Bad teaching

[Michael_N_1]

This is unfortunately related to my earlier thread, “What must be believed?”.

I just went to Mass. The priest gave a homily where he said among other things:

• The American bishops are taking the wrong view on sexuality – they are saying that certain things are right and wrong, black and white, when life isn’t like that; they should instead focus on the formation of conscience. They are promoting a “poor version of Catholicism”.
• Bishop Olmsted (who excommunicated someone for allowing an abortion) is an “embarrassment to the church” and he “doesn’t understand”. The priest then quoted a ‘professor of moral theology’ who recently came to our Catholic student center as saying that that bishop “should resign”. He went on to say that we should all listen to this professor, because “he’s right and the Church needs to hear it”, despite some of the students who talked with him not liking what he said.
• Today’s Gospel where Jesus says that our righteousness must exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, who followed the law, means that we must go “beyond the law” (i.e. not take the moral law as absolute, because that’s not what God wants from us).

At the end of the homily the congregation burst into applause.

This was distressing to me. I am “Interested in Catholicism” in part because I thought that Catholicism had unity of belief, in contrast to all the problems of protestantism.

Question 1 would be, am I missing something – is my assessment that this homily was not a good thing wrong or uncharitable?
Question 2 is, should I just not go to this chapel/parish?
Question 3, how am I supposed to believe that Catholicism is universal and true and united, when there is such dissent? It seemed just like liberal protestantism.

I then went to a solemn mass with Gregorian chant at another parish, which was within walking distance and conveniently scheduled. It was amazing to see the difference. How can this all be the same thing?

 

[Indyann]

I am so flabbergasted, I don’t know what to say. But it is NOT Catholic teaching. There ARE moral absolutes.

I thank God, that I have never in more thatn 60 years heard such drivel from the pulpit.

I know you are just enquiring, but definitely don’t enquire in that parish!

 

[Julian0404]

If what you described actually occured, then the Bishop will hear of it and deal with it correctly.

But to address your question, this is so “unusual and unbelievable - especially the applause” that it rises to the level of suspision in your telling. I will wait and try to follow on the Catholic news channels to discover if this is reported.

 

[Lancer]

This is unfortunately related to my earlier thread, “What must be believed?”.

I just went to Mass. The priest gave a homily where he said among other things:

• The American bishops are taking the wrong view on sexuality – they are saying that certain things are right and wrong, black and white, when life isn’t like that; they should instead focus on the formation of conscience. They are promoting a “poor version of Catholicism”.
• Bishop Olmsted (who excommunicated someone for allowing an abortion) is an “embarrassment to the church” and he “doesn’t understand”. The priest then quoted a ‘professor of moral theology’ who recently came to our Catholic student center as saying that that bishop “should resign”. He went on to say that we should all listen to this professor, because “he’s right and the Church needs to hear it”, despite some of the students who talked with him not liking what he said.
• Today’s Gospel where Jesus says that our righteousness must exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, who followed the law, means that we must go “beyond the law” (i.e. not take the moral law as absolute, because that’s not what God wants from us).

At the end of the homily the congregation burst into applause.

This was distressing to me. I am “Interested in Catholicism” in part because I thought that Catholicism had unity of belief, in contrast to all the problems of protestantism.

Question 1 would be, am I missing something – is my assessment that this homily was not a good thing wrong or uncharitable?
Question 2 is, should I just not go to this chapel/parish?
Question 3, how am I supposed to believe that Catholicism is universal and true and united, when there is such dissent? It seemed just like liberal protestantism.

I then went to a solemn mass with Gregorian chant at another parish, which was within walking distance and conveniently scheduled. It was amazing to see the difference. How can this all be the same thing?

I don’t believe that you heard the priest correctly…or you must have been in one of those infamous schismatic “Catholic” churches…–(check the sign in front of the church and its website…does it say "Roman"…also the diocese website to see if the church is even listed by the diocese.)–…either that…or you have a local bishop who is “asleep at the wheel” if this is one of his priests and he (the priest) feels “free” to denigrate the USCCB…and his own bishop…let alone the Catholic faith…! The applause is a tell-tale sign that you were not in a Roman Catholic Church!

One thing that I will bet…is that no matter who the priest-church-parish belongs to…I bet you that this so called priest…is @70 yrs old!?

Pax Christi

 

[lbishaw]

If I were you I’d be looking for a different parish. I you find the same thing at the next parish, then keep looking.

 

[Lancer]

This is unfortunately related to my earlier thread, “What must be believed?”.

I just went to Mass. The priest gave a homily where he said among other things:

• The American bishops are taking the wrong view on sexuality – they are saying that certain things are right and wrong, black and white, when life isn’t like that; they should instead focus on the formation of conscience. They are promoting a “poor version of Catholicism”.
• Bishop Olmsted (who excommunicated someone for allowing an abortion) is an “embarrassment to the church” and he “doesn’t understand”. The priest then quoted a ‘professor of moral theology’ who recently came to our Catholic student center as saying that that bishop “should resign”. He went on to say that we should all listen to this professor, because “he’s right and the Church needs to hear it”, despite some of the students who talked with him not liking what he said.
• Today’s Gospel where Jesus says that our righteousness must exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, who followed the law, means that we must go “beyond the law” (i.e. not take the moral law as absolute, because that’s not what God wants from us).

At the end of the homily the congregation burst into applause.

This was distressing to me. I am “Interested in Catholicism” in part because I thought that Catholicism had unity of belief, in contrast to all the problems of protestantism.

Question 1 would be, am I missing something – is my assessment that this homily was not a good thing wrong or uncharitable?
Question 2 is, should I just not go to this chapel/parish?
Question 3, how am I supposed to believe that Catholicism is universal and true and united, when there is such dissent? It seemed just like liberal protestantism.

I then went to a solemn mass with Gregorian chant at another parish, which was within walking distance and conveniently scheduled. It was amazing to see the difference. How can this all be the same thing?

I don’t believe that you heard the priest correctly…or you must have been in one of those infamous schismatic “Catholic” churches…–(check the sign in front of the church and its website…does it say "Roman"…also the diocese website to see if the church is even listed by the diocese.)–…either that…or you have a local bishop who is “asleep at the wheel” if this is one of his priests and he feels “free” to denigrate the USCCB…and his own bishop…let alone the Catholic faith…! The applause is a tell-tale sign that you were not in a Roman Catholic Church!

One thing that I will bet…is that no matter who the church-parish belongs to…I bet you that this so called priest…if you heard him correctly…is @70 yrs old!?

Pax Christi

 

[achmafooma]

Our Priests are human…some of them do horrible things, including bringing scandal on the Church by false teaching (among other things, obviously).

What differentiates the Catholic Church from Protestantism is that we have clear teaching available to us through the Church’s Magisterium. This Priest was teaching error, but he was doing so against the Church’s real teaching. In Methodism (as an example, speaking as a former Methodist), there is a written doctrine but disagreement with it is expected and even encouraged, and the written doctrine can be changed by a simple majority vote at a General Conference. In the Catholic Church, yes, individual Catholics (including Priests) can disagree with the Church and spread errors, but the Church will never accept those errors as its official doctrine. We have Christ’s promise on that (‘the gates of hell shall not prevail against it’).

What is truly unfortunate is that, because of this Priest’s errors and determination to spread them, many people have been potentially led into error…and you’ve been led to question the validity of the true Church…and understandably so!

All I can say is this: please do not let this erroneous teaching color your view of the Church. She is imperfect, yes, as she is an institution run by sinful men…but she is protected from institutionalizing error by the Holy Spirit. I can also say that these things are getting better; the Church is being more cautious in who it accepts into the Priesthood and is slowly becoming more active in preventing these kinds of serious theological errors being preached in our churches.

As Indyann indicated, I hope you will explore Catholicism in a Parish (and with Priests) that take the authority of God and mother Church more seriously. There is room for discussion and debate in the Church, yes, but not on the fundamental theological truths!

God bless you.

 

[Michael_N_1]

Thank you achmafooma for trying to help me see this from the perspective of there being erring men in the inerrant Church. This is something I’m pondering, since I very much want to believe in the Catholicism that I read about.

It’s interesting how many of you doubt that this could have occurred – it must have been a non-catholic church, or else I misheard the message, or else I must be making it up. I don’t believe the first two to be the case, and I’m certainly not making it up. (Although I could have rephrased “i.e. not take the moral law as absolute, because that’s not what God wants from us” as “i.e. not put too much emphasis on the absolute-sounding laws of the Church, because God wants more from us” and that would have been a little more charitable.) Also, he wasn’t denigrating his own bishop, but the one who got into the news and was mentioned in a thread.

I don’t know what the status of this church is – it’s a Catholic chapel associated with a secular university and which attracts large numbers of non-students. It’s not listed on the diocese site, but I imagine that’s because it’s not a real parish. The priest does say “together with (Name) our bishop and Benedict our pope” and the name goes with the diocesan bishop.

Is this really so unbelievable and unusual? Is this kind of thing like one chance out of 100 and I just happened upon it, or is it actually a broader problem?

 

[pablope]

This is unfortunately related to my earlier thread, “What must be believed?”.

I just went to Mass. The priest gave a homily where he said among other things:

• The American bishops are taking the wrong view on sexuality – they are saying that certain things are right and wrong, black and white, when life isn’t like that; they should instead focus on the formation of conscience. They are promoting a “poor version of Catholicism”.
• Bishop Olmsted (who excommunicated someone for allowing an abortion) is an “embarrassment to the church” and he “doesn’t understand”. The priest then quoted a ‘professor of moral theology’ who recently came to our Catholic student center as saying that that bishop “should resign”. He went on to say that we should all listen to this professor, because “he’s right and the Church needs to hear it”, despite some of the students who talked with him not liking what he said.
• Today’s Gospel where Jesus says that our righteousness must exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, who followed the law, means that we must go “beyond the law” (i.e. not take the moral law as absolute, because that’s not what God wants from us).

At the end of the homily the congregation burst into applause.

This was distressing to me. I am “Interested in Catholicism” in part because I thought that Catholicism had unity of belief, in contrast to all the problems of protestantism.

Question 1 would be, am I missing something – is my assessment that this homily was not a good thing wrong or uncharitable?
Question 2 is, should I just not go to this chapel/parish?
Question 3, how am I supposed to believe that Catholicism is universal and true and united, when there is such dissent? It seemed just like liberal protestantism.

I then went to a solemn mass with Gregorian chant at another parish, which was within walking distance and conveniently scheduled. It was amazing to see the difference. How can this all be the same thing?

I will echo what others have said…this may be psuedo Catholic Church, or schismatic one. Double check it by checking the diocesan website, thanks to the internet, it is easy to check. The diocese should also have a list of priests in good standing.

In my years as a Catholic, I have never come across a sermon like this. Sermons are supposed to be about the Gospel and readings for the day. This seems like the railings of somebody with a beef about the Church and Church authority. That is why the CC has a bishop and a hierarchy, so that any disagreements can be properly dealt with. If someone mouths of like this, then the bishop will deal with it.

 

[feargalmac]

Is this really so unbelievable and unusual? Is this kind of thing like one chance out of 100 and I just happened upon it, or is it actually a broader problem?

I wish it was!! Unfortunately I’ve heard pretty much the same here in Ireland. Last year some priests even set up an association where one of their aims is to change the Churches teaching on human sexuality. So far the bishops are either silent or we’re not being informed of their response.

 

[theden]

Thank you achmafooma for trying to help me see this from the perspective of there being erring men in the inerrant Church. This is something I’m pondering, since I very much want to believe in the Catholicism that I read about.

It’s interesting how many of you doubt that this could have occurred – it must have been a non-catholic church, or else I misheard the message, or else I must be making it up. I don’t believe the first two to be the case, and I’m certainly not making it up. (Although I could have rephrased “i.e. not take the moral law as absolute, because that’s not what God wants from us” as “i.e. not put too much emphasis on the absolute-sounding laws of the Church, because God wants more from us” and that would have been a little more charitable.) Also, he wasn’t denigrating his own bishop, but the one who got into the news and was mentioned in a thread.

I don’t know what the status of this church is – it’s a Catholic chapel associated with a secular university and which attracts large numbers of non-students. It’s not listed on the diocese site, but I imagine that’s because it’s not a real parish. The priest does say “together with (Name) our bishop and Benedict our pope” and the name goes with the diocesan bishop.

Is this really so unbelievable and unusual? Is this kind of thing like one chance out of 100 and I just happened upon it, or is it actually a broader problem?

There’s a Catholic Chapel near my house associated with a secular university. I attended there once and was very surprised at how unorthodox it was. I told my wife we are never going back to that parish again. For some reason, parishes associated with secular universities tend to have a more liberal bent. You are probably in college and you like the young crowd but it doesn’t sound like a place for spiritual nourishment if you heard the priest correctly.

 

[pablope]

Thank you achmafooma for trying to help me see this from the perspective of there being erring men in the inerrant Church. This is something I’m pondering, since I very much want to believe in the Catholicism that I read about.

I don’t know what the status of this church is – it’s a Catholic chapel associated with a secular university and which attracts large numbers of non-students. It’s not listed on the diocese site, but I imagine that’s because it’s not a real parish. The priest does say “together with (Name) our bishop and Benedict our pope” and the name goes with the diocesan bishop.

Is this really so unbelievable and unusual? Is this kind of thing like one chance out of 100 and I just happened upon it, or is it actually a broader problem?

Hi, Michael…this is very unusual, to say the least. Usually, Catholic Universities and schools have assigned chaplains. You said this is a secular one, so I am doubtful a little. I would suggest to call up the diocese and ask them who usually says mass at this chapel. It could be also that this chapel is within the jurisdiction of a parish. Again, the diocese will have list of priests in good standing in the diocese, so you can check the priest’s name also.

 

[runningdude]

Thank you achmafooma for trying to help me see this from the perspective of there being erring men in the inerrant Church. This is something I’m pondering, since I very much want to believe in the Catholicism that I read about.

It’s interesting how many of you doubt that this could have occurred – it must have been a non-catholic church, or else I misheard the message, or else I must be making it up. I don’t believe the first two to be the case, and I’m certainly not making it up. (Although I could have rephrased “i.e. not take the moral law as absolute, because that’s not what God wants from us” as “i.e. not put too much emphasis on the absolute-sounding laws of the Church, because God wants more from us” and that would have been a little more charitable.) Also, he wasn’t denigrating his own bishop, but the one who got into the news and was mentioned in a thread.

**I don’t know what the status of this church is – it’s a Catholic chapel associated with a secular university and which attracts large numbers of non-students. It’s not listed on the diocese site, but I imagine that’s because it’s not a real parish. The priest does say “together with (Name) our bishop and Benedict our pope” and the name goes with the diocesan bishop.

Is this really so unbelievable and unusual? Is this kind of thing like one chance out of 100 and I just happened upon it, or is it actually a broader problem?**

Its sounds as though its definitely supposed to be a Catholic Chapel (though its teachings aren’t quite up to snuff ). Its possible that it is run by a religious order (ie. “Munks”) though. Priests who are part of a religious order report to a the head of the order, rather than directly to the bishop, and sometimes there is more room for dissent (though theoretically there shouldn’t be).

My chapel at school had similar problems (though not nearly as extreme), but when the religious orders left and the Bishop of the dioceses supplied his own priests, the somewhat “icky” theology vanished!

 

[jmcrae]

I don’t know what the status of this church is – it’s a Catholic chapel associated with a secular university and which attracts large numbers of non-students. It’s not listed on the diocese site, but I imagine that’s because it’s not a real parish.

No - even the University Community should be listed on the Diocesan web site, probably under the local parish with which it is associated.

If it isn’t, that’s a huge red flag right there.

Is this really so unbelievable and unusual? Is this kind of thing like one chance out of 100 and I just happened upon it, or is it actually a broader problem?

While there are certainly dissident priests out there who say some pretty wild things in private conversation and in Bible Study or RCIA classes, it’s not normal for them to sermonize on their private opinions at Mass - the subject of the homily at Mass is to be the Gospel reading of that Sunday.

The applause is also uncharacteristic of most Catholic congregations - we are taught that applause is forbidden in Church, except when someone has just received an unrepeatable Sacrament, such as Baptism, Confirmation, Ordination, or Marriage.

 

[Michael_N_1]

I will echo what others have said…this may be psuedo Catholic Church, or schismatic one. Double check it by checking the diocesan website, thanks to the internet, it is easy to check. The diocese should also have a list of priests in good standing.

In my years as a Catholic, I have never come across a sermon like this. Sermons are supposed to be about the Gospel and readings for the day. This seems like the railings of somebody with a beef about the Church and Church authority. That is why the CC has a bishop and a hierarchy, so that any disagreements can be properly dealt with. If someone mouths of like this, then the bishop will deal with it.

The priest is listed on the diocese website.

The sermon was supposed to relate to the Gospel because he said the Gospel called us to go beyond the “law”, that to enter the kingdom of heaven we must act according to well-formed conscience and not just follow laws slavishly, like he accused that particular bishop of, and he accused the American bishops in general of teaching to do by giving specific black-and-white prescriptions on sexual ethics. See original post for direct quotes.

 

[Bookcat]

Do not allow such “bad teaching” of a particular Priest who does not think with the Church deter you from the Church.

There are many many who teach what the Church teaches…but yes occasionally you get one who is teaches contrary to what he should…tis sad. But over the centuries…the Church has survived non the less …

One must look to what the Church actually teaches (such as in the Catechism)…one looks to the office of unity…the successor of Peter.

 

[achmafooma]

Is this really so unbelievable and unusual? Is this kind of thing like one chance out of 100 and I just happened upon it, or is it actually a broader problem?

I haven’t [yet?] experienced anything as egregious as what you have described… but I’ve only been a Catholic for two years so far . I’m also very lucky and blessed that my home Parish has two very orthodox Priests, and we also happen to be in a very orthodox Diocese, so this kind of thing would be pretty much un-heard of here.

Even if one of our Priests personally disagreed with some teaching of the Church (which I doubt would happen anyway), I’m confident that he would preach the Church’s position on that subject out of obedience… which is really what ought to happen.

I have a lot of friends and family in a different Diocese, however, and things are a lot more ‘fast and loose’ there. I haven’t heard any blatant teachings against the Church in my visits to several Parishes there, but there seems to be a definite difference in the level of reverence (among both Priests and laity) and the homilies tend to be a bit more vague on the social teachings of the Church.

So in my admittedly-limited experience, there is variance between Parishes and even Dioceses…perhaps more than there ought to be…but what you’ve experienced is pretty rare and unfortunate.

Maybe others can chime in, but I’m wondering if it might be appropriate for you to write a letter to the Bishop’s office stating (in as charitable a way as possible) what happened and how it concerned you as a non-Catholic interested in the faith. Ultimately, the Bishop has responsibility for the Priests in his Diocese and he should at least be made aware that there is a potential problem.

As I said, I’m a relatively new Catholic, so I would defer to others on whether that is appropriate or not in this case .

God bless you!

 

[Saul_DelTarso]

So, I had a like experience in my otherwise conservative and normal parish while ours was in Italy for a month or so. Conservative, that is, until we had a guest priest one Sunday morning. I thought I’m mistakenly walked into a Unity Church for the first time in many many years. The example I quote is only one of many Unity-style references in that mass led by a guy just slightly older than myself, giving credence to my opinion that this was an old hippie type, along with his Birkenstocks with no socks and ponytail.

So, if I ever hear the phrase “Mother Father God” again, among other such non-Catholicisms (as I think of that one in particular) uttered by another priest at Mass, what should I do, besides choke back the vomit, really? Run for the door? Turn on the recorder on my cell phone (politely on no sound mode), or challenge him directly after Mass? Letter to our pastor? Email the Bishop? I don’t see the point in raising the questions with him personally, and I’m just a Candidate, and it seemed it was a one shot gig, but who knows when he’ll come back? Or am I overreacting? All I know is I reacted internally and immediately as though someone had hit me in the stomach when I heard it.

 

[jmcrae]

So, if I ever hear the phrase “Mother Father God” again, among other such non-Catholicisms (as I think of that one in particular) uttered by another priest at Mass, what should I do, besides choke back the vomit, really? Run for the door? Turn on the recorder on my cell phone (politely on no sound mode), or challenge him directly after Mass? Letter to our pastor? Email the Bishop? I don’t see the point in raising the questions with him personally, and I’m just a Candidate, and it seemed it was a one shot gig, but who knows when he’ll come back? Or am I overreacting? All I know is I reacted internally and immediately as though someone had hit me in the stomach when I heard it.

Just mention to your pastor that you hope you never get him again, as a sub, and tell him why if he asks.

 

[Ender]

The priest is listed on the diocese website.

The sermon was supposed to relate to the Gospel because he said the Gospel called us to go beyond the “law”, that to enter the kingdom of heaven we must act according to well-formed conscience and not just follow laws slavishly, like he accused that particular bishop of, and he accused the American bishops in general of teaching to do by giving specific black-and-white prescriptions on sexual ethics. See original post for direct quotes.

Why not address this question to the bishop just as you did here? What the priest said is wrong on any number of levels, not least of which was the implication that our conscience can be at odds with Church teaching and still be well formed and we are thereby justified in rejecting what the Church teaches if we don’t agree with it.

Priests like this (assuming the accuracy of your description) are a menace and the bishop needs to know about him. The bishop may still decide not to do anything but at least you will have done what you could to address the situation.

Ender