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Techno2000
Guest
Right, that is the Bad fruit that the Baha’i
religion produces.
Baha'i: Jesus Claims to be God (and how do you respond to those claims?)
- Status
religion produces.
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
The Divinity of Jesus Christ Proved from Scripture
I. Did Jesus claim to be God?
1. Jesus claimed the Divine Name (‘I AM’)
Exodus 3:14
13 Then Moses said to God, “If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?” 14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” 15 God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you’: this is my name for ever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.
John 8:58
53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you claim to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing; it is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say that he is your God. 55 But you have not known him; I know him. If I said, I do not know him, I should be a liar like you; but I do know him and I keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day; he saw it and was glad.” 57 The Jews then said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple.
Why did the Jews want to stone Jesus if they did not believe that He was claiming to be God?
2. Jesus claimed to be the Son of God and equal to God.
John 5:18
16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but** he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God**.
3. Jesus claimed to be the First and the Last – a Title Reserved for God Alone
Isaiah 44:6
Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me.”
Revelation 1:17-18
“Do not be afraid; I [Jesus] am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.”
Would a mere prophet claim to be the “First and the Last”?
4. Jesus claimed to be Truth – not just to proclaim the truth.
John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.
5. Jesus claimed to share in Divine Glory
In the Old Testament, we find that Yahweh will not share his glory with anyone.
Isaiah 42:8
“I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another.” (Cf. Isaiah 48:11—“My glory I will not give to another.”)
Yet Jesus claimed, not only that he would be glorified with the Father, but that he had glory with the Father before the world was created!
John 17:5
“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”
How can anyone see this as anything other than a claim to deity?
6. Jesus claimed to be the Messiah and the Son of God Before the Sanhedrin
Daniel 7:13-14
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
Daniel prophesied that the Son of Man would be worshiped as God.
Mark 14:61-65
61 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?” 62 “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” 63 The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. 64 “You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?” They all condemned him as worthy of death.
Replying to the High Priest at His trial before the Sanhedrin, Jesus quoted the Daniel and applied this prophecy to Himself.
I. Did Jesus claim to be God?
1. Jesus claimed the Divine Name (‘I AM’)
Exodus 3:14
13 Then Moses said to God, “If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?” 14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” 15 God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you’: this is my name for ever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.
John 8:58
53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you claim to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing; it is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say that he is your God. 55 But you have not known him; I know him. If I said, I do not know him, I should be a liar like you; but I do know him and I keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day; he saw it and was glad.” 57 The Jews then said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple.
Why did the Jews want to stone Jesus if they did not believe that He was claiming to be God?
2. Jesus claimed to be the Son of God and equal to God.
John 5:18
16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but** he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God**.
3. Jesus claimed to be the First and the Last – a Title Reserved for God Alone
Isaiah 44:6
Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me.”
Revelation 1:17-18
“Do not be afraid; I [Jesus] am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.”
Would a mere prophet claim to be the “First and the Last”?
4. Jesus claimed to be Truth – not just to proclaim the truth.
John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.
5. Jesus claimed to share in Divine Glory
In the Old Testament, we find that Yahweh will not share his glory with anyone.
Isaiah 42:8
“I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another.” (Cf. Isaiah 48:11—“My glory I will not give to another.”)
Yet Jesus claimed, not only that he would be glorified with the Father, but that he had glory with the Father before the world was created!
John 17:5
“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”
How can anyone see this as anything other than a claim to deity?
6. Jesus claimed to be the Messiah and the Son of God Before the Sanhedrin
Daniel 7:13-14
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
Daniel prophesied that the Son of Man would be worshiped as God.
Mark 14:61-65
61 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?” 62 “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” 63 The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. 64 “You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?” They all condemned him as worthy of death.
Replying to the High Priest at His trial before the Sanhedrin, Jesus quoted the Daniel and applied this prophecy to Himself.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
II. Did Jesus act as God might act?
Matthew 14:33
Matthew 28:9, 17
Luke 24:52
John 9:35-38
3.Jesus did not reject worship.
Revelation 19:10 – the angel tells John to worship God only; Jesus never tells anyone not to worship Him.
III. Did Jesus’ disciples believe He was God?
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs. 5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father”?
Or again,
“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son”?
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”
7 In speaking of the angels he says,
“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.”
8 But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
IV. Did Jesus’ enemies believe He claimed to be God?
John 10:30-33 – second attempted stoning
V. Did the demons recognize Him as God?
Mark 1:23-24
23 Just then a man in their synagogue who was possessed by an impure spirit cried out, 24 “What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God!”
- Jesus forgave sins – which only God can do.
- Jesus accepted worship.
Matthew 14:33
Matthew 28:9, 17
Luke 24:52
John 9:35-38
3.Jesus did not reject worship.
Revelation 19:10 – the angel tells John to worship God only; Jesus never tells anyone not to worship Him.
III. Did Jesus’ disciples believe He was God?
- Thomas worshipped Jesus
- John declared that Jesus is God.
- Paul taught that Jesus was God.
- The author of Hebrews clearly shows that the Son of God is God.
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs. 5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father”?
Or again,
“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son”?
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”
7 In speaking of the angels he says,
“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.”
8 But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
IV. Did Jesus’ enemies believe He claimed to be God?
- The Jews tried to stone him for blasphemy.
John 10:30-33 – second attempted stoning
- The Sanhedrin asked Jesus if He was the Messiah and the Son of God
V. Did the demons recognize Him as God?
Mark 1:23-24
23 Just then a man in their synagogue who was possessed by an impure spirit cried out, 24 “What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God!”
A
arthra
Guest
Ra ndy…
Thanks for sharing your views… I’m particularly fond of the following scripture…
Hebrews 1:1-9
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.
Thanks for sharing your views… I’m particularly fond of the following scripture…
Hebrews 1:1-9
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.
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Techno2000
Guest
What is your interpretation of this?Hebrews 1:1-9
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.
A
arthra
Guest
I agree Baha’i Faith is not Catholicism… and I doubt many Baha’is would say that it does… It’s an independent religion with it’s own Writings and practices… No priesthood… No monks… and no demons…
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Amen! Catholics love that verse…and those that follow almost immediately:
8 But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
So, the author of Hebrews is saying VERY CLEARLY that the Son of God is God.
So did Jesus Himself:
- Jesus claimed the Divine Name (‘I AM’)
- Jesus claimed to be the Son of God and equal to God.
- Jesus claimed to be the First and the Last – a Title Reserved for God Alone
- Jesus claimed to be Truth – not just to proclaim the truth.
- Jesus claimed to share in Divine Glory
- Jesus claimed to be the Messiah and the Son of God Before the Sanhedrin.
Was Jesus a legend, a lunatic, a liar or God?
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arthra
Guest
Radiance of God’s Glory
exact representation of His Being
the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Reality—that is to say, the Essence of Oneness, with its infinite perfections and attributes—became visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multiplied—for the Sun is one—but it appeared in the mirror. This is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son,” meaning that the Sun is visible and manifest in this mirror.
- Abdul-Baha “Some Answered Questions”
*But the proceeding through manifestation (if by this is meant the divine appearance, and not division into parts), we have said, is the proceeding and the appearance of the Holy Spirit and the Word, which is from God. As it is said in the Gospel of John, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God”; 1 then the Holy Spirit and the Word are the appearance of God. The Spirit and the Word mean the divine perfections that appeared in the Reality of Christ, and these perfections were with God; so the sun manifests all its glory in the mirror. For the Word does not signify the body of Christ, no, but the divine perfections manifested in Him.
For Christ was like a clear mirror which was facing the Sun of Reality; and the perfections of the Sun of Reality—that is to say, its light and heat—were visible and apparent in this mirror. If we look into the mirror, we see the sun, and we say, “It is the sun.” Therefore, the Word and the Holy Spirit, which signify the perfections of God, are the divine appearance. This is the meaning of the verse in the Gospel which says: “The Word was with God, and the Word was God”; for the divine perfections are not different from the Essence of Oneness. The perfections of Christ are called the Word because all the beings are in the condition of letters, and one letter has not a complete meaning, while the perfections of Christ have the power of the word because a complete meaning can be inferred from a word. As the Reality of Christ was the manifestation of the divine perfections, therefore, it was like the word. Why? Because He is the sum of perfect meanings. This is why He is called the Word.*
- Abdul-Baha “Some Answered Questions”
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
Was this the Apostle John’s understanding of his own words?
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Randy_Carson
Guest
If Jesus did not claim to be God, why did the Jesus attempt to stone him for blasphemy on two separate occasions?
Why did the Sanhedrin condemn him for blasphemy at his trial?
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Techno2000
Guest
Is this his explanation of the Trinity?
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Tomdstone
Guest
Jews do not accept Jesus as either Messiah or as divine.
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Tomdstone
Guest
Blasphemy includes things other than claiming to be God.
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Techno2000
Guest
The real reason Jesus can’t be God, is because God spoke to Bab and Baha’u’llah so that would mean that Jesus spoke to Bab and Baha’u’llah too. But we know that these words are not the words of Jesus, so that is why the Baha’i religion says Jesus is not God.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
True. But they knew beyond doubt that Jesus CLAIMED to be God.
Servant19 denied that He did, and I have proven him wrong.
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Servant19
Guest
You have proven that Jesus “implied” it? He never stated it.
There are of course other perspectives in which one could study all the “implied” revelations of Jesus about His Divinity, and that is that God is actually doing all the talking. None of the Words and none of the implications were His to make, they were all Gods.
Jesus was simply a perfect hollow reed channeling the Holy Spirit and revealing the Word of God.
So one could also conclude that none of the statements ever written as attributed and quoted from Jesus were ever about Himself, but actually God speaking THROUGH Him, which again, aligns with what Baha’u’llah taught about the nature of the Manifestation of God.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
That’s kind of a breezy, “no, not really” response, Servant.You have proven that Jesus “implied” it? He never stated it.
There are of course other perspectives in which one could study all the “implied” revelations of Jesus about His Divinity, and that is that God is actually doing all the talking. None of the Words and none of the implications were His to make, they were all Gods.
Jesus was simply a perfect hollow reed channeling the Holy Spirit and revealing the Word of God.
So one could also conclude that none of the statements ever written as attributed and quoted from Jesus were ever about Himself, but actually God speaking THROUGH Him, which again, aligns with what Baha’u’llah taught about the nature of the Manifestation of God.
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Maybe you can go verse by verse in responding to post #458, and I don’t give a hoot what Baha said. I want to see you attempt to prove from MY scriptures that Jesus, his disciples and His enemies understood that He claimed anything other than God.
You’re going to have to do some work, Servant. One or two verses will not suffice. I’m not sure you want to do that. From what I’ve seen, all you and your friends really do is cut and paste from your organization’s website.
That’s not good enough. I want to see you attempt some real exegesis of the words of Jesus as recorded in scripture. Analyze the Greek. Look at the Early Church Fathers if you need to. If you want to convert Catholics and Christians by the thousands - maybe millions - to the truth of your religion, then put in the effort to make a convincing argument. Catholics and other Christians have been doing this for 2,000 years in the face of all kinds of opposition. And the fruit is evident because Christianity is the biggest religion on the planet and has been for a very, very long time.
So, you think your guy is the latest and greatest? Then first, it should be worth some of your time to make a compelling case proving that Jesus wasn’t God.
Don’t just make an assertion. PROVE. YOUR. CLAIM.
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arthra
Guest
I feel the opening verses of Hebrews has much to tell us and some of this is theological… I’m no theologian of course but I feel as a Baha’i that it has the “ring” of truth…I’m just offering this humbly here to share…there is no official Baha’i stance on the verses other than what I cited above from Abdul-Baha.
Let’s look at the scripture
Hebrews 1:1-9
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.
…
Basically
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways
Baha’is can relate to this …to the succession of prophets… and we recognise this is the process God has used to reach humanity through succeeding prophets.
Now the later verse runs:
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.
The word radiance is ä-pau-'gäs-mä and means
reflected brightness
of Christ in that he perfectly reflects the majesty of God
effulgence
shining forth, of a light coming from a luminous body
Glory is “doxa” is “splendour, brightness” a word equivalent to “Baha” in Arabic.
“God’s glory” in the verse above does not have the word “God” in it…but it is implied.
The “word” in the above verse is “rhema” in Greek and refers to
that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word
any sound produced by the voice and having definite meaning
speech, discourse
what one has said
By His spoken word all things are sustained.
You can look up these words in your own lexicon and see what they are…
Let’s look at the scripture
Hebrews 1:1-9
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.
…
Basically
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways
Baha’is can relate to this …to the succession of prophets… and we recognise this is the process God has used to reach humanity through succeeding prophets.
- but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.*
Now the later verse runs:
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.
The word radiance is ä-pau-'gäs-mä and means
reflected brightness
of Christ in that he perfectly reflects the majesty of God
effulgence
shining forth, of a light coming from a luminous body
Glory is “doxa” is “splendour, brightness” a word equivalent to “Baha” in Arabic.
“God’s glory” in the verse above does not have the word “God” in it…but it is implied.
The “word” in the above verse is “rhema” in Greek and refers to
that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word
any sound produced by the voice and having definite meaning
speech, discourse
what one has said
By His spoken word all things are sustained.
You can look up these words in your own lexicon and see what they are…
S
Servant19
Guest
I guess I’m just a breezy kinda guy
There are so many perspectives that a Manifestation of God expresses Randy. They are the Perfect Embodiment of the divine active attributes of God in their Person, yet they are also the Mouthpiece of God.
What makes you think that Jesus was not simply a Mouthpiece through which God spoke through.
It’s really not a breezy statement.
“What I should say and what I should speak” is not a “breezy” statement. How do you know for sure that God is not the “Before Abraham was , I am” spoken of by Jesus?
Lastly, I do not need to prove Jesus is not God using the NT, just as you do not need to prove that Moses was not the greatest Prophet that ever lived using the OT. Can you?
Using just OT texts, can you prove that Moses was not the greatest Prophet that ever lived?
If you can’t then I suggest that you are implying that only with the coming of Jesus was Moses’ true inferiority to Jesus revealed. There is no difference here. I can only prove that what Christianity “claims” about Jesus is not necessarily totally clear cut, and if we are honest that is true (look at all the different Christian denominations all claiming different truths), and that only when Baha’u’llah came that the true nature of Jesus was revealed.
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- Status