low. If lots of people wanted traditional-style music, then you would see sales of things like the Adoremus Hymnal, St. Gregory Hymnal, and Parish Book of Chant go way up, and sales of OCP’s Glory & Praise and similar products plunge. To retain its viability in the market, OCP would then sell more products heavy in traditional hymnody and chant.

Oh, that hasn’t happened?
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OCP and GIA actually cater to the conservatives by putting token pieces in their hymnals to various extents depending on which one it is. However, much of the wording has been changed. People who do not pay attention will not notice, however.

But in general, GIA and OCP can control what is out there because they do have the power of marketing. They are the most-known of music publishers and people naturally gravitate toward them for ease of use. Most people think that because something comes from GIA or OCP that it is okay.
 
TheMc said:
Yes, but his music is very fitting for church, and I have not seen one heretical thing from him yet.
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I guess this was because Mr. Haugen’s work was rejected ALSO because of him not being Catholic in one of the posts (#13). And I think this is also why Newbie2 is a bit indignant.
 
MarkThompson said:
I’m not aware of a single instance of the CCCB or USCCB ever commissioning a musical composition.
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It’s my understanding, from talking with a person intimately involved in the preparation of Celebrate in Song, that the CCCB did in fact commission the three non-chant Mass settings included in that supplement to the CBW III.
 
TheMc said:
My question is: Why do we need to commission all these “composers” when we have such a rich treasury of sacred music to turn to? We’ve got more polyphony than you can imagine just waiting to be sung!

Many parishes have 3-5 “Mass settings” they use throughout the year. Guess what: The church has 18! And officially approved ones, that have stood the test of time too!
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Do they work for the new English translation?
 
choliks said:
I guess this was because Mr. Haugen’s work was rejected ALSO because of him not being Catholic in one of the posts (#13). And I think this is also why Newbie2 is a bit indignant.
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Yes!

He gets slammed for his music not being “Catholic”, but he is not Catholic. That seems very petty to me. It’s like critisizing a penguin for not being able to soar like an eagle. 😉
 
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