Bahai Discussion/Apologetics

[Catholic_Dude]

I came across this group when talking with a fellow Catholic who has a Bahai roommate. I dont know much about them, but I have looked on Bahai.com and Bahai.org and such as well as the very few threads in these forums addressing the issue (the most recent was late 2005).

Anyway from what I can tell here are some significant points I came across:

1)Founded about 160 years ago.

2)Founded by a Persian/Iranian.

3)Calls itself a new and distinct religion, not a break off group.

4)Has their own scriptures and originally “head prophet” with a few successors.

5)They claim there has always been “one religion” with various “messengers of God” progressively revealing this “one religion” over the centuries. The Bahai religion is currently the most perfect revelation or “manifestation” of this “one religion”.

6)Place great emphasis on social issues. (eg eliminate prejudice, equality for women, eliminate poverty, universal education, establish a universal community). This talk was all over the place. They stressed There is talk on “spiritual progression” and concepts of Heaven, but I had to dig for this.

From what I see above it looks to me like they are in fact a break off of Islam but dismiss significant teachings, similar to the LDS in regards to Christianity. Founded on the timeless principles of a new, improved, and final Prophet arriving in town.
It looks like some kind of authority dispute arose after no successor could be appointed and the result was a “governing body” in the 1950s. Further the way it goes on about social issues it is clear to me this is a worldly religion more than anything, though I highly doubt this sort of Universalist ideology came about until the last few decades (though such socialist and liberal concepts were being formed in the 1800s).

As a Catholic multiple things come to mind that quickly dismiss this group as quite basically a false religion founded by a false prophet.

The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus (both fully God and human) it has continued in unbroken succession to this day preaching the same Christian Gospel and that no further prophets will come between then and the unmistakable return of Jesus at the Second Coming.

This presents significant arguments which ultimately expose the Bahai faith as a false religion with its roots in the false idea that all religions basically preach the same thing while virtually dismissing the fact each religion is preaching irreconcilable teachings. As the saying goes, “The Devil is in the details”. Christianity is irreconcilable with Bahaism, Bahaism must essentially claim the Bible is corrupt, that truth is relative, that the teachings of Jesus were either lost or incomplete for the last 2000 years, that there is no Second Coming of Jesus.

**I dont claim to be an expert here, but pointing out what appear to be clear irreconcilable differences is a fair start. Anything short of laying out the details is false ecumenism and borderline if not overt Universalism. I would like any (name removed by moderator)ut as well as any apologetics advice or resources anyone might have to offer. **

 

[Generic_Man]

How does an interest in philanthropy hurt the religion?

 

[Sweeney]

I encountered the Baha’i “Faith”, as they like to refer to it, when I was in college in the early '70’s. I had a friends who was from a Baha’i family - we went to see Seals & Crofts, and ended up back at their hotel, in the lounge drinking pop and tea, discussing the Faith from Jimmy and Dash and a group of local Baha’i’s.

I read some of their books, especially those by Baha’u’llah, their founder. The Baha’s faith is an offshoot of Shiite Islam from Iran, though it claims to be a seperate and distinct religion. They claim to believe that all religion is one, and all prophets, like Buddha, Jesus and Mohammed preached essentially the same message, but thet Baha’u’llah is the final prophet. I thought this was akin to spiritual insurance, sort of believing in everything, just in case.. After Baha’u’llah died, his son became the leader, then his grandson. Since I guess they ran out of relatives, they are ruled now by some sort of supreme council located in Israel. The Iranians really hate them.

They don’t really make any attempt to recruit members, probably why they are so few in numbers. They don’t have any clergy or worship rituals, but meet regularly for a “Feast”, where they take turns reading their scripture and praying.

 

[Genesis315]

The Baha’i’ faith is scary in that it seeks to solve the world’s problems by watering down religious differences. It reminds of the phrase from the Catechism concerning the myetery of iniquity: “a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth.” It seems to me like a religion the Antichrist might rise out of.

 

[RedSoxFan]

The Baha’i’ faith is scary in that it seeks to solve the world’s problems by watering down religious differences. It reminds of the phrase from the Catechism concerning the myetery of iniquity: “a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth.” It seems to me like a religion the Antichrist might rise out of.

I myself can’t picture the anti-christ comming out of this religion anymore than I can picture the Anti-Christ being a Hari-Khrisna (spelling?). It would make me laugh a whole lot harder than I already do at the anti-Christ. I mean a chicken would be more intimidating Anti-Christ than a Ba’hai member. I always kinda pictured the Anti-Christ running around in furry chaps and and trying to seem intimidating.
Still this religion leads many people astray. I just don’t understand what people who join this religion are thinking.

 

[DaveBj]

I was a Baha’i for two years before my major Christian conversion in '76. At the time I thought it was the answer to all the world’s problems, but the more I experienced it, the more disenchanted I became with their lack of local organization. A big factor was the fact that what they called their most important book, Kitab-e-Aqdas, had no official English translation. There was what was considered to be a good translation on the market, but it was by a fluent-in-Farsi anti-Baha’i American, and Baha’is were forbidden to read it.

Two decades down the line, our insurance agent in MD turned out to be Baha’i. He told me there now is an official translation, and he said he’d give me a copy, but he never did.

The Baha’i “scriptures” were for the most part written in Farsi, some (I think) in Arabic, and the translation is very flowery English, sometimes kinda hard to get thru.

FWIW, the name Baha’ullah is Arabic for “Glory of God.” His son’s name was `Abd-ul-Baha’, or “Servant of the Glory.” The grandson was Shoghi Effendi, which sounds Turkish to me.

Thankfully, I have forgotten most of what I knew about the Baha’i faith.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

How does an interest in philanthropy hurt the religion?

The previous religions and prophets which the Bahai claim to be successors of did not put their emphasis on philantropy. The philantropy aspect as described on the Bahai sites are one step above the secular humanist religion where the primary goal is about caring for fellow humans but God and salvation of souls is not really in the picture.

I myself can’t picture the anti-christ comming out of this religion anymore than I can picture the Anti-Christ being a Hari-Khrisna (spelling?). It would make me laugh a whole lot harder than I already do at the anti-Christ. I mean a chicken would be more intimidating Anti-Christ than a Ba’hai member. I always kinda pictured the Anti-Christ running around in furry chaps and and trying to seem intimidating.
Still this religion leads many people astray. I just don’t understand what people who join this religion are thinking.

There are two usages of “anti-Christ” in the Bible, one is of a ultimate global figure who will deceive great numbers, the other usage is of the MANY false prophets who would come down the road and hold essentially the same idea that Jesus was a good man but not the only Son of God come in the flesh:22Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
-1 Jn 2

1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
-1 Jn 4

3Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Father’s Son, will be with us in truth and love. … …
7Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.
-2 Jn 1

 

[kashef_0909]

Hello everyone,

Interesting to see all the half truth and full misunderstandings… however… everyone have their views… but the views rather not be misdirected. Lets keep the facts straight:

1. Baha’i faith is just as Independent from Islam, as Christianity is from Judaism!
   Baha’i faith is actually in many ways more distinct due to the fact that it has its own Holy Book of laws and ordiances. Of the way of life, soul and morality. The book is not called ‘The New Quran’, instead is called ‘Kitab-i-Aqdas (The Most Holy Book)’.
   This should be clear now, as the Christian doctrine is often regarded as the ‘New Testament’ with the Bible as the ‘Old Testament’. Although this doesnt creat any tendency of confusion in me, but reading after this thread, I felt like clarifying the situation!
2. The founder of the Baha’i Faith was The Bab (the forerunner of Baha’u’llah) and Baha’u’llah. The former in english would be ‘The Gate’ and the latter ‘The Glory of God’.
3. The Baha’i faith started in the mid 19th century (1844 A.D.). The Bab (forerunner of Baha’u’llah) declared his mission on May 23rd, 1844. After which, he gained thousands of followers from Iran (also mystics from India came in search of Him and accepted the faith). Such was the rise of this religion that He had to be executed by a 750 gunmen firing squad. This also accompanied the torterous killing of more than 20,000 of His followers (often nailed alive to the ground). The Bab’s main teaching was in view of the coming revelation, which He prophecised as 'A dispensation far greater then His own).
4. After 19 years of His dispensation, Baha’u’llah declared His position as the Appointed one… who has come as the ‘Glory of the Father’ … fulfilling an important promise of Christ:
   “For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he shall reward every man according to his works”. Matthew 16:27
5. Regarding the Prophecies in the Old and New Testaments about the timing, the situation and the criteria of the Promised One of All Ages… if you are sincere and want to investigate…Just Ask me!.. Investigate independently…

To know truth you have to empty yourself from the preconceived notions of your own desired and imagination. Of the knowledge which breed in selfish ponds. To drink from the fountain of immortality, you must seek God. To seek God, you must open the closed windows of your heart and mind… without that…the Glory of the Sun of Truth can never enter… no matter which religion of belief you are into.

I am open to all your inquiries in a legitimate and sane manner. Do not hesitate to ask anything at all.

1. Regarding the ‘False Prophet Issue’, as warned in Matthew Chapter 24… please concentrate on the criteria followed by the false Prophet. You will realise the clearly written criteria: Its written that they will come and call themselves in Christs name.
   Such false prophets came in the past. But couldnt fulfill any other prohecies…just took His name for themselves…
   The Bab (the Second coming of the Christ) has fulfilled all the promises, and was not using Christ’s name. He was called ‘The Bab’, and was the Massiah (which is an Arabic term for any Prophet…and another term for a revelor is the ‘Saviour’ in the ENTIRE east).
2. Closely read the Three Promises which must needs be fulfilled for the coming of the next Manifestation. All three have been fulfilled (in plain words).
3. Why didnt people believe?..well… Why didnt people believe Jesus in the largest numbers when He revealed His mission??

The Bible (New Testament) was only completed by the time 100 A.D. (this is the time when Matthew, Mark, Luke and John’s Gospels were written). For 300 years after the Crucification of Jesus, the Christian faith suffered immensely both in the hands of the Jews and the Gentiles… only after the acceptance of the faith by the Roman Emperor Constantine on 312 A.D. , the Christian mission got some kind of a momentum…which eventually help them spread around slowly. It was only on the year 1844 A.D when the British and Foreighn Bible Scholars group declared that the Gospel have reached every corner of earth (Source: famous British and the Foreign Bible Society biblesociety.org.uk/l3.php?id=141 ).

This slow start of the Christian Faith is way much slower than the Baha’i faith…which is actually the second fastest growing religion in the world (was the fastest growing religion in the 60’s… and is predicted to catch up on the 2010’s, and remain there).

Shall I give the prophecies here?.. I let some responses come first to this one!

Show me one single reason, why you can say that the Baha’i faith is not the faith promised in the Bible or any other religious Book!.. and I will answer (in logical and scientific…and very precise manner).

Thank you,

Kashef.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Thank you for responding Kashef.

I have some questions for you regarding some of what you said:

1)You said it started around 1844. What was the “true religion” before this time?

2)You said he called himself the “Appointed one” yet for that to have any significance means such a concept would have had to have been introduced years earlier. You said you had information reconciling all this from prophecy in the Old and New Testament, I as well as others would like to see your evidence.

1. The Bab (the Second coming of the Christ) has fulfilled all the promises, and was not using Christ’s name. Show us what promises that were fulfilled. Just so you know the Second Coming involves the END of the world, NOT another prophet with another message and new set of Scriptures. The Second Coming will be UNMISTAKABLE, Jesus will literally appear in the sky and visible to all men.

4)List the “Three Promises” and how they were fulfilled.

5)You said:
It was only on the year 1844 A.D when the British and Foreign Bible Scholars group declared that the Gospel have reached every corner of earth
That is a pretty big, yet weak, claim.

6)You said:
Show me one single reason, why you can say that the Baha’i faith is not the faith promised in the Bible or any other religious Book!.. and I will answer (in logical and scientific…and very precise manner).
That is pretty simple. The Second Coming is the END of time, when Jesus comes it will be from Heaven for all eyes to see and in which will result in the Final Judgment of all men.

 

[Abraxsis]

Some other things I learned from my Bahai friend in our discussions.

Bahai’s reject the resurrection of Christ. They view his death and resurrection as a spiritual or symbolic thing ONLY.

Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed are all just ‘messangers’ of God, a herald until the true prophet Bahaula came.

They see their founder Bahaula as the second coming of Jesus.

Muslims will hate them them because they lower the status of Mohammed as God prophet and to Christians cheapening the death and resurrection of Christ just doesnt seem right.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Some other things I learned from my Bahai friend in our discussions.

Bahai’s reject the resurrection of Christ. They view his death and resurrection as a spiritual or symbolic thing ONLY.

Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed are all just ‘messangers’ of God, a herald until the true prophet Bahaula came.

They see their founder Bahaula as the second coming of Jesus.

Muslims will hate them them because they lower the status of Mohammed as God prophet and to Christians cheapening the death and resurrection of Christ just doesnt seem right.

That resurrection information is very important to know, if they dont believe Jesus rose from the dead then that is another nail in their coffin in my mind.

 

[kashef_0909]

Dear friends,

Let me first thank you that you have shown some kind of interest. However know that the true discussion is possible only when you cleanse yourself from the pro-conceived ideas, and open your mind to logic and true understanding.

For the first question: The starting of the Baha’i faith was after the Declaration of The Bab on 23rd May 1844. Baha’is believe that religion is progressive according to the needs of the times (in Matthew Chapter no. 16, Christ is talking about a similar situation in His time… quotation is provided below for a vide range of discussion). We believe that every Manifestation of God is equal, and their Spirit is the Holy Ghost! They only reveal as much as is needed/required/prescribable for that time:

John Chapter 16, Verse 12
”I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.”

Here I will not go into another topic from here on. About the Baha’i view on other Manifestations before its Dispensation, we can discuss this after we reach a position where the relation of Baha’i faith and Christianity is put forward by me, with respect to all your questions. You all can wait for the next discussion (which can be in this topic) or go to www.bahai.org for additional subjects (e.g. this one).

We all know that Jesus used to talk in ‘parables’ most of the time. Which means, He used to explain common/sensitive and the biggest matters in simple ways through parables. A parable is a simple story illustrating a moral or religious lesson, essentially in exemplary stories. In so many places Jesus has used parables to explain, that just one example is not just (because I can open the whole New Testament and show it everywhere… and anyone who have read the New Testament will know that it is everywhere); anyways:

Matthew Chapter 16, Verse 1-12
“The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would show them a sign from heaven. He answered and said unto them, when it is evening, ye say, it will be fair weather: for the sky is red. And in the morning, it will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed. And when his disciples were come to the other side, they had forgotten to take bread. Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. And they reasoned among themselves, saying, it is because we have taken no bread. Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread? Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets ye took up? Neither the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many baskets ye took up? How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees? Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.”

Concentrate how Jesus makes the reality of the parables clear. In these verses so many things have been clarified. True understanding is always for them who have true faith. And true faith belongs to the enlightened. Remember that there are two kinds of knowledge: Devine and Satanic. The one welleth out from the fountain of divine inspiration; the other is but a reflection of vain and obscure thoughts. The source of the former is God Himself; the motive-force of the latter the whisperings of the selfish desire. The one is guided by the principle: “Fear ye God; God will teach you;” the other is but a confirmation of the truth: “Knowledge is the most grievous veil between man and his Creator.” The former bringeth forth the fruit of patience, of longing desire, of true understanding, and love; whilst the latter can yield naught but arrogance, vainglory and conceit. From the sayings of those Masters of holy utterance, who have expounded the meaning of true knowledge, the odor of these dark teachings, which have obscured the world, can in no wise be detected. The tree of such teachings can yield no result except iniquity and rebellion, and beareth no fruit buy hatred and envy. Its fruit is deadly poison; its shadow is consuming fire.

… How wonderfully we can relate this situation to this poem:
”Cling unto the robe of the Desire of thy heart,
put thou away all shame;
bid the worldly-wise be gone,
however great their name… “

(Continued…)

 

[kashef_0909]

And how well Jesus describes it Himself:
Matthew Chapter 23, Verse 9-10
“And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.”

And in another place, he explains the Spirit and His Physical self as…

John Chapter 3, Verse 5-6
”Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”

Further to this:

Luke Chapter 4, Verse 1
“And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness”
Luke Chapter 4, Verse 14
”And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about. “
Luke Chapter 4, Verse 18
:The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised”
And remember when He was crucified…:

Luke Chapter 23, Verse 46
”And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.”

Now let us come in terms with the ‘RESURRECTION”:

As from the above, a just soul can verily deduce that the resurrections of the Divine Manifestations are not of the body. All Their states, Their conditions, Their acts, the things They have established, Their teachings, Their expressions, Their parables and Their instructions have a spiritual and divine signification, and have no connection with material things. For example, there is the subject of Christ’s coming from heaven: it is clearly stated in many places in the Gospel that the Son of man came from heaven, He is in heaven, and He will go to heaven.

John Chapter 6, Verse 38
“For I came down from heaven”
John Chapter 6, Verse 42 … we find people questioning (same was some people question Baha’is in this New Dawn)
“And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?”

Also,
John Chapter 3, Verse 13
“And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”
So a just heart will observe that it is said, “The Son of man is in heaven,” while at that time Christ was on earth. Notice also that it is said that Christ came from heaven, though He came from the womb of Mary, and His body was born of Mary. It is clear, then, that when it is said that the Son of man is come from heaven, this has not an outward but an inward signification; it is a spiritual, not a material, fact. The meaning is that though, apparently, Christ was born from the womb of Mary, in reality He came from heaven, from the center of the Sun of Reality, from the Divine World, and the Spiritual Kingdom. And as it has become evident that Christ came from the spiritual heaven of the Divine Kingdom, therefore, His disappearance under the earth for three days has an inner signification and is not an outward fact. In the same way, His resurrection from the interior of the earth is also symbolical; it is a spiritual and divine fact, and not material; and likewise His ascension to heaven is a spiritual and not material ascension.
Beside these explanations, it has been established and proved by science that the visible heaven is a limitless area, void and empty, where innumerable stars and planets revolve.
Therefore, it can be said that the meaning of Christ’s resurrection is as follows: the disciples were troubled and agitated after the martyrdom of Christ. The Reality of Christ, which signifies His teachings, His bounties, His perfections and His spiritual power, was hidden and concealed for two or three days after His martyrdom, and was not resplendent and manifest. No, rather it was lost, for the believers were few in number and were troubled and agitated. The Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body; and when after three days the disciples became assured and steadfast, and began to serve the Cause of Christ, and resolved to spread the divine teachings, putting His counsels into practice, and arising to serve Him, the Reality of Christ became resplendent and His bounty appeared; His religion found life; His teachings and His admonitions became evident and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it.

(Continued…)

 

[kashef_0909]

Such is the meaning of the resurrection of Christ, and this was a true resurrection. But as the clergy have neither understood the meaning of the Gospels nor comprehended the symbols, therefore, it has been said that religion is in contradiction to science, and science in opposition to religion, as, for example, this subject of the ascension of Christ with an elemental body to the visible heaven is contrary to the science of mathematics. But when the truth of this subject becomes clear, and the symbol is explained, science in no way contradicts it; but, on the contrary, science and the intelligence affirm it.

With a soft and fertile heart, let one who has eye see,

Romans Chapter6, Verse 4
”Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”

Is it not evident that we are talking about the faith here, which is the life of the spirit!

Now concerning The Bab and the Prophecies regarding the Second Coming:

Know that it is The Bab who is regarded as the fulfillment of the Prophecy about the Second Coming … while Baha’ullah is the Son of Man in the Glory of The Father. We here will come in terms with The Bab, as through the Bab we can move towards Baha’ullah – The Glory of The Father!

Regarding the ‘end of the world”:

Each of the Divine Manifestations has a cycle and during that cycle His laws and commandments prevail and are performed. When His cycle is completed by the appearance of the new Manifestation of God, a new cycle begins. In this was cycles begin, end and are renewed.

However, coming to point,

The translation ‘end days” don’t mean ‘END of the WORLD!!’ … here I show you some things which are INTERNATIONALLY recognized by learned Christians themselves:

In the New Translations of the Bible, the ‘End days’ is translated in a more appropriate manner:

King James version (published in 1611 A.D.): “The end days”
Revised Standard version (published in 1951 A.D.): “The close of the Age”
New International version (published in 1978 A.D.): “End of the Age”

Bibles in simple English often use ‘The Last Days” or perhaps even (as you say) “end of the world”. This obviously causes some simple people to be really afraid of the end of the world.

We all know that Jesus didn’t write anything during his own lifetime. Jesus spoke a local language called Aramaic. The original words of Jesus came to the English speaking public via several translations from one language to another.

Translations are very difficult to make perfect. The original Gospels were written in Greek (make this confirmation from your most reliable historical sources), and later translated into Latin and finally into English. We know from the Greek translations that Jesus never used the words the ‘END OF THE WORLD!!!’ or ‘TIME OF THE END!’. In the Greek text, the word ‘aion’ is used. This word means ‘AN ERA’ or ‘A PERIOD OF TIME’ or ‘AN AGE’. If Jesus had really meant ‘THE END OF THE WORLD’, we would have found another Greek word ‘COSMOS’ in the text (which is no where available). To correct this error in old translations, new modern Bibles often use the phrase ‘CLOSE OF THE AGE’ instead.

The New Era of Baha’i faith the Era of Unity. The Message of this New Era is as follows:
God is One (The main aspect of all religions of the past … still a part of the divine
knowledge)
Mankind is One (All human are one race)
World is One (The world is but one country and mankind its citizens)
Religion is One (The every age, the new dawn is the only dawn or reality).

This is in complete agreement to what Christ had said in the following:

John Chapter 16, Verse 12
”Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall Hear, that shall He speak: and He will show you things to come.”

This also clearly states how a The Spirit of Truth, when he comes, will bring New Guidance. No Manifestation of God speaks of the material…but of the Heavenly Father. All that they have are of the Father. Like a clear and spotless mirror, they display the exact image of the Father…in them there is nothing of themselves, but of the Heavenly Father. This same Image/Glory will be in Him, and He shall give what He gets…and what He gets is in Him… from the Heavenly Father. As was in Jesus Christ … These Holinesses hear, see and speak of the Heavenly Father, and this is evident from the many sayings of Christ.
At His first coming Christ also came from heaven, as it is explicitly stated in the Gospel. Christ Himself says:

John Chapter3, Verse 13
“And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

(Continued…)

 

[kashef_0909]

It is clear to all that Christ came from heaven, although apparently He came from the womb of Mary. At the first coming He came from heaven, though apparently from the womb; in the same way, also, at His second coming He will come from heaven, though apparently from the womb. The conditions that are indicated in the Gospel for the second coming of Christ are the same as those that were mentioned for the first coming (this can be confirmed by a thorough study of the Old Testament and see what the Jews still are waiting for!).

The Book of Isaiah announces that the Messiah will conquer the East and the West, and all nations of the world will come under His shadow, that His Kingdom will be established, that He will come from an unknown place, that the sinners will be judged, and that justice will prevail to such a degree that the wolf and the lamb, the leopard and the kid, the sucking child and the asp, shall all gather at one spring, and in one meadow, and one dwelling. The first coming was also under these conditions, though outwardly none of them came to pass. Therefore, the Jews rejected Christ, and considered Him to be the destroyer of the edifice of God, regarded Him as the breaker of the Sabbath and the Law, and sentenced Him to death. Nevertheless, each one of these conditions had a signification that the Jews did not understand; therefore, they were debarred from perceiving the truth of Christ.

The second coming of Christ also will be in like manner: the signs and conditions that have been spoken of all have meanings, and are not to be taken literally.

Among other things it is said that the stars will fall upon the earth. The stars are endless and innumerable, and modern mathematicians have established and proved scientifically that the globe of the sun is estimated to be about one million and a half times greater than the earth, and each of the fixed stars to be a thousand times larger than the sun. If these stars were to fall upon the surface of the earth, how could they find place there? It would be as though a thousand million of Himalaya mountains were to fall upon a grain of mustard seed. According to reason and science this thing is quite impossible.

What is even more strange is that Christ said:

2 Peter Chapter3, Verse 10
“For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.”

Does it not indicate that the thief will be in the house, and the owner will not know it.

Also, consider in a more practicable manner: The Spirit of God comes from the Heavenly Father (God) … and is evident from the following (to those with eyes, will be able to see):

Matthew Chapter3, Verse 16
”And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God, descending like a dove, and lighting upon him.”

It is clear to the one with eyes and the one with ears that this was the time of the Declaration of Christ, and the beginning of Christianity. Look how He came from Heaven. For the one with eyes will be able to see now.

Also, consider this simple matter… that how unaware is the mind that expects Jesus to literally come down from heaven behind the clouds, and that the whole world will really be able to see this event! Whereas we all know the shape of the earth… if Jesus were to come in that fashion (which is not what he meant by His parables) and say he would land in New York… will the people in China also be able to see him?..even if the use the most powerful telescopes…? And many astronomers might ask ‘Which way is down?’!

Acts Chapter1, Verse 11
”He also said, O Ye Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven".

… It is clear and evident that these signs have symbolic signification, and that they are not literal.

Also, we must realize that the final judgment of all humans always occurs when the New Manifestation of God appears in flesh. To recognize Him is the greatest test. What is more powerful than that appearance? Imagine the religion and tradition being followed by humans for generations/ages…throughout their forefathers…becoming expired at the appearance of a Single Soul. He destroys the Laws, Traditions and Practices of the Past. Even changes the prayer rituals, the most precious traditions which were the cornerstones of the life of an entire nation/world. Such an event is far more intense and powerful than the anything conceivable! Parables can give a mere model of it… the intensity of this test, of this event, is only evident for the witness thereof. And for everyman who goes into this test. It ends the very world of the previous, and initiates a new existence! It brings forth new life, healing to those who have faith. As we are now in this hour of test, the New Era (as per the Baha’i belief).

(Continued…)

 

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Now Regarding the PROPHESIES:

Let me begin this by saying that there are but numerous Prophesies, both in the New and Old Testament, regarding the Advent of The Bab (as we will mainly discuss The Bab here first, and THE BAB is claimed by the Baha’is as the SECOND COMING OF JESUS CHRIST, Heralding the APPEARANCE – Of The GLORY OF GOD). Thus we must come in terms with The Bab before we recognize Baha’ullah.

Regarding the ‘Appointed One’. Every Manifestation of God is ‘The Appointed One’. And also was Jesus…

Hebrews, Chapter1 Verse: 2
”Hath in the end of these days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;”

You mentioned that I made a weak claim that the Gospels have reached every corner of the world for a witness in around 1844 (1835-1844). My claim is actually VERY STRONG. Its not even a claim…it’s a fact! Please do your own independent research on it. You don’t have to accept my sayings… make an INDEPENDENT investigation of the truth. However, remember that you want to find to TRUTH, not to prove the other person FALSE. If you have the desire to defeat of to just merely prove yourself right! Then this is not from a pure heart. A pure heart seeks the truth, and the truth is its only goal. I am here not as an adversary… but just with a NEWS. THE GOOD NEWS of the New Era. The Time Is Now… HE HAD COME, ALSO THE APPEARANCE HAD BEEN MADE. NOW IS THE TIME FOR PREACHING THE LIGHT OF ETERNAL LIFE. I am not here to convert or to argue. Just a servant of the Lord … with his Message to you. As is the duty of every Baha’i.

NOW WE WILL TAKE A LOOK AT SOME PROMISES IN THE BIBLE, WHICH POINTS AT 1844 EXCLUSIVELY:

A Brief Discussion on the Significance of the year 1844:

FIRST PROMISE (Matthew Chapter 24, Verse 12-14)
“And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the entire world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. “

Tell me, you have doubts if the Gospel is preached all over the world? Do you know that there is no corner in the world left where people don’t know who is Christ Jesus! Even the most remote tribes know Him. All over the world, there is not one single plot of land where the Gospel did not reach.

As previously mentioned, The British and the Foreign Bible Society ( biblesociety.org.uk/l3.php?id=141 ), formed in 1804 declared that between 1843 to 1845 the Gospel completed being everywhere in the world, even the densest and the central most parts of Africa! So we can say, the first prophecy is fulfilled! (Which we can now say even without these big organizations… as there is not a corner left in the world where the Gospel didn’t reach for a witness … and you can investigate this thoroughly).

SECOND PROMISE (Luke Chapter 21, Verse 24-27)
“And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.”

Anyone who is a non-Jew is a Gentile. This ‘they’ is referring to the Jews.

In plain words, Christ promised that he would return to earth then the Jews came back to their homeland after their period of banishment. Thus, in the hour of their return, the ‘time of the Gentiles’ would be fulfilled.
Look at this promise closely. From history you can derive that within 40 years of the Crucification of Christ Jesus this promise began its fulfillment. In 70 A.D. the Jews were scattered and exiled from Rome. However, under the Bar Cochba (in 132 A.D.) they tried to regain their freedom and failed. They were this time crushed by the Roman King Hadrian, and this time Jerusalem was completely destroyed, and on its ruins, the city named after Hadrian was built.

The Jews were banished, captive unto all nations… exactly as that prophecy. So much so that the colonists were allowed to enter Jerusalem, but it was a crime Punishable by death for a Jew to enter

The Romans were the first Gentiles. After the Romans, the second aliens were the Muslims. They conquered Jerusalem in 637 A.D., and upon the foundation of the Temple of Solomon, they raised the Mosque of Omar. In this time Jews were of course kept away from Jerusalem (and whole of Israel), few remaining were so much proscribed, that they sometimes preferred even suicide or live somewhere else as even a landless roamer!

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However, please note: These restrictions came to an end in the year 1844.
”1844 The Turkish Empire’s Edict of Toleration allows Jews to live in their original homeland.”
(Source: wilsonmar.com/1history.htm)), the source happens to be the worlds most acknowledge timeline chronicles.

We can visibly see today that the Jews have got back their Homeland. They gradually formed what today is Israel by buying lands in bits and pieces from 1844. And we all know that the Gospel have been published to all nations (and this was completed in 1844). So where do we stand?… something was supposed to happen in 1844?

THIRD PROMISE ( Matthew Chapter 24, Verse 15)
” When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand”
Chapters 8-12 of the Book of Daniel deal with this subject inclusively. These chapters are used to foretell the first coming of Christ as well as the second and thus are very important in proving the legitimacy of Christ’s claim as the Messiah of His age. In these chapters Daniel prophesies that from the issuing of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem until the time the Messiah shall be cut off (crucified) there are appointed 70 weeks (490 years).
Daniel Chapter 9, Verse 24-27
” Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”
Simple Math: 70 weeks = 72 weeks = 490 days
Or, 7 Weeks + 60 Weeks (threescore) + 2 Weeks + 1 Week = 70 Weeks = 490 Days
Determining when the decree to rebuild Jerusalem was issued can thus arrive at the first appearance of the Messiah.
History shows that three different Persian kings issued a total of four decrees. Cyrus issued the first in 536 BCE but it was not fulfilled (1st chapter of Ezra). Darius issued a second in the year 519 BCE. The Temple was rebuilt under this decree but not the city.
Artaxerxes issued a decree in 457 BCE (7th chapter of Ezra) and reissued the same decree in 444 BCE, which was finally fulfilled (2nd chapter of Nehemiah). Biblical scholars regarded the first decree of Artaxerxes as being the decree, which fulfilled the prophecy - the second decree merely extended the validity of the first. Four hundred ninety years subtracted from 457 BCE gives a date of 33 CE, for the year in which the Messiah would be ‘cut off’. 33 CE is the traditional year in which Christ was crucified.
The fulfillment of the second half of Daniel’s prophesy was to come about at the end of the ‘abomination of desolation’.
Daniel Chapter 8, Verse 13-14 says,
"How long shall the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the abomination of desolation, to give the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, “Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.”
The Messiah would return and restore the faith of man at the end of 2,300 years. Taking the same basis as used for computing the time of the first coming, the second can be determined. Since the year 1 BCE and 1 CE are essentially the same (the dividing point is the day of the Birth of Christ - the day before is BCE and the Birthdate is CE) the subtraction of 456 (Artaxerxes’ first decree to rebuilt Jerusalem) and 2300 (Daniel’s 2,300 days) leaves 1844 as the year of the return.
The first promise was fulfilled by the year 1844. The second promise was fulfilled in the year 1844 and the third was to be fulfilled in the year 1844. As another example of the exactitude of God’s prophesies the first decree of Artaxerxes was signed on the 1st of Nisan in 457 BCE and the Edit of Toleration of the Sultan of Turkey was issued on the 1st of Nisan in 1844 CE, 2,300 years to the day.

(Continued…)

 

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A Brief look at the calculation of time in the Bible:

This I will explain completely through the Bible. Bring any version of the Bible, present in heaven or earth.

How many days do a month have in bible?

1. Genesis Chapter 7, Verse 11 = The waters of the flood came on the 17th day of the second month.
2. Genesis Chapter 8, Verse 4 = The waters abated and ceased on the 17th day of the seventh month.
3. Genesis Chapter 7, Verse 24 = The water prevailed upon the earth for 150 days.

Simple Mathematics:

From the 17th day of the second month, till the 17th day of the seventh month, was exactly 5 months. (7-2=5).
These 5 months were of flood, which is said to have taken 150 days.
Therefore, 5 months = 150 days.
There we get 5 months, each of 30 days = 150/5 = 30.

Now let us see,

Ezekiel Chapter 4, Verse 6
”I have appointed thee, each day for a year”

So we can conclude that a day in calculating a prophecy is a year of 360 days. According to the Formulae given by God Almighty.

Also, we can look at the following for more interest…

In the ‘Book of Revelation’ and the 24th Chapter of Matthew, also the 21st Chapter of Luke … you will find certain promises (prophecies) made by Christ for his second coming, and particularly the in ‘Book of Revelation’ clues of His way of coming, and the New Name:

The Book Of Revelation, Chapter 3, Verse 11-13
” Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.“
Here Christ Jesus is speaking of the Last Days, as this is His LAST LETTER to Mankind, the Book of Revelation. Also, for a clue, what will be the name?

Isaiah Chapter 35, Verse 2
” It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.”
Isaiah Chapter 40, Verse 5
”And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.”
And what Christ Himself says:

Matthew Chapter 16, Verse 27
”For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.”
Now, the term Baha’ullah … literally means ‘The Glory of God’. It is an Arabic word giving the same meaning.
Here is something about Today’s Jerusalem, and Mount Carmel:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Carmel,_Israel

Baháʼí World Centre buildings - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

terraces.bahai.org/index.en.html
Also note, this Mount Carmel is the same mountain over which Jesus was sitting then most of Chapter 24 of Matthew was revealed. In that chapter, are two promises of his second coming.

Now for the friends who are here with a completely deviated view of this discussion!:
This discussion that I am having with you is a friendly one. Not to argue with anyone, but just to discuss the Baha’i beliefs, and why it says that it is the fulfillment of the Promise of all Ages.

There is no reason we should view each other as nailed or un-nailed coffins. We can have a more mature form of discussion. To be healed one must have faith…

Matthew Chapter 13, Verse 13-15
”Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. “

See closely with a clear and soft heart. A heart without preconceived ideas and idle fancy…mixed with superstition. You will derive the meaning yourself.

John Chapter3, Verse 3
” Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Be born of the spirit. This is the only way to know The Bab and then The Ultimate, Baha’ullah! To view the the sun, you must have a clean heart, which can see, and understand.

(Continued…)

 

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1. Above the THREE PROMISES are mentioned. Also, some more prophesies are pointed out for the curious minds.
2. Brief (essentially) explanations are given to my best strength to your inquiries.
3. Would hope you will care to read it… as indicated by your posts which followed mine… and I hope you all the best!

This is simple here. Simply put… with a just heart … go and investigate independently… INVESTIGATE THE TRUTH…FOR YOUR SPIRIT. When we try to investigate to prove someone wrong or to prove our pre-conceived ideas (often stagnant, and so many times impractical), this investigation is the same as torching the eyes blind before opening the gates and windows… so even if the lights come in…we remain in the dark.

Have a nice time…and any more questions… please ask.

Nice to share the discussion with all of you!!!

Hope to see more messages!

… …

 

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**Apart from all these prophecies, and apart from the FACT of This Dispensation. The ‘HOLY WORDS’ revealed by the Exalted pen is in itself the Most Exalted Sun of this New Age.

One of the writings of Baha’ullah is the Lawh-i-Aqdas. This is sometimes reffered to as the Tablet to the Christians. This you can find in the following website:

bahai-library.org/writings/bahaullah/tb/1.html

I encourage the true at heart to look into this Tablet. This is what The Glory of God has to say to those whose ears can hear…and eyes can see.

If you have any more questions… do put forward. Now as you can see, it is clear and firm - That the Cause Of God is here, and the Promise of All Ages have BEEN FULFILLED!**

(P.S. for more information, please see my most recent posts before this, which carries more theological and spiritual information about the Baha’is. This was put forward by me as a result of questions asked by friends in this thread.)

Have a nice day!