Bad Priest Advice?

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While St. Alphonsus should be given his due, I’m not sure I’m on board. Further, I’m not sure that this is valid, infallible Catholic teaching.

The Catechism doesn’t mention it, and you’d think that would be pretty important.

Further, it seems we have a couple of counter examples. St. Augustine’s life prior to his conversion being one of them. The other would be the message of Divine Mercy:


“Our Lord Jesus wants to pardon completely even the worst sinners possible.
Remember, Jesus has come for sinners, not the righteous.
Jesus said that even if our sins were as numerous as the
grains of sand, they would be lost in His Ocean of Mercy”
 
If I were you, I would take a break from this site and read something solid and uplifting, and maybe listen to some good music, kick back, go for a quiet walk.

CAF is a great place and there are lots of excellent posters here, including po18, but we’re none of us perfect, and there are certain topics which are really, really difficult.

Speaking as somebody who has suffered (and at times taken the ‘involuntary break’ from here when her posts have become a little too uncomfortable for some) with hearing BPA (title), believe me I hear and understand, but in this society, you just are not likely to be able to communicate without ‘offending’ someone. The best advice I can give is to walk the straight way, turning neither to right nor left, and to just communicate more with Jesus. At least for now, this issue is too sensitive, and for the sake of others, it’s really charitable to ‘break’ for a bit and then post for a while on casual stuff. It helps to find the ‘common ground’ and one feels less like, “Am I the only one left who is worried about this” and more like, “There are so many things we have as Catholics which draw us together”.
 
Not at all. There may not be the same number of sins that God pardons for each individual.
In St. Alphonsus’s words: “So incomprehensible are God’s judgments.” St. Alphonsus said a child was sent to hell right upon attaining the age of reason, and that in the Bible Jesus cursed a fig tree the first time that it did not bear fruit. Who knows how God will judge. Who knows if God will judge in a similar manner as he did to St. Augustine, or if he will judge like he did with the fig tree… after the first mortal sin that you are fully culpable of… so incomprehensible are his judgments! Quote by St. Alphonsus: “Reach into your heart and tremble lest God treats you in a similar manner [to the fig tree]!”

Second, my claim is not that “this is a Truth” of the Magesterium. I never said that. I said, it should be treated as possible, because so many Saints/ Doctors of the Church (there are only 36 of them), who have almost a “creepy” (but in a good way), connection with God to be right about so many things, thought this, so it is possible. That is my claim.

“it is possible there exists a number of sins beyond which God pardons no more… and this uncertainty is what should make us tremble.”

That is my argument. Also it is not just St. Alphonsus who believes it, it is a plethora of other Doctors of the Church (who thought the vast majority of people went to hell as well). While it is true the Magisterium, as far as I know, has not clarified on whether there is a number of sins beyond which God pardons no more for each individual, that does not make it untrue.

The Church never declared pleasure during sex was moral to pursue until 1950, and that is pretty important for sexual morality isn’t it? Does that make it untrue?

Simply, you misunderstand the Church. The guarantee is that our Church will not lead us into grave error. The Church is not guaranteed to teach the Truth as soon as possible.

Also, there can be many prudential reasons the Magisterium may not choose to teach something: they want a change of “tone,” it won’t be received by the Faithful, they are focused on other issues more pressing to our salvation, bad press coverage, they think there is a high chance of misinterpretation/ they find it hard to clarify the nuances… they do not want people to just think “I am going to hell”, etc (even if they knew some line exists for each individual beyond which God does not pardon).

So the point remains: there might (note that I said might) be a number of sins beyond which God pardons no more. And that is precisely why we should be so concerned with lust, which racks up so many sins that penitents may not be able to count the number of sins they committed the next time they go to confession.
 
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I don’t think I do. Again, I’ll stick with the Divine Mercy and the laid out infallible magisterium. But we can agree to disagree.
 
Well, St. Alphonsus had an easy refutation of that. A deceitful artifice of the enemy of salvation is overconfidence in God’s mercy. God is merciful you say? And infinitely merciful? True. And it is possible even a tear of remorse is capable of washing away all sins of mankind, you say? True.

But as St. Alphonsus said: God’s justice is also infinite!!!

Finally, the Magisterium is our teaching authority, not any individual Saint. Other Saints have had apparitions of a hell filled and packed with souls. So even if there is “tension” between the apparitions of different Saints, it is the Magisterium that will clarify in the end. But the Magisterium has not officially clarified on this issue.

So in the absence of guidance from the Holy See, what should we say? We should treat both positions as “probable.” And like I said before, this uncertainty of not knowing (if you claim there is certainty of knowing, by all means, tell me how you deduced it from the Magesterium to arrive at this certainty)… there could very well be a number of sins beyond which God pardons no more. This conforms with the intuition of St. Augustine, St. Jerome, St. Bede the Venerable, St. John Chrysostom, etc.

Conclusion: We should reach into our hearts and tremble, lest God does not take mercy upon our sins! Flee! Flee! Flee!
 
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And the Magisterium doesn’t say there is a limit. Trusting in mercy != Presumption.

I’ve been down the road of scrupulosity, and with a good spiritual director and some therapy, I came back. That’s not a good road, and not spiritually healthy. You get down far enough then sin isn’t a problem because ‘Hey, why not. I’m lost anyway…’ Imagine every day, every minute, every hour worrying that you did something to offend God because of an imperfect sense of his justice and mercy. Then on top of that imagine that you’re sinning by not trusting in his mercy. Then add in an imperfect interpretation of St. Alphonsus. Well okay then! I’m done! Might as well get down to some serious sinning because there is no hope. It’s almost hell on earth.

That is decidedly NOT what God wanted for us.

I think the more correct interpretation is closer to the ‘sin against the holy spirit’. The more you sin, and stay obstinant in sin, the less likely you are to repent. But you still can , like the prodigal son.

Without the Magisterium specifically teaching that, taking St. Alphonsus words literally, without knowing the context, sounds more fundamentalist to me than Catholic. Not going there.

Okay. I’m out. God Bless you and have a wonderful day.
 
  1. You still “can” be saved
Behold another deceitful artifice of the enemy of salvation: have confidence in your salvation after repeatedly sinning. Oh! In the words of St. Alphonsus: What folly is it to leave your salvation to a “perhaps.” Do you accept the Truths of the Catholic Faith that hell is eternal? Do you accept the Truth that hell is rightfully called torture? Do you accept that a single mortal sin if fully culpable and if you persistent in it until death (unrepentant and unforgiven) will send you immediately to hell? Then no safeguards, no level of precautions, no level of fleeing can be too much when eternity is at stake. Do whatever it takes to secure your salvation. Whatever it takes. Pray the rosary every day, frequently approach the sacraments, have a regular devotion to Mary, start constant and unrelenting mortifications. Follow the logical conclusions of the Catholic Faith, there is uncertainty about how God will judge, uncertainty about an eternity of torture from the sins that you commit. Therefore, flee!
  1. But people with scrupulosity will be paralyzed in fear and led to despair if you tell them to follow the Moral Law at all times?
The Moral Law explains this conundrum! It is a sin of omission to be so obsessed with morality, to such a high degree, that you fail to fulfill your obligations of charity and prayer. Therefore, the solution is to be properly vigilant at all times, factoring in sins of omission. Do not stop striving at all times and all places, unrelentingly, to follow the Moral Law. But what about the overwhelming feelings of despair? The Council of Trent infallibly declares that God does not command impossibilities. Regardless of how violent the temptation to despair may be, God is Faithful, and promises to provide the extra assistance that you require to fight off temptations to despair. Let me repeat, regardless of how violent that temptation may be. Please do not doubt the veracity of God. God is not a mere man; he cannot contradict himself. Therefore, the solution is, whenever a temptation to despair arises, turn instantly to God and implore his assistance, beseech him like an animal crying in the wilderness, like a person hanging on for dear life over a precipice. God is the entity keeping us from hell. Implore him: “Keep your hands over me. If you don’t I will betray thee.”

Regardless of how violent or persistent that temptation may be, regardless of whether it happens once a day or once a second, regardless of whether it is minor discomfort or the equivalent of what Saints experienced when they were tortured to death in the Towers of London, with the extraordinary assistance of God, you can and will conquer all temptations, including to despair. Insofar as it is possible to knowingly and deliberately perform an act, God will provide! Beg! Cry out! “God I need you. God I need you.” Cry out to Mary. Flee! Flee! Flee!

Another means for salvation: extreme diffidence in your own abilities, but extreme confidence in God! Be in a continual sprint from the occasions. Cowards gain the victory!
 
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  1. I did not say that recognizing and trusting in God’s mercy was presumption, I said that overconfidence in God’s mercy was a deceitful artifice of the enemy of salvation.
  2. Uniformity with God’s will means throwing yourself in, not merely “hanging in there.” So yes, at all times and at all moments, you should be striving to align your own will with that of God. Unceasing vigilance is the solution.
  3. St. Alphonsus thought his scruples led him closer to God!
  4. I never said to take the words of St. Alphonsus literally. I said, his position that there is a number of sins beyond which God pardons no more is a POSSIBILITY (not a certainty). You are taking the position of certainty in the other direction (I am taking the position of uncertainty “I do not know”)! If you have an argument please provide it from the Magisterium. But the Magisterium has not clarified, so we may not be able to answer this question with certainty, making my case! So like I said before, in this uncertainty, we should be constantly vigilant and prepare for it to be very hard to get to heaven or purgatory. The uncertainty itself when eternity is at stake is precisely the reason to operate as though a single additional mortal sin could send you to hell.
Finally, you talk about being “worried.” St. Alphonsus and other Doctors of the Church use this emotion to gain the victory. As St. Alphonsus ended his Sermon, the Delusion of Sinners, I will leave you with his advice:

“Dearly beloved Christians, enter into yourselves, and tremble; for this sermon may be the last of Gods mercies to you.”

I love you so much! And I will pray for you!
 
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You love me? Now I’m mad. You didn’t even read me. You talk of “artifice of the deceiver” while denying the mercy set out, by Christ, in the divine mercy message.

You toss out a line about st alphonsus and his scruples leading him closer to God.

That’s lovely.

Here’s what scruples did to me, and others I know:
  • lead to despair
  • lead to indifference because “why bother”
  • lead to nearly losing my faith while thinking I’m losing my mind.
  • lead to being bitter and resentful
  • being nearly Faithless.
Scruples aren’t a gift.

Scruples aren’t rational.

Scruples quite often are a mental illness.

Scruples are the enemy of faith and not of Christ. Many many great saints tell us to have faith in Christ’s mercy.

Your spouting an opinion of one saint and ignoring others.
 
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I never denied the divine mercy message. In fact, I said the opposite, that the Mercy of God was infinite, and I agree with the Saints who speak about his Mercy. But what did I also say?
  1. God’s justice is also infinite.
  2. Although God’s Mercy is infinite, at the same time (both are true at the same time), overconfidence in his Mercy is a deceitful artifice of the enemy of salvation (it is from the devil himself).
As far as what scruples can do, I am backing up my opinion with the Council of Trent, so it is impossible for this to be wrong. Let me repeat that, it is impossible for the Council of Trent to be wrong.

Here is the reasoning in favor of constant vigilance.
  1. God cannot contradict himself; he is not a mere man. You said you experienced despair, indifference, loss of faith, and feelings of resentment? Those feelings are 100 percent valid, I was not invalidating your struggles. What did I say? By the Council of Trent, if you are unable with the ordinary assistance of God to overcome temptation, cry out for God’s extraordinary assistance, and he will provide it, regardless of how violent those temptations to despair, faithlessness, and so on, may be. To repeat, regardless of how violent those temptations may be. God cannot contradict himself by allowing us to tempted beyond our means. Even if the struggles were hundreds of times worse, like the tortures that Saints went through in the Tower of London, God still provided the assistance that they required to not break the Moral Law. God could not contradict himself. Please do not doubt the veracity of God! That is why constant and unceasing vigilance is always good (I am not negating that there can be different paths to Holiness. I am saying that vigilance is always a good option).
Finally, St. Alphonsus/ child prodigy, is arguably the most influential Theologian ever. He is in fact the Patron Saint of Theologians and Confessors. Who would be better to speak about sin, than the Patron Saint of confessors? He is not just any Saint. He is one of 36 Doctors of the Church. He is up with St. Thomas and St. Augustine in terms of his impact on the Church. In fact, Pope Gregory XVI declared that the opinions of St. Alphonsus in his monumental work titled Moral Theology could be quietly accepted just by virtue of him having held that position. No other theologian has gotten more affirmation by the Holy See. He earned his Ph.D. at age 17!

Is this St. Alphonsus’s isolated opinion? No! St. Philip Neri, St. John Chrysostom, St. John of the Cross. St. Augustine. St. Thomas. St. Gregory the Great. All of these Doctors held the view that the vast majority of people went to Hell, that constant vigilance was necessary at all times, that you should despair in your own abilities, that mortifications are crucial, and that you should throw yourself to Christ and give up the worldly. Give God your entire will. Not just 15 minutes a day, but your entire will, that is, the entire collection of choices that you will ever make. Give God your very heart.

Then you can say to God: I have given you my will, I have nothing left to give thee. That is the attitude of a multitude of Saints!
 
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Something does not have to be decreed “ex cathedra” to be infallible. To be part of the Magisterium it has to be declared and defined as an issue of Faith and Morals to be held by all the Church’s Faithful in a document that has the capacity to be authoritative. To be part of the infallible Magisterium, it must be declared irreformable.
  1. The Vademecum for Confessors declares that the teaching on Contraception is “irreformable.” Theologians who reject that this teaching is infallible, as part of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium, are not taking the text seriously. The Magisterium would not have written that it was “irreformable,” if it did not think it was infallible. This is the most direct evidence for its infallibility.
  2. Cardinal Muller was the Prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith. If anyone would know infallibility, it would be the person tasked with promoting and safeguarding the Catholic Faith, second in charge in the Vatican. He said it was infallible and Theologians trying to change this teaching were committing a “Crime against the Church”
 
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alphonsus1 said:
Finally, St. Alphonsus/ child prodigy, is arguably the most influential Theologian ever.
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This is dubious; Alphonsus is not in the same vein as Augustine or Chrysostom.
And the Angelic Doctor is in a category of his own: no one has approached his intelligence or breadth of knowledge since he lived among us. His mastery of philosophy and theology are unmatched. Additionally, his writing of music, and components of sacred worship are likewise superb.
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There are so many odd things in this thread, I’m not sure where to begin. I will share just one thought:
Code: 
There **is** a hierarchy of sin - and that matters in an *academic* way:  homosexual acts are, in fact, greater than heterosexual ones, as they are both unnatural and immoral.  Adultery is a greater sin than fornication, as it violates both justice (taking something that belongs to another) and is immoral. 

To @Tis_Bearself - This doesn’t matter, as much in a *practical* way, however.  Unrepentant mortal sin gets you to eternal separation from God (Hell), regardless if the sin was a greater or lesser mortal one.
Deacon Christopher
 
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I said that St. Alphonsus is arguably the most influential “Moral Theologian,” but he is not the most influential “Theologian” in general, that rests with St. Thomas and St. Augustine. Also, I said arguably because it depends on what is meant by influential. I do not think he had the most “impact on moral theology” (because the earliest moral theologians laid the foundations), but I think he had the most significant contributions to moral theology. Namely, he single handedly consolidated the different schools of theology into the Manualist Tradition. Also, he was given more affirmation by the Holy See than any other theologian, ever. For this reason, we can be more confident that the theology of St. Alphonsus is correct than we can be confident that the theology of any other Saint is correct (because of the approbation officially decreed by Pope Gregory XVI). Finally, given he was Patron Saint of Theologians and Confessors, if anyone would know about the answer to whether there exists a number of sins beyond which God pardons no more, then it would be St. Alphonsus.

As far as all mortal sin being treated as equal, because of being removed from God. Refer to this quote from the infallible Council of Florence:

“But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains.”

It clearly says, the pains of hell are unequal. It is a false assumption to treat all suffering in Hell as though it were equally bad.
 
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Hello…
Romans 2.15 the Law of God is written in every heart.

Tell me all those Jews who divorced their wives since the time of Moses until now are they in Heaven or Hell ?
Moses allowed divorce even though God hates it.
Perhaps millions have divorced since the time of Moses until now, so if they have committed acts of Mortal sin given God hates divorce are they in Heaven or Hell, and are they responsible given they followed instructions given by the Prophet Moses, Christ himself told us in Mathew 23 that we should do what the priests tell us.
With so much confusion around there is a simple answer and that is to Not Judge others actions or words but to pray for them and Love them unconditionally and leave the right and wrong of things to God.
Christ did not call everyone so those he called and those that answered Yes to him should lead by example and people would be drawn to the truth of Jesus Christ and all this would be done without judging others just like Saint Francis.
I hope that helps you see my position a little clearer. God bless
 
  1. Natural Marriages are not the same as Catholic Sacramental Marriages, which can never be broken if valid from the onset. It is from death due you part.
  2. Remarriage and adultery are always sins, civil devorice for a grave reason and separation can be tolerated:
Catechism 2383: “If civil divorce remains the only possible way of ensuring certain legal rights, the care of the children, or the protection of inheritance, it can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offense.”
  1. No one knows how God will judge culpability, in the words of St. Alphonsus, so mysterious are God’s judgements. It is possible that God could be very lenient on certain particular sins like devorice, and not others, who knows. It is possible God could forgive countless sins, and it is possible a single additional mortal sin could send you to hell. Who am I to judge? For this reason, and since an eternity of torture is at stake, no security can be too great. Flee!
  2. We should not condemn individuals, but we can determine the morality of actions. “Action X is immoral.” Also, we can warn of the dangers of perdition and even “call out” heresy, for the sake of saving souls. But like with everything, things not intrinsically evil depend on the circumstances and specific situation. For example yelling is not intrinsically evil. Is it at a basketball game or at the library? “Tough love” (talking about sin and hell) is not intrinsically evil either. Is your audience Traditionalist Catholics, who would get motivated by that type of talk? Can drill Sargents in the army use tough love? Are you evangelizating to atheists who disagree with the Church’s teachings? Will you drive people away or cause emotional distress by what you are saying? All of the costs and benefits must be considered. What we can say all depends upon the circumstances:)
 
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