Baha'i :"But who do you say that I am?"

[GaryTaylor]

Gary, Baha’i belief is that the soul animates the body but is not within the body. So, your soul is already in the next (spiritual) world…meaning that when your body dies, your soul doesn’t ‘go’ to the next world, it’s already there.

“The soul, like the intellect, is an abstraction. Intelligence does not partake of the quality of space, though it is related to man’s brain. The intellect resides there, but not materially. Search in the brain you will not find the intellect. In the same way though the soul is the resident of the body, it is not to be found in the body.” (‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Divine Philosophy, p. 128)

“Second, the rational soul, meaning the human spirit, does not descend into the body — that is to say, it does not enter it, for descent and entrance are characteristics of bodies, and the rational soul is exempt from this. The spirit never entered this body, so in quitting it, it will not be in need of an abiding-place: no, the spirit is connected with the body, as this light is with this mirror. When the mirror is clear and perfect, the light of the lamp will be apparent in it, and when the mirror becomes covered with dust or breaks, the light will disappear.” (Abdu’l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p. 238)

Hmm,

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CC8QFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.evolutionnews.org%2F2010%2F04%2Fwhat_was_thomas_aquinas_view_o034061.html&ei=lQmKVOCZDsuCgwTuuoGwCA&usg=AFQjCNGf_Tx6nVmKIPMj-a-_T5ImPsGfrQ

Also historic and CCC.

From Genesis:

then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being Gen 2:7.

From the Catechism:
362 The human person, created in the image of God, is a being at once corporeal and spiritual. The biblical account expresses this reality in symbolic language when it affirms that “then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.” Man, whole and entire, is therefore willed by God.

From A Treatise on the Soul (Tertullian)

After settling the origin of the soul, its condition or state comes up next. For when we acknowledge that the soul originates in the breath of God, it follows that we attribute a beginning to it. This Plato, indeed, refuses to assign to it, for he will have the soul to be unborn and unmade. We, however, from the very fact of its having had a beginning, as well as from the nature thereof, teach that it had both birth and creation. And when we ascribe both birth and creation to it, we have made no mistake: for being born, indeed, is one thing, and being made is another,—the former being the term which is best suited to living beings. When distinctions, however, have places and times of their own, they occasionally possess also reciprocity of application among themselves. Thus, the being made admits of being taken in the sense of being brought forth; inasmuch as everything which receives being or existence, in any way whatever, is in fact generated. For the maker may really be called the parent of the thing that is made: in this sense Plato also uses the phraseology. So far, therefore, as concerns our belief in the souls being made or born, the opinion of the philosopher is overthrown by the authority of prophecy even.

 

[Techno2000]

Baha’u’llah uses the same teminology as found in other scriptures in many of His Writings when He describes the Devil, Satan and the like. He also explains that everything in God’s Creation is good—no opposing evil personage exists. Further, that the references to ‘Satan’ and evil spirits in the Holy Books is a description of the human/material nature of man that is constantly at war with his God-given spiritual side. If you mess-up, it’s all on you…no devil to blame.

“Watch over yourselves, for the Evil One is lying in wait, ready to entrap you. Gird yourselves against his wicked devices, and, led by the light of the name of the All-Seeing God, make your escape from the darkness that surroundeth you. Let your vision be world-embracing, rather than confined to your own self. The Evil One is he that hindereth the rise and obstructeth the spiritual progress of the children of men.” --Baha’u’llah, Gleanings, p 94

The Bahá’í Faith does not therefore accept the concept of “original sin” or any related doctrine which considers that people are basically evil or have intrinsically evil elements in their nature. All the forces and faculties within us are God-given and thus potentially beneficial to our spiritual development. In the same way, the Bahá’í teachings deny the existence of Satan, a devil, or an “evil force.” Evil, it is explained, is the absence of good; darkness is the absence of light; cold is the absence of heat.5 Just as the sun is the unique source of all life in a solar system, so ultimately is there only one force or power in the universe, the force we call God.info.bahai.org/article-1-4-0-9.html

 

[Nick44]

Well time is an element of creation, “creation ex nihilo” refers to God creating everything from nothing in which case He existed prior which also the Angelic realm existed prior to mans creation, but still creation thus spirit beings, still after infinite-eternal God. See the implications?

Gary, I understand that that is Catholic belief. That there was a ‘time’ prior to creation, then God created. My understanding of Baha’i belief is that there was never a ‘time’ when the Creator was without His creation. Time is itself a creation, as is eternity. Who can mentally surround such things? Who can envision eternity? Who can envision God and His reality? All above my pay grade.

“O SON OF MAN! My eternity is My creation, I have created it for thee. Make it the garment of thy temple. My unity is My handiwork; I have wrought it for thee; clothe thyself therewith, that thou mayest be to all eternity the revelation of My everlasting being.” --Baha’u’llah, The Hidden Words, #64

 

[Techno2000]

“Watch over yourselves, for the Evil One is lying in wait, ready to entrap you. Gird yourselves against his wicked devices, and, led by the light of the name of the All-Seeing God, make your escape from the darkness that surroundeth you. Let your vision be world-embracing, rather than confined to your own self. The Evil One is he that hindereth the rise and obstructeth the spiritual progress of the children of men.” --Baha’u’llah, Gleanings, p 94

So the Bahá’í Faith wants to have it both ways.

The Bahá’í Faith does not therefore accept the concept of “original sin” or any related doctrine which considers that people are basically evil or have intrinsically evil elements in their nature. All the forces and faculties within us are God-given and thus potentially beneficial to our spiritual development. In the same way, the Bahá’í teachings deny the existence of Satan, a devil, or an “evil force.” Evil, it is explained, is the absence of good; darkness is the absence of light; cold is the absence of heat.5 Just as the sun is the unique source of all life in a solar system, so ultimately is there only one force or power in the universe, the force we call God.info.bahai.org/article-1-4-0-9.html

 

[Nick44]

The Bahá’í Faith does not therefore accept the concept of “original sin” or any related doctrine which considers that people are basically evil or have intrinsically evil elements in their nature. All the forces and faculties within us are God-given and thus potentially beneficial to our spiritual development. In the same way, the Bahá’í teachings deny the existence of Satan, a devil, or an “evil force.” Evil, it is explained, is the absence of good; darkness is the absence of light; cold is the absence of heat.5 Just as the sun is the unique source of all life in a solar system, so ultimately is there only one force or power in the universe, the force we call God.info.bahai.org/article-1-4-0-9.html

Thank you for that, Techno. Totally accurate Baha’i belief. We all start out pure as the wind driven snow, and as we live our lives we decide through our own volition and free agency the actions we will choose and as a result whether we spiritually advance or spiritually retreat.

 

[Techno2000]

Thank you for that, Techno. Totally accurate Baha’i belief. We all start out pure as the wind driven snow, and as we live our lives we decide through our own volition and free agency the actions we will choose and as a result whether we spiritually advance or spiritually retreat.

What does Baha’u’llah mean by this:

“Watch over yourselves, for the Evil One is lying in wait, ready to entrap you. Gird yourselves against his wicked devices, and, led by the light of the name of the All-Seeing God, make your escape from the darkness that surroundeth you. Let your vision be world-embracing, rather than confined to your own self. The Evil One is he that hindereth the rise and obstructeth the spiritual progress of the children of men.” --Baha’u’llah, Gleanings, p 94

 

[Nick44]

What does Baha’u’llah mean by this:

“Watch over yourselves, for the Evil One is lying in wait, ready to entrap you. Gird yourselves against his wicked devices, and, led by the light of the name of the All-Seeing God, make your escape from the darkness that surroundeth you. Let your vision be world-embracing, rather than confined to your own self. The Evil One is he that hindereth the rise and obstructeth the spiritual progress of the children of men.” --Baha’u’llah, Gleanings, p 94

Metaphor for the animal/material side of man that wants to do its own thing and not necessarily what God desires. As I mentioned before, Baha’u’llah at times uses the same words and terminology as found in previous scriptures, but has explained the meaning behind His words. If you read in the above that Baha’u’llah is ascribing a belief in a literal devil (evil one, etc) then you are not understanding His point. Divine literary flourish, as it were.

 

[Techno2000]

Metaphor for the animal/material side of man that wants to do its own thing and not necessarily what God desires. As I mentioned before, Baha’u’llah at times uses the same words and terminology as found in previous scriptures, but has explained the meaning behind His words. If you read in the above that Baha’u’llah is ascribing a belief in a literal devil (evil one, etc) then you are not understanding His point. Divine literary flourish, as it were.

So it is possible for Baha’u’llah to be deceived by Satan,Just because Baha’u’llah said he doesn’t exist doesn’t make it so. The whole point of Devil is to make people believe that he doesn’t exist.

 

[Nick44]

So it is possible for Baha’u’llah to be deceived by Satan,Just because Baha’u’llah said he doesn’t exist doesn’t make it so. The whole point of Devil is to make people believe that he doesn’t exist.

We can just agree that we’ve come to different understandings. Baha’u’llah explains that it is a metaphor, while you hold to a literal meaning.

 

[Techno2000]

We can just agree that we’ve come to different understandings. Baha’u’llah explains that it is a metaphor, while you hold to a literal meaning.

Well of course he would say that Satan was just metaphor, if he was under the influence of Satan.

 

[eddie_too]

perhaps we have made some progress? it seems the bahai who post here are finally able to admit that they believe the successors to the apostles got Jesus’ message mostly, if not all, wrong.

this is a huge step because for a long time they have been writing that they teach the same truths as the RCC teaches.

now everyone can go forward knowing that the bahai believe that the teachings of the RCC should be supplanted by the teachings of Bahaullah.

there reasons for believing this is primarily a result of their ignorance of catholic teachings.

it has been pointed out and repeatedly demonstrated in their posts that they have no idea what the RCC teaches and they have no idea what the sacred scriptures mean.

it is not a fault of theirs except in so far as they persist in ignoring what they have read by educated catholics who also post here.

as for their belief in Bahaullah, until they come up with an easily understood explanation of what a person is missing if they believe Bahaullah was simply a sinful man full of himself, there is no real reason to engage them.

it is the “so what” that the bahai who post here have been unable to provide.

so what if a person does not believe in Bahaullah? what does a person who does not believe in Bahaullah lack as a result of their disbelief? what, if anything, did Bahaullah teach that substantively (by substantively I mean what in the teachings are essential for a human being to know and follow and what are the consequences of not knowing and following this aspect of the teachings) impacts the lives of human beings?

there are many reasons to believe Jesus is who He says He is. the foremost being of course HIs self-sacrifice of His life on the Cross for our salvation and His subsequent bodily Resurrection as evidenced by the empty tomb and the hundreds of people who met with Him after the Crucifixion. also, we can add the thousands of people who have become saints through the graces brought to us through God incarnating as one of us.

without Jesus, no one’s sins are forgiven. to avoid this problem, the bahai say well no one is a sinner. this belief is about the only thing that can keep someone from being saved through the Cross of Christ. that is the problem and danger of the bahai teachings. they prevent sinners from seeking forgiveness.

now if the bahai want to insist that every human act comes from God, I cannot dissuade them with logic or evidence because when confronted with the actions of human beings like mao tse tung or pol pot or joseph stalin or Adolph hitler, the bahai response is that they were not evil actions because there is no such thing as evil.

I of course disagree and I think there are millions of Chinese, Cambodians, Russians and jews who are likely to agree with me that evil is real and human beings do perform evil actions.

now it may happen that after I post this, the bahai will claim that they DO teach in the reality of evil. but, as anyone who has been reading this thread, that would simply be further evidence of their tactic of obfuscation.

it may be that they do not realize how much they employ the tactic of obfuscation. but even they should be able to realize that few people who read their posts have any idea of what the bahai religion teaches beyond the belief that everyone should follow Bahaullah and everyone should work to produce a one world government based upon the teachings of Bahaullah. since these teachings have been promulgated by many other human beings other than Bahaullah, I, for one, have no idea why I should find Bahaullah teaching them to be significant.

 

[Techno2000]

perhaps we have made some progress? it seems the bahai who post here are finally able to admit that they believe the successors to the apostles got Jesus’ message mostly, if not all, wrong.

this is a huge step because for a long time they have been writing that they teach the same truths as the RCC teaches.

now everyone can go forward knowing that the bahai believe that the teachings of the RCC should be supplanted by the teachings of Bahaullah.

there reasons for believing this is primarily a result of their ignorance of catholic teachings.

it has been pointed out and repeatedly demonstrated in their posts that they have no idea what the RCC teaches and they have no idea what the sacred scriptures mean.

it is not a fault of theirs except in so far as they persist in ignoring what they have read by educated catholics who also post here.

as for their belief in Bahaullah, until they come up with an easily understood explanation of what a person is missing if they believe Bahaullah was simply a sinful man full of himself, there is no real reason to engage them.

it is the “so what” that the bahai who post here have been unable to provide.

so what if a person does not believe in Bahaullah? what does a person who does not believe in Bahaullah lack as a result of their disbelief? what, if anything, did Bahaullah teach that substantively (by substantively I mean what in the teachings are essential for a human being to know and follow and what are the consequences of not knowing and following this aspect of the teachings) impacts the lives of human beings?

there are many reasons to believe Jesus is who He says He is. the foremost being of course HIs self-sacrifice of His life on the Cross for our salvation and His subsequent bodily Resurrection as evidenced by the empty tomb and the hundreds of people who met with Him after the Crucifixion. also, we can add the thousands of people who have become saints through the graces brought to us through God incarnating as one of us.

without Jesus, no one’s sins are forgiven. to avoid this problem, the bahai say well no one is a sinner. this belief is about the only thing that can keep someone from being saved through the Cross of Christ. that is the problem and danger of the bahai teachings. they prevent sinners from seeking forgiveness.

now if the bahai want to insist that every human act comes from God, I cannot dissuade them with logic or evidence because when confronted with the actions of human beings like mao tse tung or pol pot or joseph stalin or Adolph hitler, the bahai response is that they were not evil actions because there is no such thing as evil.

I of course disagree and I think there are millions of Chinese, Cambodians, Russians and jews who are likely to agree with me that evil is real and human beings do perform evil actions.

now it may happen that after I post this, the bahai will claim that they DO teach in the reality of evil. but, as anyone who has been reading this thread, that would simply be further evidence of their tactic of obfuscation.

it may be that they do not realize how much they employ the tactic of obfuscation. but even they should be able to realize that few people who read their posts have any idea of what the bahai religion teaches beyond the belief that everyone should follow Bahaullah and everyone should work to produce a one world government based upon the teachings of Bahaullah. since these teachings have been promulgated by many other human beings other than Bahaullah, I, for one, have no idea why I should find Bahaullah teaching them to be significant.

Right, the bad fruit that Baha’u’llah produces is the fact that the teaching of the Baha’i faith is… in no way, shape or form, resembles that of the Judeo-Christian Bible, the only thing they have in common is that they use the word God.

 

[Techno2000]

This is one my Favorite little stories about Hell… I wish the Baha’i people would read it.

olrl.org/doctrine/cry.shtml

 

[arthra]

Techno … It’s interesting you should refer to Fatima… of course I think many of us have heard the story about the children and the apparition of Mary.

Baha’is take no position on this …

See:

bahai-library.com/?file=uhj_sabeans_mary_ufos.html#s2

 

[Techno2000]

Techno … It’s interesting you should refer to Fatima… of course I think many of us have heard the story about the children and the apparition of Mary.

Baha’is take no position on this …

See:

bahai-library.com/?file=uhj_sabeans_mary_ufos.html#s2

This story isn’t about Fatima at all did you read it ?

 

[GuyNextDoor]

Thankyou, and I have been trying to show you where the teachings of the Catechism contradicts the teachings of Paul and Peter. These are the things that I receive no response to…

The Catechism does not contradict the teachings of Paul and Peter, Servant. What contradicts the teachings of Paul and Peter is your choice of interpretation on their teachings.

The research is good for you. You should be grateful God gave you this opportunity, you should resist the complaints!

That’s mean. Its almost as good as me slapping you right across the face and telling you to turn around and give your Baha’u’llah thanks for what I just did. I expected a little more from a Baha’i, Servant.

Exactly, I saw no logic. I am a scientist. Logic is applied to all teachings. It should follow reason and logic. I’m hoping that my science degree has not been given to me as a charity!

Does logic comes from interpreting the writings and teachings of other religions yourself and pitting your own interpretation against the Holy Catholic Church whose very teachings and doctrines came from the first Apostles of Jesus Christ Himself, when you were not even there to begin with when Jesus was with the Apostles? On what grounds does your logic become logic when its claims of being logical is conflicting the logic of everyone else?

No I cannot name one.

I am not surprised by this answer, Servant. Because at the end of the day, Baha’is intend to tell us ALL our teachings and doctrines are wrong and inaccurate so you people can come in and tell us that ONLY Baha’ism teachings are right and accurate. Ironically, you quoted selected doctrines and scriptures that suits your cause, as if our Church doctrines contradicts our scriptures.

My apologies, I would have to go back and read all the Books in this context.

You do that.

 

[GuyNextDoor]

I don’t remember you sharing any Greek passages with me. Either way, I am not interpreting the scriptures, I’m just asking why there are anomalies. I’m begging for reason…

Really now… Have you forgot how I addressed your claims that Paul only taught of spiritual resurrection and not of the body?

As I said, the anomalies came from your stubborn misunderstanding of our Church’s teachings & doctrines. And when each problem you posed to us was answered, you dismissed it and threw a different question altogether at us, instead of addressing it?

Have you attended Catechism and asked your questions there? Or have you assumed that Catechism is too shallow for you and that you are too smart for Catechism?

Here, let this lowly Catechumen who does not find himself too smart for Catechism, which some people tend to assume its courses are only meant for amateurs, address your claims of Paul teachings only of spiritual resurrection and post it again:

There is no concept recognized anywhere for a spirit that is a body, which is not physical. Besides to put it plainly, a spirit or soul is not a body. That’s definitely not the position of the New Testament, Paul, Christianity or even Judaism. To better understand that a body is physical:

Body - the physical structure, including the bones, flesh, and organs, of a person or an animal.

When Paul wrote about the body, he was using “soma” which is the Greek word for:

soma (σῶμα ;body): The body both of men, animals or the bodies of planets and of stars
It is used of a large or small number of men closely united into one society, or family as it were; a social, ethical, mystical body so in the New Testament of the Church that which casts a shadow as distinguished from the shadow itself.

To be Con’t below

 

[GuyNextDoor]

Further evidence is:

53 For this perishable body must put on imperishability, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When this perishable body puts on imperishability, and this mortal body puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will be fulfilled… - 1 Cor 15:50-53

The keyword is PUT ON immortality, I hope you don’t assume we are going to wear our immortal souls outside our body.

Notice how the passages above keep saying that the mortal body under the dominion of sin, subjected to decay must put on immortality, it did not say in anywhere about the soul/spirit has to leave the body in order to be considered resurrected into immortality. You cannot put on anything when Paul explained for you to leave in the first place. Notice also how the passage said the body is sown & raised, Paul didn’t mean sown & swop at all. He means what he means.

So when Paul said that we will be changed, he didn’t say our souls will leave the body. What he meant so clearly to everyone is that our body that which is under the dominion of sin will be changed to a spiritual body that will be under the dominion of the Holy Spirit.

Please address all of the above from the previous posts since you claimed we did not provide you sufficient response. Lets see how you respond here.

Thank you.

 

[GuyNextDoor]

Just so I do not confuse you, when Paul taught about …σπείρεται (speiretai; it is sown) ψυχικόν (psuchikon; a natural) σῶμα (sōma; body,)…he literally meant a natural flesh and blood body with a soul. When he taught…ἐγείρεται (egeiretai; it is raised) πνευματικόν (pneumatikon; a spiritual) σῶμα (sōma; body.)…he also literally meant a body dominated by the Holy Spirit, a spiritualized body, a body which puts on immortality.

 

[GuyNextDoor]

Exactly, I saw no logic. I am a scientist. Logic is applied to all teachings. It should follow reason and logic. I’m hoping that my science degree has not been given to me as a charity!

It’s very simple. For example, I share with you that the Apostles never used the words God the Son, they always use God AND the Son in the same sentence, a lot. Why is that? God IS the Son, not distinct from the Son, according to you. I get little to no response.
.

1 Thessalonians 3:13

**13 May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.
**
Right. So by the power of your science degree, reason and logic, the above passage also have our God and the Father being in the same sentence are two? Based on your logic and reasoning, the Father isn’t God either.

I am starting to think your degree was given to you by charity, unless you address this too.

Please read from Post #175