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IgnatianPhilo
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So we should call him the Glory of God even though I think personally he was not the Glory of God?
Baha'i: Jesus Claims to be God (and how do you respond to those claims?)
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Nick44
Guest
Do as you wish. He is know to His followers and to history as Baha’u’llah. Whether you believe or not should have no bearing on that.
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
Mr Nuri it is then.
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Nick44
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FYI, His given name was Mirza (English equivalent of Mr,) Husayn-Ali-Nuri The ‘Nuri’ attached at the end simply identifies Him as coming from the Persian province of Nur. Using ‘Mr. Nuri’ would be the same as you referring to Bill Smith from Chicago as ‘Mr. Chicago’. Not at all classy, imo.
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Randy_Carson
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Muhammad was his name, so that is what I call him. I do not refer to him as “the prophet” because I do not accept him as such.
Mr. Nuri gave himself the exalted title by which YOU know him, but I do not exalt him.
Similarly, I would not expect a Muslim or you to refer to the Pope as the Holy Father. You might call him choose to call him “Pope Francis” or just “Francis”. I will take no offense if you do not use a title that implies something with which you do not currently agree.
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Randy_Carson
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Oh. Okay. Then don’t force us to honor someone that we do not deem worthy of honor by using a name given to him by Siyyid `Alí Muḥammad Shírází - someone else we do not honor.
Calling us out in public for that is using a type of force to get us to comply.
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Nick44
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No, again, that is not correct. The title Baha’u’llah was given to Him by the Bab, He did not bestow it on Himself.
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IgnatianPhilo
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Should I call him Ali then? Like Ali Ababwa? Do you really expect us to call him to Glory of God? Why are you so offended at us calling him by his name, any of the four parts of it?
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Nick44
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I simply pointed out the common courtesy of referring to Baha’u’llah as He is commonly know, your personal beliefs, notwithstanding. And no, I expect nothing.
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Randy_Carson
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I was quoting an Orthodox priest the other day, and I said, “According to Schmemann and Ware, blah, blah, blah”
Of course, someone took issue with that I said that it should be “Fr. Schmemman and Metropolitan Ware”.
So, there is that. Still I think it’s not quite the same as expecting a Baptist to address the the Bishop of Rome as “Your Holiness”, do you?
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Randy_Carson
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Speaking of low expectations,
I know you are busy typing out all these responses to a lot of Catholics, but really, you ought to consider the posts I referenced a moment ago.
These were given in direct refutation of Baha’i assertions that Jesus never claimed to be God and that Paul never taught that Jesus was God.
Both of these assertions are false and the evidence is unassailable.
That means, Nick, that Baha’ism is built upon false assumptions. Plain and simple.
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Nick44
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There are stories (one from Chicago in 1954) of Christians gathering together to attempt to resolve theological disputes and bring about more unity in the Christian fold. What happened? They left even more divided as those who thought they were in agreement found out they weren’t.
We are never in disagreement about what the scriptures SAY, we do have a different understanding as to what they MEAN.
Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah has untied all the gordian knots re: theology from previous religions.
‘Proof’ is in the heart and soul of the believer. What we know pales next to what we don’t know. You have the teachings of the RCC to give you guidance, I have the Baha’i Writings. On main points we are in agreement; we both love God and both love Jesus Christ.
On your specific question “Is Jesus God”, I believe you have been given ample examples of what Baha’u’llah teaches on that question, and if not, more info is only a Google away. Before becoming a Baha’i (I was Catholic) I went round and round trying to make sense out of many things that appeared to me as illogical. The Baha’i Faith has resolved those conflicts (for me).
God Bless.
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Randy_Carson
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Aside from your misunderstanding concerning “deliver us from evil” which I addressed elsewhere, would you mind sharing a couple of the knots that Catholicism could not untangle for you?There are stories (one from Chicago in 1954) of Christians gathering together to attempt to resolve theological disputes and bring about more unity in the Christian fold. What happened? They left even more divided as those who thought they were in agreement found out they weren’t.
We are never in disagreement about what the scriptures SAY, we do have a different understanding as to what they MEAN.
Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah has untied all the gordian knots re: theology from previous religions.
‘Proof’ is in the heart and soul of the believer. What we know pales next to what we don’t know. You have the teachings of the RCC to give you guidance, I have the Baha’i Writings. On main points we are in agreement; we both love God and both love Jesus Christ.
On your specific question “Is Jesus God”, I believe you have been given ample examples of what Baha’u’llah teaches on that question, and if not, more info is only a Google away. Before becoming a Baha’i (I was Catholic) I went round and round trying to make sense out of many things that appeared to me as illogical. The Baha’i Faith has resolved those conflicts (for me).
God Bless.
Thanks.
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Nick44
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Randy, please give me some time on that and I will consider it. What I don’t want to do is to say something that might casually appear to be an anti-Catholic polemic, as I respect your beliefs. (remember, I once held them, too)
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Randy_Carson
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Fair enough, Nick, but don’t overthink this.
This is an apologetics forum, after all, and we’re pretty used to getting hammered from all sides. But we’re used to it, and it’s actually why we’re here…to explain and defend the Catholic faith.
So, take your best shots and don’t hold back. I promise that we won’t when we reply.Nothing would make me happier than for you to say, “Damn, I wish I’d known that…”.
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eddie_too
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randy,
considering the time nick is taking to provide examples, they should be pretty good and well thought out, I imagine.
considering the time nick is taking to provide examples, they should be pretty good and well thought out, I imagine.
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Randy_Carson
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I hope so. I want his best, so that I can help him see why he needs to come home.randy,
considering the time nick is taking to provide examples, they should be pretty good and well thought out, I imagine.
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Servant19
Guest
Come home to disrespecting other peoples lives and insulting others’ beliefs all in the name of a Truth which only YOU say is true.
There is no “Damn I wish I’d known that…”
The evidence is all here. The Holy Spirit that works through you seems to be disrespectful and insulting of others…
I don’t expect to hear from Nick on this matter.
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Randy_Carson
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Why? Did someone higher up in your organization get to him and forbid him to participate in this forum???
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Nick44
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OK, I’ve thought about it… here goes.
For the record, I was born and baptized RC, altar boy w/4 yrs attendance at daily Mass, Confirmed, attended a RC seminary for one year, then left religion completely for a time…still believed in God but wasn’t at all spiritually fulfilled in the RCC. All the questions I ever asked of priests were answered with variations of “have faith”. That didn’t cut it for me, so I stopped attending and claimed no religion at all for a number of years, nor was I actively seeking any replacement.
Forty-one years ago I was introduced to the Baha’i Faith by a coworker. Initially I wasn’t much interested, but I was intrigued enough to ask some questions that I’d never received satisfactory answers to. I was confident I would find some holes in this religion pretty quickly, and then I’d offer a polite “no thanks, not interested”. It didn’t exactly happen like I thought it would. The answers given not only made rational sense to me, further, while not avoiding discussing some miraculous events in the Faith, they were never offered as a ‘proof’ of its truth. After countless questions and answers, and much reading and soul-searching, I was assured in my being that Baha’u’llah was the Manifestation of God for this age, that His words were God’s words, and His instructions and laws were God’s Will…so, I declared my belief and became a Baha’i. That confirmation has only deepend over time.
My problems with RC theology (and the present day Christian understanding, in general) revolve around their belief that the ‘miracles’ depicted in the Bible were a ‘proof’ of the uniqueness of Jesus Christ. The symbols of ritual seemed more important than what they represented and what they were really teaching. Being expected to believe that the events depicted in Matthew 24, for example, were literally going to happen was a show-stopper for me. A literal, eternal burning hell, where most of those not in the ‘one true church’ were destined to end up. Limbo (I know, it’s now discarded but it wasn’t when I was a member) Purgatory (same flames-shorter duration (really?)) Literal trinity. One God, one truth, given at only one time in history meaning that every other faith tradition was way wide of the mark, and their followers in deep trouble. A literal Adam and Eve. Literal Tower of Babel. A physical resurrection with reanimated human corpses flying out of graves into the air, etc.
I could go on, but I think that’s sufficient. I find the Baha’i explanations most satisfying, in that they do not demand that I suspend my rational mind to try and believe things that I know are not possible. Being able to understand the spiritual meaning behind the outward events and symbols, along with the Holy Writings of the Faith, are satisfying spiritually and rationally to me.
I should let you know that a RC chapter and verse rebuttal using scripture or Church authority, along the lines of…“but this is what is says” won’t be too helpful…I already know what it says—I’ve read it and studied it, too—many, many, many times. I know what it says—I wanted to know what it means. I’m wasn’t willing to be a religious parrot, spitting-out canned CCD truths that made little sense to me. I applaud the moral teachings of the RCC, I mainly have problems with the eschatology. I have a God-given rational mind that needs reason, logic, spirituality and that most important ‘X’ factor that is not earned, is not even quantifiable, but is a gift from God.
Let me be absolutely clear that I have zero animus toward Catholics or the RCC. Don’t mean it to sound patronizing, but some of my best friends are Catholics.
These words of Abdu’l-Baha I agree with 100%:
“If religious beliefs and opinions are found contrary to the standards of science, they are mere superstitions and imaginations; for the antithesis of knowledge is ignorance, and the child of ignorance is superstition. Unquestionably there must be agreement between true religion and science. If a question be found contrary to reason, faith and belief in it are impossible, and there is no outcome but wavering and vacillation.”
“There are certain pillars which have been established as the unshakeable supports of the Faith of God. The mightiest of these is learning and the use of the mind, the expansion of consciousness, and insight into the realities of the universe and the hidden mysteries of Almighty God. To promote knowledge is thus an inescapable duty imposed on every one of the friends of God.”
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