Bad Parish -- Get out or try to fix it?

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I certainly cannot say what any individual should do in any given case, but I can tell a little of the story of our neighboring parish, easily the worst, most dissident in the diocese, home to a Call to Action cell, YM who organizes confirmation classes to picket ordinations with signs calling for women priests, active harrassment of orthodox parishioners in various ministries. The problem started with a pastor who was too easy going and allowed a certain group with an exceedingly liberal political agenda to take control of all the paying jobs, and through them most of the ministries, espectially catechetics. Their Mass was full of the more common abuses, too boring and too long a list for here. They don’t have CCD, they have an "intergenerational program’ which basically means families get together once of month to sing songs, play games, do goofy crafts and feel good without having to confront doctrine.

This priest also happened to be strongly involved in certain very laudable social justice activities, and may have let this interfere with his oversight of his own parish. He was replaced by another more conservative priest from Mexico. This man was harassed and tormented unbelievably from the first hour he took residence, and begged the bishop to remove him. The dissidents actually sued the bishop in a local court.

Through it all certain loyal Catholics in the congregation who had been members since the parish was founded about 25 years ago remained strong, continued to kneel during the consecration and Eucharistic prayer (even when forbidden from the pulpit), to speak up at small group meetings, to form a chapter of CUF, to remain as catechists teaching the truth, to speak up knowledgebly about enforcing RS and the GIRM (having done their homework through diocesan training), and most importantly, had an active ministry of love for the dissident leadership, which they vocalized at every opportunity.

Last year this parish got a new pastor, things are settling down. Some of the old guard, disgruntled at his restoration of order and propriety have left. He has been bolstered by the support of the loyal Catholics who stood firm during all their time of trial. This group has also been counselled by a wise priest during this time not to publicly oppose the old pastor, the proper way to register protests and to report abuses to the bishop, in other words, how to go thru channels. Because of this, the bishop had the ammunition he needed to take action. Without them, he would have had no evidence of the abuses. the loyal group also refuses to allow themselves to be used by others who have competing agendas, and have made their hallmark obedience to the pastor, speaking out in love when abuses occur or teaching is wrong, and meeting regularly to pray for the parish, and for the dissidents, for the conversion of their hearts and minds.

Incredibly, I spoke recently with one of the women who had been most outspoken and dangerous in the old regime, and she has been befriended by one of those loyal parishioners, has started attending their prayer groups, and has asked me for some reading and direction in more orthodox theology and materials, with a view to restoring a proper Confirmation program. She told me she has learned humility, and is beginning a spiritual journey of her own, and happily I have been able to direct her to persons who can assist her. She is very influential among the catechists so all of this may lead to a good outcome, with God’s mercy and blessing.
 
I would say that I agree with a number of the posts here. It would be good to use a more orthodox parish as your home base, but at the same time, if at all possible, stand and fight as well. I would use the analogy of secular politics here: when a thing is changed, it is often hard to go back to the way it was before (for example, we may never get rid of abortion in the US, it’s become so embedded in our society, and if we do, it will require a long fight first). Just as in the secular world, so will it be with the parishes. You lose an orthodox church, you won’t be able to get it back without staying and fighting for it, and if you don’t stand you ground, there will soon be very few orthodox parishes left (it becomes hard for the priests to bring back orthodoxy once it’s been lost). If you have young and impressionable children, for their sake go to another parish, but on your own time try to return to your home parish to fight. And my God be with you in your struggle.
 
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Flounder:
Bad Parish – Get out or try to fix it?
I can’t think of a nice way to ask my question, but this is one thing I don’t understand about Catholics. Maybe it is a Protestant misconception of mine. Anyway, here is my question:

If you are a good Catholic, why are you thinking about leaving or actively fixing your parish? Aren’t the lay members supposed to take what the Church feeds them? I really don’t understand why someone would willingly remain Catholic if they wanted to change the Church in any way. That is a Protestant idea.
 
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Angainor:
I can’t think of a nice way to ask my question, but this is one thing I don’t understand about Catholics. Maybe it is a Protestant misconception of mine. Anyway, here is my question:

If you are a good Catholic, why are you thinking about leaving or actively fixing your parish? Aren’t the lay members supposed to take what the Church feeds them? I really don’t understand why someone would willingly remain Catholic if they wanted to change the Church in any way. That is a Protestant idea.
As perfect as Christ’s True Church is, it’s made up of imperfect members, including parishioners…some, because of lack of humility or just plain lack of obedience or failing to understand doctrine, think they can change their particular parish to reflect their own personal beliefs–they’re human.

But yes, I truly do receive what the Church feeds me - the body and blood of Jesus Christ. As far as people trying to hijack their parishes, I do believe we should stay and fight for Christ’s True Church each in our own parish. If I had to, I’d take my child to the parish with the orthodox teachings, but I’d stay and fight for my own whether it meant attending Sunday services twice as well as continuing to attend daily Mass in my own parish. I agree with the other poster whose husband said it was too much like a protestant to give up and go to another parish. The Catholic Church has remained steadfast in her teachings all along–that’s one of the beautiful inheritances we’ve been left by God–the security in knowing the perfection of His Church, the steadfast teachings, and the fact that we always know where to find the Truth–even if some individuals continue to misintepret it.

Penitent
 
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Angainor:
If you are a good Catholic, why are you thinking about leaving or actively fixing your parish? Aren’t the lay members supposed to take what the Church feeds them? I really don’t understand why someone would willingly remain Catholic if they wanted to change the Church in any way. That is a Protestant idea.
It depends upon what you’re saying. Catholics who want their parish to return to Catholicism are not wanting their Church to change - they’re just wanting their parish to follow the Church.

Catholics who want to ordain women, allow artificial birth control & homosexual marriage, bring liturgical dancers into the mass, create their own mass apart from that described in the GIRM, etc. - those are not Catholics, by definition. They are dissenters… protestants. They have excommunicated themselves by turning away from what the Catholic Church teaches.

In a protestant church, there is not usually a heirarchy of authority that goes from the church you attend to an authority that is responsible for the normalization of liturgy, teachings, etc. Each pastor is at least somewhat free to change his preaching, choose when to hold communion, interpret the Bible within his/her own frame of reference. And if there is an authority with which the pastor cannot work, he can simply go to a different denomination or found his own church.

If you, as a member of the congregation, don’t like what a pastor is doing in one church, you just pack up and go to one who is teaching more what you want to hear, as defined by your own frame of reference.

The Catholic Church has an established heirarchy and rules about the order of the mass, the liturgy, how the Bible is to be interpreted, etc. If a priest goes off and starts doing his own thing, he’s the one who is going with protestant ideas, and he’s creating dissenters or encouraging them when he does so.

The faithful in his flock are thrown into a quandary - leave or stay and fight for Catholic authority to hold sway in a Catholic Church?

But, this is not a protestant quandary - it’s very much Catholic. Can this priest and the dissenters be encouraged to return to Catholic teachings, or is it going to be such an uphill road that just leaving and finding a more Catholic parish is better for our an individual’s practice of Catholicism?

When pastors start teaching protestant ideas, it causes some to lose their faith. The politics of personality turn into something out of Machiavelli - at least from what I’ve heard from people who have been through such trials. And the people who just want to be Catholic and worship as the Church teaches are stuck in the middle.

This is clearly not what the Church intends. A Catholic should be able to go to any parish and hear only Catholic teachings and see exactly the same mass as at any others. (Obviously, some priests are better speakers than others, and there will be little differences within the norms, but you get what I’m saying, right? 🙂 )

Elizabeth
 
Hmmm…interesting that this would pop up now, when I am becoming increasingly disillusioned with my parish. We have always been considered a “liberal” parish, however, the more I learn about Catholicism, the more Orthodox I become. I have recently gotten a new priest who is quite liberal. Many of the more traditional families have up and left. I always wondered if they said anything or just left. I have said something and while this repsonse wasn’t said to me, it was said to a group of people that - who am I to tell our priest how to run his parish? So now I’m starting to wonder if it’s time to get out. This whole problem is confounded by the fact that I am a leader for our Mass band.
 
Leave; go to a more traditional parish and pray that other faithful Catholics find traditional parishes to attend. Faithful Catholics should not enable a liberal parish to conduct or uphold liberal activities (through money [tithes] or attendance). Let the faithful parishes flourish, and let the liberal parishes stew in their own juices. If the liberal, labyrinth-reiki-clownmass-loving parishes have no parishoners, they will be forced to die or change… while the traditional parishes flourish. Have nothing to do with the so called ‘progressive’ parishes that practice unholy (and often times paganistic) things. Support (attend & tithe to) the traditional parishes. This is the most effective solution second to prayer :gopray2:.

❤️“Come out of her, my people, that you may not participate in her sins and that you may not receive of her plagues; for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.” —Revelation 18:4-5. :amen::bowdown:
 
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Flounder:
The discussion on George who’s thinking of leaving the church got me thinking…

Let’s say you start attending Mass at a parish, or the parish you attend starts changing. Abuses crop up from parishoners or the priest or whatever and you don’t like the way it’s going…Do you stay and try to fix it or pack up and move to another parish?

My Mom left but came back to fight in her’s…my sister-in-law left her’s…and here in my town everyone normal just avoids this one weird parish.

What do you guys think is the right thing to do for you and your family, and/or what would the decision be based on?
Leave, but gather hundreds upon hundreds of signatures to get the liberal pastor out.
 
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