Bahai Faith

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clemrick:
As to being fourteen and still a baby… well I recall that my sister was only fifteen when she was Confirmed. One year to go from being a “baby” to receiving the “sacrament of Chrisitan maturity” seems to odd to me. And maybe I mis-heard when someone told me that Confirmation is now being done when children are 11 or 12.

As to Wednesday CCD classes, that was common where grew up in the 60s and 70s. Never heard of Wednesday night Mass, however.
And your parents had nothing to say about you walking away from their faith/Church? I ask because I have a fifteen yr. old. True, she could have choosen not to be confirmed…but I would have made sure that she was still attending Church with the family, and I would have doubled up my efforts of her catechesis! No…a fourteen year old in my family does not have the option of Church shopping…fourteen is still very much a child.

As far as a twelve year old making a decision to be confirmed…it depends on the maturity level of the child. If the child can grasp what the sacrament pertains too and understand it all…yes…it could happen. I also have an eleven year old who isn’t near that point yet.
 
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Lillith:
And your parents had nothing to say about you walking away from their faith/Church? I ask because I have a fifteen yr. old. True, she could have choosen not to be confirmed…but I would have made sure that she was still attending Church with the family, and I would have doubled up my efforts of her catechesis! No…a fourteen year old in my family does not have the option of Church shopping
I wasn’t “church shopping.” I had been reading and thinking and realized that I didn’t believe in some of the fundamental teaching of the church. It wasn’t a snap decision nor was looking to just get out of going to church. I believed that it would be hypocritical of me to continue attending mass when I didn’t believe in what was going on.

My mother and I discussed my reasons and I stopped attending mass and CCD.

I didn’t learn about the Baha’i Faith until five years later.
 
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Lillith:
And your parents had nothing to say about you walking away from their faith/Church? I ask because I have a fifteen yr. old. True, she could have choosen not to be confirmed…but I would have made sure that she was still attending Church with the family, and I would have doubled up my efforts of her catechesis! No…a fourteen year old in my family does not have the option of Church shopping…fourteen is still very much a child.
Not to derail this thread but:

By the time I was in my teens I had attended at least five different denominations with parental blessing, looking for a church I was comfortable in. At fourteen I was baptised into the denomination my maternal grandparents attended. At fifteen-and-a-half I left that denomination and got involved with a denomination which some adult members of my family strongly opposed.

On the other hand, my mom and stepfather had no particular commitment to any sort of religious denomination. And among Protestants since about the middle of the 20th century I think this is not uncommon–denominational changes between generations have been commonplace. Nowadays, few Protestants remain committed to a particular denomination even if they happen to move across town. They will go to a closer church, so long as the preaching is sound, the people are friendly, the activities interest them, and the level of commitment expected suits them.

And I think this is not unsual even for Roman Catholics. Lots of Protestant churches have Catholic kids in their Sunday Schools, Vacation Bible Schools, and Church Camps–I remember at least three of them getting baptised in our camp swimming pool the year I got bapised. With their Catholic parents in attendance. (I suspect most of these were ‘mixed’ marriages with one Catholic and one Protestant parent, but I could not tell you this of a certainty). And it does seem to me that there have been a couple of cases where children have gotten attorneys and SUED their parents for the right to belong to the faith of their choice:( . Not suggesting that I like this–I don’t even know if the kids won their cases–but I do think the tendency has been to recognize that children don’t just gain their civil liberties at the stroke of midnight when they turn 18 but gradually acquire those rights throughout their teenage years.

I’m not certain of my point beyond that it doesn’t strike me quite so odd as it seems to strike you that a fourteen year old might church-shop.
 
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DaveBj:
… 2) the Baha’i faith had nothing to deal with the question of sin and guilt.

DaveBj
Dave,

I noticed your point earlier and didn’t respond to it until now…

Baha’is don’t accept the Calvinist view of original sin…

We do believe people can choose to “sin”… They have freedom to turn away from divine guidance and do bad things… and freedom as well as capacity to respond to divine guidance.

Baha’u’llah revealed the following:

“Pleasant is the realm of being, wert though to attain thereto; glorious is the domain of eternity, shouldst thou pass beyond the world of mortality; sweet is the holy ecstasy if thou drinkest of the mystic chalice from the hands of the celestial Youth. Shouldst thou attain this station, thou wouldst be freed from destruction and death, from toil and sin”

Hidden Words (from the Persian) 70

Forgiveness of Sins:

O Lord, Thou possessor of infinite mercy ! O Lord of forgiveness and pardon ! Forgive our sins, pardon our shortcomings, and cause us to turn to the kingdom of Thy clemency, invoking the kingdom of might and power, humble at Thy shrine and submissive before the glory of Thine evidences.

`Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace p. 276.

We also accept the principle of intercessory prayer.

According to `Abdu’l-Bahá:–

“A mediator is necessary between man and the Creator – one who receives the full light of the Divine Splendor and radiates it over the human world, as the earth’s atmosphere receives and diffuses the warmth of the sun’s rays.”
  • Art
 
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Lillith:
How does a Child of fourteen…a baby really…leave anything? Get on your bike and ride I suppose. I mean did not your parents have a role in this decision?QUOTE]

I’m 14 and I’m bahai of christian parents (who both were quite involved thank u even to the point of interest themselves). and i also do not appreciate ur later comments abt understanding. i understand very well, that’s why i converted! :cool: sheesh take a chill pill lady.
 
oat soda:
bahai sounds like manicheism and other heresies which claim that a prophet is the greatest one because he clamied all religions are one. this is nothing new. this is like syncretism. i even think the masons belive something very similar.

anyways, i suspect they are very vague when it comes down to morality. could anyone post what they’re morals are? do they even have any or do they just accept the individual as the fundamental source of morality?
Baha’u’llah (the Founder of the Baha’i Faith) wrote thousdands of documents, which form the core of the Baha’i Holy Writings. He teaches quite explicitly that all the Manifestations of God are to be regarded as one (none is “greater” than any other), and that it would be tantamount to a denial of the unity of God Himself to claim that any of them is greater than another.

The revelations given to humanity through these Manifestations of God do vary, but this variance is not due to the inherent greatness of the Manifestation Himself. Rather, it is by the wisdom of God that each revelation is tailored to the needs and capacities of humanity at the time it is given.

As for moral teachings, Baha’u’llah set forth a series of spiritual principles to guide us in our daily lives as well as a few laws (some spiritual in nature and some social). He calls us to high standards of conduct. Of course, none of us is perfect at living up to these standards, but generally speaking the Baha’is that I have known have put forward a good effort in that direction. (I won’t make any claims for myself in that regard, but the others are pretty decent people.)

–Dale
 
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flameburns623:
I don’t believe they are ‘vague’ about moral issues at all. They oppose gay marriage, for example, and do not consume alcohol. I believe they encourage their members to live a holy life which includes study, prayer, and fasting. I think they oppose war and the death penalty, at least in the vast majority of cases. I do NOT know what their stands are on abortion or certain other hot-button public issues. Perhaps our Baha’i friends will pop back in to cover this subject more thoroughly.
Thank you, flame, you are quite correct, we (the Bahá’ís) are not vague about moral issues at all. I offer the following as a primer on Bahá’ís and morality

In a Book written for the American Bahá’ís in 1938 by the Guardian of the Bahá’í Faith explains in brief the importance of morality in the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh. To explain who Shoghi Effendi (The Guardian) was and the history of the Faith necessary for understanding of his unique roll would prove overwhelming in the form of a post – for that information I encourage those interested to follow the links mentioned in other posts.

That being said, with regard to Bahá’ís and morality, I offer:

“. . . a holiness and chastity that are diametrically opposed to the moral laxity and licentiousness which defile the character of a not inconsiderable proportion of its citizens; an interracial fellowship completely purged from the curse of racial prejudice which stigmatizes the vast majority of its people – these are the weapons which the American believers can and must wield in their double crusade, first to regenerate the inward life of their own community, and next to assail the long-standing evils that have entrenched themselves in the life of their nation.”

(Shoghi Effendi, The Advent of Divine Justice, p. 41)

“These requirements (of morality for Baha’is) are none other than a high sense of moral rectitude in their social and administrative activities, absolute chastity in their individual lives, and complete freedom from prejudice in their dealings with peoples of a different race, class, creed, or color.”

(Shoghi Effendi, The Advent of Divine Justice, p. 21)

A rectitude of conduct, an abiding sense of undeviating justice, . . . a chaste, pure, and holy life, unsullied and unclouded by the indecencies, the vices, the false standards, which an inherently deficient moral code tolerates, perpetuates, and fosters; a fraternity freed from that cancerous growth of racial prejudice, which is eating into the vitals of an already debilitated society – these are the ideals which the American believers must . . . individually and through concerted action, strive to promote, in both their private and public lives . . .

(Shoghi Effendi, The Advent of Divine Justice, p. 22)

This rectitude of conduct, with its implications of justice, equity, truthfulness, honesty, fair-mindedness, reliability, and trustworthiness, must distinguish every phase of the life of the Bahá’í community. “The companions of God,” Bahá’u’lláh Himself has declared, “are, in this day, the lump that must leaven the peoples of the world. They must show forth such trustworthiness, such truthfulness and perseverance, such deeds and character that all mankind may profit by their example.”

“Beautify your tongues, O people,” He further admonishes them, “with truthfulness, and adorn your souls with the ornament of honesty. Beware, O people, that ye deal not treacherously with anyone. Be ye the trustees of God amongst His creatures, and the emblems of His generosity amidst His people.”

“Let your eye be chaste,” is yet another counsel, “your hand faithful, your tongue truthful, and your heart enlightened.”

“Be an ornament to the countenance of truth, a crown to the brow of fidelity, a pillar of the temple of righteousness, a breath of life to the body of mankind, an ensign of the hosts of justice, a luminary above the horizon of virtue.”

“Let truthfulness and courtesy be your adorning,” is still another admonition; “suffer not yourselves to be deprived of the robe of forbearance and justice, that the sweet savors of holiness may be wafted from your hearts upon all created things. Say: Beware, O people of Baha, lest ye walk in the ways of them whose words differ from their deeds. Strive that ye may be enabled to manifest to the peoples of the earth the signs of God, and to mirror forth His commandments. Let your acts be a guide unto all mankind, for the professions of most men, be they high or low, differ from their conduct…”

(Shoghi Effendi, The Advent of Divine Justice, p. 22)

I hope this information helps you to better understand the high moral standards of the Bahá’í Faith.

kernk
 
Greetings, all! 🙂

I’m Yet Another Baha’i, and like the rest, am most happy to answer any questions! (I’ll probably post a couple comments below, for starters.)

Regards,

Bruce
 
Hi!
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Lillith:
Hello Clemrick…and all the other Baha’is…nice to meet you. How does a Child of fourteen…a baby really…leave anything? Get on your bike and ride I suppose./QUOTE]

If you will forgive me for saying so, I find your comment (about Clemrick’s choosing to leave the Roman Catholic Church at age 14) passing strange!

It is YOU–the Catholics–who begin children taking the sacrament at around age seven or eight (last I heard), and who then confirm around 12.

In the Baha’i Faith, the “age of maturity” is fifteen, so while we encourage children to particpate in activities at any age, they can’t actually enroll in the Faith until then.

And given all this, I’m afraid I don’t understand why Clemrick’s pondering this at 14 raises such a question.

Peace,

Bruce
 
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ima_kool:
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Lillith:
How does a Child of fourteen…a baby really…leave anything? Get on your bike and ride I suppose. I mean did not your parents have a role in this decision?QUOTE]

I’m 14 and I’m bahai of christian parents (who both were quite involved thank u even to the point of interest themselves). and i also do not appreciate ur later comments abt understanding. i understand very well, that’s why i converted! :cool: sheesh take a chill pill lady.
Young person…read well before you criticize! I was talking about MY 12 year old daughter’s understanding…not the poster. Thank you for worrying about my stress level though and offering me a sedative. 😃
 
kernk said:
“Beautify your tongues, O people,” He further admonishes them, “with truthfulness, and adorn your souls with the ornament of honesty. Beware, O people, that ye deal not treacherously with anyone. Be ye the trustees of God amongst His creatures, and the emblems of His generosity amidst His people.”

“Let your eye be chaste,” is yet another counsel, “your hand faithful, your tongue truthful, and your heart enlightened.”

“Be an ornament to the countenance of truth, a crown to the brow of fidelity, a pillar of the temple of righteousness, a breath of life to the body of mankind, an ensign of the hosts of justice, a luminary above the horizon of virtue.”

“Let truthfulness and courtesy be your adorning,” is still another admonition; “suffer not yourselves to be deprived of the robe of forbearance and justice, that the sweet savors of holiness may be wafted from your hearts upon all created things. Say: Beware, O people of Baha, lest ye walk in the ways of them whose words differ from their deeds. Strive that ye may be enabled to manifest to the peoples of the earth the signs of God, and to mirror forth His commandments. Let your acts be a guide unto all mankind, for the professions of most men, be they high or low, differ from their conduct…”

(Shoghi Effendi, The Advent of Divine Justice, p. 22)

I must say–whether one likes the doctrines of the Baha’i Faith or not, anyone who likes good poetry and a well-turned sentence just must be impressed with the beauty of some of the Baha’i Scriptures. A far cry from the Book of Mormon, aka “chloroform in print”.
 
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flameburns623:
I’m not certain of my point beyond that it doesn’t strike me quite so odd as it seems to strike you that a fourteen year old might church-shop.
Flameburns…and all the Bahai’s too for that matter…Let’s look at this from my point of view for a moment please.

We are talking about a religion that is not Christian. It seems sweet but let us look at the facts…this religion does not believe in the divinity of Christ. Period. My distress is over the fact that there are apparently “Christian” parents out in the world that are allowing very young people to explore …I am not questioning the children…but the parents…actually, I am questioning the truthfullness of it all.

I am sorry…but I have trouble believing that Christian parents are really happy…encouraging even…their young children to leave Christianity. I just don’t believe that these parents were Christian in the first place.

If my fourteen year old were questioning the Catholic Church and looking elsewhere…I would be distressed…but if she were questioning the Divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ I would be simply devastated
 
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Lillith:
Flameburns…and all the Bahai’s too for that matter…Let’s look at this from my point of view for a moment please.

We are talking about a religion that is not Christian. It seems sweet but let us look at the facts…this religion does not believe in the divinity of Christ. Period. My distress is over the fact that there are apparently “Christian” parents out in the world that are allowing very young people to explore …I am not questioning the children…but the parents…actually, I am questioning the truthfullness of it all.

I am sorry…but I have trouble believing that Christian parents are really happy…encouraging even…their young children to leave Christianity. I just don’t believe that these parents were Christian in the first place.

If my fourteen year old were questioning the Catholic Church and looking elsewhere…I would be distressed…but if she were questioning the Divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ I would be simply devastated
I do understand your concerns but was simply pointing out the degree to which the venom of secularism has poisoned a once-Christian culture. Relatively few people these days would raise an eyebrow about a relative who dabbled in Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, etcetera. The Baha’i Faith would perhaps provoke a bit more controversy simply because it is rather more obscure. A parent would want to know enough about it to be certain thei child wasn’t ging to be induced into living in a commune or something. Otherwise–so long as the elective faith did not interfere with the child’s good grades or their career prospects, most parents would fuss for a little while and then live with the decision.

And I do think Bruce’s observation is germaine: Baha’is don’t allow people to join their faith prior to the age of 15. Most Protestants (if they don’t baptise infants) accept professions of faith by age 7 or 8 (I was pressured to make such a decision at about age six). Catholics and Protestants confirm their kids somewhere around 12 to 14 in most cases. We ARE the ones who might be deemed to be exploiting the young.
 
Dave, hi!

I have no idea what you mean by “the Baha’i Faith has nothing to deal with sin and guilt!”

We recognize that sin exists, and that it must be resisted and/or overcome.

And we fully recognize God as the All-loving and the All-forgiving, and are of course enjoined to seek forgiveness from Him (which if we’re sincere He will then provide)!

Also, we agree with the Biblical statement that sin is not inherited!

So I have no idea what you’re objecting to, I’m afraid…

Regards,

Bruce
 
Lillith,

Regarding exploration . . . does not the Bible say:

“Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.”

(1 Philippians 4:8)

“Be joyful always; pray continually; give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.

“Do not put out the Spirit’s fire; do not treat prophecies with contempt.

“Test everything. Hold on to the good.”

(1 Thessalonians 5:16-21)

I do not mean to be argumentative, just to present what I feel are some relevant Biblical guidance worth considering.

kernk
 
Flame, one quick correction for you:

Baha’u’llah is the most recent of the Divine Messengers, but not the last! There will never be a “last.”

Regards,

Bruce
 
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flameburns623:
I
And I do think Bruce’s observation is germaine: Baha’is don’t allow people to join their faith prior to the age of 15. Most Protestants (if they don’t baptise infants) accept professions of faith by age 7 or 8 (I was pressured to make such a decision at about age six). Catholics and Protestants confirm their kids somewhere around 12 to 14 in most cases. We ARE the ones who might be deemed to be exploiting the young.
My daughter will not be confirmed until she makes that decision at whatever age she feels ready. It is possible that she will never be confirmed, of course I pray for it, but it’s her decision to make…she has all the time in the world…A resposible Catholic parent would not allow a fake confirmation…It would be sinful
 
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kernk:
Lillith,

Regarding exploration . . . does not the Bible say:

“Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.”

(1 Philippians 4:8)

“Be joyful always; pray continually; give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.

“Do not put out the Spirit’s fire; do not treat prophecies with contempt.

“Test everything. Hold on to the good.”

(1 Thessalonians 5:16-21)

I do not mean to be argumentative, just to present what I feel are some relevant Biblical guidance worth considering.

kernk
Amen! Always say Amen to scripture. I am curious…do you also quote the Koran…Buddah…Or Muhammed?
 
Gang, the system seems to choke when I post this whole message at once, so I’m splitting it into two parts below and hoping that will work!

PART ONE:

Greetings, Oat.
oat soda:
bahai sounds like manicheism and other heresies which claim that a prophet is the greatest one because he clamied all religions are one. this is nothing new. this is like syncretism.
I can assure you that the Baha’i Faith is not mere “syncetism!”

We have, in addition to our own Divine Messenger/Founder, our own scriptures (fully 200 volumes of them!), our own teachings, administrative order (functioning world wide), and our own laws. Even the odd custom, though these really aren’t formalized.

So we are hardly a mere mishmash of other religions or their teachings.
oat soda:
anyways, i suspect they are very vague when it comes down to morality. could anyone post what they’re morals are? do they even have any or do they just accept the individual as the fundamental source of morality?
You suspect quite wrongly, I humbly suggest.

Baha’i law is very clear-cut on many matters:
  • Our goal and purpose is to foster unity, love, peace, and concord.
  • The single greatest sin is backbiting and gossip, which our scriptures condemn in the strongest terms.
  • The Baha’i scriptures also command obedience to government, so you won’t find Baha’is leading any political revolutions.
  • Baha’is (and the Baha’i scriptures, of course!) revere marriage and the family, and have very strong laws prohibiting sex outside of heterosexual marriage. (Homosexuals are accepted, but homosexual acts are not.)
(CONTINUES.)
 
PART TWO:
  • Waging war is expressly forbidden, with the sole exception that all nations are to band together to stop any aggressor.
    Baha’i law forbids any involvement in partisan politics, which–being a “divide and conquer” process–is totally contrary to the unific methods of the Baha’i Faith.
  • The Baha’i scriptures also establish a world-wide administrative system already in use by Baha’is the world over. It is totally non-political and is fully democratic and unific, while expressly prohibiting nominations, campaigning, and discussion of indivivdual personalities.
  • The Baha’i Faith also has its own calendar and its own holy days.
  • Use of alcohol and recreational drugs is expressly forbidden in our scriptures.
  • We believe the soul enters the child at conception. While birth control is permitted, forms that would abort the fetus are not, and abortion is prohibited except in extreme circumstances to save the life of the mother.
(CONTINUES.)
 
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