Baha'i: Jesus Claims to be God (and how do you respond to those claims?)

[Servant19]

Where does Baha’u’llah say that Jesus is God in the flesh ?

Just copy and paste that part

Um, St.Paul doesn’t say that the Spirit should confess that Jesus is God.

Twisting the Scriptures is all I’m seeing…

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[Techno2000]

Um, St.Paul doesn’t say that the Spirit should confess that Jesus is God.

Twisting the Scriptures is all I’m seeing…

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You mean that the Spirits that were speaking through Baha’u’lláh shouldn’t have to confess that Jesus is God ?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Here’s a brief understanding of the typology.

catholicbible101.com/biblicaltypology.htm

Another aspect not elaborated on…

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&sqi=2&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.catholicbible101.com%2F7deadlysins.htm&ei=cn6JVLeZFsGANo7Bg5gB&usg=AFQjCNF-qQv5jqDFvD6imtaMWVBbfnEGpw&bvm=bv.81456516,d.eXY

Cardinal Henri de Lubac,

One must receive the faith of God in the spirit which the church teaches us, and must not do like the heretics who search the Scriptures only in order to find some confirmation of their own doctrines.

Their pride raises them “higher than the cedars of Lebanon” and their sophistries are full of deceit. But it is no use for them to pretend that they have a tradition which comes down from the apostles; they are professors of error.

While the faithful Christian in no way strays from the great tradition, they appeal to secret Scriptures or to secret traditions in order to confirm their lies. Thus they want to make us worship a Christ whom they have invented “in solitude,” while the only authentic Christ reveals Himself “within the house.”

They disfigure those vessels of gold and silver which are the sacred texts, in order to fashion them into objects according to their own fancy.

They are thieves and adulterers who seize the divine words only to deform them by their perverse interpretations.

They are counterfeiters for they have coined their doctrine outside the Church. False teachers, false prophets, spinning out of their own minds what they propound, they are the liars of whom Ezekiel speaks. By a perverse trickery they often cover their idols, that is, their empty dogmas, with sweetness and chastity so that their propositions may be smuggled more easily into the ears of their listeners and lead them astray more surely.

They all call Jesus their master and embrace him; but their kiss is the kiss of Judas.

And this also we must know that as the gates of cities have each their own names, in the same way the gates of Hades might be named after the species of sins; so that one gate of Hades is called “fornication,” through which fornicators go, and another “denial,” through which the deniers of God go down into Hades. And likewise already each of the heterodox and of those who have begotten any “knowledge which is falsely so called (I Tim. 6:20),” has built a gate of Hades - Marcion one gate, and Basilides another, and Valentinus another.

The deceiver enemy, the devil, presents stone instead of bread (Luke 11:11). This is what the devil wants, that the stone may be changed into bread, so that men may be fed not by bread but by stone which has the shape of the bread.

If you see the heretics eat their false teachings as bread know that their discussions, and teaching are a stone which the devil presents to us to eat as if it is bread. . .

May we be watchful and so not eat the stone of the devil believing that we are growing up by the Lord’s bread.

The devil speaks and depends upon the Scripture… May he not deceive me even if he uses the Scripture.

All agree Jesus Christ indeed comes to judge the living and the dead pre-ordained from before creation. Why does he do this and what do we mean in understanding the final judgement and it consequence of man and evil. The kerygma in relation to dogma remains intact as does the tradition. It could be no other for as the Lord says, “Let the children comes to me”. The wisdom isn’t missed.

As we see it leads many astray. Same as I mentioned with Helen Schueman, her student and Priest…

Father Groeschel said, and over the years had realized that any attempt to define them was futile. “What I learned, I think, is that these things can be both real and imaginary, paranormal and spiritual, divine and diabolical. And that when you enter the world of the supernatural, the worst mistake you can make is to impose a ultrarealist point of view. You can’t make those kinds of distinctions about experiences that are beyond our comprehension. You have to do as Moses Maimonides instructed and teach your students to say, ‘I don’t know.’”

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CEgQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.beliefnet.com%2FFaiths%2F2004%2F07%2FThe-Making-Of-A-Course-In-Miracles.aspx%3Fp%3D3&ei=mYKJVN3oG8GvggSir4DYDA&usg=AFQjCNF3syhgZI7Q5-Rle2zMwM0K1rMikQ

You live in the supernatural world, the physical is of- time, a learning experience of free will and salvation which will cease to exist when and be renewed at the final judgement. Thats why as Basil and so many others they denounced the world and walked away from the material and physical trappings, also Bible. Christ didn’t come to change the free will, but asks a simple question, “who do you say I AM”. A King on a donkey.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I think the Pharisees threw stones at Jesus because they could not really grasp the true meaning of His words, nor the true meaning of their own Scriptures.

I think they told Him “Gobbledygook”, but that word was lost in translation…



.

Are you not in error because you do not know the scriptures or the power of God? (Mark 12:24) :sad_yes:

The Pharisees grasped Jesus’ words PERFECTLY. They understood that He was claiming to be God, and they sought to stone Him for blasphemy.

John 10:32-33
32Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”

Everyone gets it but you.

 

[Randy_Carson]

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In all seriousness though, what is all this mockery, derision and childsplay?

Really? You cannot hold an intellectual dialogue with members of a Faith who are trying their best to answer your questions as systematically as possible without mocking you or calling you names or calling your religious belief names? So you resort to mockery, sarcasm and denigration?

Is that what Jesus taught?

Is this representative of Jesus’ Faith in this day and age?
I can see so many posts resorting to mockery.

I’m embarrassed … really…

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As well you should be. After months and months and thread after thread, you claim that we have not been engaged in “intellectual dialogue”?

A lot of folks have put in hundreds of hours explaining the truth to you.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Part of the issue as I see is the simplicity of the east with essence and energies is used in a unintended manner, which this theology and tradition must be understood also in the Latin theology which distinguishes between knowing the Divine Essence, and comprehending the Divine Nature. We share in the Divine Essence by Grace, and especially in Glory and the Beatific Vision, what’s being referred to is the Divine Nature, an infinite reality that belongs to God alone. The Divine Essence is never without its Energy, in Latin theology the term Divine Essence is synonymous with the Divine Nature and may be interchanged. The Divine Nature, is beyond anything of creatures; its not merely a reflection in a mirror, but literally is Essence in the mirror, only difference being the opposition of persons understood in the internal Godhead. This is no different than the words posted being a reflection of thought. The physical existence is predicated on the thought. But the complete thought indeed existed prior, both are the same in this sense, thus the Word of God.

In this sense its correct when we talk about the simplicity of the mystical in the east and logical elaboration in comprehension of the west.

I have to think through this more as its an on-going reality which is presently being consolidated as is the Church itself, so one hand and the other work in unison as intended by the Lord.

 

[Servant19]

How can immaterial things have a composition??

It’s simply irrational…

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This is one question which has not been answered.

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[Servant19]

So here’s another dialogue. I asked:

And where does it say that the Holy Spirit is God?

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to which I received this response:

Genesis 1:2 “and the spirit of God moved over the waters”

so I stated:

Yes the Holy Spirit emanates FROM (of) God, that doesn’t make Him God.

Light rays emanate FROM (of) the Sun, that doesn’t make the light rays the Sun…

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and this was the response:

So according to Baha’l men become Angels like Gabriel and then overpower a women and have many supernatural children. You see you don’t deny this part only that God is Jesus.

How is that final response an answer to the problem posed?

Which Apostle stated that the Holy Spirit is God?

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[Servant19]

Please go ahead and bury me with Paul quotes as well dear Randy…

I chose Peter because I knew He was key to the Catholics.

I could just as easily have said Paul.

There are many occasions that he refers to Jesus as Lord. Be he also advises that Sara called Abraham Lord.

On several occasions he says God AND Jesus.

If Paul knew Jesus is God, then why distinguish between God and Jesus? Why not just say “God”:

Quote:
Hebrews 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds

This should instead read:

Quote:
1 God, Jesus who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds

…please also notice the words I removed in the second quote.

Quote:
1 Corinthians 1:4
4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;

should instead read:

Quote:
4 I thank Jesus always on your behalf, for the grace of Jesus which is given you by Jesus Christ;

Quote:
Ephesians 1:
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

should instead read:

2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God Jesus Christ"

It’s really not hard to do it. Paul had ample opportunity to give us the truth, if Jesus is God…

This is another set of problems that have not been addressed.

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[GaryTaylor]

Which Apostle stated that the Holy Spirit is God?

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17 “‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out My Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved

Course this is further discerned and elaborated on by St Basil among others in his work on the Holy Spirit in which the mystery was further affirmed through the doxology-tradition in which this was collated in relation to the early church fathers by St Basil and others. Course by the time of post Nicaea the writings become numerous. These same writings though consistent within the Church in worship, on the exterior level were suppressed and in many ways through persecution historically, which is noted by St Paul in passing his letters. Though they always existed. Further the conflict with the pagans resulted in the destruction of the Ancient library of Alexandria. Which we can see through St Basil, Origin, St Athanasius and St Augustine, as for example with Origen his mentions the condemned gospels in 240-AD, such as Thomas which disappeared from history for a very long time. And so too many were completely lost. They were easily condemned as the strayed from tradition or orthodoxy which is often presented today that these beliefs were held prior, which is historically inaccurate, though what is true is the belief in contrary can be seen in the Church and is documented such as with St Cyprian, they knew when another Bishop taught contrary to the word once and forever given, by their profession of faith. Its the faith and person-apostolic succession which has continuity and in relation to holy scripture.

Unfortunately this has always been an issue and is witnessed in multiple ways right here in the other threads The difference is in degree, not kind. In other words to them anything but this is innovation. Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

So the further discernment though still much was lost can be see in relation to the continued understanding through the Holy Spirit, such as with St John in his homilies and teachings.

St. Chrysostom prefers to indicate the sameness of the Son and the Holy Spirit with the adjectives: “of the same honor” (ομότιμος), “of equal honor” (ισότιμος) and “equal” (ίσος), or with such formulations as “not of another essence” (ουχ ετέρας ουσίας) and “one is the authority of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit” (μία η εξουσία του Πατρός και του Υιού και του Αγίου Πνεύματος)

 

[Randy_Carson]

I feel sad I have to type what I am typing…

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You could always stop posting. Anytime. Now would be fine. Really. :sad_yes:

 

[Servant19]

17 “‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out My Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved

Dear Gary, this verse in the Bible tells me that God will pour out the Holy Spirit upon all mankind in the Last Days.

How does it tell me that the Holy Spirit is actually God?

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[GaryTaylor]

Matthew
Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. 20"For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."

Matthew
and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

This is fraternal correction, its applied equally well to the Churches. The profession of faith is dependent on this. This is what protects semi-arian, arian and contrary emphasis and is blessed by consensus of faith, Father, Son, Holy Spirit. God only blesses His own gifts. Nothing which is not of Him. This isn’t to be understood in numbers but in that the truth is the truth, regardless who believes it. The Lord cannot lie nor is He the God of confusion. Thats not His gift.

Here though not completely “orthodox” conveyes the understanding…

The promise is applied to the public prayer of the congregation, as we see in what is called “the prayer of St. Chrysostom” in the English Prayer book. Are gathered together. For the purpose of worship. It is a simpler form of the word used in Hebrews 10:25, “Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together.” In my Name (εἰς τὸ ἐμὸν ὄνομα); literally, into my Name; i.e. with love to me, yearning for union with me, and acting for my glory. This would imply decent and orderly meeting for the highest ends. There am I in the midst of them. Christ promises a real, actual presence, though invisible, as true as when he appeared to his disciples after his resurrection, as true as when the Shechinah shone in tabernacle or temple. The rabbis had a saying that if two sat at table and conversed about the Law of God, the Shechinah rested upon them. The promise in the text, of course, implies Christ’s omnipresence and omniscience. This is his blessing on united, congregational prayer.

In other words the Church came together for Nicaea to profess the one faith still professed. The Lord only blesses His own gifts.

 

[Servant19]

This is fraternal correction, its applied equally well to the Churches. The profession of faith is dependent on this. This is what protects semi-arian, arian and contrary emphasis and is blessed by consensus of faith, Father, Son, Holy Spirit. God only blesses His own gifts. Nothing which is not of Him. This isn’t to be understood in numbers but in that the truth is the truth, regardless who believes it. The Lord cannot lie nor is He the God of confusion. Thats not His gift.

Here though not completely “orthodox” conveyes the understanding…

In other words the Church came together for Nicaea to profess the one faith still professed. The Lord only blesses His own gifts.

Thankyou, so does any gathering of people coming together in the name of Jesus take precedence over the teachings of Paul and Peter?

Who has more authority? The Jesus present and teaching in a gathering in my home town, or the Jesus revealed to Paul, for example?

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[IgnatianPhilo]

Ok show me where I said that Christians found no profit in worshiping Jesus?

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Tell me what is more profitable, worshipping Jesus who is not God, or worshipping in a Jewish manner a unitarian God.

 

[Servant19]

Tell me what is more profitable, worshipping Jesus who is not God, or worshipping in a Jewish manner a unitarian God.

Worshiping Jesus, every single time…

Jews did not get this teaching. When Jews pray they pray to a figment of their imagination, and they call that God, yes they declare that it is one God, but no human being knows what they are actually praying to.

A Manifestation of God gives humans everything they will require for worship. All the tributes of God are found in His Temple, and they can be meditated upon and conceptualised.

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[GaryTaylor]

Thankyou, so does any gathering of people coming together in the name of Jesus take precedence over the teachings of Paul and Peter?

Who has more authority? The Jesus present and teaching in a gathering in my home town, or the Jesus revealed to Paul, for example?

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The Church in unison and in this the truth illuminates the truth. The bible is a matter of complete content/context often dismissed by pretext. St Paul by pretext was elevated to the protestant Pope is error.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Worshiping Jesus, every single time…

Jews did not get this teaching. When Jews pray they pray to a figment of their imagination, and they call that God, yes they declare that it is one God, but no human being knows what they are actually praying to.

A Manifestation of God gives humans everything they will require for worship. All the tributes of God are found in His Temple, and they can be meditated upon and conceptualised.

.

Tell me what is more profitable a muslim praying to their unitarian God they refuse to associate with anything created (like Jews) or the Christian praying to Jesus?

 

[eddie_too]

none of the “manifestations” gave us the Real Presence of God in the Most Holy Eucharist.

only Jesus, the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity did that. that is probably because all of the “manifestations” that non-Christians speak of were unable to work the miracle that is the Real Presence of God in the Blessed Sacrament.

as an aside, anyone can bring up nonsensical questions and objections. those who are most ignorant will most often use this tactic.

the very fact that the bahai do not understand that they are taking sacred scripture completely out of context in their interpretations is a sign of their invincible ignorance.

the very fact that to a bahai it makes sense that the people who wrote sacred scripture do not know what it means or what the authors meant to say when they wrote it displays the depth of the blind faith that possesses them.

it is impossible to engage in a fruitful and intellectual discussion with people who are possessed by blind faith.

to be possessed by blind faith means that logic, reason and facts are neither necessary nor of any value.

 

[arthra]

Worshiping Jesus, every single time…

Jews did not get this teaching. When Jews pray they pray to a figment of their imagination, and they call that God, yes they declare that it is one God, but no human being knows what they are actually praying to.

A Manifestation of God gives humans everything they will require for worship. All the tributes of God are found in His Temple, and they can be meditated upon and conceptualised.

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Hmmm… I was thinking that since Jesus taught the Shema in Mark 12;28-34

28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[a] 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’** 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[c] There is no commandment greater than these.”

32 “Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.

Baha’u’llah revealed a fundamental principle:

Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures. This is the true meaning of Divine unity. He Who is the Eternal Truth is the one Power Who exerciseth undisputed sovereignty over the world of being, Whose image is reflected in the mirror of the entire creation. All existence is dependent upon Him, and from Him is derived the source of the sustenance of all things. This is what is meant by Divine unity; this is its fundamental principle.

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh
Author: Bahá’u’lláh Source: US Bahá’í Publishing Trust, 1990 pocket-size edition Pages: 346
…

Can’t disagree with what you wrote:

“A Manifestation of God gives humans everything they will require for worship. All the tributes of God are found in His Temple, and they can be meditated upon and conceptualised.”**