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Techno2000
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Its contrary to the standards of science that there should be any such thing as a “Manifestation of God” so Abdu’l-Baha shot his own self in the foot with that Statement.
Baha'i: Jesus Claims to be God (and how do you respond to those claims?)
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Nick-OK, I’ve thought about it… here goes.
For the record, I was born and baptized RC, altar boy w/4 yrs attendance at daily Mass, Confirmed, attended a RC seminary for one year, then left religion completely for a time…still believed in God but wasn’t at all spiritually fulfilled in the RCC. All the questions I ever asked of priests were answered with variations of “have faith”. That didn’t cut it for me, so I stopped attending and claimed no religion at all for a number of years, nor was I actively seeking any replacement.
Forty-one years ago I was introduced to the Baha’i Faith by a coworker. Initially I wasn’t much interested, but I was intrigued enough to ask some questions that I’d never received satisfactory answers to. I was confident I would find some holes in this religion pretty quickly, and then I’d offer a polite “no thanks, not interested”. It didn’t exactly happen like I thought it would. The answers given not only made rational sense to me, further, while not avoiding discussing some miraculous events in the Faith, they were never offered as a ‘proof’ of its truth. After countless questions and answers, and much reading and soul-searching, I was assured in my being that Baha’u’llah was the Manifestation of God for this age, that His words were God’s words, and His instructions and laws were God’s Will…so, I declared my belief and became a Baha’i. That confirmation has only deepend over time.
My problems with RC theology (and the present day Christian understanding, in general) revolve around their belief that the ‘miracles’ depicted in the Bible were a ‘proof’ of the uniqueness of Jesus Christ. The symbols of ritual seemed more important than what they represented and what they were really teaching. Being expected to believe that the events depicted in Matthew 24, for example, were literally going to happen was a show-stopper for me. A literal, eternal burning hell, where most of those not in the ‘one true church’ were destined to end up. Limbo (I know, it’s now discarded but it wasn’t when I was a member) Purgatory (same flames-shorter duration (really?)) Literal trinity. One God, one truth, given at only one time in history meaning that every other faith tradition was way wide of the mark, and their followers in deep trouble. A literal Adam and Eve. Literal Tower of Babel. A physical resurrection with reanimated human corpses flying out of graves into the air, etc.
I could go on, but I think that’s sufficient. I find the Baha’i explanations most satisfying, in that they do not demand that I suspend my rational mind to try and believe things that I know are not possible. Being able to understand the spiritual meaning behind the outward events and symbols, along with the Holy Writings of the Faith, are satisfying spiritually and rationally to me.
I should let you know that a RC chapter and verse rebuttal using scripture or Church authority, along the lines of…“but this is what is says” won’t be too helpful…I already know what it says—I’ve read it and studied it, too—many, many, many times. I know what it says—I wanted to know what it means. I’m wasn’t willing to be a religious parrot, spitting-out canned CCD truths that made little sense to me. I applaud the moral teachings of the RCC, I mainly have problems with the eschatology. I have a God-given rational mind that needs reason, logic, spirituality and that most important ‘X’ factor that is not earned, is not even quantifiable, but is a gift from God.
Let me be absolutely clear that I have zero animus toward Catholics or the RCC. Don’t mean it to sound patronizing, but some of my best friends are Catholics.
These words of Abdu’l-Baha I agree with 100%:
“If religious beliefs and opinions are found contrary to the standards of science, they are mere superstitions and imaginations; for the antithesis of knowledge is ignorance, and the child of ignorance is superstition. Unquestionably there must be agreement between true religion and science. If a question be found contrary to reason, faith and belief in it are impossible, and there is no outcome but wavering and vacillation.”
“There are certain pillars which have been established as the unshakeable supports of the Faith of God. The mightiest of these is learning and the use of the mind, the expansion of consciousness, and insight into the realities of the universe and the hidden mysteries of Almighty God. To promote knowledge is thus an inescapable duty imposed on every one of the friends of God.”
I really appreciate your honesty and candid admission of your struggles. You have certainly wrestled with some of the big questions!
You’ve been thinking about these things for 41+ years…may I have a bit of time to formulate my response?
God bless.
Randy
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Nick44
Guest
Absolutely, take as much time as you need.
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Tomdstone
Guest
What does it mean to say that " Baha’u’llah was the Manifestation of God for this age," and who are Mr. Baha’u’llah and Mr. Abdu’l-Baha?OK, I’ve thought about it… here goes.
For the record, I was born and baptized RC, altar boy w/4 yrs attendance at daily Mass, Confirmed, attended a RC seminary for one year, then left religion completely for a time…still believed in God but wasn’t at all spiritually fulfilled in the RCC. All the questions I ever asked of priests were answered with variations of “have faith”. That didn’t cut it for me, so I stopped attending and claimed no religion at all for a number of years, nor was I actively seeking any replacement.
Forty-one years ago I was introduced to the Baha’i Faith by a coworker. Initially I wasn’t much interested, but I was intrigued enough to ask some questions that I’d never received satisfactory answers to. I was confident I would find some holes in this religion pretty quickly, and then I’d offer a polite “no thanks, not interested”. It didn’t exactly happen like I thought it would. The answers given not only made rational sense to me, further, while not avoiding discussing some miraculous events in the Faith, they were never offered as a ‘proof’ of its truth. After countless questions and answers, and much reading and soul-searching, I was assured in my being that Baha’u’llah was the Manifestation of God for this age, that His words were God’s words, and His instructions and laws were God’s Will…so, I declared my belief and became a Baha’i. That confirmation has only deepend over time.
My problems with RC theology (and the present day Christian understanding, in general) revolve around their belief that the ‘miracles’ depicted in the Bible were a ‘proof’ of the uniqueness of Jesus Christ. The symbols of ritual seemed more important than what they represented and what they were really teaching. Being expected to believe that the events depicted in Matthew 24, for example, were literally going to happen was a show-stopper for me. A literal, eternal burning hell, where most of those not in the ‘one true church’ were destined to end up. Limbo (I know, it’s now discarded but it wasn’t when I was a member) Purgatory (same flames-shorter duration (really?)) Literal trinity. One God, one truth, given at only one time in history meaning that every other faith tradition was way wide of the mark, and their followers in deep trouble. A literal Adam and Eve. Literal Tower of Babel. A physical resurrection with reanimated human corpses flying out of graves into the air, etc.
I could go on, but I think that’s sufficient. I find the Baha’i explanations most satisfying, in that they do not demand that I suspend my rational mind to try and believe things that I know are not possible. Being able to understand the spiritual meaning behind the outward events and symbols, along with the Holy Writings of the Faith, are satisfying spiritually and rationally to me.
I should let you know that a RC chapter and verse rebuttal using scripture or Church authority, along the lines of…“but this is what is says” won’t be too helpful…I already know what it says—I’ve read it and studied it, too—many, many, many times. I know what it says—I wanted to know what it means. I’m wasn’t willing to be a religious parrot, spitting-out canned CCD truths that made little sense to me. I applaud the moral teachings of the RCC, I mainly have problems with the eschatology. I have a God-given rational mind that needs reason, logic, spirituality and that most important ‘X’ factor that is not earned, is not even quantifiable, but is a gift from God.
Let me be absolutely clear that I have zero animus toward Catholics or the RCC. Don’t mean it to sound patronizing, but some of my best friends are Catholics.
These words of Abdu’l-Baha I agree with 100%:
“If religious beliefs and opinions are found contrary to the standards of science, they are mere superstitions and imaginations; for the antithesis of knowledge is ignorance, and the child of ignorance is superstition. Unquestionably there must be agreement between true religion and science. If a question be found contrary to reason, faith and belief in it are impossible, and there is no outcome but wavering and vacillation.”
“There are certain pillars which have been established as the unshakeable supports of the Faith of God. The mightiest of these is learning and the use of the mind, the expansion of consciousness, and insight into the realities of the universe and the hidden mysteries of Almighty God. To promote knowledge is thus an inescapable duty imposed on every one of the friends of God.”
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Techno2000
Guest
Where have you been?
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Tomdstone
Guest
Do you know which post tells about them?Where have you been?
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GuyNextDoor
Guest
Frankly I would very much prefer to call their baha’u’llah (translated to Glory of God) as Husayn Ibn Ali. It is after all their “glory of god”, not ours. I don’t find that calling the guy by his name is offensive, same way as I do not think calling the buddha as Siddartha Gautama offensive.
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Techno2000
Guest
Well, thats the problem, we have been trying to find out for months, its best to start with wikipedia then come back here.
Baha’u’llah…
google.com/search?q=Baha%27u%27llah&oq=Baha%27u%27llah&aqs=chrome…69i57j69i61l3&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8
His Son… Abdu’l-Baha
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%60Abdu’l-Bah%C3%A1
Their Religion… Baha’i
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Faith
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Tomdstone
Guest
Thanks. I would like to know what “the Manifestation of God for this age” really means and entails.
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Techno2000
Guest
Mírzá Ḥusayn Channeled spirits that he interpreted as the voice of God speaking to him which made him " The Manifestation of God for this age" and because of this he also became “The Baha’u’llah” which means "The Glory of God ". After Baha’u’llah died his son Abdu’l-Baha became the official person to get the correct interpretations of the writing of his father Baha’u’llah.Abdu’l-Baha went on to start a religion call Baha’i, all this was done by God so that Mankind could better understand Him in this Modern age.
The writings of Baha’u’llah :
reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-32.html
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arthra
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Well let’s respond to this by stating that an allegation such as “channeling spirits” is far from anything in Baha’i Writings, history or practice…
His given name was Mirza Husayn Ali and His father Mirza Abbas Nouri, known as Mirza Bozorg,was a minister in the court of Fath Ali Shah and later Muhammad Shah … Born in Tihran in 1817 … his family was from the province of Nur near the Caspian Sea and Mazindaran.
Baha’u’llah derives from a title “Baha” meaning glory, splendour or light bestowed upon Him by the Bab (The Gate) at the Conference of Badasht in 1848 …this conference enunciated the principles of the movement began in 1844 or 1260 AH by the Bab.
Upon each He bestowed a new name. He Himself was henceforth designated by the name of Bahá; upon the Last Letter of the Living was conferred the appellation of Quddús, and to Qurratu’l-‘Ayn was given the title of Táhirih. To each of those who had convened at Badasht a special Tablet was subsequently revealed by the Báb, each of whom He addressed by the name recently conferred upon him.
Bahá is Arabic and means glory or splendour.
The oldest son of Baha’u’llah was Abdul-Baha… meaning servant of Baha. He was known as Abbas Effendi also the Master or Agha… The Will and Testament of Baha’u’llah…designated Abdul-Baha as the Interpreter of His Father’s Writings and Center of the Baha’i Cause…He was not a Manifestation of God… that designation belongs to the Bab and Baha’u’llah…sometimes called the Twin Manifestations …Baha’u’llah being the Manifestation of God for this day.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
About 20 threads or more over the past two years which are thinly-disguised promotional tours of the Baha’i faith.
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Techno2000
Guest
Servant19 :
Baha’u’llah did not sit around musing about what He could write next.
The majority of His Writings were not actually written by Him at all. Such was the rapidity of His Revelation that He would require up to 8 secretaries all at once to record the Word which was being revealed, often for hours and hours on end.
Bahá’í
Main articles:Bahá’í literatureand*Progressive revelation (Bahá’í)
‘Revelation writing’: The first draft of a tablet ofBahá’u’lláh
The Báb,Bahá’u’lláhand`Abdu’l-Baháreceived thousands of written enquiries, and wrote thousands of responses, hundreds of which amount to whole and proper books, while many are shorter texts, such as letters. In addition, the Bahá’í faith has large works which were divinely revealed in a very short time, as in a night, or a few days.[11]Additionally, because many of the works were first recorded by anamanuensis,[12]most were submitted for approval and correction and the final text was personally approved by the revelator.
Bahá’u’lláh would occasionally write the words of revelation down himself, but normally the revelation was dictated to his amanuensis, who sometimes recorded it in what has been called revelation writing, a shorthand script written with extreme speed owing to the rapidity of the utterance of the words. Afterwards, Bahá’u’lláh revised and approved these drafts. These revelation draftsand many other transcriptions of Bahá’u’lláh’s writings, around 15,000 items, some of which are in his own handwriting, are kept in theInternational Bahá’í ArchivesinHaifa,*Israel.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revelation
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Randy_Carson
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Siyyid `Alí Muḥammad Shírází was the founder of Bábism, and one of three central figures of the Bahá’í Faith.
Mírzá Ḥusayn-`Alí Núrí, who re-named himself “Baha’u’llah”, is the latest and greatest from the Baha’i.
One can only wonder when they will put forth another. :shrug
Wouldn’t it be a hoot to watch a Baha’i trying to convert a Rastafarian?
Rasta: “Noooo, mon. Haile Selassie is Jah.”
Baha’i: “He was not actually God. He was just a local manifestation in Jamaica and for a limited time only…”
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Techno2000
Guest
Automatic writing or psychography is an alleged psychic ability allowing a person to produce written words without consciously writing. The words are claimed to arise from a subconscious, spiritual or supernatural source.[1]
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_writing
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_writing
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Techno2000
Guest
Bahá’u’lláh would sometimes recite with such rapidity that His secretary could barely keep up with the flow of His words. Afterwards, the secretary would occasionally be unable to read his own handwriting and would ask Bahá’u’lláh to help decipher the words.
Photo 4 of 6: Leaf from the Epistle to the Son of the Wolf (Lawh-i-Ibn-i-Dhi’b), in the “Revelation” handwriting of Mirza Aqa Jan, the secretary of Bahá’u’lláh.
bahaullah.org/tablets/revelation-writing
Photo 4 of 6: Leaf from the Epistle to the Son of the Wolf (Lawh-i-Ibn-i-Dhi’b), in the “Revelation” handwriting of Mirza Aqa Jan, the secretary of Bahá’u’lláh.
bahaullah.org/tablets/revelation-writing
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Servant19
Guest
You don’t believe that Jesus was psychic?
He could read the minds of every person that crossed His path.
Besides, Baha’u’llah was not automatic writing. He wasn’t doing any writing at all. The photos of scribbly words that you see are from non-psychic secretaries trying to keep up with the Word of God being revealed.They were not automatic writing…
You are trying your best to defame Baha’u’llah because you have this “idea” in your head. Baha’u’llah WAS psychic, He read the minds and souls of everyone, just like Jesus:
Let this “idea” go and allow God to work through you Techno.
Maybe you can pray about it and see what answers God gives you. Trust in that
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Techno2000
Guest
How did these “Revelations” come to Baha’u’llah…Servant19 ?You don’t believe that Jesus was psychic?
He could read the minds of every person that crossed His path.
Besides, Baha’u’llah was not automatic writing. He wasn’t doing any writing at all. The photos of scribbly words that you see are from non-psychic secretaries trying to keep up with the Word of God being revealed.They were not automatic writing…
You are trying your best to defame Baha’u’llah because you have this “idea” in your head. Baha’u’llah WAS psychic, He read the minds and souls of everyone, just like Jesus:
Let this “idea” go and allow God to work through you Techno.
Maybe you can pray about it and see what answers God gives you. Trust in that
.
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Techno2000
Guest
No, I can’t let the idea that Baha’u’llah might have received his Revelations from a demon, because they have absolutely nothing to do with Catholicism.You don’t believe that Jesus was psychic?
He could read the minds of every person that crossed His path.
Besides, Baha’u’llah was not automatic writing. He wasn’t doing any writing at all. The photos of scribbly words that you see are from non-psychic secretaries trying to keep up with the Word of God being revealed.They were not automatic writing…
You are trying your best to defame Baha’u’llah because you have this “idea” in your head. Baha’u’llah WAS psychic, He read the minds and souls of everyone, just like Jesus:
Let this “idea” go and allow God to work through you Techno.
Maybe you can pray about it and see what answers God gives you. Trust in that
.
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eddie_too
Guest
hasayn ali does not need anyone else to defame him.
he totally defames himself by teaching people to believe teachnigs contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ.
it is this effect (contradicting the teachings of Jesus Christ) that hasayn ali has had on the world that is to be completely and irrevocably rejected. it is this very negative effect that most defames husayn ali.
the fact that the followers of husayn ali try to obfuscate the teachings of Jesus Christ aptly expresses and provides examples of the deceit (perhaps due to ignorance and not malice) they learned from husayn ali.
again, whether or not bahai act in good faith changes nothing about the essence of the errors and deceit found in their beliefs.
he totally defames himself by teaching people to believe teachnigs contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ.
it is this effect (contradicting the teachings of Jesus Christ) that hasayn ali has had on the world that is to be completely and irrevocably rejected. it is this very negative effect that most defames husayn ali.
the fact that the followers of husayn ali try to obfuscate the teachings of Jesus Christ aptly expresses and provides examples of the deceit (perhaps due to ignorance and not malice) they learned from husayn ali.
again, whether or not bahai act in good faith changes nothing about the essence of the errors and deceit found in their beliefs.
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