Baha'i :"But who do you say that I am?"

[Nick44]

Now if the Baha’i want to insist that every human act comes from God, I cannot dissuade them with logic or evidence because when confronted with the actions of human beings like Mao Tse Tung or Pol Pot or Joseph Stalin or Adolph Hitler, the Baha’i response is that they were not evil actions because there is no such thing as evil.

I of course disagree and I think there are millions of Chinese, Cambodians, Russians and Jews who are likely to agree with me that evil is real and human beings do perform evil actions.

Eddie, where did you ever get the idea that Baha’is deny that evil exists? The following should clarify our position for you:

"…lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. – the Lord’s Prayer.
Every Christian knows this famous phrase. Raised as a Christian, I became very familiar with these words. But in the Baha’i writings I found its meaning.

To find that meaning, first one needs to realize that suffering in this physical world has two origins: natural causes and human causes. The first occurs as a result of natural laws–we will call it simply suffering—and the latter results from the free will of human beings. Human-caused suffering we will call evil.

So, according to the Baha’i teachings, what makes something evil? The Baha’i writings answer this tough question in two ways. In the book Some Answered Questions, Abdu’l-Baha addresses the complex topic of evil, beginning by warning that the explanation of the subject is difficult. Then He describes evil as an absence rather than a presence:

“Briefly, the intellectual realities, such as all the qualities and admirable perfections of man, are purely good, and exist. Evil is simply their nonexistence… In the same way, the sensible realities are absolutely good, and evil is due to their nonexistence—that is to say, blindness is the want of sight, deafness is the want of hearing, poverty is the want of wealth”… – Some Answered Questions, p. 263.

“…all that God created He created good. This evil is nothingness; so death is the absence of life… all evils return to nonexistence. Good exists; evil is nonexistent.” – ibid, p. 263.

Abdu’l-Baha presents several analogies to explain the non-existence of evil. He says that blindness exists due to the lack of sight; likewise, evil exists because it represents the absence of good; and the existence of evil is ephemeral, confined to the material world.

Does this mean that evil does not exist? No–it means evil has no existence of its own.

Confused? Let’s try another analogy.

Consider the shadow of an object. That shadow only comes into being in the area where the object obscures light. The shadow has no existence of its own, for without the object there would be no shadow. Therefore we can say that the shadow is non-existent, when compared to the object; however, we cannot deny the existence of the shadow.

On other occasions, Abdu’l-Baha presented answers with a more empirical and symbolic perspective:

“Evil is imperfection. Sin is the state of man in the world of the baser nature, for in nature exist defects such as injustice, tyranny, hatred, hostility, strife… Through education we must free ourselves from these imperfections.” – Paris Talks, p. 177.

“The reality underlying this question is that the evil spirit, Satan or whatever is interpreted as evil, refers to the lower nature in man. This baser nature is symbolized in various ways… God has never created an evil spirit; all such ideas and nomenclature are symbols expressing the mere human or earthly nature of man. It is an essential condition of the soil of earth that thorns, weeds and fruitless trees may grow from it. Relatively speaking, this is evil; it is simply the lower state and baser product of nature.” – The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 293.

One of the Baha’i definitions of evil has a complex, metaphysical approach; the other gives us a simpler and more empirical framework. These complementary answers allowed me to better understand the phrase from the Lord’s Prayer: “…lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.”

The Baha’i approach taught me a new way to think about the problem of evil. Christ admonished his followers to ask God not to let them fall into the temptation of reducing themselves to their lower nature. If we understand evil as our lower nature—revenge, violence, hatred and the like—then we know those characteristics could eventually reduce us to nothingness." (by Marco Oliveira, Bahaiteachings.org)

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Since some Bahais use the word epistemologically as differing from ontologically, I want to ask this question.

Is Hussain epistemologically Jesus but not ontologically Jesus? The Bahais have never been clear on this point and I would like to have a clear answer.

 

[eddie_too]

Evil is imperfection. Sin is the state of man in the world of the baser nature, for in nature exist defects such as injustice, tyranny, hatred, hostility, strife… Through education we must free ourselves from these imperfections." – Paris Talks, p. 177.

I disagree with the above provided to us by a follower of Bahaullah. why do I disagree? for a couple of reasons.

first, I do not think imperfection is evil. the only perfect human being who ever lived is Jesus Christ. because the rest of us are imperfect does not mean we are evil.

second, I do not believe human beings have two natures, such as a base nature and a sublime nature. I believe as Jesus taught that there is only one human nature and it is centered in the human soul. the human soul has the power to choose to do God’s will or to disobey God’s will. to me, evil is when a being with both and intellect and a free will use those two things to act contrary to God’s will. God created the human soul to exist without flaws. however, man through his disobedience introduces flaws in to the human soul and these flaws impact all of reality going forward.

third, I do not believe human beings can free themselves from their inclination toward rejecting God’s will by education. I believe that only grace, God’s life in our soul’s and the affect of God’s will on this world, can allow human beings to transcend their sins and their inclinations to sin.

 

[eddie_too]

"The reality underlying this question is that the evil spirit, Satan or whatever is interpreted as evil, refers to the lower nature in man. This baser nature is symbolized in various ways… God has never created an evil spirit; all such ideas and nomenclature are symbols expressing the mere human or earthly nature of man. It is an essential condition of the soil of earth that thorns, weeds and fruitless trees may grow from it. Relatively speaking, this is evil; it is simply the lower state and baser product of nature." – The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 293.

I disagree with this bahai formulation for several reasons.

first, while it is true God did not create evil spirits. some of the spirits God created chose to disobey Him. this choice defines the evil spirit. once the God created spirit chose to reject God, there was no avenue given them to choose otherwise. so, the concept of “evil spirits” is not a symbol of man’s imperfections that result in the misery of this world. evil spirits are real spiritual beings who live in perpetual rebellion against God, their Creator. evil spirits have access to this world through the human soul. sins can be and sometimes do result from temptations in our souls put there by very real spiritual beings whose very existence is rebellion against God.

second, it is not an essential condition of the soil of earth that thorns, weeds and fruitless trees may grow from it. it was not so in paradise, where the first human couple lived before they were ejected. in paradise, all nature was fruitful and oriented toward accomplishing God’s will. it is only when adam rejects God’s will that evil enters this world.

 

[Nick44]

I believe that only grace, God’s life in our soul’s and the affect of God’s will on this world, can allow human beings to transcend their sins and their inclinations to sin.

On that point we are in agreement Please note the education that the Baha’i Writings speak about is not simply the 2+2=4 kind of education, but concerns learning the spiritual teachings, instructions and modes of conduct that lead one to a holy and fulfilling life; one that is also of service to others.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Eddie, where did you ever get the idea that Baha’is deny that evil exists? The following should clarify our position for you:

"…lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. – the Lord’s Prayer.
Every Christian knows this famous phrase. Raised as a Christian, I became very familiar with these words. But in the Baha’i writings I found its meaning.

No, Nick, what you found was an interpretation of Jesus’ words…and a flawed interpretation at that. I will show you the proper interpretation in a moment.

I shudder to think that you have been ensnared by a false religion due to a misunderstanding of Jesus’ own words, but then - we see in the pages of the New Testament that a lot of people did not understand him.

The Baha’i approach taught me a new way to think about the problem of evil. Christ admonished his followers to ask God not to let them fall into the temptation of reducing themselves to their lower nature. If we understand evil as our lower nature—revenge, violence, hatred and the like—then we know those characteristics could eventually reduce us to nothingness."

Rubbish. Here is what Jesus actually meant when He said, “But deliver us from evil” as explained in the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

VII “BUT DELIVER US FROM EVIL”

2850 The last petition to our Father is also included in Jesus’ prayer: “I am not asking you to take them out of the world, but I ask you to protect them from the evil one.” It touches each of us personally, but it is always “we” who pray, in communion with the whole Church, for the deliverance of the whole human family. The Lord’s Prayer continually opens us to the range of God’s economy of salvation. Our interdependence in the drama of sin and death is turned into solidarity in the Body of Christ, the “communion of saints.”

2851 In this petition, evil is not an abstraction, but refers to a person, Satan, the Evil One, the angel who opposes God. The devil (dia-bolos) is the one who “throws himself across” God’s plan and his work of salvation accomplished in Christ.

2852 “A murderer from the beginning, . . . a liar and the father of lies,” Satan is “the deceiver of the whole world.” Through him sin and death entered the world and by his definitive defeat all creation will be “freed from the corruption of sin and death.” Now “we know that anyone born of God does not sin, but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. We know that we are of God, and the whole world is in the power of the evil one.”

The Lord who has taken away your sin and pardoned your faults also protects you and keeps you from the wiles of your adversary the devil, so that the enemy, who is accustomed to leading into sin, may not surprise you. One who entrusts himself to God does not dread the devil. “If God is for us, who is against us?”

2853 Victory over the “prince of this world” was won once for all at the Hour when Jesus freely gave himself up to death to give us his life. This is the judgment of this world, and the prince of this world is “cast out.” “He pursued the woman” but had no hold on her: the new Eve, “full of grace” of the Holy Spirit, is preserved from sin and the corruption of death (the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of the Most Holy Mother of God, Mary, ever virgin). “Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring.” Therefore the Spirit and the Church pray: “Come, Lord Jesus,” since his coming will deliver us from the Evil One.

2854 When we ask to be delivered from the Evil One, we pray as well to be freed from all evils, present, past, and future, of which he is the author or instigator. In this final petition, the Church brings before the Father all the distress of the world. Along with deliverance from the evils that overwhelm humanity, she implores the precious gift of peace and the grace of perseverance in expectation of Christ’s return By praying in this way, she anticipates in humility of faith the gathering together of everyone and everything in him who has “the keys of Death and Hades,” who “is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Deliver us, Lord, we beseech you, from every evil and grant us peace in our day, so that aided by your mercy we might be ever free from sin and protected from all anxiety, as we await the blessed hope and the coming of our Savior, Jesus Christ.​

So you see, Nick, the snares of this world are sin (our own attraction to things that are displeasing to God - called concupiscence), Satan (a being of unimaginable intelligence who hates God and us) and the temptations of the World (potentially wealth, sex, power, etc).

Jesus was not simply warning us not to behave like our “lower nature” (a Christian might call this our fallen nature, I suppose), but actually teaching us to pray against a malevolent being, Satan, who is intent upon your destruction.

Do you see why Satan would want you to join a group that teaches falsely on this very point?

As the first pope of the Catholic Church wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit:

1 Peter 5:8
8 Be sober, be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking some one to devour.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Evil is imperfection. Sin is the state of man in the world of the baser nature, for in nature exist defects such as injustice, tyranny, hatred, hostility, strife… Through education we must free ourselves from these imperfections." – Paris Talks, p. 177.

I disagree with the above provided to us by a follower of Bahaullah. why do I disagree? for a couple of reasons.

first, I do not think imperfection is evil. the only perfect human being who ever lived is Jesus Christ. because the rest of us are imperfect does not mean we are evil.

second, I do not believe human beings have two natures, such as a base nature and a sublime nature. I believe as Jesus taught that there is only one human nature and it is centered in the human soul. the human soul has the power to choose to do God’s will or to disobey God’s will. to me, evil is when a being with both and intellect and a free will use those two things to act contrary to God’s will. God created the human soul to exist without flaws. however, man through his disobedience introduces flaws in to the human soul and these flaws impact all of reality going forward.

third, I do not believe human beings can free themselves from their inclination toward rejecting God’s will by education. I believe that only grace, God’s life in our soul’s and the affect of God’s will on this world, can allow human beings to transcend their sins and their inclinations to sin.

God has one nature - the divine nature.
Man has one nature - the human nature.
Jesus had two natures - divine and human. He had two wills, also, but He was one person.

Because of the sin of Adam, our human nature is fallen. We tend toward sin; this is known as concupiscence.

Our only solution is acceptance of Jesus Christ: His Blood shed in expiation for our sins, His cross by which we put to death the misdeeds of our flesh, and His name by which we have dominion over the enemy.

But we will not be free of our fallen human nature in this life.

 

[eddie_too]

I reject the bahai teaching that our Creator intended for us to have two natures with one being a “base nature” that causes us to commit evil acts.

I do not believe God, Perfect Being, would ever create something designed to (name removed by moderator)ut evil in to this world.

I do not believe God is the secondary (or the primary cause for that matter) cause of evil in the world.

perhaps, in a most convoluted sense, some who tend toward sophistry might claim that God by giving man free will is the cause of man’s sinful acts. that of course would ignore the very concept of free will as defined by the RCC. free will means that human beings can without influence from God choose evil. we are free and our choices are our own.

just because human beings misused one of God’s greatest gifts, free will, does not mean that God wanted that gift to be misused.

God did not create man to sin. that is my bottom line on this issue and I am sticking to it until I read something more persuasive than the teachings of the RCC. I will not be holding my breath waiting.

 

[Nick44]

I reject the Baha’i teaching.

As is certainly your right to do so, Eddie.

I would like to thank CAF for allowing the Baha’is to enter into these discussions and share ideas and perspectives. I think we can all agree that the subject of God/Religion/Beliefs is endlessly fascinating.

May God Bless Us All.

 

[Randy_Carson]

As is certainly your right to do so, Eddie.

I would like to thank CAF for allowing the Baha’is to enter into these discussions and share ideas and perspectives. I think we can all agree that the subject of God/Religion/Beliefs is endlessly fascinating.

May God Bless Us All.

Post #185, Nick.

 

[Nick44]

Post #185, Nick.

I am familiar with Catholic belief (used to be one) about Satan and devils. Man is responsible for his own actions, good or evil, and doesn’t need an outside evil agency to tempt him into sinful activity. Wasn’t Satan’s #1 sin the sin of pride? As in, “I don’t need God”, or “I can become like God”?

Man is physically an animal that posses an eternal soul. Absent spiritual direction and guidance, the animal part of man has the capability of becoming quite a nasty brute. This ‘spiritual womb’ we presently find ourselves in is God’s bounty to allow us to develop our spiritual natures so that when we physically die we are ‘born’ properly prepared into our next ‘eternal’ spiritual existence.

I find Baha’u’llah’s explanations of Satan in scripture as metaphor for our material side/nature much more compelling than a literal, 100% evil entity that roams the earth tempting souls.

The Devil made me do it! No, YOU chose to do it!

 

[Techno2000]

I am familiar with Catholic belief (used to be one) about Satan and devils. Man is responsible for his own actions, good or evil, and doesn’t need an outside evil agency to tempt him into sinful activity. Wasn’t Satan’s #1 sin the sin of pride? As in, “I don’t need God”, or “I can become like God”?

Man is physically an animal that posses an eternal soul. Absent spiritual direction and guidance, the animal part of man has the capability of becoming quite a nasty brute. This ‘spiritual womb’ we presently find ourselves in is God’s bounty to allow us to develop our spiritual natures so that when we physically die we are ‘born’ properly prepared into our next ‘eternal’ spiritual existence.

I find Baha’u’llah’s explanations of Satan in scripture as metaphor for our material side/nature much more compelling than a literal, 100% evil entity that roams the earth tempting souls.

The Devil made me do it! No, YOU chose to do it!

The Devil can’t make you do it, he can only suggest you do it.God permits Satan to tempt Man with the 7 Capital Vices to see which path a Man wishes to follow… Virtue or Vices .

 

[Randy_Carson]

I am familiar with Catholic belief (used to be one) about Satan and devils. Man is responsible for his own actions, good or evil, and doesn’t need an outside evil agency to tempt him into sinful activity. Wasn’t Satan’s #1 sin the sin of pride? As in, “I don’t need God”, or “I can become like God”?

Man is physically an animal that posses an eternal soul. Absent spiritual direction and guidance, the animal part of man has the capability of becoming quite a nasty brute. This ‘spiritual womb’ we presently find ourselves in is God’s bounty to allow us to develop our spiritual natures so that when we physically die we are ‘born’ properly prepared into our next ‘eternal’ spiritual existence.

I find Baha’u’llah’s explanations of Satan in scripture as metaphor for our material side/nature much more compelling than a literal, 100% evil entity that roams the earth tempting souls.

The Devil made me do it! No, YOU chose to do it!

Um, Nick? If that is your actual understanding of Catholic theology, then you didn’t have much to reject when you decided to chuck it for the false teachings of the Baha’i.

No one is denying that we freely choose to commit the sins. However, Satan IS (and legions that he commands) can present temptations that you might not otherwise face in an effort to get folks to CHOOSE the wrong path to follow.

Like leaving the true Church for a cult.

 

[Techno2000]

Um, Nick? If that is your actual understanding of Catholic theology, then you didn’t have much to reject when you decided to chuck it for the false teachings of the Baha’i.

No one is denying that we freely choose to commit the sins. However, Satan IS (and legions that he commands) can present temptations that you might not otherwise face in an effort to get folks to CHOOSE the wrong path to follow.

Like leaving the true Church for a cult.

The Baha’i Faith seems like a great Religion… one can only win,and never lose, you are just about guaranteed Heaven, what more can one ask for, can you blame him ?

 

[GaryTaylor]

The Baha’i Faith seems like a great Religion… one can only win,and never lose, you are just about guaranteed Heaven, what more can one ask for, can you blame him ?

Nope, you make your own bed in this world. But its suffice to say the path to hell was paved with good intentions. And I don’t think anyone would deny the intentions are good. But will they save your soul. Everything is in that question.