Bahá'u'lláh

[Mickey]

And the same can be said about many (if not all) of the great religions!

There is but one great religion. I do not subscribe to your brand of pluralism, so your statement is meaningless to me.

So all I can say is that, as always, ignorance is never a virtue

Amen, brother!

“I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, except through me.” (John 14:6)

 

[vocatio]

Life is short. Use your time constructively and continue to read the Holy Bible and the writings of the Church Fathers.

Interesting, I thought OCA was not a licit Eparchy? I thought it was denied. Maybe I have something wrong.

Anyway, I love the Divine Liturgy. I really want my wife to support me on go the the Eastern Church. I spent my first year of college in a seminary. I ended leaving for reasons that are far to complex to dealve into here. I converted to the Church of Christ before marrying my wife. The CoC is far more conservative about marriages that the Catholic Church. And historically I personally experienced priest abuses that ultimately challenged the core of my faith. I was so despirate to know the truth that I through out the ancient church thinking that it was all made up and with the many historical abuses, sack of Constantine, bad Popes, Priest living with women, etc. I decided that there was no way the Ancient church could be real truthfull, legit, etc. I made the jump while on active duty and access to only a miliitary Jesuit priest that got a “case of the a_s” because I dropped a vocation to the priesthood [that I should have stuck to] for a local Protestant woman. I admit, it did look funny. But he did not know my entire story. I wanted to be a priest that reeled Catholics closer to Christ and Priests into a deeper conversion and boot “bad” or “naughty” priests like I witnessed. It’s a very long story that I really should consider writing a book about. I just don’t want to cause more scandal. The pain of it all is very deep. But it was discovering the ACF that brought me home. I was initially trying to jump to the Orthodox Church. But all of the different Patriarches, getting slaps on the hands by priests, online, jumping on me being Latin Catholic. Some priests and Orthodox Christians telling me to stay where I am, etc., etc. It sounds like the Orthodox Churches have the many problems too. The largest problem that I see from the outside looking in is the fact that many of the American’s that are now Orthodox are Orthodox because there is no way they’d ever be a Catholic, based on bias, not fact. The other issue is that many converts to the Orthodox Church have not truly converted all the way, they lack the culture that is not so Protestant like. In other words, many Orthodox converts hang onto Protestant ideas. Yea that’s right you other people listening. Orthodox are not Protestant. I believe like Pope John Paul the Great said, two lungs of the east and the west. We are truly closer brothers and sisters in Christ.

But as I said, my reading time is cut short not because I don’t read, I read the Liturgy of the Hours or the Divine Office as some still call it. It feeds my soul. I also read my bible. I’m actually supposed to be in a Wednesday night bible class, but I 've had to bow out of actually being present and asked the instructor for the handouts. He have me the entire year’s series. We’re studying the first five books of the scriptures. But we’re doing it in a peculiar way that I’m not accustomed to quite the same. It’s almost a Protestant style non-denomination style. Our church used to study for long periods certain books or topics. But handouts and breaking down into small groups is new. I’ve read the scriptures at least 3 or 4 times through the Old Testaments, not to mention bookoo times through Job, Psalms, Isaiah, Malicaih, and I’ve read the New Testament so many times I’ve lost count. It was Scott Hahn’s Lamb Supper that really hooked me this past year. My Catholic conscience came back like a vortex. It was like I had never left and I realized all that was missing. It’s actually more complex than that. But the point on this post is that I, no we, went through a tremendous conversion this past year. You have to remember that when I left the Catholic Church I was discerning a vocation to the priesthood. I still believe that God is calling me to a deeper commitment. I feel called not just to the diaconate, but to the priesthood. Others around me seem to realize this now, and actually understand that had I not been dealt such a hard hand in life that I’d be a priest right now helping misguided Catholics understand much of what they do not undrestand. I love my wife and 3 children, but I love Christ and his Church more. I’m praying for all of my children to seek vocations to the priesthood and/or religious life as is fit for their gender and calling - Benedictine, Franciscan, Carmelite or Diocesan. I went to a Benedictine Seminary, but my wife and I are considering joining the SFO - Secular Franciscan Order.

cont’d

 

[vocatio]

In a nut shell, the reason I don’t have enough time to expand my reading so fast is that I do read my bible and the Liturgy of the Hours. I also bend over backwards to make it to noon Mass when possible, RCIA as a sponsor and hopeful to work for our Diocese one day, dropping my pursuit for a professional engineering license. I want to serve Christ full-time. I really wanted to be a Preacher when I met and then married my wife. She was so miserable that she wouldn’t support me in my deepest desires. I am struggling with it now. She and her family proselytized me and I’m angry about it now because together they hindered me from pursuing the life of serving Christ’s Church as an ordained priest.

*The “Hours” are second only to the Divine Liturgy/Mass as Catholics have come to know it. Ask your Orthodox Priest if you don’t know about it. The Office usually contains scripure and writing by the Saints and ECFs.

PAX tecum
Mark

 

[arthra]

Thanks for the welcome friends!

“They are more Chardain-ian than Franciscan in perspective.”

I guess we’d have to do some reading to gather more about that. … I like to read Teilhard and have read some about Saint Francis …

Baha’is come from a lot of backgrounds… Many of us have Christian backgrounds at least in the US.

We do share some views I think…

Baha’u’llah lived from around 1817 to 1892 and one of the things He did was encourage Muslims to read the Bible. Baha’is took Bibles to many places in Persia and of course we also encourage Christians to learn more about the Qur’an.

• Art

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings redux!

There are many things to read/learn, but only Christianity is necessary. It covers the spectrum.

The reason we see this differently is that while Christianity does indeed conver the spectrum, it does so with a vewpoint and laws designed for the needs of humanity 2,000 years ago!

To give just two examples, the New Testament both permitted slavery and stifled the expression of women.

IOV the Baha’i Faith is the updated teachings Christ Himself spoke of and promised, directly relevant and possible to apply in THIS age (and impossible to have applied back then because humanity simply wasn’t ready yet, as Jesus said)!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Mickey]

Interesting, I thought OCA was not a licit Eparchy? I thought it was denied. Maybe I have something wrong.

I do not understand what you are saying. The OCA is a canonical Church. I was Byzantine Catholic before my conversion and raised Roman Catholic.

It sounds like the Orthodox Churches have the many problems too.

Christ’s Church is without blemish, but people are sinners.

The largest problem that I see from the outside looking in is the fact that many of the American’s that are now Orthodox are Orthodox because there is no way they’d ever be a Catholic, based on bias, not fact.

You will find bias in all aspects of this world. I converted based on much prayer, study, and discernment—and this is the case with many others.

In other words, many Orthodox converts hang onto Protestant ideas.

Strange comment. 90% of my Orthodox Church were former Catholics. There are no protestant ideas. Orthodoxy does not embrace reformed theology.

I too am discerning a call to the diaconate. Blessings to you on your journey.
smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_1_29.gif

 

[Mickey]

The reason we see this differently is that while Christianity does indeed conver the spectrum, it does so with a vewpoint and laws designed for the needs of humanity 2,000 years ago!

Ludicrous. What God revealed 2000 years ago does not get stale and outdated.

To give just two examples, the New Testament both permitted slavery and stifled the expression of women.

That’s a silly accusation–one that has been refuted many times on these forum–do a search if you please.

Paul told slaves to obey their masters, he made no general defense of slavery as such, anymore than he made a general defense of the pagan government of Rome, which Christians were also instructed to obey despite its injustices (cf. Rom. 13:1-7). He seems simply to have regarded slavery as an intractable part of the social order, an order which he may well have thought would pass away shortly (1 Cor 7:29-31).

Second, Paul told masters to treat their slaves justly and kindly (Eph 6:9; Col 4:1), implying that slaves are not mere property for masters to do with as they please.

the Baha’i Faith is the updated teachings

Indeed!

 

[BruceDLimber]

G’day!
"Bruce:

The reason we see this differently is that while Christianity does indeed conver the spectrum, it does so with a vewpoint and laws designed for the needs of humanity 2,000 years ago!

Ludicrous. What God revealed 2000 years ago does not get stale and outdated.

But what He revealed 3,000 years ago DID?!

You obviously overlook the fact that Christ altered and abolished the laws revealed to the Jews in earlier times! I refer you to the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5 for two clear examples (in addition to others elsewhere).

You can’t have it both ways:

1. 
   *]Either Divine Revelation can NEVER change–which makes Jesus’ changes extremely problematic, to say the least–, or
   *]Divine Revelation can and does change at times, in which case the fact that social laws can be changed by God isn’t a problem…
   We Baha’is recognize option 2.
   
   And as to slavery, OF COURSE Christians now claim it wasn’t permitted back then DESPITE what the Bible said. But there were a good many thousand supposedly Christian slaveholders who argued very strenuously to the contrary only a century and a half ago!
   
   Fortunately, the Baha’i scriptures are abundantly clear about their law now prohibiting slavery, unlike the New Testament.
   
   Q. E. D…
   
   Peace,
   
   Bruce

 

[kashef_0909]

Hello Mickey,

I read what you called ‘Ludicrous’! Very naive of you to do that…being a Christian that is.

We, the believers of Baha’i Faith, will not make such a comment. Why? The reason is simple and clear understanding of the entire situation.

God’s writings have immense power. They are to guide us accordingly for the given situation. As human’s evolve, their needs evolve as well. If we need a different size of clothing to wear at the age of 30, than the size we used to wear at 3, it doesnt mean that the clothing at the age of 3 was ‘Ludicrous’! I will not take your time to explain as to ‘WHY’ I say this (obvious facts)!

To say it in a more theological way, please ponder on the fact that some Old Testament Laws have been annuled by Jesus. How Holy is the Sabbath for the Jews?

I will agree to you with everything good you say about Jesus, Peter and Paul. Afterall Christ Jesus was a Manifestation of God (look into the meaning of it). Peter and Paul were devine and illumined. They behaved according to the time… but in them was shed the same light.

About woman’s rights according to the Bible?..I simply dont want to put it blunt and exact in this place (that is, if you allow me to do so). However, The Baha’i Faith is the only Faith that recognises woman as equal to man (though we recognise the fact that equality does not mean uniformity. This fact is universal, in every case/situation … and extremely scientific).

However, above all, I would recommend you to read the material provided in the following link:
bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/if-you.htm

In here you will find a very interesting topic … for anyone more interested in Christianity and Christ! Here we discuss an interesting matter … The arrival of Jesus in His first coming.

The question is, “Would you have recognised Jesus, had you been a resident of Israel at the time of Christ Jesus?” … does this question ever occur to you? … I think it should, more importantly, the there has been made this Claim (with all the Biblical Prophecies Fulfilled) about the fulfillment of HIS promises. As He calls all men and women to recognise Him. And as He have so many times also mentioned previously … the recognision of Him is the only path towards salvation.

God bless you with knowledge and intelligence.

Thank you,

Kashef.

 

[Mickey]

Fortunately, the Baha’i scriptures are abundantly clear about their law now prohibiting slavery, unlike the New Testament.

The New Tesatament fulfills the Old Testament. I kinda get a kick how you guys come out of the woodwork when a Bahai question is asked here. Your type of pluralism is the modern day heresy. Fortunately, the devout Christians on this forum are wise to the lies of a “faith” that tries to fuse all belief systems into one happy ball of wax–including so called revelations from the false prophet mohamet. I’ve been down this road with you people in the past and I choose not to travel that road again–it is a fruitless path of subtle misiniformation and Scripture twisting.

I urge all devout Christians who may have a curious interest in this cult to read ALL material on the Bahai faith, not just the materials set forth by the Bahai’s themselves.

I shall now exit this thread.
Over and out.

“I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, except through me.” (John 14:6)

 

[arthra]

Hello my friend Mickey…

You know you are of course entitled to your views and I respect you.

A common belief though among some as you’ve expressed:

“Fortunately, the devout Christians on this forum are wise to the lies of a “faith” that tries to fuse all belief systems into one happy ball of wax–including so called revelations from the false prophet mohamet.”

Basically this is a belief that Baha’i Faith is a syncretic movement trying to “fuse all belief systems into one happy ball of wax”, this is not really the case as the uniqueness of Baha’i practises will show… also the Baha’i Writings are unique for this age we live in. Yes we respect the Gospel and it is sometimes quoted…just as there are verses in the Qur’an that are sometimes cited but the vast majority of Baha’i Writings is made up of revelations for this age.

Spiritually we do believe that there is a common Source for all the great religions but over time the Source gets covered up or ignored… and this is why God sends a new Message as you know in the Gospel.

In friendship,

• Art

 

[kashef_0909]

Hello Mickey,

Your response is unfortunate.

I agree that the New Testament is the fulfillment of the Old Testament. As a matter of fact, every succeeding Book in the series of Revelations by God is the fulfillment of the previous Revelation, and the previous Age.

The New Testament mainly follows the laws of the Old Testament, however, Jesus Christ had annuled some laws which he deemed appropriate.

You have been speaking about ‘Devout Christians’. I also urge them to study Baha’i Faith Independently. Baha’i books offer insight to the Baha’i Faith. Ofcourse, you should also read The Bible to verify our teachings! We have no denominations in the Baha’i Faith, and are all under one Governing Body (The Universal House Of Justice, situated on Mount Carmel, in Haifa-Israel).

Where else can a seeker get more information, as adviced by you Mickey? A true seeker seeks light only from God, not you or me. Here, the Writings of Christ Jesus or the Writings of Baha’u’llah, or their appointeds (like Mark, Luke, John, Matthew, Peter, Paul or Abdul Baha and Shoghi Effendi). These are the trust-worthy sources.

Where do you find a twisted prophecy/writing? Please inform me clearly, not just making a mess of your own personality by saying such wayward and obsolete comments.

Again, if by ‘Devout’ you mean a person who believes a Religion to belong to him/her, follows the Religion simply because of his/her ancestory, simply because the friends follow it… simply because its part of his/her tradition now, and promises a status in Society. Then this devotion is nothing but made up of desire!

Religion belongs to nobody but God. We are just followers of His Religion, the way of wife shown by Him. The light of the Sun illumines our homes everyday, it enters and remains in our homes, giving us vision and energy, but does this make this light our own?.. certainly the Light Remains of the Sun, to only return again the next day…and still, eternally remain of the Sun. Whenever we try to grasp it, or close our doors to trap it inside…we only manage darkness…and nothing else but darkness.

Devotion cannot and can never be acheived through material mediums, such as ancestoral tradition, society or community. History and all the Holy Writings are witness to this fact that whenever Religion has dawned on Earth, every Society, Community and Nations have risen against it. The norms of tradition have been annuled, and the Faith of the Faithful tested through all these. Let us also not forget that Society can never be the source of Religion or its fulfillment. Society is dependent, and God is the Omnipotent. Such is the situation, that Society is created anew every Era, and annuled on the End Days of that Era, to give rise to a new day.

I urge Christians to refrain from apposing the Baha’i Faith, or thinking wrong of Baha’u’llah, unless they have made a clear and true study of this Religion, in which, The Bab, is so Gallantly Claimed to be the Second Coming … and Baha’u’llah as the Glory of God. Beware lest you do a great blunder…

However, Mickey (and friends) I urge you to answer me this question: Would you have recognised Jesus Christ if you were present among the Jews of that time when he stood infront? Imagine the situation the Jews might have faced to recognise Him. Still the Jews dont recognise Him. Please read this article, and give me some good replies on it:

bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/if-you.htm

This article is a must read for any Christian, who wants to think that he/she loves Christ.

Lastly, I like this verse from you Mickey:

“I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, except through me.”(John 14:6)

Yes, He is correct. So if He has come back … then how can you come to the Father, except through Him. Before doubting, you should have a heart vacant of the slug of preconceived ideas and ignorant pride.

Happy reading,

Kashef

 

[Ahimsa]

Baha’u’llah is da bomb.

 

[BHTech]

G’day!

You can’t have it both ways:

1. 
   *]Either Divine Revelation can NEVER change–which makes Jesus’ changes extremely problematic, to say the least–, or
   *]Divine Revelation can and does change at times, in which case the fact that social laws can be changed by God isn’t a problem…
   We Baha’is recognize option 2.
   
   Bruce

1. 
   Hello Folks
   
   I’m fairly new here but your comment above Bruce caught my attention. You are claiming that Bahais believe that divine relation can change, but as you probably are well aware that is totally contradictory to Christian doctrine as Catholics (and Christians) in general hold the belief that revelation does not change. Something doctrinal say may have been in kernel form to be later developed by others or may have immediately obvious to men, but revealed truth in of itself does not change. We can better understand it, but God does not change revelation as men change their clothes. In fact I find it somewhat amusing that of the people who have come after Jesus claiming to be messengers and prophets for their respective times, they have in fact carried the message that revelation can change. Jesus never said revelation can change.
   
   On your point #2 social laws is not in dispute between religions. What is of concern to anyone seeking the truth is which religion can claim to be wholly truthful in its claims. To expand on it some more, all religions contains many elements of truths, but not all religions originate from God, nor do they contain all that he has chosen to reveal. The mere fact that different religions teach various things regarding what they believe to be the truth is in of itself proof positive that they can’t all be right.
   
   Finally on your point #1 Jesus came to fulfil the law and in the process he gave us a new commandment with a new emphasis for all of mankind. To love one another as he has loved us.
   
   Blessings
   
   Bhtech

 

[arthra]

Jesus came to fulfil the law and in the process he gave us a new commandment with a new emphasis for all of mankind. To love one another as he has loved us.

With this Baha’is are in full agreement. Jesus understood the intent of the law of Moses better than the scribes and pharisees and He liberated the people from the spiritual stranglehold the priests had on their hearts. They rejected Jesus because they would lose their preferred status in the Temple and the financial and political power this gave them.

What we believe is that in time the revelation of God gets obscured…just as it did before Jesus came and restored it…and a new earth and a new heaven is prophesied meaning that God’s religion continues and be restored.

So just as the old covenant was superceded by the new this is the process that has continued down through the centuries of time.

• Art:thumbsup:

 

[Br_Mark]

I am not a Baha’i; but one of my favorite prayers comes from the Baha’i tradition, and it goes something like this:

“Blessed is the spot, and the house, and the place, and the city, and the heart, and the mountain, and the refuge, and the cave, and the valley, and the land, and the sea, and the island, and the meadow where mention of God hath been made and His praise glorified.”

I believe it would be hard to find a fault with the concepts contained in this prayer.

In the Peace of God,

Br Mark, OSB

 

[BHTech]

He liberated the people from the spiritual stranglehold the priests had on their hearts. They rejected Jesus because they would lose their preferred status in the Temple and the financial and political power this gave them.

I’m afraid I beg to differ with you here for that represents your particular interpretation of Jesus mission on earth. As Christians we believe in original sin (and you guys don’t) and as such Jesus came for the salvation of the whole world because man is incapable of saving himself. Not just the Jews he came too, but Jews and Gentiles alike. He was crucified because he claimed equality with God and in lieu of the fact that the Jews under the yoke of Romans at the time were looking for a messiah/king of the political kind to free them, Jesus did not fit their bill and was more of a threat to the political establishment and masters of the time. Hence his execution, which was all of God’s plan by the way.

What we believe is that in time the revelation of God gets obscured…just as it did before Jesus came and restored it.

Again I beg to differ with you here as Jesus presence on the earth for a mere 33 years was all part of God’s plan to establish a final and lasting covenant with mankind. His arrival on earth was foretold fro centuries before. By saying that relevation was lost that allows anyone to come up afterwards claiming they have found the lost relevation or are the chosen one by God. From 33AD onwards the examples are numerous in history and our Lord foretells of false prophets to come.

As proof again I point the fact that no two so called prophets of God can have two diametrically opposed and contradictory messages. Either they both are wrong or one is right and the other wrong. Logic and reason dictates this.

So just as the old covenant was superceded by the new this is the process that has continued down through the centuries of time.

The old covenant was never down away it. Christians believe that the new covenant lays hidden in the old, and the old covenant was revealed in the new. The old covenant was not tossed aside, they were repeatedly broken by the Jews but God kept making new ones culminating with the covenant of his son in whom the salvation of the world was entrusted. As an example one does not throw out the 10 commandments because they no longer apply.

Blessings

Bhtech

 

[arthra]

Yes Brother Mark…

That prayer is called “Blessed is the Spot” and most Baha’i children have heard it. It’s also often in the front of our Prayer Books.

Hello BHTech!

True we Baha’is are not Calvinists and don’t believe in original sin… Between freewill and predestination there’s an area… Baha’is believe we have freewill and are responsible before God for our actions.

You know that theology has had well over a thousand years to develope in Christianity … I’m unsure if that’s a good thing

We have no Baha’i theologians and maybe never will!

Yes we agree that Jesus coming was prophesied and predicted for centuries before hand.

“Jesus did not fit their bill and was more of a threat to the political establishment and masters of the time. Hence his execution…”

Couldn’t agree more with your assessment!

If you read the Sermon on the Mount you can get a good idea of how Jesus teaches… “You have heard it said… But I say unto you” and so on.

• Art

 

[BHTech]

Hello Art

Pleased to meet you. You said :

You know that theology has had well over a thousand years to develope in Christianity … I’m unsure if that’s a good thing

If I had to hedge my bet on Christianity with its near 2 billion followers versus other religions, there is no doubt in my mind of its divine origin and founder. The same cannot be said for other religions started by many men claiming to be the last prophet or the successor to Jesus or whatever claims they have made in the past near 2000 years.

Given as I mentioned before, the pletoria of religions and religious beliefs abounding on this earth, it is illogical and ill conscieved that they are all right or even a handful of them are correct. Truth is always absolute and never relative.

I have noticed in the past that many religions such as yours like to quote from the Bible as a form of reaffirmation. I’ve heard it from a friend before and it is amusing to say the least. Even the most recent letter by the 138 muslim scholars to the Pope tries to make a case that Islam and Christianity have much in common (love and one God) which is partially truthful but contains many false parts. Oh well I have gotten off the track somewhat, but my point still stands. They both cannot be right!

If you read the Sermon on the Mount you can get a good idea of how Jesus teaches… “You have heard it said… But I say unto you” and so on.

If you understood what Jesus taught and the claims he made, just maybe your theological position would be different.

Blessings

Bhtech

 

[vocatio]

Br Mark, OSB

I went to a Benidictine Seminary. Interesting that you would pick such a prayer as a favorite. It sounds sound to me. But a perfect prayer would actually be addressed to the Father through the Son don’t you think?