Bahai Faith

[kernk]

Lillith:

Amen! Always say Amen to scripture. I am curious…do you also quote the Koran…Buddah…Or Muhammed?

Yes, well, I do anyway. Can’t say that all Bahá’ís do. It is not required or expected of Bahá’ís, but we do respect all Scriptures - so why not quote them?

kernk

 

[BruceDLimber]

• The Baha'i scriptures also stress education (both to enable this search and to learn a profession) and the importance of everyone's carrying on some constructive occupation. Indeed, out scriptures assert that work--one's profession--done in the spirit of service ranks as worship of God!
• The Baha'i scriptures also stress, as part of the oneness of humanity, the elimination of prejudice of all types. The Baha'is have been at the forefront of fostering racial amity ever since the inception of the Faith, and have a rate of interracial marriage far above the norm! (Marriage partners freely choose each other, and arranged marriages are forbidden.)
  CONTINUES.

 

[BruceDLimber]

• And the source of morality and ethics is God Himself!
  There is much more to the Baha’i Faith, but I trust this sample will serve to demonstrate that our basis is God-centered scripture, not the individual.
  
  Just the facts.
  
  (Whew! It’s ridiculous the way the system insists that posts be broken up! But at least I managed to finish.)
  
  Peace,
  
  Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings, Ahimsa!

I think we Baha’is would say that the many thousands of “Gods” you mention are in fact aspects of the One God!

This would apply, for example, to Hinduism, which in fact teaches one God (though many people don’t realize this).

Regards,

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

G’day, Lillith!

L>We are talking about a religion that is not Christian.

You couldn’t be more wrong, in that EVERY Baha’i world wide accepts and believes in both Christ and the Bible!

Indeed, we Baha’is have brought literally MILLIONS of non-Christians around the world to the recognition and love of Christ–over three million in India alone!

L>It seems sweet, but let us look at the facts…this religion does not believe in the divinity of Christ. Period.

Quite wrong. (Should I append “period” to this?)

If you read the Baha’i scriptures, you’ll find that every Divine Messenger has a dual station, being both the face of God on earth AND an ordinary human being. (You can see both of these quite clearly in the case of Christ, for example, if you read the Gospels and note His statements!)

Indeed, EVERY Messenger posesses this divine aspect, as I’m sure you’ll discover if you ask some Baha’is…

(I fear you’re concentrating on Christ’s divine aspect–which we stipulate, please note!–and ignoring His many statements like “Why callest thou Me good? There is none good but the Father in Heaven!” and “I can do nothing save what the Father wills” .)

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Lillith]

BruceDLimber:

G’day, Lillith!

L>We are talking about a religion that is not Christian.

You couldn’t be more wrong, in that EVERY Baha’i world wide accepts and believes in both Christ and the Bible!

So…you are a Christian? You believe that Christ is God? This is confusing to me…I thought I read that Buddah…Muhammed…and Christ were all equal…faces of God. I do not believe that Buddah or Muhammed were God…do you?

BruceDLimber:

Indeed, we Baha’is have brought literally MILLIONS of non-Christians around the world to the recognition and love of Christ–over three million in India alone!

I am trying to wrap my brain around your beliefs…bare with me. So all of those millions of folks are now Baptised Christians…who believe that Jesus alone is God, because that is what a card carrying Christian believes. Possibly we have different translations

BruceDLimber:

If you read the Baha’i scriptures, you’ll find that every Divine Messenger has a dual station, being both the face of God on earth AND an ordinary human being. (You can see both of these quite clearly in the case of Christ, for example, if you read the Gospels and note His statements!)

To a Christian…Christ is not simply a Divine Messenger…he is Divinity. God himself…so you understand why I am confused about Bahais calling themselves Christian? I thought you considered yourself Buddists, Muslims, Christians, followers of all scripture…Again…I believe I am experiencing a translation difficulty…But the Bahai religion does not fit my definition of Christian

(I fear you’re concentrating on Christ’s divine aspect–which we stipulate, please note!–and ignoring His many statements like “Why callest thou Me good? There is none good but the Father in Heaven!” and “I can do nothing save what the Father wills” .)

Peace,

Bruce

And Now this sounds like a Jehovah’s Witness to my ears…confusion sets in deeply

 

[kernk]

Lillith,

I posted this recently on another forum, I offer it here and hope it helps you understand the Baha’i position on Jesus and God.

Bahá’ís believe that seeing and speaking to Jesus (and the other “Manifestations” of God) is as close as humanity can come to seeing and speaking to God. If there is a difference it is that Bahá’ís do not believe that God incarnates Himself in the person of the Manifestation. That is, God does not “become” the person of the Manifestation, He remains God; independent, infinite, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, etc.

To explain this relationship Bahá’u’lláh uses the analogy of a mirror:

“We recognize in the manifestation of each one of them, whether outwardly or inwardly, the manifestation of none but God Himself, if ye be of those that comprehend. Every one of them is a mirror of God, reflecting naught else but His Self, His Beauty, His Might and Glory, if ye will understand.”

(Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 73)

He also explains:

“The door of the knowledge of the Ancient Being hath ever been, and will continue for ever to be, closed in the face of men. No man’s understanding shall ever gain access unto His holy court. As a token of His mercy, however, and as a proof of His loving-kindness, He hath manifested unto men the Day Stars of His divine guidance, the Symbols of His divine unity, and hath ordained the knowledge of these sanctified Beings to be identical with the knowledge of His own Self. Whoso recognizeth them hath recognized God. Whoso hearkeneth to their call, hath hearkened to the Voice of God, and whoso testifieth to the truth of their Revelation, hath testified to the truth of God Himself. Whoso turneth away from them, hath turned away from God, and whoso disbelieveth in them, hath disbelieved in God. Every one of them is the Way of God that connecteth this world with the realms above, and the Standard of His Truth unto every one in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. They are the Manifestations of God amidst men, the evidences of His Truth, and the signs of His glory.”

(Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49)

Also,

“…all the Prophets are the Temples of the Cause of God, Who have appeared clothed in divers attire. If thou wilt observe with discriminating eyes, thou wilt behold Them all abiding in the same tabernacle, soaring in the same heaven, seated upon the same throne, uttering the same speech, and proclaiming the same Faith. Such is the unity of those Essences of Being, those Luminaries of infinite and immeasurable splendor! Wherefore, should one of these Manifestations of Holiness proclaim saying: “I am the return of all the Prophets,” He, verily, speaketh the truth. In like manner, in every subsequent Revelation, the return of the former Revelation is a fact, the truth of which is firmly established…”

(Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 51)

So, as one looks in a mirror reflecting the sun, where they to point at the mirror and say, “there is the sun,” it would be the truth. The mirror reflects all of the attributes of the sun that man can experience – light, heat, etc. Similarly, Jesus is as close to God as humans can get; as He Manifested the Power, Glory, Love, Lordship, Forgiveness, etc. of God perfectly as a mirror reflects the sun perfectly.

(Continued)

 

[kernk]

(part two)

It isn’t that different from the concept of Trinity as an attempt to describe the relationship of Jesus and God. I think the difference is that Baha’is hold that God, regardless of how perfectly His attributes are reflected in the Manifestations of God, such as Jesus, is still independent from them and above them.

There is precedent in the Bible for this understanding of Jesus’ relationship to God:

“For he (God) hath put all things under his (Jesus’) feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he (God) is excepted, which did put all things under him.

“And when all things shall be subdued unto him (Jesus), then shall the Son (Jesus) also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.”

(King James Bible, 1 Corinthians 15:27-28)

And,

“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus…”

(King James Bible, 1 Timothy 2:5)

“ …for my Father is greater than I."

(King James Bible, John 14:28)

“And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.”

(King James Bible, Luke 18:19)

These are some examples of distinctions that Jesus makes between himself and God or “The Father.” There are others, and others that are more subtle, such as the parable of the Vineyard.

This post is getting long, so I will try and summarize and end it. There are passages in the Bible that suggest that Jesus and God “The Father” are “one” and others that suggest a distinction. Throughout Christianity there has been a struggle to explain this relationship with concepts such as the Trinity and various levels of understanding the Divinity of Jesus. Bahá’ís believe that all the Manifestations of God were Divine and that they possessed the Holy Spirit but that they are not God incarnate - that God did not wholly become man and cease to be God independent of and above the Manifestations. The difference would be one word, “wholly.” We don’t believe that Jesus was “wholly” God. We do believe that He “wholly” reflected the attributes of God.

I hope this helps explain the Bahá’í position on Jesus. Please understand that we Bahá’ís have no clergy and one of the primary teachings of the Faith is what we call “independent investigation of truth.” In short, when I say “the Bahá’í position” it means ONLY my personal understanding of the Faith and not any official doctrine. To truly understand the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh and the position of the Bahá’í Faith one must read the Bahá’í Writings and come to understand them in their pure form.

kernk

 

[flameburns623]

BruceDLimber:

Flame, one quick correction for you:

Baha’u’llah is the most recent of the Divine Messengers, but not the last! There will never be a “last.”

Regards,

Bruce

Yeah, I made several minor boo-boos in my little synopsis, which is why I suggested folks here go to better sources and why I let y’all over at PlanetBaha’i know about this thread. For the record I am not now nor have I ever been a Baha’i. I’ve been to a Baha’i bookstore once, though:tiphat: . Any major religious ideology requires a bit of a paradigm shift in order to really grasp the ideas and avoid gross errors. It also requires sufficient study and interaction to avoid outright factual errors. Even then, memory ‘leakage’ and the fact that all ideas are to some degree ‘moving targets’, subject to refinement and a more-perfect articulation, means that a person can make mistakes. I perhaps more than most.

BTW–so that you know: the forum allows a maximum post length of 5000 characters and they ask that posters NOT post a series of posts in order to extend out a post, unless this is clearly needful. The moderators tend to be very tolerant of this in practice, (does anyone ever bother to thank them for all the work they do to keep these forums civil and pleasant places? If not–THANKS!); they are much more concerned that people not post long articles when a link could do. You also can only edit a post for 15 minutes after the post first appears. So if you’re prone to typos–preview the post before you put it up, or you may not get another chance to fix the problems.

 

[kernk]

Lillith:

I thought you considered yourself Buddists, Muslims, Christians, followers of all scripture…

We don’t consider ourselves followers of all scripture; we respect and believe in the Divine Source of all scripture. To be a Bahá’í one must accept Buddha, and Krishna, and Zoroaster, and Muhammad, and Jesus, and Bahá’u’lláh, to name a few, but the Bahá’í Faith is not a conglomeration of these faiths. It is and independent religion with its own scriptures revealed by Bahá’u’lláh for this age and the fulfillment of previous faiths. It is not the last faith, it is not the only path to God it is simply the most recent and, we believe, the most historically relevant.

From a more spiritual perspective, one could say that there are not many faiths but only one and it gets renewed and regenerated when a new Manifestation comes to the world.

“This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it – verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.”

(Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 136)

kernk

 

[Lillith]

(part two)
This post is getting long, so I will try and summarize and end it. There are passages in the Bible that suggest that Jesus and God “The Father” are “one” and others that suggest a distinction. Throughout Christianity there has been a struggle to explain this relationship with concepts such as the Trinity and various levels of understanding the Divinity of Jesus. Bahá’ís believe that all the Manifestations of God were Divine and that they possessed the Holy Spirit but that they are not God incarnate - that God did not wholly become man and cease to be God independent of and above the Manifestations. The difference would be one word, “wholly.” We don’t believe that Jesus was “wholly” God. We do believe that He “wholly” reflected the attributes of God.

I hope this helps explain the Bahá’í position on Jesus. Please understand that we Bahá’ís have no clergy and one of the primary teachings of the Faith is what we call “independent investigation of truth.” In short, when I say “the Bahá’í position” it means ONLY my personal understanding of the Faith and not any official doctrine. To truly understand the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh and the position of the Bahá’í Faith one must read the Bahá’í Writings and come to understand them in their pure form.

kernk

Kernk…Thank you. I believe I get it somewhat. It does sound a lot like the Jehovah witness position…with Buddah and Muhammed added to the mix. So…Bruce called it a Christian denomination, but my definition of Christian is different I think than his…so what is it considered…I mean is there an ultimate name for this religion. If you were going to fill in the blank it would be “Bahai followers of _____” To my mind if you can’t say Jesus Christ …in my definition of things you can’t be called Christian…

 

[flameburns623]

Lillith:

Kernk…Thank you. I believe I get it somewhat. It does sound a lot like the Jehovah witness position…with Buddah and Muhammed added to the mix. So…Bruce called it a Christian denomination, but my definition of Christian is different I think than his…so what is it considered…I mean is there an ultimate name for this religion. If you were going to fill in the blank it would be “Bahai followers of _____” To my mind if you can’t say Jesus Christ …in my definition of things you can’t be called Christian…

Baha’i’s have NOTHING in common with Jehovah’s Witnesses. They believe in the survival of the soul after death. They accept prophets outside of the Judeao-Christian tradition as being manifestations of God. They believe that Baha’u’llah is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ (bet I’ve phrased this badly but if so, hopefully someone will clarify). They accept as inspired the Writings of Baha’ullah, and some of His Successors (note that they commonly capitalise nouns and pronouns when referring to Baha’u’llah, just as we do when referring to Jesus Christ or His Work). Certainly the culture of the Baha’i’s is vastly different from that of the JW’s–the former are much more open and warm, the latter are often rather distant and aloof from non-members.

I don’t think that Bruce intended to imply that the Baha’i Faith is a ‘Christian denomination’. Baha’is see their Faith as the fulfillment of Christianity in some sense. I used to have a link to several articles in which someone suggested how Biblical apocalyptic literature was fulfilled by Jesus Christ. I cleaned my ‘favorites’ list awhile back and seem to have expunged this. However the following link may help explain how Baha’is see Scripture, including the Bible:

planetbahai.org/articles/1999/ar120899a.html

Hope this helps.

 

[Lillith]

flameburns623:

Baha’i’s have NOTHING in common with Jehovah’s Witnesses. They believe in the survival of the soul after death. They accept prophets outside of the Judeao-Christian tradition as being manifestations of God. They believe that Baha’u’llah is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ (bet I’ve phrased this badly but if so, hopefully someone will clarify). They accept as inspired the Writings of Baha’ullah, and some of His Successors (note that they commonly capitalise nouns and pronouns when referring to Baha’u’llah, just as we do when referring to Jesus Christ or His Work). Certainly the culture of the Baha’i’s is vastly different from that of the JW’s–the former are much more open and warm, the latter are often rather distant and aloof from non-members. .

Flameburner…I deleted what you quoted after I read Kernk’s explaination…which suited me greatly! But…since you caught it so quickly…you sly thing you…I will show you the quote that Bruce wrote that lead me to that conclusion

(I fear you’re concentrating on Christ’s divine aspect–which we stipulate, please note!–and ignoring His many statements like “Why callest thou Me good? There is none good but the Father in Heaven!” and “I can do nothing save what the Father wills” .)

That sounded Jehovah Witnessy to me…

 

[flameburns623]

lilith:

Flameburner…I deleted what you quoted after I read Kernk’s explaination…which suited me greatly! But…since you caught it so quickly…you sly thing you…I will show you the quote that Bruce wrote that lead me to that conclusion

Yeah I saw that your post vanished. Thot mebbe you were editing it. I left mine up 'cause it’s still germaine to some of the prior posts in this thread. The link seemed useful to some of the issues coming up here.

I think you heard echoes in Bruce’s post of the Jehovah’s Witnesses preference for the Moffatt translation of John 1:

"John 1: 1 - 3

**
The Logos existed in the very beginning,
the Logos was with God,
the Logos was divine.
He was with God in the very beginning:
through him all existence came into being,
no existence came into being apart from him. "

Obviously, this translation of this passage weakens the argument for the eternal divinity of Christ. I don’t think Bruce had this passage in mind in his post however.

 

[DaveBj]

I would like to comment on the high level of civility on the part of the defenders of the Baha’i faith. You are making yourselves and your fellow believers look good.

A comment on the reaction to my comment:

Also, 2) the Baha’i faith had nothing to deal with the question of sin and guilt.

At that time my understanding of Christian theology was minimal. I knew what original sin was, but had no clue about Calvinism/Arminianism, etc. What I was referring to was my awareness of my own sins and the perceived lack of any mechanism for forgiveness/receiving forgiveness within the Baha’i faith.

DaveBj

 

[oat_soda]

there is nothing to distinguish this religion with any other cult of the last few hunderd years. they all claim to be the truth or the way and many accept Jesus as being some how “divine” or enlightened.

only Jesus said he was God, and that he was the way and truth. these jokers never made a claim like that. and they certainly didn’t rise from the dead to prove it. Jesus is totally unique and bahai is another dime a dozen fantasy.

why would i choose this religion over hari kristnas? or raliens? they all may have some truth to them, but the truth doesn’t subside in them.

Principles of Bahá’í Belief

"…teaches that the fundamental purpose of religion is to promote concord and harmony, that** it must go hand-in-hand with science**, and that it constitutes the sole and ultimate basis of a peaceful, an ordered and progressive society.

“It inculcates the principle of equal opportunity, rights and privileges for both sexes, advocates compulsory education, abolishes extremes of poverty and wealth, exalts work performed in the spirit of service to the rank of worship, recommends the adoption of an auxiliary international language, and provides the necessary agencies for the establishment and safeguarding of a permanent and universal peace.”

sounds pretty worldly to me.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Flame, concerning post length:

Does the system somehow have a problem processing bulleted lists or some such?

Even when I split my post, I then had to keep splitting it again into shorter and shorter posts–once, it even refused to process a 13-line post!

It seems to be much worse than a 5,000-word limit.

Do you happen to know what’s going on here?

Thanks!

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

[To Lillith]: I think you heard echoes in Bruce’s post of the Jehovah’s Witnesses preference for the Moffatt translation of John 1:

"John 1: 1 - 3

The Logos existed in the very beginning,
the Logos was with God,
the Logos was divine.
He was with God in the very beginning:
through him all existence came into being,
no existence came into being apart from him. "

Obviously, this translation of this passage weakens the argument for the eternal divinity of Christ. I don’t think Bruce had this passage in mind in his post however.

Not only didn’t I have it in mind, I’d never even seen it until I read your post! :-S

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

DaveBj:

I would like to comment on the high level of civility on the part of the defenders of the Baha’i faith. You are making yourselves and your fellow believers look good.

Yeah; we fool a lot of people that way! :-S

I discussed forgiveness above. I’ll simply add that if you read Ezekiel, it explicitly rejects the concept of inheritance of sin. (Sorry; I don’t have the citation at hand right now.)

Regards,

Bruce

 

[flameburns623]

oat soda:

only Jesus said he was God, and that he was the way and truth. these jokers never made a claim like that. and they certainly didn’t rise from the dead to prove it. Jesus is totally unique and bahai is another dime a dozen fantasy.

There is where the rubber begins to meet the road. I don’t know whether Baha’i’s actually believe that Christ rose from the dead, literally, in a glorified form of the same Earthly body which was laid in the grave three days prior.

Why would I choose this religion over Hare Krishnas? Or Raelians? They all may have some truth to them, but the {fullness of the} truth doesn’t subside in them. {edited for cases and spelling, with bracketed portion inserted for clarity}

Another fair question, though the tone is rather more argumentative than sincere.
oat soda:

Principles of Bahá’í Belief

"…teaches that the fundamental purpose of religion is to promote concord and harmony, that** it must go hand-in-hand with science**, and that it constitutes the sole and ultimate basis of a peaceful, an ordered and progressive society.

“It inculcates the principle of equal opportunity, rights and privileges for both sexes, advocates compulsory education, abolishes extremes of poverty and wealth, exalts work performed in the spirit of service to the rank of worship, recommends the adoption of an auxiliary international language, and provides the necessary agencies for the establishment and safeguarding of a permanent and universal peace.”
sounds pretty worldly to me.

And a fair observation. Again, not expressed in a manner conducive to real dialogue, but a fair observation nonetheless. When I was frequenting Planet Baha’i, I had some of the same perceptions, for the record.

DaveBJ:

I would like to comment on the high level of civility on the part of the defenders of the Baha’i faith. You are making yourselves and your fellow believers look good.

Yes, the Baha’i’s are a joy to interact with. I first came across them on WebTV, when they had a chattroom on TalkCity, which is now defunct. I missed the discourse when I switched over to a regular computer and consciously sought out a good Baha’i webforum, which is how I found PlanetBaha’i. I don’t post there quite so often as I did a few years ago but they are still a sterling example of how to engage in religious dialogue. Though most folks on CatholicAnswers are pretty cool, too.