Bad RCIA Hippie Movie

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eightydeuce82

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:dts::ouch:Sorry this is so long but I needed a place to vent this and see what all you good people thought. I promise it will be a good read….i think? 👍

Ok so let me set the scene here a bit:

I’m a Cradle Catholic my dad raised me as a Catholic. My dad is Catholic however my mother is not. This past year she decided it’s time to become Catholic. Its not that she didn’t already understand the faith, after 35 years with my dad but it’s time to officially become a Catholic. So were RCIA bound. Since I’m a Cradle Catholic I have never been to an RCIA class and I was a bit intrigued by the whole process. So I decide to attend the class. I had doubts about going as I consider myself an amateur apologist and I have a very deep understanding of our faith from a theological, doctrinal, and Dogma perspective. I guess I was afraid that I might see something I didn’t like……and I did! :confused:

So we are currently in week 4 going into week 5. The first two days were standard introductions and conversion stories. I was hooked after hearing many of the testimonies of why people were inquiring to be Catholic. I think its something us who were born into this forget. I decided I’d stay the entire process:popcorn:. I started to notice right from the get-go that our teacher was a bit of a hippie. She played some 60s music at the beginning and had everyone close their eyes and just listen . Ok not my taste no harm no foul but certainly not my cup of tea being a former military man. So I miss week three but my dad goes and they were presenting the history of the bible. Apparently it was pretty bad and it didn’t play up at all the Church’s role in compiling it. My dad was not impressed. From his words:

“I was totally disappointed with last night’s presentation. Last week was a little better, but not much. It focused on how the bible was put together, but didn’t play up the Catholic Church’s role. If I didn’t know what I know, I would be totally blank about what makes the catholic faith so different from other denominations based on the 2 presentations I’ve listened to.” 🤷

Queue week 4!

So I kind of felt this would be inevitable but the topic of conversation is the Church Hierarchy, magisterium, infallible decrees, and s bit on Dogma. What we got was a nervous presenter who was so nervous that everything she said was basically unintelligible. I looked around the room and everyone had this mystified lost look on their faces. It was actually embarrassing:blush:. We had the pleasure of having our Deacon with us that night as well as two other instructors. Not one of them intervened to try and rescue this sinking ship. So for 45 minutes confusion was spouted from the pulpit. During a pause one of the students asked a question and it went something like this….

Continued…
 
Student: What is a dogma?

Teachers and Deacon: silence looking at one another 🤷……… and then they scratched together something resembling that Dogma was NOT infallible and that there were only two infallible statements by Popes in the 2000 year history:doh2:.

I look over at the Deacon…shocked:eek:? So I politely looked at the lady in charge of everything (she was sitting on the side) and said quietly that I’m pretty sure that Dogmas are infallibly taught Divine revelation from God and she said no! So I pulled the teaching up on my phone and snuck over to the Deacon and asked him to read. He appeared to be a little taken back by that but said something of the sorts that there are two different kinds! I have no idea what he meant by that? I was expecting him to correct what had been said but he didn’t and appeared he didn’t know either.

Now I completely expected someone especially the Deacon to say something or at least an “I don’t know let me check” but nothing happened and the class ended. These students walked out of that classroom thinking the Church had only infallible defined two Marian issues!

I waited till everyone had left and I approached the instructors and voiced my opinion about what I considered an error that’s kind of significant. In true St. Jerome form I utterly failed in the compassion and empathy side of my comment and it was not well received :slapfight:. This is typical for me but I caught it quickly and tried to talk through the issue with the instructors. We talked for well over an hour. I explained what the church teaches about Dogma and that they are in fact infallible decrees and encompassed the basic fundamentals of our faith. The head lady actually said she didn’t care about doctrine and dogma and that things like that don’t concern her :eek:. She then went on to try and tell me that the people in the class don’t need to be concerned about that stuff. She even said most people don’t know this stuff to include priests! I tried to explain to her how important it is to be able to answer questions that students have that relate to the biggest topics in Catholicism and be able to give them a proper answer. I said “I wouldn’t expect people to know the 255 different Dogmas of the church but I would expect the instructor to be able to distinguish the difference and be able to give a brief description of what a Dogma is verses a Doctrine”. At a minimum, be able to answer the question of a student briefly.

I tried to explain the church makes a lot of bold statements :highprayer: and being able to tie those things to scripture and the authority of the church is KEY! People coming from other protestant faiths are taught everything counter to these things we claim and deny the Churches claims of being the Church Christ founded and infallible. A lot of people in that class are there (as told by their introductions) because they found inconsistencies and holes in their faith that their churches couldn’t bridge. Explaining the “why” is super important and proving an explanation with solid scripture and other sources brings a Catholic validity to the topic. If you’re having a discussion about Church hierarchy and in particular the role of the magisterium it probably would help to explain what those people do and specifically the magisterium’s’ most important job which is to define Dogma and Doctrine as it applies today. That concept seemed completely lost.

Now I realize that they are trying to teach people on various different education levels. Some know the Christian faith quite well. Some don’t know anything at all and that can be challenging but one would think that someone charged with teaching the Catholic faith to the people would be able to or be knowledgeable of the faith they are trying to convey. Especially someone who says they have been doing this for 25 years.

Here is my point

I get the whole God is love concept :grouphug:and I agree with that statement but simply holding that statement and using that as you’re sole reason for conversion to Catholicism to me is a moot point. The head instructor then led me on a drawn out explanation how God is love and unicorns and rainbows bla bla bla….God is love isn’t reason enough to convince someone to become a Catholic. You can know God is love and not be a Catholic and if we can’t explain to people why being Catholic is important then what are we doing?

It may sound petty but I mean no disrespect to our church but you are selling these people a brand and if your front men don’t know much about the brand or if your commercials are bad you’re NOT going to sell a lot of the product. Especially the front men who say they don’t care about doctrines and dogmas or even know how to simply explain what they are and seem to be pushing this brand of catechesis that feels like it fell out of a 1960’s hippie movie. I’m not trying to be mean these are great people who have stepped up to do this. They volunteered to provide this service to the church and that should be commended. They are all very nice people but I get the impression that they are not very knowledgeable of the faith that we profess and are doing a terrible job at conveying these truths to the class. If you can’t explain to someone why they should become a Catholic in the first 4 sessions of a class then we are not doing something right. It’s like watching a 4 hour long commercial that hasn’t mentioned the product yet. Most people would turn the channel. It appears that many have as the class went from about 50 people to 25 or so.

The Head instructor has invited me to stay in the class but I can see her reservations. She did make the comment that I am very knowledgeable about the faith and in an attempt to smooth it over with me said that she would use my knowledge from time to time especially in the apologetics questions.
 
I have this fear that I’m being to overbearing and that my priest might be upset with me for doing what I did but I cannot stand by while people who want to convert to this wonderful gift are told lies and half-truth and confused. I hold myself personally responsible for the proper teaching of the faith and take great offence to those who present a watered down confusing nonfactual information to people. In my personal opinion I wanted to say “do you realize the amount of people who have died trying to protect this information from error? The blood of Christ, all the martyr’s, and the millions who perished at the hands of others simply because they wanted us to have the truths as revealed to them by their predecessor’s means so much to me. To have a some hippie who could care less about the core principles really ticks me off!

What say you all?
 
I would go to the pastor and suggest adoption of the ACM program. It is very thorough, completely orthodox, and has a manual for the director, for the catechists, and handouts for the participants.

It’s top notch and explains things very well.
 
I would say that you should stay and work on not being so overbearing while they work on being better equipped to articulate the content of our faith. 😉

Seriously, though, it is a skill to be able to work in ministry with those we think are doing it totally wrong. Being overbearing or uncharitable is likely to hinder rather than help.

Not to say you have to sit silently while heresy is put forth. But try to give them the benefit of the doubt. It seems you already had made some assumptions about the RCIA director before this even came up (calling her a “hippie” and everything like that). Assume it is an honest mistake that could use some clarification rather than being intentionally misleading.

Perhaps the two of you can learn from each other.
 
1ke said:
I would go to the pastor and suggest adoption of the ACM program. It is very thorough, completely orthodox, and has a manual for the director, for the catechists, and handouts for the participants.

It’s top notch and explains things very well.
Click to expand...
Agree.
 
eightydeuce82 said:
I have this fear that I’m being to overbearing and that my priest might be upset with me for doing what I did but I cannot stand by while people who want to convert to this wonderful gift are told lies and half-truth and confused. I hold myself personally responsible for the proper teaching of the faith and take great offence to those who present a watered down confusing nonfactual information to people. In my personal opinion I wanted to say “do you realize the amount of people who have died trying to protect this information from error? The blood of Christ, all the martyr’s, and the millions who perished at the hands of others simply because they wanted us to have the truths as revealed to them by their predecessor’s means so much to me. To have a some hippie who could care less about the core principles really ticks me off!

What say you all?
Click to expand...
You are doing the right thing in noticing the truths of the Church being presented with half-truths that are confusing and will be harmful in the long run.

Priests are responsible for their flock, and he may not be aware of what is going on. You can explain your frustration to your pastor.

The Church’s God-given authority is in faith and morals. (Magisterium).
 
I didnt call her a hippie thats just my opinion. I developed it when I was confronted by the combiya music and the sitting in a circle listning to 60s hippie music eyes closed talking about love and how it was in the 60s…as far as her learning the faith she has been doing this for over 25 years. If it hasnt happened now I dont think its going to. I did wait to say something after everyone had left.

What concerns me is that they are pumping people into the Church who have no doctrinal backbone and think its all about the lovy dovy stuff…We do have an epedemic in the church and thats caused by 60+ years a poor chatechesis and instructors like this lady…who im suspecting seems to think denying communion to the divorced and remarried is wrong…She told my dad this since he cant recieve. I also think she is leaning to the left on the woman priest thing…

Honestly if this continues were going to have 50 heretics sitting in the pews and thats not what RCIA is supposed to do. Do you learn everything…no way! 33 years of study and im never going to get there but the basics are important. Im so sick of everyone just defering to doing what ever they want and pretending that nothing is wrong…then using the charity defence (no offence). Whats uncharatible is leading people away from the truth and teaching them the wrong thing and thuse filling our pews with Catholics with a little c who dont care about things like doctrine and dogma.
 
To the OP:

From your statement:

I’m not trying to be mean these are great people who have stepped up to do this. They volunteered to provide this service to the church and that should be commended.

Yes, the pastor is ultimately responsible for the education in the parish. But a pastor can only work with what he has and in most parishes, that means volunteers.

Perhaps you are being called to be the leader and to step forward with your background and training and put it to use.

My only comment on your approach is are you “really” surprise at the reaction you got with the approach you took?
 
Coach,

No certainly not suprised at all! Its one of my biggest hinderances is my quick whit and fast toung. Which is why I believe i follow in ST. Jerome’s footsteps 😃

I have considered taking up the call to teach RCIA and after this experience I think it would be a huge disservice to the church if I dont.

I mean I was kind of expecting this after all the RCIA horror stories I have read but let those go when I realize we have a pretty orthodox parish. Boy was I wrong!

No one likes to be called out. As a Catholic who knows his stuff I can say that I have had my share of confrontations with heracy. None I have seen that I have done or others have ever ended well. But we are called to confront it!
 
1ke said:
I would go to the pastor and suggest adoption of the ACM program. It is very thorough, completely orthodox, and has a manual for the director, for the catechists, and handouts for the participants.

It’s top notch and explains things very well.
Click to expand...
Good to know…thanks for the reference.
My search turned up this link:

acmrcia.org/
 
eightydeuce82 said:
I have this fear that I’m being to overbearing and that my priest might be upset with me for doing what I did but I cannot stand by while people who want to convert to this wonderful gift are told lies and half-truth and confused. I hold myself personally responsible for the proper teaching of the faith and take great offence to those who present a watered down confusing nonfactual information to people. In my personal opinion I wanted to say “do you realize the amount of people who have died trying to protect this information from error? The blood of Christ, all the martyr’s, and the millions who perished at the hands of others simply because they wanted us to have the truths as revealed to them by their predecessor’s means so much to me. To have a some hippie who could care less about the core principles really ticks me off!

What say you all?
Click to expand...
I wonder, if she has been doing this for 25 years, if you have looked at her “success rate” so to speak.
For example:
Is there a big dropout rate in the program?
Are the products of the program (the new catholics) people you are acquainted with or have noticed…gotten to know them and taken enough of an interest to determine anything about the “finished product”?
If you haven’t gotten to know any of the recent converts, I suggest you do.

THis would be more important than judging the initial sessions.

It IS a process after all…not a lecture series on doctrines that you slam people through to a tough final exam. Formation…a journey… is involved as well. It unfolds. Gently.
Therefore, sometimes it’s important not to get too much ahead in one’s zeal to make sure they have all their catholic basic credits…which usually come along.
At my parish, for example, the new Catholics are very well catechized, and are usually so strong theologically than many cradles want in the program.
 
I agree with you Mac!

If the fact that the class is half the size after 4 classes isnt proof enough I dont know what is. I have actually talked to a few people there and some who have been through it and they were not very pleased.

Like I said in my original post I certainly wouldnt expect them to be memorizing 255 infalible Dogmas! But I expect a Deacon or a 25 year veteran of RCIA to be able to tell the class what a Dogma is when asked. Or a presenter be able to at least make a sentance that can be understood. Or them to know the function of a cardinal and where they select the Pope from! but they didnt.

thank goodness that this year is the first using the new product Symbolon so those start next week!

I was so upset last week that I actually went home and made print-outs of the church Hirarchy and of what a Dogma is that im going to bring to the class on monday and pass out. Im hoping it helps people not be so confused.
 
If it was me, and it was me at one point, I’d look for another parish for your moms RCIA. Is this the parish your family attends mass at?

I actually left RCIA myself after a very dissatisfied attempt. I knew there was just no way I was going to be able to suck it up and keep my mouth closed for over 6 months just so I could get baptized. I wanted orthodox instruction as I’d already been studying on my own for years. And I got it, it just took awhile to find the right place. One clue I had the right RCIA for me, was the parish had mass in the EF and that the primary materials used in RCIA were the catechism and the bible.

Have you talked to your mom about this? How does she feel? Speaking only for myself it would feel like a complete waste of time to sit in a class being told heterodox things about the church just to have to come home and research the facts myself. That would drive me crazy.
 
As a program coordinator for an RCIA program in a parish of over 6000, I just want to say that while you may have a point, it is not uncommon each year for at least one (usually revert, seldom but sometimes a convert) who is unhappy with the teaching, facilitation, curriculum, haircut of the catechist, etc., and who knows a better way.

By all means we like to hear about it.

However, don’t forget to pray forus, just as you pray for the clergy.

Its a tough job, and we need all the help we can get.

Now, once you get your issues resolved to your satisfaction, I urge you to step forward and get involved in this vital ministry as a member of the RCIA team.

Peace and all Good!
 
Cider

This is our church all the rest in the area are so liberal its discusting. I walked into one the other day to go do a confession and I though I had walked into a post reformation lutheran church. No crucifix, modern design, no artwork etc.etc…

All my kids were baptised htere, go to school there and for all intents and purposes is the only orthodox church left in my area. The offer Latin Mass 4 times a month!

Neo,

Of course people are not always going to like something however like mentioned above there is a way RCIA is suposed to be run. Its Law actually. I get that there will be the ones that no matter what you do they will not like it however if they dont like it because the teacher is a heretic teaching heretical things or just leaving out everything but the God is love stuff then they have every right to be mad.

We have an obligation to tell the truth and at the end of it they will make a decree in which they say they fully understand and will comply with the teachings of the church. No go read the statistics on how many catholics use contraceptives, dont believe in the real presence, and on and on…they are atrocious.
 
eightydeuce82 said:
I agree with you Mac!

If the fact that the class is half the size after 4 classes isnt proof enough I dont know what is. I have actually talked to a few people there and some who have been through it and they were not very pleased.

Like I said in my original post I certainly wouldnt expect them to be memorizing 255 infalible Dogmas! But I expect a Deacon or a 25 year veteran of RCIA to be able to tell the class what a Dogma is when asked. Or a presenter be able to at least make a sentance that can be understood. Or them to know the function of a cardinal and where they select the Pope from! but they didnt.

thank goodness that this year is the first using the new product Symbolon so those start next week!

I was so upset last week that I actually went home and made print-outs of the church Hirarchy and of what a Dogma is that im going to bring to the class on monday and pass out. Im hoping it helps people not be so confused.
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Hmmm. Well sounds like using Symbolon will be a good thing.
Hang in, be facilitating and helpful…and perhaps you will become part of the team.
Sounds like it might be a good calling all around.
 
I certainly hope so im not trying to be that guy! I have heard good things about symbolon we shall see. Anything has to be better than this.
 
eightydeuce82 said:
I certainly hope so im not trying to be that guy! I have heard good things about symbolon we shall see. Anything has to be better than this.
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Having an interest in catechesis, I looked forward to symbolon and found it interesting…it has proven, however, not very engaging (in fact, many have described it as dreadfully boring) to catechumen.

I had high hopes for it, because it was connected to Fr. Barron, who’s Catholicism series was great!..After 3 episodes of Symbolon, we’ve shelved it and are using Catholicism instead.
 
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