Bad News....

[Sarabande]

Yes!

He gets slammed for his music not being “Catholic”, but he is not Catholic. That seems very petty to me. It’s like critisizing a penguin for not being able to soar like an eagle.

I don’t have a problem with using music composed by Protestants as long as it is appropriate for the liturgy. I agree to criticize a composer because he/she is Protestant doesn’t make sense. But I have no problem criticizing based on compositional ability and if the text is not appropriate for Catholic liturgy. Personally, I think most of Haugen’s compositions are mediocre at best, especially compared to someone like Bach.

As others have mentioned, though, he is going to continue to sell his music as long as people are willing to buy it. If Catholic publishers are going to accept what he produces and then promote it to music directors and musicians in Catholic parishes, why would he stop? And I also agree that he is more than likely not sitting there thinking up ways to be heretical, etc.

I liken it to paintings by Thomas Kincade. He or his business associates have been successful creating a market for his work. On the surface, his works are nice and homey. He does have ability and uses the similar fundamentals, but based on his output, the depth and mastery of technique and talent is not that of someone like Thomas Eakins or Andrew Wyeth or Mary Cassatt, just to compare with other American artists. For me this is the case for Haugen. He uses the same compositional fundamentals, but falls short of the mastery displayed by other Protestant composers such as Bach, Vaughan-Williams (although I think he was Agnostic), Handel, Holst and the like. But both Haugen and Kincade have been very successful in selling and promoting their products to their target audiences.

For me, if I were to use new music written by living composers for liturgy, I want them to be en par with the masters leading all the way up to the 21st century. I know that there are master composers out there today, yet their music isn’t being accepted in the more “popular” publishing houses. That keeps many music directors who are looking for more in terms of the compositions out there from “discovering” this newer music. And the music doesn’t have to be complex. As I’ve said before, a good composer can create beauty and inspiration with a simple piece of music.

 

[Cat]

Yes, but his music is very fitting for church, and I have not seen one heretical thing from him yet.

Apparently a lot of priests say the same thing about Haugen, since so very many Catholic parishes in the U.S. use his Mass setting.

Are all of these priests wrong?

 

[jwinch2]

Apparently a lot of priests say the same thing about Haugen, since so very many Catholic parishes in the U.S. use his Mass setting.

Are all of these priests wrong?

Not to mention Bishops. I was at our Diocesan Cathedral for Mass yesterday and they used a bunch of Haugen’s stuff. As it was the Missioning Mass for all of those who just completed RCIA as well as the Feast of the Ascension, there were probably a dozen or so priests in addition to the Bishop. No one seemed to have a problem with the music being heretical in any way.

Furthermore, people who are criticizing Haugen because he is not J.S. Bach need to get a grip. That’s like criticizing someone who is a journeyman player in the NBA today because he isn’t Michael Jordan. There are only so many Bach’s that are going to come around.

At the end of the day people are buying his compositions and using them. Unless that changes why in the world would he stop? There are always critics and no one’s music appeals to everyone (I know people who don’t like Bach ), but Diocese all over the country are buying his music and using it to celebrate the Mass. With that being said, someone must like it and thing it is worthy to be used in the Mass. If people here do not, that is their perogative. However, I think people on this forum ought to take a hard look in the mirror and recognize that the opinions expressed here on CAF (include mine sometimes) do not represent the majority opinion of faithful catholics throughout the country.

 

[Sarabande]

Furthermore, people who are criticizing Haugen because he is not J.S. Bach need to get a grip. That’s like criticizing someone who is a journeyman player in the NBA today because he isn’t Michael Jordan. There are only so many Bach’s that are going to come around.

I agree that there are not that many Bach’s out there. But I don’t even think Haugen’s music is even en par with that of someone who would be a journeyman player in the NBA. Because, let’s face it, if you make it that high in the NBA based on your ability, then you are pretty darn good. There are plenty of composers, past and present who are of that level, but I don’t think of Haugen to be of that level. Bach’s children, for instance, although extremely talented, didn’t have the genius of their father in composition. Yet, their compositional abilities were excellent and beautiful. They probably would have been at the level of a journeyman or perhaps slightly higher.

Edit: That said, I think Haugen’s music is light years better than some of the other stuff on that link.

 

[jwinch2]

I agree that there are not that many Bach’s out there. But I don’t even think Haugen’s music is even en par with that of someone who would be a journeyman player in the NBA. Because, let’s face it, if you make it that high in the NBA based on your ability, then you are pretty darn good. There are plenty of composers, past and present who are of that level, but I don’t think of Haugen to be of that level. Bach’s children, for instance, although extremely talented, didn’t have the genius of their father in composition. Yet, their compositional abilities were excellent and beautiful. They probably would have been at the level of a journeyman or perhaps slightly higher.

Edit: That said, I think Haugen’s music is light years better than some of the other stuff on that link.

Haugen is working as a professional composer and earning a good living doing it. That was the basis of my analogy.

I also agree you on Haugen compared to some of the other stuff on that link. For example, I happen to like Haugen’s Sanctus as I feel it strikes just the right chord for that moment in the Mass. However, there are some of his other pieces I don’t like nearly as well. I heard one on you tube the other day that sounded like West Side Story rather than the Gloria, complete with snapping of their fingers. I found it to be atrocious, but I guess someone must like it.

 

[Sarabande]

Haugen is working as a professional composer and earning a good living doing it. That was the basis of my analogy.

When based on how he’s earning a living, I understand that point. He has found a market who enjoys his music or at least is promoting it for others to like, which is how a lot of products are sold. I was looking at more from a musician’s standpoint based on technical level and mastery.

When I talk “shop” with other opera colleagues of mine, we sometimes don’t understand how some opera singers are as popular as they are. We recognize that they have talent and would be very good as “house singers”, but not at the level that we would expect someone to perform at the Met or La Scala, for instance. Yet, they are performing at places like that. (FWIW - I’m humble enough to know my abilities and I don’t think I’m La Scala or Met material, although I’d love to sing there one day if I can master my skills enough. ) But, like in many of the arts, they had the right connections, luck (most importantly) and people promoting them. Actually, at the same time, I am happy for them as well as for Haugen, Kincade and others like them to have had this fortune, but I can still disagree with the level of their abilities.

I also agree you on Haugen compared to some of the other stuff on that link. For example, I happen to like Haugen’s Sanctus as I feel it strikes just the right chord for that moment in the Mass. However, there are some of his other pieces I don’t like nearly as well. I heard one on you tube the other day that sounded like West Side Story rather than the Gloria, complete with snapping of their fingers. I found it to be atrocious, but I guess someone must like it.

Ok… I LOVE West Side Story. Maria is one of my favorite roles I’ve ever sung (and I’m not a big musical fan), but yes, hearing something like that at mass, would be pretty atrocious.

I can just picture the Sanctus being set to “Cool” from WWS.

 

[TheMc]

Apparently a lot of priests say the same thing about Haugen, since so very many Catholic parishes in the U.S. use his Mass setting.

Are all of these priests wrong?

If that’s what they are saying, then yes, they are wrong. The MOC is illicit to use, because in multiple places, it does not follow the text!!! What do people not understand about this!? It doesn’t matter how many people use it, it’s still wrong.

 

[929dad]

GIRM paragraph 41 tells us:
All other things being equal, Gregorian chant holds pride of place because it is proper to
the Roman Liturgy. Other types of sacred music, in particular polyphony, are in no way
excluded, provided that they correspond to the spirit of the liturgical action and that they foster
the participation of all the faithful.

Just because a particular song or acclamation isn’t what you would personally choose, as long as it meets the requirements state above, congregations should be free to purchase the music and use it.

That being said, I’m glad that Haugen’s new edition of the Mass of Creation has more fidelity to the texts. To say that we shouldn’t sing his music because he isn’t JS Bach is absolutely absurd, btw. There aren’t 5 composers in the history of music who approach his talent and output. Just because God gave me less talent as a composer doesn’t mean that my compositions aren’t worthy of being used at Mass.

I read this blog blog.adw.org/2011/02/walking-in-the-wide-church-and-staying-within-the-guard-rails/ a few months ago and the idea has stuck with me. Perhaps we might find the ability to agree that we can all worship the SAME GOD, the unchanging, unchangeable Triune God with the vastness of the musical gifts the Holy Spirit as inspired in composers from all time periods.

 

[TheMc]

Just because a particular song or acclamation isn’t what you would personally choose, as long as it meets the requirements state above, congregations should be free to purchase the music and use it.

But it does not follow the text word for word, making it illicit to use.

 

[Sarabande]

But it does not follow the text word for word, making it illicit to use.

I believe the revised 2010 edition does follow the text correctly. The original, though, did not.

 

[TheMc]

I believe the revised 2010 edition does follow the text correctly. The original, though, did not.

I know the original didn’t. Although part of me wishes the new one didn’t, because it’s much easier to argue against that way.

 

[ProVobis]

When based on how he’s earning a living, I understand that point. He has found a market who enjoys his music or at least is promoting it for others to like, which is how a lot of products are sold. I was looking at more from a musician’s standpoint based on technical level and mastery.

Sometimes it takes years, perhaps centuries, to fully appreciate the art and mastery in some of the written music. Bach was fortunate in one sense, though, that the words of the Mass he wrote for haven’t changed. The modern composers (I’m also thinking of Proulx here too) who compose from the changing translations of the Mass probably won’t be as fully appreciated for the quality of their work if at all. However, I don’t think anyone cannot see that the ICEL does offer them (and themselves) a little bit of job security in translation revisions.

 

[Sarabande]

Sometimes it takes years, perhaps centuries, to fully appreciate the art and mastery in some of the written music. Bach was fortunate in one sense, though, that the words of the Mass he wrote for haven’t changed. The modern composers (I’m also thinking of Proulx here too) who compose from the changing translations of the Mass probably won’t be as fully appreciated for the quality of their work if at all. However, I don’t think anyone cannot see that the ICEL does offer them (and themselves) a little bit of job security in translation revisions.

That is true about the job security.

I personally don’t base the quality and technical mastery of a composition on the text/translations used. If I’m looking at a piece of music in terms of appropriateness for liturgy, then I will take that into account. But then that becomes more about something being appropriate and inappropriate rather than technical mastery. For instance, I think Mozart’s Great Mass in C is magnificent, but in most cases, not too appropriate for mass. Some movements could be refined a bit and sound decent on just the organ alone, but movements like the “Laudamus Te” (which is one of my favorites to sing because of its beauty and technical challenges) could understandably be argued as inappropriate due to the coloratura involved for the voice. I know that others would not agree with me and the one part of me would be with them because it is so joyous. But when I have to be honest with myself and what I view in the Church’s documents on music, it really wouldn’t be appropriate because it could easily be turned into a secular concert aria because of the coloratura.

There are composers today which I do think deserve accolades. I’ve also heard/sung works done by music directors at individual parishes which are so much more masterful and beautiful than what is actually being formally published and sold. I think Proulx was very good at what he did. Gelineau was another and I’m looking forward to seeing his revised psalms with the proper text because they really gorgeous. I also appreciate and enjoy Leo Nestor’s and Jan Vermulst’s works and even liked some of Angelo Della Picca’s music.

What has always struck me as strange was how so many of that first wave of composers after the change to the vernacular didn’t try to reset their masses or write more when the revision was made in the 70s. From what I’ve seen and from what I’ve been told there was some beautiful music produced at that time. Somehow, I can’t believe that they all just decided to no longer write liturgical music. Part of me believes that there is an influence in the publishing houses of who they wanted to promote and sell especially in the 70s during the height of folk-like church music. I know that is the case in other publishing venues as well as other parts of the arts.

 

[jwinch2]

But it does not follow the text word for word, making it illicit to use.

Neither does the NAB…

 

[archangel04]

I know. He isn’t even Catholic!!

Exactly! It makes more sence to give younger talented Catholics a chance to write Catholic music. But what ever, I will just stick to the EF.

 

[TheMc]

Exactly! It makes more sence to give younger talented Catholics a chance to write Catholic music.

Yeah! Someone like Kevin Allen.

 

[jwinch2]

Yeah! Someone like Kevin Allen.

Well, tell him to get on it! That was beautiful.

 

[Erich]

From MusicForMass.org (emphasis mine):

The Lyric Mass Suite is an ongoing work in progress. It is a suite, or collection, of interconnected musical settings of the English Mass texts, for a congregation, with optional SAB vocal ensemble. Most of these settings were conceived with modular melodic motifs which at most require only minor re-sequencing to be able to support both the approved 1973 ICEL text and the newly approved 2008 ICEL text. The versions published here are strictly limited to only the USCCB approved music settings of the 1973 ICEL texts. When approved by the USCCB, the other versions of the same musical settings set to the new 2008 texts will also be available here.

 

[MarkThompson]

If that’s what they are saying, then yes, they are wrong. The MOC is illicit to use, because in multiple places, it does not follow the text!!! What do people not understand about this!? It doesn’t matter how many people use it, it’s still wrong.

But it does not follow the text word for word, making it illicit to use.

Frankly, this is a very 21st-century understanding of what the requirements are. In 1975 or 1985 nobody – bishops, bishops’ conferences, priests, composers, you name it – thought that a few judicious edits to the texts of the ordinary would be out of line. Nor can one really say “they were wrong,” since the people in charge of interpreting what was right and what was wrong were perfectly comfortable allowing things like the Saint Louis Jesuits Mass or Missa Bossa Nova. The fact is that our understanding of what the rules ought to be has evolved, but still there are very few people (outside this Liturgy & Sacraments forum) to whom it is so manifestly obvious that something like “Jesus, Lamb of God …” in the Agnus Dei is a liturgical abuse. As late as 2007, 88% of American bishops approved Sing to the Lord, with its directive that substituting different Christological invocations for “Lamb of God” in the Agnus is fine – even though, of course, nothing of the sort is to be found in the Missale itself.

The view expressed here (“does not follow the text word for word, making it illicit”) is actually not correct, since things like responsorial Glorias do not strictly follow the text word for word, but are perfectly licit. Even setting those cases aside, it is one reasonable interpretation of how the rules cash out – and to be honest I agree with this interpretation – but it is not the only reasonable interpretation and it is certainly not the interpretation which has generally prevailed among decision-makers over most of the history of the new form of the Mass.

 

[Sarabande]

Well, tell him to get on it! That was beautiful.

Agree. Very beautiful. He looks young as well.

I’ve mention Harold Boatrite a few times. He has written some beautiful motets for liturgy. He’s a devout Catholic convert and is a parishioner of Mater Ecclesiae in NJ, an EF-only parish.

Here is a little tidbit on him and a link to his “Ave Maria” on the Mater Ecclesiae’s website. Actually the writer of the little article is a good composer himself - a young composer/musician.

newliturgicalmovement.org/2008/08/music-of-master-composer-harold.html

For this one, the audio sample has a lot to be desired, but I have heard it live at mass and it is beautiful.
canticanova.com/catalog/products/g_osacrum_lawrence.htm