Bad RCIA Hippie Movie

[Joe_5859]

I’m not saying there are not reasons for you to be concerned. I’m glad you didn’t call here a hippie to her face )), but – going off of the tone of your post – I can understand why your comments might not have been well received. You repeatedly state how excellent your knowledge is and how lacking theirs is. If this seeps into your conversation with them at all, it’s going to make you look like an arrogant know-it-all. Then they are going to be “on guard” whenever you are near and they will not be open to anything you have to say.

If you have a handle on the doctrine, that’s great. And certainly, many do new Catholics a disservice by watering down the deposit of faith and making it solely a matter of “God is love.”

But, we have to remember that it is also a truth of the faith that God is love. He cannot be outdone in love, generosity, or mercy. He wants to forgive us of our sins and have that intimate, loving relationship with all of us.

I’m sure you know this, but I say it because it doesn’t come across well in your posts. And if it doesn’t come across in your posts, then there is a possibility it is not coming across in your interaction with the RCIA team. Just because they may be going too far to one extreme, be careful not to go too far to the other extreme and wind up under valuing God’s love and mercy. If you leave them with the impression that the only thing that matters is doctrine and God’s love is just a bunch of touchy-feely hooey, that’s not good either.

Again, I’m sure you know all this. But be mindful of your interactions that you are not conveying an impression that undervalues God’s love. That’s just going to hurt your chances of accomplishing your goal of doctrinally sound catechesis.

I would hold off on handing out a work sheet – unless you have cleared it with the pastor and/or RCIA director ahead of time. That is only going to cement the director’s negative impression of you and further close her off. Take the long view. If you are starting to use Symbolon, then take comfort in the fact that it is a very solid resource that will adequately explain all these things (we’re using it for RCIA in my parish this year, too). That will make up for the deficiencies in presentation up to this point.

 

[ArchAngeles]

Sorry to hear of your problem. You should be in my RCIA class! It’s wonderful and very orthodox. I think people coming into the Church want the truth and a good RCIA program will provide that along with proper catechesis.

I plan to stay on with the RCIA program after I’m confirmed. I want to do that to help ensure it remains orthodox and traditional in its teaching and material. Perhaps you could step into the RCIA program there?

 

[Joe_5859]

Just another thought, but I think you should take the fact that they plan on using Symbolon as a very encouraging sign. If they were interested in promoting heresy, that is not the resource they would choose to use for RCIA.

Remember, we’re all in different places in our faith journey. Even squishy RCIA directors who have been doing this for 25 years can gradually move towards a recognition of the importance of orthodox doctrine. Don’t assume that change is impossible. All things are possible with God. But pushing her and being confrontational probably won’t be the best approach to lead her along. Be a good witness of the work that God has done in your life, and pull in doctrine whenever you can. That’s going to go further than producing worksheets that clearly explain why you’re right and she’s wrong.

 

[MacQ]

Just another thought, but I think you should take the fact that they plan on using Symbolon as a very encouraging sign. If they were interested in promoting heresy, that is not the resource they would choose to use for RCIA.

Remember, we’re all in different places in our faith journey. Even squishy RCIA directors who have been doing this for 25 years can gradually move towards a recognition of the importance of orthodox doctrine. Don’t assume that change is impossible. All things are possible with God. But pushing her and being confrontational probably won’t be the best approach to lead her along. Be a good witness of the work that God has done in your life, and pull in doctrine whenever you can. That’s going to go further than producing worksheets that clearly explain why you’re right and she’s wrong.

This (and the other post by Joe) is good advice.
It is quite common for a sponsor or visiting catholic to show up at RCIA sessions and want to launch into heavy apologetics (before anyone is ready for that), or have an opinion about pedagogy (be CERTAIN that before they can understand X, they must FIRST learn Y…when in practice, it is paradoxically exactly the opposite).
Often, they are there for their own ego reasons…to show their superior catholicism…(super catholics!)
They end up getting in the way of enquirers, and frankly…annoying most of the people in the room.

I am not saying the OP is one of those, but reinforcing the advice given here to ensure that he is facilitating and not ‘one of those’.

As for the “hippie” business…I think that laying down a foundation of Catholicism being a loving religion is quite important early on, since people coming from other traditions have often viewed it from the outside as ruled based and heavily dogmatic. It is therefore wise not to slam them with dogma when they walk in the door.

 

[Zipply]

OP,

I educated myself on the faith (partially with Catholjc Answers!) before going to RCIA. I had a very similar experience to yours. After many missteps, I figured it out. I lived in a bad diocese, led by a succession of weak bishops. As a result, only weak, ignorant priests were left. They turned the parish ministries over to ignorant lay people. This system is entrenched. You will not easily change it.

Time for a family conference about priorities. I say ‘try to help mom make it to Easter. Ignore what happens in the class.’

 

[Dorothy]

OP,

I educated myself on the faith (partially with Catholjc Answers!) before going to RCIA. I had a very similar experience to yours. After many missteps, I figured it out. I lived in a bad diocese, led by a succession of weak bishops. As a result, only weak, ignorant priests were left. They turned the parish ministries over to ignorant lay people. This system is entrenched. You will not easily change it.

Time for a family conference about priorities. I say ‘try to help mom make it to Easter. Ignore what happens in the class.’

I understand what you are saying.

I do believe that change can be effected, by the grace of God, if all believers pray much, and allow the Lord to effect deep change in us as individuals.

I thank the Lord for the many gifted bishops and priests that we have!

 

[CalCatholic]

Having an interest in catechesis, I looked forward to symbolon and found it interesting…it has proven, however, not very engaging (in fact, many have described it as dreadfully boring) to catechumen.

I had high hopes for it, because it was connected to Fr. Barron, who’s Catholicism series was great!..After 3 episodes of Symbolon, we’ve shelved it and are using Catholicism instead.

I watched a couple of episodes of Symbolon also and came to the same conclusion. Two people sitting and talking through a large part of the program can be boring to some one who is learning about the faith. I also use the Catholicism series and have had a good response!

 

[Joannm]

Thank you for those who gave their opinion about Symbolon. Our parish is considering purchasing it and now I am going to suggest we find out more about it. There is a workshop on it in a few weeks so I just might attend.

As far as catechesis in RCIA goes. Much of RCIA is about conversion to Christ. RICA is basically about those who are not baptized and uncatechized. Those baptized Christians, those who know about Christ and have studied Christianity in some form or another, only need to be in the process (it is NOT a program) as long as necessary. I interviewed a woman just yesterday who was raised a Lutheran. Attended Lutheran schools all her life, married a Catholic, raised her children as Catholic and has embraced Catholicism for over 20 years. She is a daily mass attendee. After speaking to her I told her that after a few meetings we will probably bring her into the Church before Christmas. I also invited her to attend our adult education sessions.

It sounds like the poster, unless he is not baptized, might be in a similar boat to this woman I interviewed. Catechesis in RCIA is not to be so heavy. Paragraph #75 in the RCIA says that catechumens should have an “…appropriate acquaintance with dogmas and precepts, but also to a profound sense of the mystery of salvation…” We are forming disciples, not granting degrees in theology. We introduce people into the faith and after 4 sessions we are not getting into heavy theological questions but learning the basics, introducing them to scripture and basic teachings of the Church. Gradually we get into heavier things, but though the lens of conversion and coming to know Christ.

With regard to the OP’s complaint, many RCIA catechists are volunteers who do not themselves have adequate education in theology, but they love the Lord and want to bring others to Christ. I would not argue during the sessions as that would confuse others. I would bring my concerns to those in charge. Perhaps they can direct you to readings or other resources. but it seems you already have. Perhaps you can take an adult formation class if the parish or diocese offers them. I would not challenge the catechists in class as that could cause more problems. By all means speak to the pastor.

 

[MacQ]

As far as catechesis in RCIA goes. Much of RCIA is about conversion to Christ. RICA is basically about those who are not baptized and uncatechized. Those baptized Christians, those who know about Christ and have studied Christianity in some form or another, only need to be in the process (it is NOT a program) as long as necessary. I interviewed a woman just yesterday who was raised a Lutheran. Attended Lutheran schools all her life, married a Catholic, raised her children as Catholic and has embraced Catholicism for over 20 years. She is a daily mass attendee. After speaking to her I told her that after a few meetings we will probably bring her into the Church before Christmas. I also invited her to attend our adult education sessions.

.

Just a comment here: in my parish, the RCIA group of enquirers in any given year, the majority are already baptized from protestant backgrounds.
They actually have bigger leaps to make to catholicsim than some of the unbaptized.
Paradoxic but true. And it often doesn’t become clear right away…in some cases right before easter.
It’s because many have ingrained ideas that make it hard for them to change It’s harder to change a notion than to adopt a new one. Example: they’ve been taught that scripture says Mary had other children. They often have a hard time with the real presence because it’s different from the communion rites they grew up with. Etc.

The worst case is someone who thinks he already knows it all because he’s been coming to Mass for years.

I would add that the cradle catholics who come along as spouses or sponsors (or just friends) always marvel at how much they learned (and often how many misconceptions they had).

I say this to suggest that you might be cheating some out of learning (not to mention bonding with their companions and the rite at Easter vigil) if you assume they can be fast-tracked.

 

[whatsmyname]

I think the attenders of the RCIA class are fortunate to have you if the leaders are weak in their knowledge or unable to communicate that knowledge intelligibly. They may be generous in volunteering their time and effort, but if they aren’t teaching accurately, they’re doing more harm than good. I also believe my leaders are more the hippie types, and that is so far from my personality that I’ll have a hard time keeping my opinions to myself.

I have to say I am not at all looking forward to RCIA and consider it a trial I must suffer through. I’m not even clear on what it is supposed to be except I’ve been told it won’t teach me much of anything at all about Catholic belief or practice. I have a strong Protestant theology background and I’ve studied Catholicism. I do want to learn more of Catholic theology and Catholic practice, but I’ve been assured that isn’t part of RCIA. So I’m confused as to what it is for. They tell me it is to strengthen my faith, but, while there’s always plenty of room for improvement, I don’t really feel I need a class for that.

It would be a dream come true for me to have someone who would be willing to discuss the difference between doctrine and dogma, but I know that isn’t going to happen at RCIA since they were unable to answer my question a few months ago about whether grave sins and mortal sins are the same or different. My plan is to keep my mouth shut and get through it while continuing my study outside of RCIA. My other two classmates have no religious background whatsoever and are converting to Catholicism to please their respective non-praticing Catholic fiance(e)'s families. I suspect their questions and concerns will be quite different than mine.

 

[eightydeuce82]

I appreciate all the responses so far and i have a few comments to make.

First off I found that many RCIA classes don’t approach the make-up of the class. Some of you have touched on this already. There are already catechized Christians and then there are those who are not baptized and have no faith. Then there are folks like my mom grew up Christian, never baptized, married a catholic, and at 67 are now becoming a catholic. The class is one class and all are being treated equal with no difference between them. This is the issue since you are supposed to separate the two. Symbolon and many of the other RCIA programs are mostly geared to the heathen and not the already catechized Christian. So for the evangelical Christians in the class who probably have more scripture memorized than the instructors they are being treated like a heathen with no faith. That’s a huge deal and the reason why you’re supposed to separate the class.

I understand those here who wish to defend the teachers of RCIA with statements like charitable, non-confrontational, etc…but with the sorry state of catechesis in our country and in the world for that matter is it any surprise that our church gives out statistics like 70% of Catholics don’t believe in the real presence…or the majority of Catholics don’t follow the teachings of the church? I mean really people I get it your being nice and squishy and kind but at what cost? We do make them take an oath that they believe everything the church teaches now don’t we? You do realize that it’s possible to teach properly and be nice and inviting at the same time? Yes Jesus was a great person and he was nice and kind and gentle…but he also flipped over tables and extoled people when they just weren’t getting it!

I think the idea or notion that all is well and just let God do the sorting and all that jazz is probably not the best route. I’m not saying don’t pray on it or don’t ask God for help. What I am saying is God works through men! If those men are providing a watered down false or heretical version of Catholicism then they need to be called out! If charitable then wonderful but if not get over it and correct the problem. Checking the ego at the door is a big help. Let the uncharitable person deal with that sin and you deal with the fact that you are being heretical and not teaching the truth. If it’s conveyed in a bad way then that’s just too bad….I’d say teaching an untruth or a false teaching is worse in the scheme of things.
These people are the front men for the faith if you cannot sell why it is important to become a catholic in 5 sessions then I think we are failing in our mission.

Now some of you have miss judged me as to thinking I want to launch into heavy apologetics…not sure where you got that from my post! If heavy apologetics is expecting a 25 year veteran RCIA director to be able to explain what a Dogma is then I’d hate to sit in your class. Would you expect a deacon to be able to explain that? I’m not asking for them to explain the 255 or so catholic dogmas just give a definition of what one is! Like I said in my original post…if all we can do is tell these people is God is love and that’s why they should be a catholic i think we are doing something wrong. Considering Dogma is what defines what a Christian is I’d say it’s important. Since not believing one of them automatically excommunicates someone I’d say they are even more important.

So I’m just wondering now for those of you who do teach or have taught in the past when is enough enough? When are we going to start taking responsibility for what we have done to our faith? It’s quite obvious that RCIA and faith formation has been a total failure at least for the last 60-70 years. All of the statistics, all of the comments from clergy, and the Vatican can’t be wrong now can they? I suppose you guys think it’s all ok and we can just sit an pray on it and that will be that and it will fix itself. When we know very well that God works through us to accomplish tasks. If we refuse to answer the call to right the ship and just pass the buck back onto God to solve the issue then we are missing the point. That’s the feel I have gotten from many posters on this thread. That you are in the same camp as the teacher of this RCIA class. I find it absolutely deplorable that many of you would just cast me off as “that guy” in the class that’s just making it hard on the teachers. Poor them.

Yet we sit and wonder why so many leave the catholic faith and those that remain are so poorly formed? Really? I always hesitate to post here on these threads because of this very reason. I only find glimmers of hope when I see folks “whatsmyname” comment. I’m not saying that many of you veteran posters do not provide sound orthodox guidance because you do but I really sense that left leaning style in quite a bit that I read on these forums. I seriously hope those of you who have spent time commenting and defending the RCIA program open your eyes to the state of the church and recognize that it’s this way because of poor formation…and that there is a problem. Maybe even do something about it like I’m trying to do.

Now I realize some of you will not like what I have had to say and I’m fully expecting to see another infraction on my tally (since I see you all keep track of that stuff) but understand as we sit right now many people read about Catholicism before they decide to join and what they read generally is what draws them to the faith (not always but sometimes) What I have found is that most people don’t find the Catholicism they read about in practice once they get here and that needs to change and it starts in the RCIA classes. God bless all of you!

 

[Joe_5859]

Eightydeuce82,

I’m sorry that you feel misjudged. I was not really attempting to judge you at all. If I was a bit “harsher” with you, it is only because I sensed that you are a man who prefers forthrightness and that you could take it.

You could very well be correct that your instructor is some heterodox “hippie”, but my main goal was to get you to rethink your assumptions and give her the benefit of the doubt. As Pope Benedict said in the foreword of the first volume of his book “Jesus of Nazareth”, without extending initial good will, there can be no understanding.

I reiterate what I said earlier about them using Symbolon. That is not a program that people would use if their goal is to subvert the Catholic faith. It is extremely doctrinally solid. Are their limitations to using a DVD program? Sure. But I don’t think it’s accurate to say that it is only geared towards “heathen”. There are lots of tidbits pointing out differences between Catholics and Protestants. In my RCIA group this year, all of them are previously baptized (and some have even been attending Church for years). But so far they all love the program and are getting a lot out of it. Even several of the sponsors and team members are getting a lot out of it.

And I agree that separating the candidates and catechumen is a great idea as they are often in such different places. But, practically speaking, that doesn’t work for many parishes. They would then need two teams of people to lead two sets of meetings for an even smaller group. But, yes, the RCIA team needs to factor in where people are coming from in their delivery of the content. Some are better at doing that than others.

I’m not sure why you are trying to turn this into some event of meta significance regarding the forum as a whole and also a commentary on catechesis as a whole over the past 60-70 years. Take it for what it is. Yes, there have certainly been shortcomings in catechesis in that time frame, but calling it a “total failure” is a tad hyperbolic. If it were a total failure, I wouldn’t be posting here. You wouldn’t be posting here. Heck, this forum wouldn’t even exist. The deposit of faith is being handed on and accepted by some, even through the mess and the failures. And I see lots of improvements over the past 20 years. There is still plenty of room for improvement, but it is being worked on. And progress is being made.

And that may play into deficiencies in formation amongst those in your parish. But don’t make the mistake of assuming they cannot possibly know anything because catechesis has failed them completely. That would be a bit presumptuous.

In any case, I hope you stick with it and observe the process, contributing where you can. Again, I would encourage you to take the long view. Even if you are 100% right and everyone else is 100% wrong, you will not make progress if you come across to them as a know-it-all. So stay involved. Observe. And above all pray for guidance from the Spirit to contribute in the best way possible.

God bless!

 

[eightydeuce82]

Symbolon is being used because our priest bought it…not because they “wanted to use it”

I agree with the initial good will statement however there is a difference in good will and just plain weird hippieness.

You forget that christ said he would be with his church till the end so I dont susspect that its going anywhere. What he didnt say was that those sitting in the church would be there because they believe everything or that they are just coming out of tradition…which is the point im trying to make here. It IS a total failure. Of course those that have taken the time to understand the faith or have attended good RCIA programs out there that are doing good things and forming good catholics but those are few and far between these days. So I guess total may be a bit strong ill go with epic instead.

Im also not making assumptions these issues are well documented now and the statistics, every single one, show where the issues are in the church. Of course there are well formed catholics and people who understand the faith quite well in every parish but again the studies show they are few. This is a serious issue and could be one that affects catholocism in the future. We can see how it has affected it today! Are they educated because of self study or because the church whose job is to form catholics did it? Not saying self study is bad.

Now I realize that the programs have restrictions due to the amount of staff. I get that. However, 2000 years of doing this should be able to produce a program that could cater to both simultaniously. Why is there not a Vatican RCIA program? Now I agree we need to be open to everyone but we do not just let anyone in and neither did the first christians in history. We have a process and so did they and not everyone was given access. I dont see that part now its like “well we did what we could come on in…hopefully you will get the truth as you grow”. That is sure leaving alot up to the individual which we know by the statistics dont care to learn much about the faith in general.

So what would you want more…ill formed christians who are sketchy on many of the church teaching in the pews who may or may not disagree with a number of church teaching (recieving communion) or those who have been faithfully formed and truly believe what the church teaches? For me thats a no brainer. And its best for them because they wont approach the alter and violate Pauls warning!

For instance we have an openly gay kid in our class who is interested in becoming a catholic. I think it put everyone back a little. He doesnt know much about the church and frankly I was happy he was there. The others not so much. So lets just assume he goes through the whole process and gets accepted in the church which I hope he does (in full communion with the teaching)…Dont you think knowing what the church teaches about his situation might put him off expecially if he planns to continue in his lifestyle? If we were to tell him upfront heres what we teach and we expect you to live a chaste life It makes me wonder if he would reconsider his decision to become a catholic expecially if he plans on continuing his actions. Or do we open the door completly allow a practicing gay man into the church and let him recieve communion because he completed the program? Remember recieving the eucharist and conformation are apart of the process…thats a tough question but it relates to everything im talking about here…

 

[Joe_5859]

Well, at least your priest is on target if he wants to use Symbolon. In any case, it gives you a something to work from, which is good.

I guess I’m a bit confused about what you’re looking for. You lament that the candidates and catechumen are lumped together, but then you want an official Vatican RCIA program that can be implemented across the board. That would essentially be lumping together everyone in the world who wants to be Catholic.

The Vatican “program” is the rites themselves as put out by the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments back in 1972.

Otherwise, it’s difficult to make the process too uniform. Obviously, RCIA is going to look much, much different in rural Africa as compared to urban United States.

Ultimately, RCIA is about conversion. That’s the entire point. That’s what it is oriented towards. Yes, that involves catechesis, but it is not – at it’s core – merely the dissemination of information. As Pope Benedict said, “Being Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction.” It’s that encounter with Christ that is central.

Certainly, that involves right doctrine. People have a right to the deposit of faith correctly proclaimed. They have a right to know what they are getting into. But how we go about communicating that is important. I would not expect people walking in the door during the inquiry phase to be ready to buy into Catholicism hook, line, and sinker. You cite the example of a young gay man in your class. Certainly, he needs to know what the Church teaches, but the first few weeks is not necessarily the best time to do that. You wouldn’t tell him right up front, “You know, the Catholic Church says acting out on homosexuality is a sin, so you might want to save yourself and us a lot of time and just head out the door.” No, you first lay the groundwork. Who is God? What does He want of you? How does He communicate with us? What is the story of salvation? Who is Jesus? What is the Church?

That’s why I like Symbolon. It starts out with that foundation. If a person doesn’t have that, why would they care what the Church has to say about homosexuality or any of the moral issues?

That’s why RCIA is always referred to as a “process” not a “program.” It isn’t just a class we run people through so they can pass a test and become Catholic. It’s about introducing them to Jesus.

Yes, there have been “epic fails” in catechesis over the past 50+ years. And I think we need to then turn that to be a question for each one of us: What am I going to do about it? Do I just want to lament that and wring my hands? Or do I want to get involved in my parish and be part of the solution?

But don’t think there haven’t also been great successes. I’m not just a “self-taught” Catholic. I came to be converted and study through a strong Catholic community. I know many others who have done so as well. Although, there definitely are a lot of people (particularly with the rise of the internet) who have taken upon themselves to supplement for themselves in light of their own dearth of proper formation. I think it’s sad they’ve had to do that, but I also applaud them for it. Now they get to turn around and give that gift they have received from God to those in their own parishes.

I’m getting a bit long winded and rambling. Sorry about that.

 

[eightydeuce82]

Thanks Joe ill let you know the outcome week 6 coming up…

 

[WilT]

I agree with you. There is a lack of other beautiful aspects of our Faith to learn such as Humility and self control. Yes, there isn’t much strong Catechesis in many classes of RCIA because I believe it is volunteers that help. Times have changed. We no longer have nuns to help us go beyond the basic of our Faith. Also to we must believe in the works of the Holy Spirit that will take place in due time. Beginning classes on basics is a good idea. God is Love and Love is God. Nothing wrong with that. Sometimes as we grow in our Faith we must also learn and show modesty and reservations in speech. That’s Catholic as well.

 

[WilT]

p.s. If you were to grade me on Church’s Dogmas and Doctrines I would fail. I’ve been following closely my faith for over 35 yrs and I prefer to follow the path of the spirit of Catholicism. The Catholic faith is so large and vast that, as the Saints do, only will follow one or two aspects of faith and attempt to master it. If you chose to focus on the Dogmas and Doctrines of the faith…do so, but don’t presume that all others should do the same.

 

[Joe_5859]

Thanks Joe ill let you know the outcome week 6 coming up…

I hope it goes well for you. Not to belabor the point, but I guess what I’m really trying to do is to encourage you to work with the group you have. Do they have shortcomings? Sure. But sometimes you have to make the best of it. Would that every parish had a deep bench of Scott Hahn clones to run every ministry. Most parishes aren’t so blessed. And if you rub the wrong person the wrong way, it can often be difficult to make improvements if everyone just dismisses you as “that guy.”

I guess that’s what I’m really trying to say.