Bahai Claim on Matthew23:39

[GuyNextDoor]

Matthew23:39 - “For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

The way I see it if you look at the above passage and use the following meanings;

Relative reality: that which is observed by the senses, that which changes, that which depends on “other” for its state or condition, that which involves duality. Relative truth: that which can be analyzed, that which is interpreted, that which fits within a context.

It tells me we will get it wrong if we try to work it out before it happens! The event happens and is announced, we then recognize the Person and the Claim and can then and only then state the Blessing.

This view would add clarity to this following meaning;

Absolute reality: that which never changes, that which is eternal, that which is inextricably a part of the all, that which is beyond interpretation and beyond comprehension by minds without infinite vision.

It is only the Absolute Reality that can give the correct answer, it must be made manifest in its own way and explained by its own self. We must accept that Claim and Explanation and this is the only way we can come to terms with it!

That is my unworthy look at it anyway - Regards Tony

I am appalled at the attempt here, Tony.

The only view I see here is your poor attempt of mystifying scriptures and reinterpreting them to whatever you want it to mean. And it definitely does not clarify the selected text that Servant used from the Qur’an to affirm an Absolute Reality. You are using a car dealer’s tactic here: “If you can’t win them, confuse them.”

Surat an Noor 38-39:
That Allah may reward them with the best of what they did, and increase reward for them of His bounty. Allah giveth blessings without stint to whom He will.
But the Unbelievers,- their deeds are like a mirage in sandy deserts, which the man parched with thirst mistakes for water; until when he comes up to it, he finds it to be nothing: But he finds Allah (ever) with him, and Allah will pay him his account: and Allah is swift in taking account.

Perhaps I have not been clear enough, so let me paste the entire passage of Surat an Noor 38-39 here for you once more. Please feel free to mystify, demystify, twist or use any forms of gymnastics on the entire passage above to fit or make the idea of this world not being the Absolute Reality look valid to me, so that any audience here may see what’s being done here & decide for themselves. Don’t divert from it.

GuyNextDoor

 

[Servant19]

Seriously … say something constructive. No one believes Baha’u’llah is a DIVINE STANDARD here except you. Your argument is a nonstarter for a non-Baha’i and you know that very well.

I see you have STARTED using invalid arguments AGAIN. You take the verse out of context, chop off the beginning and end thus changing the meaning of the verse, then try to prove a false statement you had provided.

The verse is speaking about the REWARDS people get in the afterlife. The unbelievers THINK they will be rewarded but when the time comes there will be no reward. This has been likened to a mirage. You try to make it look like Islam believes the world does not have an absolute reality.

My apologies, I guess I must not trust that darn Sunni website. LOL

I simply cut and pasted the quote from the website and assumed the incorrect meaning. You are correct, my bad.

Lets try for a third time hey?

I assume Hasa al-Basri who learned directly from Imam Ali is not an enemy of Shiah Islam?

I pray not.

Here you go. THe full quote this time researched directly from me and not from a Sunni website (heaven forbid !!)

“What is this world but a dream that a sleeper
sees - he delights in it for a few moments, and
then wakes up to face reality” [Hasan al-Basri]

What are your thoughts please dear friend?

.

 

[Servant19]

I would not attempt to refute any Baha’i claims if they did not simply nitpick and pulled scriptural writings from its original context like what Servant did earlier to fit some Baha’i agenda.

I made one mistake. You are making it sound like we do this every day. Please show us where if this is the case.

And each time a Baha’i was caught in the act of misinterpreting, they attribute it to early human errors in the writings and that it should be the Baha’i’s view instead.

Again, please put your money where your mouth is and show us where. If you are referring to our understanding of Buddhist scripture, I asked you before, did the Buddha ever say that His words would NOT go away??
Jesus did, but the Buddha did not, so it is rational and reasonable to state that Buddhist oral tradition has somewhat changed in the several centuries since it was passed down.

I play the game “Chinese whispers” with my children, they understand the idea that oral transmission has frailties. Do you understand this?

How convenient Tony. I rather prefer seeing a more intelligent & honest argument or dialogue as one puts it, not one based on manipulation of the texts.

Its like eating chicken & somehow you tasted a tinge of beef in the chicken and exclaimed “Oh a bull must have copulated with the mother hen, thus the offspring which came from her tasted like…beef & chicken!”. Its either beef or its chicken. I tell you I have no hate for Baha’i but you people need to stop behaving so ridiculously. If you want to pull out a passage to convince someone, don’t ever pull it out of context. It is extremely disrespectful and shows how unlearned the person is who did that.

P.S: Take note that I do not necessarily disagree that this world is not the Absolute Reality, rather I am pointing out the misuse of scriptural writings to fit whatever agendas Servant had in mind. I am pretty open to new things but not through twisting & cropping of any truths.

GuyNextDoor

You may have something in mind that is valid, but I cannot understand why your approach needs to be rude!

.

 

[Jack007]

37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’[c]”

context might clear up things a bit.

1. come in the name of the Lord means do for the Lord. thus the prophets came in the name of the Lord. bahaullah did not actually do for the Lord in the sense he taught heretic doctrine, which is disagreeable to God.

PS i respectfully and charitably disagree with all faiths which take nibbles from the scripture and throw the rest to a country called Invisibilia.

 

[Servant19]

I am appalled at the attempt here, Tony.

The only view I see here is your poor attempt of mystifying scriptures and reinterpreting them to whatever you want it to mean. And it definitely does not clarify the selected text that Servant used from the Qur’an to affirm an Absolute Reality. You are using a car dealer’s tactic here: “If you can’t win them, confuse them.”

Perhaps I have not been clear enough, so let me paste the entire passage of Surat an Noor 38-39 here for you once more. Please feel free to mystify, demystify, twist or use any forms of gymnastics on the entire passage above to fit or make the idea of this world not being the Absolute Reality look valid to me, so that any audience here may see what’s being done here & decide for themselves. Don’t divert from it.

GuyNextDoor

My friend, stop now…you have said enough.

I made an incorrect citation of a quote which had no relevance to the point I was making. I admit that!

Let’s not allow rotten characteristics to start manifesting themselves. We can be more noble than that and show a Christ-like quality called “understanding”

The point that was being made in that this world is a 'Lesser" reality than the world of the Kingdom still stands and I am happy to discuss.

.

 

[Servant19]

PS i respectfully and charitably disagree with all faiths which take nibbles from the scripture and throw the rest to a country called Invisibilia.

With respect, I think all religions, including Christianity do that.



.

 

[GuyNextDoor]

If you are referring to our understanding of Buddhist scripture, I asked you before, did the Buddha ever say that His words would NOT go away??

You may have something in mind that is valid, but I cannot understand why your approach needs to be rude!

I have answered that question of yours in the previous thread before it got closed. Please go back there & read.

1. *Just because I am brutally straightforward & honest when correcting misinterpretations doesn’t make me rude. *
2. Just because I won’t let people get away with misinterpreting scriptures, especially when someone else pops into the picture to attempt to justify the earlier error doesn’t mean I was rude either.

How did you arrive at that statement?

GuyNextDoor;12321922:

I am appalled at the attempt here, Tony.

The only view I see here is your poor attempt of mystifying scriptures and reinterpreting them to whatever you want it to mean. And it definitely does not clarify the selected text that Servant used from the Qur’an to affirm an Absolute Reality. You are using a car dealer’s tactic here: “If you can’t win them, confuse them.”

Perhaps I have not been clear enough, so let me paste the entire passage of Surat an Noor 38-39 here for you once more. Please feel free to mystify, demystify, twist or use any forms of gymnastics on the entire passage above to fit or make the idea of this world not being the Absolute Reality look valid to me, so that any audience here may see what’s being done here & decide for themselves. Don’t divert from it.

My friend, stop now…you have said enough.

I think you have misunderstood what I said. It was not addressed to you but to tony when he attempted to see if he can justify that passage you quoted with whatever gymnastics. Perhaps you assumed that it was addressed to you & felt like I was “attacking” you but it was not so.

The point that was being made in that this world is a 'Lesser" reality than the world of the Kingdom still stands and I am happy to discuss.

And as I said before, I do not necessarily disagree with your view that this world is not the Absolute Reality. It makes some sense to me in certain ways. I am certain you may have read that part too.

I made an incorrect citation of a quote which had no relevance to the point I was making. I admit that!

And that’s really fair enough for me, Servant.

PS i respectfully and charitably disagree with all faiths which take nibbles from the scripture and throw the rest to a country called Invisibilia.

Exactly my point Jack. It is rather disrespectful to the Scriptures of every faith that holds them so dearly.

With respect, I think all religions, including Christianity do that.

Even if that is true, two rights don’t make a wrong. I won’t trust myself to any person who justifies him/herself in such a way. It makes it even worse when someone uses such excuse in order to justify their own deeds when they are trying to convince others of another faith.

You are making it sound like we do this every day. Please show us where if this is the case.

I am not about to go back & search every post & thread made sometime back. You can see from the date I joined that some of these threads have already aged & died due to the lack of responses. For me to resurrect those threads which no one responds to anymore may expose other Christians to those misinterpretations which may affect their spiritual lives.

The reason why I am extremely against people who do gymnastics with Scriptures is simply because my parish & another parish closest to us was harassed by Baha’is who would come to argue their faith while misinterpreting our bible that eg. Jesus was not resurrected, etc… to groups of youth every now & then after our worship services. It started when our parish invited Baha’is to have a couple of inter-faith sessions with our youths but once it was all over and done with, the Baha’is never really left our parish alone ever since for the next several weeks. Our priests had to politely request them to leave but they didn’t quite listen. We had to call the cops several times, a couple arrests had to be made before they finally left us alone. It took us some months to get rid of this “pestilence”.

So pardon me if I am not very trusting. The damage done to several of our youths in the parish is hard to repair. Some left the Church because they do not know what to believe anymore. Do you see the damage caused to these teenagers? That is far from love, I tell you. To cause confusions & plant doubts in the minds of these children, and causing them to leave their spiritual lives behind is very saddening.

“If anyone causes one of these little ones–those who believe in me–to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.” - Matthew 18:6

GuyNextDoor

 

[Servant19]

Even if that is true, two rights don’t make a wrong. I won’t trust myself to any person who justifies him/herself in such a way. It makes it even worse when someone uses such excuse in order to justify their own deeds when they are trying to convince others of another faith.

Well in all honesty I do not believe that the Baha’i Writings do this at all with other Holy Books, and I would be happy to explore anything that you wish to put up for scrutiny.

If you can show me where in the Baha’i Writings it " take nibbles from the scripture and throw the rest to a country called Invisibilia.", then I would be interested to hear.

I can testify that I truly feel that Christianity does this with its own book, the Bible. Christianity says Jesus is God, yet makes an unreasonable attempt to deny the true meaning of “the Father is greater than I”…it claims a physical resurrection and denies the numerous passages where Paul denies anything physical with resurrection at all, its all about the spiritual.

Are “Father is greater than I” and Pauls spiritual resurrections in Invisibilia?

Maybe you can start another thread on these things if you wish to discuss. They are off topic here…

.

 

[Servant19]

I have answered that question of yours in the previous thread before it got closed. Please go back there & read.

1. *Just because I am brutally straightforward & honest when correcting misinterpretations doesn’t make me rude. *
2. Just because I won’t let people get away with misinterpreting scriptures, especially when someone else pops into the picture to attempt to justify the earlier error doesn’t mean I was rude either.

How did you arrive at that statement?

If you say the words “You got busted” to your school teacher/headteacher when they made a mistake, then you have a point. Otherwise that simply shows you are only here to “catch people out”…lacks integrity and in some quarters is very rude.

I think you have misunderstood what I said. It was not addressed to you but to tony when he attempted to see if he can justify that passage you quoted with whatever gymnastics. Perhaps you assumed that it was addressed to you & felt like I was “attacking” you but it was not so.

Maybe that is the case. I will happily let it rest

And as I said before, I do not necessarily disagree with your view that this world is not the Absolute Reality. It makes some sense to me in certain ways. I am certain you may have read that part too.

And so you should focus on that and try to guide the poster towards the Truth, rather than trying to pick on someone who made a mistake. Its just a matter of becoming an empowerer of souls rather than a denigrator of souls.

Exactly my point Jack. It is rather disrespectful to the Scriptures of every faith that holds them so dearly.

Doesn’t Christianity interpret the Torah?
Did Paul himself not call the Law, the “Law of death”?

I am not about to go back & search every post & thread made sometime back. You can see from the date I joined that some of these threads have already aged & died due to the lack of responses. For me to resurrect those threads which no one responds to anymore may expose other Christians to those misinterpretations which may affect their spiritual lives.

Fair enough, but maybe you can point it out to us from now on. Baha’is do not dismiss any part of the Bible and send it to “Invisibilia”

The reason why I am extremely against people who do gymnastics with Scriptures is simply because my parish & another parish closest to us was harassed by Baha’is who would come to argue their faith while misinterpreting our bible that eg. Jesus was not resurrected, etc… to groups of youth every now & then after our worship services. It started when our parish invited Baha’is to have a couple of inter-faith sessions with our youths but once it was all over and done with, the Baha’is never really left our parish alone ever since for the next several weeks. Our priests had to politely request them to leave but they didn’t quite listen. We had to call the cops several times, a couple arrests had to be made before they finally left us alone. It took us some months to get rid of this “pestilence”.

So pardon me if I am not very trusting. The damage done to several of our youths in the parish is hard to repair. Some left the Church because they do not know what to believe anymore. Do you see the damage caused to these teenagers? That is far from love, I tell you. To cause confusions & plant doubts in the minds of these children, and causing them to leave their spiritual lives behind is very saddening.

“If anyone causes one of these little ones–those who believe in me–to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.” - Matthew 18:6

GuyNextDoor

This is sad. Would you mind sharing with us where (which city) this took place please? It goes against Baha’i teaching to do this to the point of police needing to intervene. I will contact th local institution of that city to ask what on earth is going on!

Thank you, just the city and country please.

.

 

[GuyNextDoor]

Well in all honesty I do not believe that the Baha’i Writings do this at all with other Holy Books, and I would be happy to explore anything that you wish to put up for scrutiny.

If you can show me where in the Baha’i Writings it " take nibbles from the scripture and throw the rest to a country called Invisibilia.", then I would be interested to hear.

I can testify that I truly feel that Christianity does this with its own book, the Bible. Christianity says Jesus is God, yet makes an unreasonable attempt to deny the true meaning of “the Father is greater than I”…it claims a physical resurrection and denies the numerous passages where Paul denies anything physical with resurrection at all, its all about the spiritual.

Are “Father is greater than I” and Pauls spiritual resurrections in Invisibilia?

Maybe you can start another thread on these things if you wish to discuss. They are off topic here…

.

You probably misunderstood what I said. I did not say any Baha’u’llah writings are misrepresenting Christians, in all honesty I won’t know simply because I have never read any and won’t bother reading because I have no interest in it. The Baha’is we encountered at the parish have already misinterpreted our scriptures many times so that they can convince our fellow Christians and see if they can convert them. It is enough for me to know I do not need to waste my time.

I totally agree. I will start a new thread after my meal in abit as I contemplate a good start for it. I will post the link here once I am done.

GuyNextDoor

 

[PRmerger]

Busted again, Servant uch:

This was exactly what I meant all along when you kept taking passages out of its original context from scriptural writings of other faiths, then twist & reinterpret the passages in order to prove Baha’i so as to convince people that Baha’i believe the same things that Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Zoroastrian, etc do.

Egg-zactly.

This is one great concern I have with Servant’s posts–he misrepresents my Church’s teachings, while also apparently misrepresenting Bahai teachings, in order to give the illusory view that Bahais believe what Catholics believe.

 

[PRmerger]

PS i respectfully and charitably disagree with all faiths which take nibbles from the scripture and throw the rest to a country called Invisibilia.

Indeed.

 

[PRmerger]

With respect, I think all religions, including Christianity do that.



.

Be careful, Servant. This is closely approaching contempt for Catholicism, something which is not permitted on the CAFs.

Catholicism absolutely DOES NOT PICK AND CHOOSE THE WORD OF GOD. We take the Word of God in its entirety.

I suggest you retract the above comment, smiley face and “with respect” notwithstanding.

 

[GuyNextDoor]

Maybe you can start another thread on these things if you wish to discuss. They are off topic here…

Here we go: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=12322131#post12322131

 

[eddie_too]

I think that terms like absolute and relative reality lend themselves to imprecision.

all of creation is dependent upon its Creator. so, if you mean that almighty God is an absolute reality, you would be right. you would also be right to say that all of creation is a relative reality if by that you mean creation is not its creator.

however, I see little of significance in saying this.

because we humans, as well as the rest of creation, are not the absolute reality does not mean that the created reality has little to no meaning. for a human being, the created reality and the human’s relationship to the created reality is of immense importance because the Creator determined that the free choices made in this created reality will impact His creatures relationship to Himself. the relationship between the Creator and His Creatures is itself a created (relative(?)).

so how important is the relative reality. it is of the utmost importance because it is who each of us is.

since I find the terms relative and absolute when applied to a discussion of reality to be insignificant, I suggest we use the terms subjective and objective reality and define subjective to mean the reality perceived by the fallible and finite human being and objective reality being the reality that exists regardless of how it may be perceived by any individual human being.

I believe this will lead us to a more fruitful discussion. because most of the discussion revolves around the subjective interpretations, understandings and knowledge of objective reality. objective reality is not the same as absolute reality. objective reality is not the same as relative reality. as I pointed out earlier, using the adjectives relative and absolute to define reality really says very little beyond, the creature is not the creator.

 

[peace_at_last]

My apologies, I guess I must not trust that darn Sunni website. LOL

I simply cut and pasted the quote from the website and assumed the incorrect meaning. You are correct, my bad.

Lets try for a third time hey?

I assume Hasa al-Basri who learned directly from Imam Ali is not an enemy of Shiah Islam?

I pray not.

Here you go. THe full quote this time researched directly from me and not from a Sunni website (heaven forbid !!)

What are your thoughts please dear friend?

.

1- Using the words ‘darn’ and ‘heaven forbid’ to describe that Sunni website go against your own lecture.
2-Hasan al-Basri is a well known Sunni Sufi not Shia.
3-Claiming that Hasan al-Basri learned directly from Imam Ali proves nothing (look at all the people who learned directly from Baha’u’llah only to be subsequently labeled as covenant-breakers).

 

[Servant19]

1- Using the words ‘darn’ and ‘heaven forbid’ to describe that Sunni website go against your own lecture.
2-Hasan al-Basri is a well known Sunni Sufi not Shia.
3-Claiming that Hasan al-Basri learned directly from Imam Ali proves nothing (look at all the people who learned directly from Baha’u’llah only to be subsequently labeled as covenant-breakers).

I guess we have differing senses of humour.
I’m assuming you missed the letters LOL in that post.

Anyway I hope you enjoy the only and absolute reality that exists called planet earth.

I leave you in peace (at last)



.

 

[peace_at_last]

I guess we have differing senses of humour.
I’m assuming you missed the letters LOL in that post.

Anyway I hope you enjoy the only and absolute reality that exists called planet earth.

I leave you in peace (at last)



.

It seems that as usual, you have nothing to say.

 

[Servant19]

It seems that as usual, you have nothing to say.

For some reason I feel no love from you
I’m asking you a question therefore

Do you believe that reality is all that is observable by your five human senses?

.

 

[dolphinlove]

It seems that as usual, you have nothing to say.

We all have different beliefs, but when some are challenged, they dont have answers.
Some just want everyone to agree with them without question… hmmmm