Baha'i: Jesus Claims to be God (and how do you respond to those claims?)

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Israelites did plenty of idol worship before Moses revealed His most important Commandment.

Polytheism was also rife.

One God needs to be established before the concept of a Manifestation of God can be introduced.

The Arabian tribes went through the same spiritual pathway.
Polytheistic idol worship, then Muhammad established one God, then Bahaullah established the Manifestation of God.

This is termed Progressive Revelation 🙂

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So Polytheism is false to you?
 
Of course…

But if it means I am contentious with others and bring forth strife, then I am false…

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How can you who say that at one time Jesus was God almighty and then when Muhammad came Jesus ceased being God almighty say that polytheism is false exactly? Reality is a malleable thing to you. You can no more say that Polytheism is false than you can say your religion is correct.

Thus you really can’t oppose Christianity for calling Jesus God and your prophet a liar and false prophet. Live and let live. Truth is dependant on our subjective views and God makes whatever we want true. Is this not true for the pagan, for you and for Christians?
 
How can you who say that at one time Jesus was God almighty and then when Muhammad came Jesus ceased being God almighty say that polytheism is false exactly? Reality is a malleable thing to you. You can no more say that Polytheism is false than you can say your religion is correct.

Thus you really can’t oppose Christianity for calling Jesus God and your prophet a liar and false prophet. Live and let live. Truth is dependant on our subjective views and God makes whatever we want true. Is this not true for the pagan, for you and for Christians?
Firstly I can say that Baha’is believe that Jesus was never God.

Muhammad was addressing a much more spiritually immature population than Jesus.

Reality is different for different populations. An all-wise God will cater a Revelation towards spiritually advancing a population in preparation for the next Revelation. He did that with Moses and Jesus. He also did that with Muhammad and Baha’u’llah

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Firstly I can say that Baha’is believe that Jesus was never God.

Muhammad was addressing a much more spiritually immature population than Jesus.

Reality is different for different populations. An all-wise God will cater a Revelation towards spiritually advancing a population in preparation for the next Revelation. He did that with Moses and Jesus. He also did that with Muhammad and Baha’u’llah

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Not what you said in our last conversation (in fact when I asked you clearly if Jesus ceased being God you answered in the affirmative). Now who are you to say the pagans of Arabia were spiritually immature? You are insulting arab pagnaism and demeaning the people of those times whose religion is no more true than your own. They believed in their Gods. You believe in your God. Again, do you say truth is dependant on the external reality of things or dependant on the view of the beholder?

Every conversation with you thus far has indicated the latter rather than the former. Whose to say Joseph Smith was not more spiritually mature than your own prophet Hmm? That being said, I maintain the fathers of the church were more spiritually aware than the whole of the Quran put together. How does one measure and judge spiritual maturity when each manifestation contradicts one another?

For instance you would say Polygamy is spiritually backward while mongamy is spiritual forward. Yet apparently the world reverted during Muhammad’s dispensation. You would say Unitarianism is more spiritually mature than trinitarianism, yet the world reverted during Jesus’ dispensation. During Christianity celibacy was exalted as the higher state yet during islam and your religion celibacy is more or less looked down upon.

The same can be said of the words of Jesus, which indicate he is God. He was God at one time, to you, but he ceased being God when Muhammad came. Spiritual trajectory right?
 
Not what you said in our last conversation (in fact when I asked you clearly if Jesus ceased being God you answered in the affirmative). Now who are you to say the pagans of Arabia were spiritually immature? You are insulting arab pagnaism and demeaning the people of those times whose religion is no more true than your own. They believed in their Gods. You believe in your God. Again, do you say truth is dependant on the external reality of things or dependant on the view of the beholder?

Every conversation with you thus far has indicated the latter rather than the former. Whose to say Joseph Smith was not more spiritually mature than your own prophet Hmm? That being said, I maintain the fathers of the church were more spiritually aware than the whole of the Quran put together. How does one measure and judge spiritual maturity when each manifestation contradicts one another?

For instance you would say Polygamy is spiritually backward while mongamy is spiritual forward. Yet apparently the world reverted during Muhammad’s dispensation. You would say Unitarianism is more spiritually mature than trinitarianism, yet the world reverted during Jesus’ dispensation. During Christianity celibacy was exalted as the higher state yet during islam and your religion celibacy is more or less looked down upon.

The same can be said of the words of Jesus, which indicate he is God. He was God at one time, to you, but he ceased being God when Muhammad came. Spiritual trajectory right?
You are severely derailing this thread Ignatian.

Please start a new one on these matters.

I believe a lot of your Catholic brothers and sisters are getting frustrated with Baha’i threads getting derailed constantly and you are party to that here 🙂

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Ignatian wrote:

*For instance you would say Polygamy is spiritually backward while mongamy is spiritual forward. Yet apparently the world reverted during Muhammad’s dispensation. You would say Unitarianism is more spiritually mature than trinitarianism, yet the world reverted during Jesus’ dispensation. During Christianity celibacy was exalted as the higher state yet during islam and your religion celibacy is more or less looked down upon.

The same can be said of the words of Jesus, which indicate he is God. He was God at one time, to you, but he ceased being God when Muhammad came. Spiritual trajectory right?*

Consider that Levirite marriage was the law and practised at the time of Jesus… Is there any evidence Jesus abrogated it…?

Roman law seems to endorse monagamy… but women were also exploited and concubines were not uncommon among the Emperors…

Well there is a question whether the Qur’an truly endorsed polygamy…

It’s stated in such a way that there is a basic stipulation that requires treating people equally and the question arises can anyone truly treat one person equally to another… for most this would be extremely difficult.

Here’s the Qur’anic verse…from surat An Nisa 4:3

“…But if you fear that you will not be just, then [marry only] one or those your right hand possesses. That is more suitable that you may not incline [to injustice].”

Monogamy is the sole form of marriage allowed among Baha’is.

There are no Baha’i ascetics or monastics…no monastic orders.

After Jesus ascended His station continues… The return of Christ … or the return of the Christ spirit is in the next Manifestation.

There is a recognition among us Baha’is that the Manifestation is a return of the previous One…and that they are one…

** We believe in that which Jesus Christ and all the Prophets have believed. For example, the Báb states, “I am the return of all the Prophets.” This is significant of the oneness of the prophetic virtues, the oneness of power, the oneness of bestowal, the oneness of radiation, the oneness of expression, the oneness of revelation.**

reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/PUP/pup-60.html.utf8?query=oneness|prophets&action=highlight#pg168

:😉
 
Yet no argument has come forward as to why this is beyond Gods capacity of will. Further it was established at the first ecumenical council against the Arians the Son was of the same essence (homoousios) as the Father and is from that essence of the Father.
So you are saying that the Essence of God was Incarnated in the Temple of Jesus. And you are also saying that Jesus is knowable. This means that the Essence of God is knowable.

This contradicts a de fide teaching of Catholicism.

🤷

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So you are saying that the Essence of God was Incarnated in the Temple of Jesus. .
Absolutely of which you say God can’t do this but can’t seem to come up with a reason of why?
And you are also saying that Jesus is knowable…
Thats what I’m saying, which I hope you didn’t confuse this with His nature which is the 4th Council and you should read it.
This means that the Essence of God is knowable.
Thats what I said and “scripture” said and that is De-fide Splitting hairs over infinite eternal isn’t necessary.The blessed in Heaven posses an immediate intuitive “knowledge of the Divine Essence”. However, as said God’s Essence is also incomprehensible to the extent just mentioned.

As to this…
This contradicts a de fide teaching of Catholicism.
Seems thats the entire role of Baha’i, you presume to know what the BIble and Church teaches better than those who gave it to the world. Course that goes for Islam the Jews and everyone else in Baha’s regard. Suffice to say in the process of this thread I counted about 6 ancient heresies, but hey why stop now. 🙂 When did the “Christians” lose the TRUTH in your infallible estimation?
 
Absolutely of which you say God can’t do this but can’t seem to come up with a reason of why?

Thats what I’m saying, which I hope you didn’t confuse this with His nature which is the 4th Council and you should read it.

Thats what I said and “scripture” said and that is De-fide Splitting hairs over infinite eternal isn’t necessary.The blessed in Heaven posses an immediate intuitive “knowledge of the Divine Essence”. However, as said God’s Essence is also incomprehensible to the extent just mentioned.
Whats the difference between “comprehension” and “knowledge of something”?

Then please share what you think is the difference between “knowing something” and “having knowledge of something”…

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Whats the difference between “comprehension” and “knowledge of something”?

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No problem I’ll elaborate in depth and right after you do on why God cannot do what He wills and become incarnate? The silence of that response to the repeated question is unsettling for my soul.
 
Hello PeaceBeWithU, I will try to address your concerns below 🙂
It is troublesome when a person considers Truth to be relative. Realitydoes not change from one day to the next. God does not change from one day to the next, nor does the message that Christ taught. Truth is not relative. Truth is reality.
Truth is not relative. Reality is reality. We cannot change that. But what is relative is** how we learn about reality**, how it is taught to us, whether it is scientific education in a school or spiritual education in a religion. The means by which we have evolved physically and spiritually is empirically observable, and that is solely due to the “gradual” educational methods employed by God.
Exactly, and reality does not change. The earth was never flat. The reality is that the world was always the shape it is now. The fact that people didn’t know it back then does not change the fact that it was. Therefore Truth is not relative. Truth remains Truth, despite the opinions of people.
Yes, you are correct, but again, as humans we are not able to know ALL TRUTH from the moment we are born. Humanity is no different. It is the reason why Moses and all the Old Testament Prophets came to earth. God, the Father of all nurtures His children in a loving and wise manner. Baha’is consider humanity currently to be in its adolescence, approaching maturity. The guidance for the maturation of the human race has now been given to mankind through Baha’u’llah’s Revelation.
Again, Truth is not relative to human understanding. The world never was flat. The reality of the shape of the earth never changed. Human ignorance of the truth didn’t make the truth any less of a reality. We didn’t create an ‘advanced truth’ we simply gained a greater understanding of a truth that was there the entire time. The earth did not change. The truth did not change.
All we have dear friend, is OUR reality. Tomorrow a new reality becomes open to us. It is called the living Word of God because every day, as a new reality beckons we are born again into a new understanding of the Word.

I’ve taken the liberty to highlight from your post what I have been trying to convey to you the entire time.

The other thing you need to be aware of is that some Truths do change from Revelation to Revelation, such as circumcision, divorce laws, etc etc. Why do you think that is?
As far as the triune God, it is the same as the above. Realizing an error and then correcting it does not mean that the truth changed, it simply means you realized a truth that was there the entire time.
So you are basically saying that the Rabbinic Order misinterpreted the Torah for all that time?? 😃

If that is what you are saying then how do you know Christian interpretation is true?
God wouldn’t give us contradictory truths. That’s what I was saying. You cannot say in the same breath that Christ is One with God, and then at the same time say that Christ is something lesser than God, equal to Moses, Buddah etc. No matter what ‘perspective’ you look through there is a contradiction there because TRUTH does not hinge on perspective. It is a reality, whether a million people believe it or not. The world was round even when we thought it flat. Reality didn’t change. Christ is God, despite the opinions of a multitude of people. The reality doesn’t change. People’s ACCEPTANCE of reality is the only thing that changes.
So we establish that God does not reveal contradictory Truths (except sometimes such as you should be circumcised, you should not be circumcised. The Law is life (Torah), the Law is a ministry of death (2Cor 3:7) ), yet we also establish that from the perspective of a Rabbi, Christianity contradicts Judaism. So where do we turn to?

Why does the Truth keep changing?
Beating head against a wall Truth does not have a perspective. It simply is. Our fallibility as human beings doesn’t affect the truth one single iota. Reality doesn’t hinge on our understanding, and thank God for that!
Dear friend, please don’t be frustrated. I am simply presenting a perspective for you to consider. I have studied your perspective for years, and I can categorically say that I have both perspectives (the Baha’i one and the Christian one) thoroughly researched using intellect, prayer and meditation, and application to my life. The conclusions I have made are what I am writing here 🙂

I urge you to open your horizons 🙂
I’m trying to wrap my head around this statement. What you are saying is that, yes, indeed Moses had the same divinity as Jesus, which means Moses was ‘one with God’ but he chose to NOT reveal that fact because the people of his time wouldn’t understand that?
Not because they could not understand necessarily, although that may be the case, but its because God chose, in His infinite wisdom not to reveal it.

(cont. below)

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I gotta say ‘hogwash’.
LOL…okay…
For starters, although it isn’t true, it isn’t a hard concept to grasp. The Israelites of that time were subjects of the Egyptians, who worshipped their Pharoh as a god/king. The idea of a god in mortal form wouldn’t have been a foreign concept, and even if it was, it still isn’t tough to understand. There would be no conceivable reason whatsoever to keep that information a secret. Further, Moses was a human being with human parents- unlike Jesus, who was conceived of the Holy Spirit and conceived by the Virgin Mary. Moses was very mortal. He as also a sinner (murdered a fellow) which Jesus was not. To top it all off, he was scared of the burning bush and didn’t want to carry the message which God put before him. He even had to ask ‘what should I tell them your name is?’ because he didn’t know which god he was talking to!
Do you see the need for a polytheistic and idol worshiping society to first grasp the concept of One God, and only one God to be worshiped or not?

If your child had forgotten all about you because she is so occupied with loving her 30 Barbie dolls, do you show her how to love you again by introducing another Barbie doll that looks like you? Moses didn’t think that would work either…
You re-focus the attention of the child to you as the Loving Father.
Commandment number One:
  • You shall have no other gods before me.
So, unless you re-write the scriptures to fit this idea I think there is plenty of evidence to say that Moses was not divine, but was a very human prophet of God.
Yes, there is no doubt He was all human. But His Divine side was less visible than Jesus’ Divine side. There was a wisdom in this 🙂

The other perspective we need to consider is, how much do we “really” know about Moses and His life…
We must be thinking of two completely different religions. Judaism is very much concerned with God, mortal sin, and the state of a person’s soul on earth. Heaven, Hell, human righteousness, prophesy, sin, and acting in accord with God’s will are very present.
Maybe, but it is certainly less than in Christianity.
This makes no sense. God says again and again “I am your only God. Have no other Gods but me”. The people of Israel got in a lot of hot water by falling away from their faith to chase after other religions, worshipping idols, living sinful lives. Christ didn’t come so that we could worship his human body. He came to save us from our sins and unite us with God once again.
Please dear friend, lets not put words into my mouth 🙂

No one worships a human body. We worship the “Life-Giving Spirit”, as Peter put it…

🙂

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No problem I’ll elaborate in depth and right after you do on why God cannot do what He wills and become incarnate? The silence of that response to the repeated question is unsettling for my soul.
The moment you start using the argument “God do as He wills”, one can argue God is an alien, God is a flying spaghetti monster, and all sorts of vain imaginations.

God has been clearly identified as infinite from the beginning of religious history.
The moment you say that “God can do as He wills” you are causing an unchanging God to change, meaning an infinite God changes into a finite God incarnated into a human Temple.

Reason dictates this as unreasonable, and that is why I don’t put God into a box which I have concluded for myself that He should fit in and then argue till I go blue in the face that “God can do as He wills”

🤷

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Servant do you follow the ten commandments? Another question asked and not answered but you insist other should follow them here so you are helping teach them? Odd and rings true to what I stated above. It must be wonderful for the ego to assume supreme intelligence. Another old argument with gnosis and addressed. You guys must have another congregation of spiritual intellects.
 
You are severely derailing this thread Ignatian.

Please start a new one on these matters.

I believe a lot of your Catholic brothers and sisters are getting frustrated with Baha’i threads getting derailed constantly and you are party to that here 🙂

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Since I haven’t derailed it I will not cease. You object to Jesus being called God, except when you think it necessary to call him God without making a clarefraction on what you mean is what I have been ultimately adressing. You previously said Jesus was at one point God. Now how do you deny our doctrine being true during the time when Christianity was the hip new religion on the block? The quran affrims trinitarian the true Christians since the nicene were victorious so at least accept that during 3 BC till when Muhammad was born Christianity was correct.

It makes no sense to argue scripture with you since you will simply interpret it to your liking. Well I will simply say this. That at one point your God found our definitions acceptable so why reject them? We have claim to God as equally as you right? I mean it’s not like us worshipping Jesus as God impairs our relationship with God right?
 
The moment you start using the argument “God do as He wills”, one can argue God is an alien, God is a flying spaghetti monster, and all sorts of vain imaginations.
No idea what your saying and I doubt you’ll want to elaborate on it so suffice to say you wasted your time typing it.
God has been clearly identified as infinite from the beginning of religious history.
The moment you say that “God can do as He wills” you are causing an unchanging God to change, meaning an infinite God changes into a finite God incarnated into a human Temple…
Assuming you can read my mind correctly. :rolleyes:
Reason dictates this as unreasonable, and that is why I don’t put God into a box which I have concluded for myself that He should fit in and then argue till I go blue in the face that “God can do as He wills”
You offer no reason to make a long story short and the one your infallible leader suggested was torn up by Thomas Aquinas and the crickets are still chirping. Your left wit spiritual pride.

Hey you came loaded for bear today. No smile or I love you today? Jesus loves you Servant and so do I 😉
 
Servant do you follow the ten commandments? Another question asked and not answered but you insist other should follow them here so you are helping teach them? Odd and rings true to what I stated above. It must be wonderful for the ego to assume supreme intelligence. Another old argument with gnosis and addressed. You guys must have another congregation of spiritual intellects.
When did I insist everyone should follow the 10 Commandments?

But, no, I do not follow the 10 Commandments. I follow the Revelation of Baha’u’llah.

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No idea what your saying and I doubt you’ll want to elaborate on it so suffice to say you wasted your time typing it.

Assuming you can read my mind correctly. :rolleyes:

You offer no reason to make a long story short and the one your infallible leader suggested was torn up by Thomas Aquinas and the crickets are still chirping. Your left wit spiritual pride.

Hey you came loaded for bear today. No smile or I love you today? Jesus love you Servant and so do I 😉
My apologies I failed in conveying my thoughts to you 🙂

God bless you, and I love you too Gary 🙂

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When did I insist everyone should follow the 10 Commandments?

But, no, I do not follow the 10 Commandments. I follow the Revelation of Baha’u’llah.

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OOoooh the word shift and emphasis. Probably what happened when Mohammed was lost on the Trinity. Right above. DO YOU FOLLOW THE TEN COMMANDMENTS. Not shouting just “emphasis”. 😉
 
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