Bahai Faith

[flameburns623]

BruceDLimber:

Flame, concerning post length:

Does the system somehow have a problem processing bulleted lists or some such?

Even when I split my post, I then had to keep splitting it again into shorter and shorter posts–once, it even refused to process a 13-line post!

It seems to be much worse than a 5,000-word limit.

Do you happen to know what’s going on here?

Thanks!

Bruce

If the bulleted post is an image–it apparently will exceed the 5000-character limit, I think. Either that or they have some sort of a block on large images, though I notice that some posters manage to get some really big photos posted onto the site. I know that if you use more than four or five smiley’s the server won’t let you post. Other than that–you might have to PM a moderator to find out what the problem is.

 

[kernk]

oat soda:

there is nothing to distinguish this religion with any other cult of the last few hunderd years. they all claim to be the truth or the way and many accept Jesus as being some how “divine” or enlightened.

only Jesus said he was God, and that he was the way and truth. these jokers never made a claim like that. and they certainly didn’t rise from the dead to prove it. Jesus is totally unique and bahai is another dime a dozen fantasy.

why would i choose this religion over hari kristnas? or raliens? they all may have some truth to them, but the truth doesn’t subside in them. sounds pretty worldly to me.

Perhaps, I guess that is for God to decide. However, there is much in religious scripture and history that you may not be aware of. For instance, Krishna (a Manifestation of God to the Hindus) did say that He was “the Way” and “the Life” and in some translations “the Truth” as well:

I am . . .The Way, the Fosterer, the Lord, the Judge,
The Witness; the Abode, the Refuge,
The Friend, the Fountain and the Sea of Life . . .
Immortal Life I am.”

(Hindu, Bhagavad Gita (Edwin Arnold tr))

He also stated that He had come in the past and would come again in the future:

From the beginning it was I who taught. . .
I, Unborn, undying, indestructible,
The Lord of all things living . . .
I come, and go, and come. When Righteousness
Declines, . . .when Wickedness
Is strong, I rise, from age to age, and take
Visible shape, and move a man with men,
Succouring the good, thrusting the evil back,
And setting Virtue on her seat again.
Who knows the truth touching my births on earth
And my divine work, when he quits the flesh
Puts on its load no more, falls no more down
. . . to Me he comes!

(Hindu, Bhagavad Gita (Edwin Arnold tr))

Sounds an awful lot like, “In the beginning was the Word . . .”

There are similar statements from Buddha and others. For that matter, Krishna’s statements and Buddha’s statements preceded Christ. So if the historical order of a claim is an argument (which I personally don’t believe it is), then they said it first. With regard to miracles and overcoming death, there are many religions with similar traditions.

Again I don’t mean to be argumentative, just providing some information. With this in mind, I wonder, was it not God that gave Jesus the power to overcome death? Did not God promise mankind in the Old Testament that He would remove death from us if we turn to Him, even before Christ?

“Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die . . .? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.”

(King James Bible, Ezekiel 18:30-32)

(By the way, this chapter, Ezekiel 18, is the one Bruce was mentioning above, but did not have the reference for.)

Is it the blood sacrifice of Christ that is necessary to conquer death, or is it the loving-kindness, the mercy, the contrite heart that He possesses and that He taught to mankind?

“For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings."

(King James Bible, Hosea 6:6)

“O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise. For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.”

(King James Bible, Psalms 51:16)

My point is not to suggest that your understanding is false, it is simply to suggest that the discussion may be far more complex than simple answers can contain. There are many passages in the Bible and other scriptures that can be interpreted in many different ways. As Bahá’ís we strive to understand them in a unifying manner and I think you would be surprised how often this is an easy task.

kernk

 

[BruceDLimber]

flameburns623:

If the bulleted post is an image–it apparently will exceed the 5000-character limit, I think. Either that or they have some sort of a block on large images, though I notice that some posters manage to get some really big photos posted onto the site. I know that if you use more than four or five smiley’s the server won’t let you post.

I’m not sure what you mean by “image,” but what I was trying to post was ordinary text with the forum’s own bullets (selected just above the text-entry window)! Very strange.

Maybe “image” means anything other than vanilla alphameric text. If so, then I humbly suggest the restriction is excessive…

Thanks again!

Bruce

 

[flameburns623]

BruceDLimber:

I’m not sure what you mean by “image,” but what I was trying to post was ordinary text with the forum’s own bullets (selected just above the text-entry window)! Very strange.

Maybe “image” means anything other than vanilla alphameric text. If so, then I humbly suggest the restriction is excessive…

Thanks again!

Bruce

I vaguely recall having a similar problem once and discerned that what I was trying to cut-and-paste was being picked up as an intact image, somehow. I ended up having to cut-n-paste each line of the bulleted text in order to carry it over to the forum. ‘Images’ are things such as photos, smilies, and so forth. Sometimes text is perceived as being an image for some reason. I’m not very webliterate so couldn’t explain the reason why.

So far as the ‘limits’ on this forum–DelphiForums have some drawbacks and limitations as well. I post to several forums which have a layout and function similarly to this one, without the limits that Catholic Answers imposes here. Some of those forums are a little wild-n-woolly, but they are a great deal smaller in size than this one.

You may not be aware of this but CatholicAnswers is not just a web forum; it is also an international apologetics organization with a daily radio program. (It’s part of the Eternal Word Network, a Roman Catholic radio/TV/Internet/podcast broadcasting system). With millions of people hearing about this board via various broadcast media, I’m sure this forum gets ‘hit’ pretty regularly by all kinds of oddballs with various agendas and motivations. The limits probably are needful to keep this board from crashing due to overload.

 

[arthra]

Flameburns wrote:

“I don’t know whether Baha’i’s actually believe that Christ rose from the dead, literally, in a glorified form of the same Earthly body which was laid in the grave three days prior.”

My response to that:

Baha’is believe Jesus resurrection was spiritual not physical … We believe the resurrection was more of a rebirth of hope of His followers that Christ’s Spirit was still vital and alive…

• Art

 

[9Harmony]

oat soda:

there is nothing to distinguish this religion with any other cult of the last few hunderd years. they all claim to be the truth or the way and many accept Jesus as being some how “divine” or enlightened.

only Jesus said he was God, and that he was the way and truth. these jokers never made a claim like that. and they certainly didn’t rise from the dead to prove it. Jesus is totally unique and bahai is another dime a dozen fantasy.

why would i choose this religion over hari kristnas? or raliens? they all may have some truth to them, but the truth doesn’t subside in them. sounds pretty worldly to me.

Hi everyone!

I just wanted to comment here.

Many people I’ve found are not aware that many religions have a similar claim.

CHRISTIANITY, John 14:6

1. I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the
   Father except through Me.

BUDDHISM, Dhammapada 20:274
2. This is the path. There is no other that leads to vision.

ISLAM, Imam’Ali, Hadith
3. Whoso seeks guidence elsewhere, God will lead him astray.

BAHA’I, Tablets of Baha’u’llah, P.169
4. He that hath Me not is bereft of all things. Turn ye away from
all that is on earth and seek none else but Me.

HINDUISM, Bhagavad Gita 18:66
5. Abandoning all duties, come to Me alone for shelter.

ZOROASTRIANISM, The Teachings of the Magi, P.22
6. There is only one religious way. This one way is that of good thoughts, good words, and good deeds, the way of heaven, of light and of purity, of the infinite Creator.

So to me this points that the Christ spirit is the same spirit of God whom comes to us through all of His messengers. This is what is referred to as the Way. The Spirit of God is the Way. In whatever form He appears.

The following is an excerpt from the Baha’i Writings which elaborate on this concept…

“If we are lovers of the light, we adore it in whatever lamp it may become manifest, but if we love the lamp itself and the light is transferred to another lamp, we will neither accept nor sanction it. Therefore, we must follow and adore the virtues revealed in the Messengers of God–whether in Abraham, Moses, Jesus or other Prophets–but we must not adhere to and adore the lamp. We must recognize the sun, no matter from what dawning point it may shine forth, be it Mosaic, Abrahamic or any personal point of orientation whatever, for we are lovers of sunlight and not of orientation. We are lovers of illumination and not of lamps and candles. We are seekers for water, no matter from what rock it may gush forth. We are in need of fruit in whatsoever orchard it may be ripened. We long for rain; it matters not which cloud pours it down. We must not be fettered. If we renounce these fetters, we shall agree, for all are seekers of reality. The counterfeit or imitation of true religion has adulterated human belief, and the foundations have been lost sight of. The variance of these imitations has produced enmity and strife, war and bloodshed. Now the glorious and brilliant twentieth century has dawned, and the divine bounty is radiating universally. The Sun of Truth is shining forth in intense enkindlement. This is, verily, the century when these imitations must be forsaken, superstitions abandoned and God alone worshiped. We must look at the reality of the Prophets and Their teachings in order that we may agree.” - Promulgation of Universal Peace, Abdu’l-Baha, p 152

Have a wonderful rest of the day!

Loving Greetings, Amy

 

[flameburns623]

BruceDLimber:

I discussed forgiveness above. I’ll simply add that if you read Ezekiel, it explicitly rejects the concept of inheritance of sin. (Sorry; I don’t have the citation at hand right now.)

Regards,

Bruce

Try Exekiel, chapters 3, 18, and 33. Popular chapters for a great many different groups.

What you are missing is that ‘original sin’ is not the same thing in Christian theology as ‘actual sin’. Original sin is inherited in the sense that all human beings have a tendency or proclivity to sin: it is our nature to be at enmity against God and to reject His ways and His commands for us. It is this tendency to commit sin which leads to actual sin. Humans are condemned to eternal punishment because of their actual sins, not because they are inheritors of original sin.

However, even Roman Catholics do not believe that those incpable of comprehending the gravity of their actual sins go to hell. (There has been a good deal of speculation on this–Augustine, I believe, suggested that unbaptised infants would spend eternity in a state of natural bliss known as ‘limbo’; this was strictly a Roman Catholic notion and has since been largely abandoned. Most Catholics and all Protestants of whom I am aware believe that unbaptised infants and those who throughout life are not accountable for their sins due to mental defect or disorder, are by the mercy of God, accounted as righteous before Him).

arthra:

Baha’is believe Jesus resurrection was spiritual not physical … We believe the resurrection was more of a rebirth of hope of His followers that Christ’s Spirit was still vital and alive.

It is truly said that the Crucifixion and the Resurrection divide all humanity into two camps. On the one hand, are those who either want to deny that the crucifixion happened at all, or accept the Crucifixion as the terminus of Christ’s ministry. On the other side–the Christian side–are those who accept what the Scriptures say on their face: that Christ knowingly and willingly gave Himself up to be crucified for the sins of all mankind, and raised Himself from the dead as the Firstfruits and proof of His conquest of sin and death for all who would receive Him as Lord and Savior.

The problem for the Baha’i’s is that they must then adopt a quasi-liberal/quasi-literal approach to Scripture. They accept the Virgin Birth BUT reject the Resurrection. They acknowledge the Gospels as reflecting important aspects of the life and teaching of Christ–but anywhere the Gospels suggest that Christ was anything but a divinely-inspired man, they must explain away those passages as either an interpolation by later Christians or as some sort of parallel to other ‘avatars’ of other ages.

I’m sure I’m oversimplifying the issues here but not by too great a stretch. When I was reading about and considering various aspects of the Baha’i Faith, it was this ecclectic syncretism that struck me as not being fully honest–even though I do think that individual Baha’is believe that they ARE being honest, and certainly are sincere in their faith. It was this difficulty in integrating all that I understand and know about what the Scriptures say about Christ, with how Baha’is seem wont to exegete them, which made it difficult for me to sustain an abiding interest in the Baha’i Faith. Despite my great respect for Baha’is, despite my abiding respect and love for the poetic sound of much of their spiritual writings, and despite the great appeal their approach to religion and to life had for me on first blush, this was an irresolvable obstacle for me…

 

[flameburns623]

I think this is the link to Baha’is and Bible prophecy. It doesn’t look like the one I had but mebbe the site has been updated:

bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/founders.htm

Happy reading.

 

[arthra]

Flameburn wrote:

The problem for the Baha’i’s is that they must then adopt a quasi-liberal/quasi-literal approach to Scripture. They accept the Virgin Birth BUT reject the Resurrection. They acknowledge the Gospels as reflecting important aspects of the life and teaching of Christ–but anywhere the Gospels suggest that Christ was anything but a divinely-inspired man, they must explain away those passages as either an interpolation by later Christians or as some sort of parallel to other ‘avatars’ of other ages.

My comment:

For Baha’is the authority is basically our Wrtings and recognized interpretations …so we go by these. More times than not we accept a spiritual interpretation of Bible scripture, but we also accept Qur’an and the writkngs of the Bab and Baha’u’llah. We do accept Christ as a Manifestation of God and this concept is I think not well understood. A Manifestation is a special creation of God from conception with a special role as Mediator between God and His creation. So I think we recognize the divinity of Christ as more than simply an inspired man.

Flameburn:

I’m sure I’m oversimplifying the issues here but not by too great a stretch. When I was reading about and considering various aspects of the Baha’i Faith, it was this ecclectic syncretism that struck me as not being fully honest–even though I do think that individual Baha’is believe that they ARE being honest, and certainly are sincere in their faith.

Comment:

The Baha’i Faith is not simply in our view a manufactured or syncretic religion… Someone who decided OK let’s incorporate this and leave that out… In our view our religion is a revelation just like the previous ones that we know about in mentioned in the Bible. There’s an essay on this topic of syncretism and the Baha’i Faith at

bahai-library.com/articles/rg.syncretism.html

But I’m glad we can try to sort these things out and appreciate your sincere questions Flameburn! From this we can at least I think increase respect and undertstanding of each other’s faith.

• Art

 

[oat_soda]

They acknowledge the Gospels as reflecting important aspects of the life and teaching of Christ–but anywhere the Gospels suggest that Christ was anything but a divinely-inspired man, they must explain away those passages as either an interpolation by later Christians or as some sort of parallel to other ‘avatars’ of other ages.

these are good points. bahai is another mani. they are exactly the same. it’s just another gnostic religion that came out of persia. they are a dime a dozen. and what makes this one any more true then manicheism which disapeared over 1,000 years ago? another example are the shiks or the guys with the turbans. what’s the difference? why not be a harni christna?

anyone can find similarities between different religions. some anti-cathoilcs try to make the case that catholicism is really just some isis cult or a mystery cult. but taking things out of context and trying to show they are the same is not a honest way to compare two religions.

again, what seperates the wheat in this case and the chaff is the totally unique view that Jesus is God, the Holy Spirit is God, and the Father is God in one Trinity.

 

[lehket]

DaveBj:

At that time my understanding of Christian theology was minimal. I knew what original sin was, but had no clue about Calvinism/Arminianism, etc. What I was referring to was my awareness of my own sins and the perceived lack of any mechanism for forgiveness/receiving forgiveness within the Baha’i faith.

Dave,

I get what you’re saying. It may be that you didn’t have a good handle at that time on how the Baha’i teachings deal with these questions. They do deal with them, of course.

One of the things that has always struck me as odd about Christian orthodoxy (and this is not meant to be derogatory; I grew up in a conservative Protestant family and my wife grew up in a fairly conservative Catholic family, so I have a lot of respect for both of those traditions) is its tendency to impose a sort of legalism on God. Sin appears to impose itself upon the creation from outside, as though God had not planned for it from the get-go, and then once it’s on the scene, an elaborate scheme has to be concocted so God can, in His mercy, get around His self-imposed sense of justice.

But God is God. Sin did not impose itself from the outside upon His plan. Surely He had fully accounted for it “before” the creation (in a causal sense, not a temporal sense). God can forgive whoever He desires to forgive. He doesn’t need to construct elaborate mechanisms to counterbalance mercy and justice.

Baha’u’llah’s teachings on sin and redemption are, actually, pretty similar to those of Jesus. Baha’u’llah states that He has taken on Himself all manner of suffering and affliction for the express purpose of liberating humanity. He states that whoever truly turns to the Manifestation of God will be forgiven their sins and compensated for their shortcomings. He upholds the idea that faith must preceed works, but that works are an indispensible sign of true faith (as the Bible says, faith without works is dead).

I can’t speak for anyone else, but I, too, am painfully aware of my own sinfulness and failings. But I have faith–because I have experienced it–in God’s love and forgiveness, and in Baha’u’llah’s ability to, as He put it, “unfold the drooping wings of every broken bird, and start it on its flight.”

I believe this is exactly the same thing that Jesus accomplished and throughout the centuries and still accomplishes in many hearts today. Which, to me, proves that Jesus and Baha’u’llah are both true Messengers of God.

Your mileage, of course, may vary.

–Dale

 

[kernk]

oat soda:

anyone can find similarities between different religions. some anti-cathoilcs try to make the case that catholicism is really just some isis cult or a mystery cult. but taking things out of context and trying to show they are the same is not a honest way to compare two religions.

again, what seperates the wheat in this case and the chaff is the totally unique view that Jesus is God, the Holy Spirit is God, and the Father is God in one Trinity.

I do think that the point Bruce is trying to make is being missed, at least by oat_soda. To sggest that the Baha’i Faith is a superficial undertaking of well intentioned liberal thinkers is to misunderstand the history and the basis of the Bahá’í Faith.

The Bahá’í Faith is not an eclectic attempt to harmonize all faiths – the harmony of all faiths is a teaching of Bahá’u’lláh which is one part of a weighty Revelation. Just as forgiveness does not encompass Christianity but is only one teaching of the weighty Revelation of Jesus Christ. Bahá’ís believe that Bahá’u’lláh is the fulfillment of the promises of all religions and that His Revelation (which comprises hundreds of volumes) is the Word of God given to humanity for this age.

That it is “easy to find similarities between different religions” is just a verification of one of the principles taught by Bahá’u’lláh.

For a sample of the Bahá’í scriptures and specifically an understanding of Bahá’u’lláh’s claims of both Divinity and fulfillment of Christian Prophecies I would suggest that the interested reader examine Bahá’u’lláh’s “Tablet to the Christians.” While you may not agree with the document and the message it puts forward, I hope that suggestions that the Bahá’í Faith is simply a loose attempt to synergize other Faiths will be sufficiently rebutted and you will have a better understanding of the dependance of the Faith on Divine Revelation through Bahá’u’lláh – Just as Christianity is not simply a reform movement within Judaism but is based on Divine Revelation through Jesus Christ.

Here are two links to Bahá’u’lláh’s “Tablet to the Christians” as we call it.

users.tc3net.com/bfaith/tablet.html

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TB/tb-3.html

Also, below is a link to some introductory materials that my community has put on the web to explain the Faith. I hope it also is helpful in clarifying the depth and breath of the Faith for oat_soda and others who may not understand the Faiths full history and teachings.

users.tc3net.com/bfaith/ (from this link, proceed to the “More In-depth” link and introduction” and “Who are the Bahá’ís” links once you get there.

kernk

 

[lehket]

oat soda:

there is nothing to distinguish this religion with any other cult of the last few hunderd years. they all claim to be the truth or the way and many accept Jesus as being some how “divine” or enlightened.

only Jesus said he was God, and that he was the way and truth. these jokers never made a claim like that. and they certainly didn’t rise from the dead to prove it. Jesus is totally unique and bahai is another dime a dozen fantasy.

why would i choose this religion over hari kristnas? or raliens? they all may have some truth to them, but the truth doesn’t subside in them. sounds pretty worldly to me.

You’re entitled to your opinion, of course. But I feel there is a very real distinction. Jesus said that one could tell true prophets from false ones by their fruits, and in one of the epistles it is written that we shoudl try the spirits to see if they are from God (as opposed to merely rejecting them out of hand, or blindly accepting them). I don’t know how much you have actually studied the Baha’i Faith, but I would suggest that unless one has taken some time to investigate it in a bit of detail, one is not really in a position to judge it.

For example, regarding the claims that you presume Baha’u’llah did not make:

“The door of the knowledge of the Ancient Being hath ever been, and will continue for ever to be, closed in the face of men. No man’s understanding shall ever gain access unto His holy court. As a token of His mercy, however, and as a proof of His loving-kindness, He hath manifested unto men the Day Stars of His divine guidance, the Symbols of His divine unity, and hath ordained the knowledge of these sanctified Beings to be identical with the knowledge of His own Self. Whoso recognizeth them hath recognized God. Whoso hearkeneth to their call, hath hearkened to the Voice of God, and whoso testifieth to the truth of their Revelation, hath testified to the truth of God Himself. Whoso turneth away from them, hath turned away from God, and whoso disbelieveth in them, hath disbelieved in God. Every one of them is the Way of God that connecteth this world with the realms above, and the Standard of His Truth unto every one in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. They are the Manifestations of God amidst men, the evidences of His Truth, and the signs of His glory.” (Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 49-50)

“O Jews! If ye be intent on crucifying once again Jesus, the Spirit of God, put Me to death, for He hath once more, in My person, been made manifest unto you. Deal with Me as ye wish, for I have vowed to lay down My life in the path of God. I will fear no one, though the powers of earth and heaven be leagued against Me. Followers of the Gospel! If ye cherish the desire to slay Muhammad, the Apostle of God, seize Me and put an end to My life, for I am He, and My Self is His Self. Do unto Me as ye like, for the deepest longing of Mine heart is to attain the presence of My Best-Beloved in His Kingdom of Glory. Such is the Divine decree, if ye know it. Followers of Muhammad! If it be your wish to riddle with your shafts the breast of Him Who hath caused His Book the Bayan to be sent down unto you, lay hands on Me and persecute Me, for I am His Well-Beloved, the revelation of His own Self, though My name be not His name. I have come in the shadows of the clouds of glory, and am invested by God with invincible sovereignty. He, verily, is the Truth, the Knower of things unseen. I, verily, anticipate from you the treatment ye have accorded unto Him that came before Me. To this all things, verily, witness, if ye be of those who hearken. O people of the Bayan! If ye have resolved to shed the blood of Him Whose coming the Báb hath proclaimed, Whose advent Muhammad hath prophesied, and Whose Revelation Jesus Christ Himself hath announced, behold Me standing, ready and defenseless, before you. Deal with Me after your own desires.” (Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 100-102)

“Say, Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled! This is the Word which the Son concealed, when to those around Him He said: ‘Ye cannot bear it now.’ And when the appointed time was fulfilled and the Hour had struck, the Word shone forth above the horizon of the Will of God. Beware, O followers of the Son, that ye cast it not behind your backs. Take ye fast hold of it. Better is this for you than all that ye possess. Verily He is nigh unto them that do good. The Hour which We had concealed from the knowledge of the peoples of the earth and of the favoured angels hath come to pass. Say, verily, He hath testified of Me, and I do testify of Him. Indeed, He hath purposed no one other than Me. Unto this beareth witness every fair-minded and understanding soul.” (Tablets of Baha’u’llah, p. 11)

Whether or not you accept these claims, He did make them.

–Dale

 

[BruceDLimber]

flameburns623:

I think this is the link to Baha’is and Bible prophecy. It doesn’t look like the one I had but mebbe the site has been updated:

bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/founders.htm

Hi, Flame!

You don’t need the “founders” part: the rest will do fine!

Regards,

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

Dave, hi!

I now have the citations for the original-sin stuff handy; here they are.

Regards,

Bruce

---

Ezekiel 18:14-17
But if this man begets a son, who sees all the sins which his father has done, and does not do likewise, … he shall not die for his father’s iniquity; he shall surely live.
Thus the son will not be judged or die for the sins of his father, and sin is not inherited.

Ezekiel 18:19-20
Why? should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father? When the son has done what is lawful and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live. The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the
wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Romans 2:5-6
The righteous judgment of God Who will render to every man according to his deeds.

Revelation 20:13
All were judged by what they had done.

That is, at the last judgement, all men, whether they lived before Christ or after, would not be judged in context of original sin but by their deeds. As otherwise, those men who lived before Christ
would have no hope of salvation under the doctrine of original sin.
Many people have argued for a doctrine of “original sin,” i.e., sin that is “born into” persons as human beings. There is no passage in the Bible that directly teaches such a doctrine. Paul related the sinful condition of the human race to the original transgression of Adam, insisting at the same time, however, that the result of sin (death) “spread to all people” not simply because of Adam’s sin but “because all people sinned.” (Romans 5:12)
(Harper’s Bible Dictionary, p. 955)

I Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

And the Baha’i scriptures say this:
Adam is the cause of man’s physical life; but the Reality of Christ - that is to say, the Word of God - is the cause of spiritual life.
(Some Answered Questions, pages 119-120)

But the mass of the Christians believe that, as Adam ate of the forbidden tree, He sinned in that He disobeyed, and that the disastrous consequences of this disobedience have been transmitted as a heritage and have remained among His descendants. Hence Adam became the cause of the death of humanity. This explanation is unreasonable and evidently wrong, for it means that all men, even the Prophets and the Messengers of God, … have become without reason guilty sinners.
(Some Answered Questions, page 120)

The above is the basis for the Baha’i rejection of original sin.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings!
oat soda:

there is nothing to distinguish this religion with any other cult of the last few hunderd years. they all claim to be the truth or the way and many accept Jesus as being somehow “divine” or enlightened.

only Jesus said he was God, and that he was the way and truth. these jokers never made a claim like that. and they certainly didn’t rise from the dead to prove it. Jesus is totally unique and bahai is another dime a dozen fantasy.

why would i choose this religion over hari kristnas? or raliens? they all may have some truth to them, but the truth doesn’t subside in them. sounds pretty worldly to me.

I’ll ignore for the nonce the tone of your message and simply answer its charges.

First off, the Baha’i Faith is hardly a “cult!” It is an established world religion, and despite its still-small numbers, is indeed according to the Encyclopedia Britannica the second most widespread religion in the world (ranking immediately after Christianity)! There’s a full checklist of what does or doesn’t make a religion a cult; I’ll post it below. As the document I’ll post demonstrates, the Baha’i Faith in no way qualifies for such an epithet!

As to the status of Jesus, that’s already been covered elsewhere here: suffice it to say that the Baha’i dual-stations concept covers very nicely how He can properly be addressed as God while not being God Himself (as Jesus Himself points out in the Gospels, please note!).

And you’re quite free to choose any religion you want. But since you asked, what the Baha’i Faith has going for it (that the others don’t) is that while of corse repeating the universal spiritual teachings all the great religions state, it contains God’s laws for THIS day, not for some others millenia ago!

Christ promised He had more for us (for which we weren’t ready then), and it’s now been given.

And BTW, we Baha’is most certainly DO accept Christ’s claims, little as you may realize this.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

Primarily in response to Oat:

**HOW AND WHY THE BAHA’I FAITH **
IS NOT A CULT

Based on “Combatting Mind Control” by Steven Hassan, here are the criteria for determing “cults”:

1. How new members are found.
   Dangerous Cults: With many cults, you don’t get to know what you are getting into until after you have made a commitment.

Baha’i Faith: What you see is what you get: there are no secrets.

1. How funding is obtained.
   Dangerous Cults: Commercial operations and/or mandatory donations (often large percentages) by members.
   Baha’i Faith: Has no commercial businesses, collection plates are never passed, and donations are completely voluntary and accepted from enrolled members only.
2. Charismatic central figure.
   Dangerous Cults: Cults usually have a central living figure who often lives on income from adherents.
   Baha’i Faith: There is no living central figure in the Baha’i Faith (and there has been none since 1957); government is by bodies freely elected from the membership. There is no clergy, paid or unpaid.
3. Investigation of truth.
   Dangerous Cults: Members are often told that it is dangerous to investigate other religions.
   Baha’i Faith: Baha’is are encouraged to investigate all religions, and to appreciate truth no matter where it is found.
4. Behavior control, as defined by Hassan. *
   Dangerous Cults: Persons may be told where to live, what to wear, or what (and how much) to eat. Sleep and freedom to travel or move about may be limited.
   Baha’i Faith: Baha’is do not live in communes, but in the world as normal individuals and families. They wear no special or required clothing. The religion has no food requirements other than
   abstaining from alcohol, and the annual nineteen-day fast during which food and drink is not consumed during daylight hours only. Baha’is may get as much sleep as they want, eat whatever they want, work and live where they want.
5. Thought control as defined by Hassan. *
   Dangerous Cults: There is often use of “thought-stopping” techniques such as chanting or speaking in tongues for long periods of time, setting up a type of hypnotic atmosphere.
   Baha’i Faith: Chanting and prayer are not prolonged, nor is their intent to block thought. There is no speaking in tongues. Thought and investigation are encocuraged.
6. Emotional control, as defined by Hassan. *
   Dangerous Cults: Guilt and fear are often used to control members, including alternating praise and public humiliation or forced confession, and indoctrination against leaving the group.
   Baha’i Faith: Confession to and humiliation of others are forbidden. Members are free to leave the Faith at any time if they so choose, without stigma.
7. What happens when people leave the religion.
   Dangerous Cults: People who leave cults are often considered to be dangerous and are usually shunned.
   Baha’i Faith: Baha’is are generally permitted and encouraged to remain friends with people who leave. The only exception is in the case of a person declared to be a “Covenant breaker” by the
   Universal House of Justice due to an attempt to split the Baha’i Faith. There is no condemnation of those who volumtarily choose to leave.
   o O o

• Hassan, Steven, Combatting Cult Mind Control, Park Street Press, One Park Street, Rochester, Vermont 05767, 1988, ISBN 0-89281-311-3. “The Four Components of Mind Control”, pages 59-67.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Friends, the Roman Catholic Church itself has published an excellent pamphlet about the Baha’i Faith! :

I’m posting it in the messages below in hopes that you’ll find it of interest.

Many regards, and enjoy!

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

Getting to Know People of Other Faiths No. 8

WHAT IS THE BAHA’I FAITH?

Introduction

In the Vatican II ‘Declaration on the relationship of the Church
with Non-Christians’ we find that the Church speaks with warmth
and openness and greets People of Faith as partners in a single
great enterprise. These religions contain much that is good and
holy and provide ways of salvation for millions of people all
over the world. Throughout the documents of Vatican II we find
encouragement to respect, accept and meet as friends, those who
profess faiths different from our own. The Baha’i Faith will be
introduced here in this spirit.

Who are the Baha’is?

The Baha’i founders sprang from Islamic roots, but are seen by
the Baha’is as founding a religion that fulfills all previous
religions. Today Baha’is are people who formerly had different
religious backgrounds. They have been Christians, Jews, Muslims,
Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Zoroastrians or else they had no
religion at all. They give equal homage to all the past
prophets, but believe that religion progressively evolves, and
the Baha’u’llah is God’s spokesman for this age. Although
Baha’is are from different religious, racial, national, economic
and social classes, the Baha’i teachings gave given them a higher
loyalty–the loyalty to humanity.

To a Baha’i there is no demarcation between religion and everyday
life. The most important prayer, Baha’is say, is a person’s
daily life. Religion, in other words, is an attitude towards God
reflected in life.

Today there are between 5 and 6 million Baha’is in the world,
extending over more than three hundred and forty countries,
territories and island groups. In England there are 6,000
registered Baha’is (1989) with 180 local Assemblies, resident in
over 400 localities. At least 9 people are needed to form a
local assembly. The Scriptures of the Baha’i Faith consist of
the writings of the founders and are translated into over six
hundred languages. The rapid growth they have experienced puts
them in the category of a world religion, the youngest in the
line of the prophetic tradition.

Origins of the Baha’i Faith

The Forerunner of the Baha’i Faith was a young Persian merchant
known as the Bab (the Gate), who in 1844 proclaimed Himself to be
a Messenger of God and a herald of One greater than Himself–One
who would inaugurate a new era in religion and civilization.
LIke earlier Messengers of God, the Bab was opposed and
denounced. After six years of persecution He was publicly
martyred at the age of 30 in Tabriz.

Its founder was Baha’u’llah (the Glory of God), a Persian
nobleman who in 1863 declared Himself to be the One whose coming
the Bab and all the previous Prophets had foretold. Like His
predecessor, He was bitterly opposed and persecuted. During
nearly forty years of exile and imprisonment He committed to
writing the teachings of His revelation, some of them in letters
to the most important kings and leaders of religion, as well and
teaching and training His followers. His fourth and last place
of banishment, reached in 1865, was the prison city of 'Akka
(Acre), Palestine, where He passed away in 1892 at the age of
seventy-four.

Its authorised interpreter and exemplar was 'Abdu’l-Baha (the
servant of the Glory), eldest son of Baha’u’llah, who was
appointed by his father as the Centre of His Covenant and the one
to whom all must turn for instruction and guidance. 'Abdu’l-Baha
was the close companion and constant helper of his father, whose
sufferings he shared. He remained a prisoner until 1908, when
the old regime in Turkey was overthrown and all religious and
political prisoners were liberated. Afterwards he travelled
widely in Egypt, Europe and America, explaining the principles of
the Faith and inspiring and directing the activities of its
followers throughout the world. He passed away in Haifa in 1921,
mourned by people of all faiths. His life was and continues to
be a shining example to all. In his will and testament,
'Abdu’l-Baha appointed his grandson, Shoghi Effendi, to be the
Guardian of the Faith, and the interpreter of its scripture.
Under his guiding hand, the faith spread rapidly. He passed away
in London in 1957. Since 1963, the Faith has been under the
guidance of the Universal House of Justice.

(CONTINUES.)

 

[BruceDLimber]

(PART TWO)

The Baha’i Faith

Proclaims: The Oneness of God, the Oneness of Religion and of
Mankind, and the equality of men and women. It encourages the
elimination of prejudice of all kinds, universal education,
elimination of extremes of wealth and poverty, the protection of
cultural diversity. It also advocates individual search after
truth, the harmony of science and religion, use of an auxiliary
universal language and world government.

The Baha’i House of Worship

A Baha’i house of worship is open to people of all nations,
races, classes and creeds. It is a place of prayer and
meditation for all, a gift from the Baha’is and a demonstration
of their faith in the oneness of God, the oneness of His Prophets
and the oneness of mankind.

There is one major Baha’i House of Worship in each continent.
For local regular gatherings the Baha’is hold meetings in their
homes or in hired halls. The community has neither a priesthood
nor rituals. The Baha’is see their teachings as a ringing call
to action. They see them as offering hope, courage and vision,
in a world beset with universal problems.

Baha’i Administration

Consultation is the keynote of all Baha’i administration.

There is no clergy and no ritual.

The Scripture is in written form, preserved and authentic.
Administrative bodies are called Spiritual Assemblies; they are
local, national, and international. All Assemblies meet in a
spirit of prayer.

These spiritual Assemblies are elected by the people, but their
responsibility is trust from God to whom alone they are
answerable.

There is no seeking for votes, no candidates, no platform
promises, no parties.

The Nineteen Day Feast is a community occasion, for the reading
of prayers, discussions of affairs with the Local Spiritual
Assembly, and material refreshment together.

The Universal House of Justice–an elected International body
constituted by Baha’u’llah as the supreme legislative and
governing body of the Faith–carries out its duties at the Baha’i
World Centre in Haifa Israel.

Only members of the Baha’i Faith may contribute to the Baha’i
Fund.

Questions for discussion

1. Baha’is clearly place great emphasis on social teaching and
   the community of humankind. How do we as Christians respond to the social teaching of the Church?
2. In what areas would cooperation with people of [the] Baha’i
   Faith be most fruitful and possible?

(CONTINUES)