Baha'i marrying a Christian

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My brother, a follower of the Baha’i faith, is getting married in April to a Christian woman. His fiancee’s minister won’t have anything to do with the wedding, and my brother is quite miffed about it, because “if they would do their reading,” her Christian church leaders would apparently have no cause to take issue. I told him that probably no Catholic priest would con-celebrate this non-Christian wedding, either, but he’s adamant that any priest “who does his reading” would be able to move forward and embrace the celebration. My brother’s apologetics for his faith usually resort to this condescension (“if you knew your history” or “if you are rational enough to see the truth”–that kind of rhetoric); any time we challenge his history or tenets of his faith, he quickly moves to another topic. It’s hard anyways to discuss anything faith-related when the Baha’i faith is all about tolerance of any religion, and he’s happy to accept the disagreement on the principle of tolerance. One interesting point about a Baha’i wedding, which I just learned, is that the Baha’i marriage ceremony CANNOT take place in a Christian church, ever. (Tolerance?) Does anyone out there in CAF-land have experience with a Baha’i/Christian wedding?
 
My brother, a follower of the Baha’i faith, is getting married in April to a Christian woman. His fiancee’s minister won’t have anything to do with the wedding, and my brother is quite miffed about it, because “if they would do their reading,” her Christian church leaders would apparently have no cause to take issue. I told him that probably no Catholic priest would con-celebrate this non-Christian wedding, either, but he’s adamant that any priest “who does his reading” would be able to move forward and embrace the celebration. My brother’s apologetics for his faith usually resort to this condescension (“if you knew your history” or “if you are rational enough to see the truth”–that kind of rhetoric); any time we challenge his history or tenets of his faith, he quickly moves to another topic. It’s hard anyways to discuss anything faith-related when the Baha’i faith is all about tolerance of any religion, and he’s happy to accept the disagreement on the principle of tolerance. One interesting point about a Baha’i wedding, which I just learned, is that the Baha’i marriage ceremony CANNOT take place in a Christian church, ever. (Tolerance?) Does anyone out there in CAF-land have experience with a Baha’i/Christian wedding?
Are you trying to help facilitate the wedding?

I can’t really discern what exactly the concern and question is from your end outside of the fact that your brother is Baha’i and marrying some supposedly Christian woman (what denomination, not Catholic I suppose?).

As far as his insistence at “knowing history”, Baha’i started in the 19th Century A.D… What history? They practically have no more history than a little under 200 years. As far as agreeing to disagree on the principle of tolerance, he fails miserably in this little game he plays. No Christian Church for a Baha’i wedding? No Christian minister then. Tolerate that.
 
I know the Orthodox Church does not allow marriages with those who are not Christian. It doesn’t surprise me that Catholics are the same.

Seeing that you’re in Canada, outside of the United Church, Anglican Church, and Emergant Church, I very much doubt there are many denominations that would perform such a marriage.
 
The Bahai religion (sect) started during the 19th Century in Persia (todays Iran). It purports to be to Islam what Christianity is to the Judaism. Their world headquarters is in Israel and their headquarters in the US is in Wisconsin.
Because most of their membership in the moslem world are considered to be apostate moslems, they have been subjected to the most severe persecution in modern times. In addition, they, like many other sects are not tolerated in many
European countries. That is why they have settled with some success in the US. I have known several Bahai over the years, and your brother does not act or sound like one. I have never known one to be a smart alec, or an “in your face know it all.” That kind of behavior is against everything they teach.
By the way, one of the interesting things about Bahai is that they do not proselytize.
 
It is possible that a Catholic can marry a non-Christian with dispensation. Usually there would be much counseling in place before the marriage so everyone is on the same page. Also there would need to be special dispensation for the wedding to take place outside of the Church or the it would not be a recognized Catholic marriage for the Catholic party. I wonder from what you are saying if some of the issues stem not from the interfaith dialogue but your brother’s attitude towards Christianity in general.
 
By the way, one of the interesting things about Bahai is that they do not proselytize.
Not quite true. I’ve seen them doing it on this forum, they would hijack threads to talk about their religion. Additionally it is impossible to have growth, especially in the Muslim world, without it.
 
It is possible that a Catholic can marry a non-Christian with dispensation. Usually there would be much counseling in place before the marriage so everyone is on the same page. Also there would need to be special dispensation for the wedding to take place outside of the Church or the it would not be a recognized Catholic marriage for the Catholic party. I wonder from what you are saying if some of the issues stem not from the interfaith dialogue but your brother’s attitude towards Christianity in general.
My brother was brought up Catholic, but left the Church as a teenager, long time ago. He’s not got any problems with Christianity (except that we are deluded in following Jesus rather than “the Bab”, the highest manifestation of God’s love in our world :ehh:), and often participates in interfaith studies and activities, even going to Lenten reflections with my mom in the Catholic church. He’s now upset that his future wife’s Christian church can’t be as flexible as the Baha’i faith in an interfaith marriage, and thinks it’s a level of ignorance on the part of the pastor that won’t allow the two-faith ceremony. And, despite his superior intelligence in his theological studies (🤷), he’s a peaceful gentle soul and would never interfere with his future wife’s faith journey.
 
I told him that probably no Catholic priest would con-celebrate this non-Christian wedding, either, but he’s adamant that any priest “who does his reading” would be able to move forward and embrace the celebration.
a) There is no such thing as “concelebrating” a non-Christian wedding. Either a priest witness a marriage in the Catholic form, or he is an invited guest at a non-Catholic ceremony not the celebrant or witness (for example, if a Catholic gets a dispensation from Catholic form the priest **cannot **receive the exchange of consent and vows). A Catholic priest **cannot **preside over a non-Catholic ceremony.

b) The Catholic Church is not going to witness-- through its priests-- a marriage of a lapsed Catholic and a non-Catholic. The Catholic would have to come back into full communion with the Catholic Church, complete Catholic premarital preparation, and fully intend to practice the faith.

A wedding is not simply a social occassion that can be configured as you please. It is a sacrament, and thus governed by the Church.
 
My brother was brought up Catholic, but left the Church as a teenager, long time ago. He’s not got any problems with Christianity (except that we are deluded in following Jesus rather than “the Bab”, the highest manifestation of God’s love in our world :ehh:), and often participates in interfaith studies and activities, even going to Lenten reflections with my mom in the Catholic church. He’s now upset that his future wife’s Christian church can’t be as flexible as the Baha’i faith in an interfaith marriage, and thinks it’s a level of ignorance on the part of the pastor that won’t allow the two-faith ceremony. And, despite his superior intelligence in his theological studies (🤷), he’s a peaceful gentle soul and would never interfere with his future wife’s faith journey.
Well this is something he should discern before the marriage as his practices in his wifes church will often be seen the way they are now - as unwelcome. That being said and I am sure it does not matter to your brother but your brother being a baptized Catholic would be required to marry in a Catholic Church or receive dispensation. I only say that as a matter of information should he someday decide he wants to come back into the fold so to speak. The reason that I mention his attitude may be playing into it is things that you are saying like what I highlighted above. Most pastors despite the denomination do have something equivalent to a Masters and I am sure do not like being talked to like they are idiots if that is what is occurring.
 
a) There is no such thing as “concelebrating” a non-Christian wedding. Either a priest witness a marriage in the Catholic form, or he is an invited guest at a non-Catholic ceremony not the celebrant or witness (for example, if a Catholic gets a dispensation from Catholic form the priest **cannot **receive the exchange of consent and vows). A Catholic priest **cannot **preside over a non-Catholic ceremony.
Thanks for this, I wasn’t sure how that worked.
a) The Catholic Church is not going to witness-- through its priests-- a marriage of a lapsed Catholic and a non-Catholic. A wedding is not simply a social occasion that can be configured as you please. It is a sacrament, and thus governed by the Church.
Yeah, I tried to tell him this, but we returned to the “if he would do his reading” stuff. He just doesn’t get it (never did, else he wouldn’t have left the Church!). He’s not interested at all in a Catholic presence at his wedding, it just came up as a discussion when he said that even Catholic priests have the green light to “concelebrate” (his words) at a Baha’i wedding.
 
I only say that as a matter of information should he someday decide he wants to come back into the fold so to speak.
And we pray for this, fervently.
Most pastors despite the denomination do have something equivalent to a Masters and I am sure do not like being talked to like they are idiots if that is what is occurring.
I hear you! This scenario has played out in his life before, work- and profession-related.
 
I hear you! This scenario has played out in his life before, work- and profession-related.
This might be a more valuable thing to point out to him at this point than a lengthy discussion about religion. It is more likely to plant a seed that there may be room for him to be wrong.
 
I have some knowledge of the Baha’i Faith. I’ve read many of their Sacred Scriptures, for example the Kitab-i-Iqan, the Hidden Words, the Aqdas, the Summons of the Lord of Hosts, the Tablets of Abdu’l-Baha, his “Secret of Divine Civilisation”, Some Answered Questions and Directives from the Guardian (Shoghi Effendi).

Shoghi Effendi basically set forth and articulated the Baha’i attitude to interfaith marriage. He even expressly consulted a certain Baha’i who was marrying a Catholic. One peculiarity of the Baha’i marriage ceremony, which comes from their founder Baha’u’llah, is that the parents of the bride and groom have to consent to the marriage - apparently so as to foster unity between their famalies. This applies whether the parents are Bahá’ís or non Baha’is. According to Shoghi Effendi, “This great law He has laid down to strengthen the social fabric, to knit closer the ties of the home, to place a certain gratitude and respect in the hearts of the children for those who have given them life and sent their souls out on the eternal journey towards their Creator

Baha’is are allowed to participate in non-Baha’i marriage ceremonies

However

**Baha’is insist that the Baha’i ceremony also take place on the same day either before or after the non-Baha’i marriage ceremony. **

Shoghi Effendi, the Guardian of the Baha’i Faith, explained this in the Lights of Guidance:

"…120 MARRIAGE TO NON-BAHÁ’Í

“The general principle in regard to the marriage of a Bahá’í to a non-Bahá’í is as follows: If a Bahá’í marries a non-Bahá’í who wishes to have the religious ceremony of his own sect carried out, it must be quite clear that, first, the Bahá’í partner is understood to be a Bahá’í by religion, and not to accept the religion of the other party to the marriage through having his or her religious ceremony; and second, the ceremony must be of a nature which does not commit the Bahá’í to any declaration of faith in a religion other than his own. Under these circumstances the Bahá’í can partake of the religious ceremony of his non-Bahá’í partner. The Bahá’í should insist on having the Bahá’í ceremony carried out before or after the non-Bahá’í one, on the same day.”…"
 
Your Baha’i brother probably gained his negative (and I would say erroneous) understanding of Catholic Church history from reading Some Answered Questions by Abdu’l-Baha, in which one will find this:

"…let us compare the lives of some of the Popes with the religion of Christ. Christ, hungry and without shelter, ate herbs in the wilderness, and was unwilling to 136 hurt the feelings of anyone. The Pope sits in a carriage covered with gold and passes his time in the utmost splendor, amidst such pleasures and luxuries, such riches and adoration, as kings have never had.

Christ hurt no one, but some of the Popes killed innocent people: refer to history. How much blood the Popes have shed merely to retain temporal power! For mere differences of opinion they arrested, imprisoned and slew thousands of the servants of the world of humanity and learned men who had discovered the secrets of nature. To what a degree they opposed the truth!

Reflect upon the instructions of Christ, and investigate the habits and customs of the Popes. Consider: is there any resemblance between the instructions of Christ and the manner of government of the Popes? We do not like to criticize, but the history of the Vatican is very extraordinary. The purport of our argument is this, that the instructions of Christ are one thing, and the manner of the Papal government is quite another; they do not agree. See how many Protestants have been killed by the order of the Popes, how many tyrannies and oppressions have been countenanced, and how many punishments and tortures have been inflicted! Can any of the sweet fragrances of Christ be detected in these actions? No! in the name of God! These people did not obey Christ, while Saint Barbara, whose picture is before us, did obey Christ, and followed in His footsteps, and put His commands into practice. Among the Popes there are also some blessed souls who followed in the footsteps of Christ, particularly in the first centuries of the Christian era when temporal things were lacking and the tests of God were severe. But when they came into possession of governmental power, and worldly honor and prosperity were gained, the Papal government entirely forgot Christ and was occupied with temporal power, grandeur, comfort and luxuries. It killed people, opposed the diffusion of learning, tormented the 137 men of science, obstructed the light of knowledge, and gave the order to slay and to pillage. Thousands of souls, men of science and learning, and sinless ones, perished in the prisons of Rome. With all these proceedings and actions, how can the Vicarship of Christ be believed in?

The Papal See has constantly opposed knowledge; even in Europe it is admitted that religion is the opponent of science, and that science is the destroyer of the foundations of religion…"

This is a complete misunderstanding of Catholic history and the Catholic Church’s relationship with science. However it is easily refuted if one closely studies history from modern un-biased sources which to be fair, Abdu’l-Baha did not have at hand when he said this. The sad thing nonetheless is that despite Abdu’l-Baha’s good intentions, Baha’is believe the above to be divinely inspired, which is probably why your brother is so adamant that Catholic history is so dire. However, some Baha’is will probably recognize that Abdu’l-Baha was infallible - from their perspective - only in terms of moral and doctrinal truth, and not in history, and so will be open to the idea that he got some historical facts wrong, as a result of the relatively biased histories of the time, which he surely must have consulted.

In truth the rational theology of the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages led directly to the discoveries of modern science.

As Thomas E. Woods, Jr. explained, despite the widely held conception of the Catholic Church as being anti-science, this conventional wisdom has been the subject of “drastic revision” by historians of science over the last 50 years. Woods asserts that the mainstream view now is that the “Church [has] played a positive role in the development of science … even if this new consensus has not yet managed to trickle down to the general public”.

The Baha’i Faith also has a lot of positive, nice things to say about Catholicism:

"The Guardian agrees with you that the Bahá’ís should be very careful not to criticize or rather attack the [Catholic] Church. As we believe the Church of Rome to be the inheritor, so to speak, of Christ’s teachings, the direct line, however perverted by men’s doctrines, it certainly does not befit us to show antagonism towards it. We know it is out-dated. Tact is required!"

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, March 22, 1950)

"A Catholic background is an excellent introduction to the Faith, and one that Mrs. … should feel gratified for having had. Though doctrines of the church today are no longer needed – as the Father Himself has come, and thus fulfilled the mission of Christ the Son yet the foundation they lay of spiritual discipline, and their emphasis on spiritual values and adherence to moral laws, is very important and very close to our own beliefs." *(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to two believers, August 17, 1941; Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 491) *

Directives from the Guardian: 107 JESUS (Virgin Birth of)

"With regard to your question concerning the Virgin Birth of Jesus; on this point, as on several others, the Baha’i teachings are in full agreement with the doctrines of the Catholic Church."
 
More Baha’i views on Catholicism:

Messages to Canada:

"The beloved Guardian has directed me to write you, that he feels it is time for the Canadian Baha’is, in their teaching work, to concentrate, to the extent possible, on bringing Catholics into the Faith. There are a vast number of French Canadians who are of Catholic persuasion. They would make fine Baha’is, and if representative members could be brought into the Faith, it will add prestige to the Faith, and help solidify its institutions. Thus, to the extent possible, the friends should do what they can to attract Catholics and then confirm them in the Faith."

Abdu’l-Baha also proved people wrong about Catholics once, in his Tablets of the Divine Plan - the one addressed to Canada. Montreal is the only Canadian city to have been visited by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá during His visit to North America, from August 30 to September 9, 1912.

He later wrote of His travels to Montreal in The Tablets of the Divine Plan:

**"Before my departure, many souls warned me not to travel to Montreal, saying, the majority of the inhabitants are Catholics, and are in the utmost fanaticism, that they are submerged in the sea of imitations, that they have not the capability to hearken to the call of the Kingdom of God, that the veil of bigotry has so covered the eyes that they have deprived themselves from beholding the signs of the most great guidance, and that the dogmas have taken possession of the hearts entirely, leaving no trace of reality. They asserted that should the Sun of Reality shine with perfect splendor throughout that Dominion, the dark, impenetrable clouds of superstitions have 525 so enveloped the horizon that it would be utterly impossible for any one to behold its rays.

“But these stories did not have any effect on the resolution of Abdul Baha. He, trusting in God, turned his face toward Montreal. When he entered that city he observed all the doors open, he found the hearts in the utmost receptivity and the ideal power of the Kingdom of God removing every obstacle and obstruction. In the churches and meetings of that Dominion he called men to the Kingdom of God with the utmost joy, and scattered such seeds which will be irrigated with the hand of Divine Power. Undoubtedly those seeds will grow, becoming green and verdant, and many rich harvests will be gathered. In the promotion of the divine principles he found no antagonist and no adversary. The believers he met in that city were in the utmost spirituality, and attracted with the fragrances of God. He found that through the effort of the maid-servant of God, Mrs. Maxwell, a number of the sons and daughter of the Kingdom in that Dominion were gathered together and associated with each other, increasing this joyous exhilaration day by day. The time of sojourn was limited to a number of days, but the results in the future are inexhaustible. When a farmer comes into the possession of a virgin soil, in a short time he will bring under cultivation a large field. Therefore I hope that in the future Montreal may become so stirred, that the melody of the Kingdom may travel to all parts of the world from that Dominion and the breaths of the Holy Spirit may spread from that center to the East and the West of America.”** (Baha’i Scriptures, p. 524)

"The day after His arrival in Montreal 'Abdu’l-Bahá went for a drive, and sighting the magnificent Roman Catholic Church of Notre Dame, He went in. When He came out, standing in the porch, He turned to those who were in His company and told them to take a lesson from that very church. It was the total self-abnegation of the apostles of Christ which had raised that splendorous edifice in a land far, far from the scene of their labours. Those disciples, said 'Abdu’l-Bahá, made a pact to go out into the wide world, preach the Gospel, and accept every tribulation for the sake of their Master. They stood by their pledge, and not a single one of them ever returned. And there beside them, He told that company, stood the concrete evidence of the selfless efforts of the disciples of Christ. Some years before, when perils surrounded Him on all sides, 'Abdu’l-Bahá had written in His Will and Testament:"

(H.M. Balyuzi, Abdu’l-Baha - The Centre of the Covenant, p. 259)
 
The Bahai teachings also do not allow for “concelebration.” (see the quote below). They do allow for two or three (if civil law requires a civil formality as well) events held on the same day, but the mixing of different religions is not the Bahai way. The Bahai service should be clearly Bahai, the Christian service Christian; the Bahai partner should not pretend or imply that he/she is not a Bahai, and the same for the Christian partner.

Contrary to what has been said in this thread, a Bahai marriage ceremony can take place in a Christian church. The NSA of the USA has the following guidelines:
When Two Ceremonies Are Held
Under these circumstances, the Bahá’í can partake of the religious ceremony of his non-Bahá’í partner. The Bahá’í should insist on having the Bahá’í ceremony carried out before or after the non Bahá’í one, on the same day.
(Written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi, letter dated June 20, 1954)
When a Bahá’í is marrying a non-Bahá’í, and the religious wedding ceremony of the non-Bahá’í partner is to be held in addition to the Bahá’í ceremony, both ceremonies may, if requested, be held in the place of worship of the other religion provided that:
  • Equal respect is accorded to both ceremonies. In other words, the Bahá’í ceremony, which is basically so simple, should not be regarded as a mere formal adjunct to the ceremony of the other religion.
16.20 Marriage
  • The two ceremonies are clearly distinct. In other words, they should not be commingled into one combined ceremony.
It appears that your brother may not be well informed about the Bahai Faith. Feel free to pass on my contact (sen.sonja@casema.nl) for any questions he may have. If I don’t know, I know where to ask.
 
Sen McGlinn and Vouthon:

Thanks so much for this information! You know, I wasn’t going to “go there” anymore with him, I had nothing to say except what I knew from the Catholic side of things, which seemed irrelevant as my brother is no longer a practicing Catholic. I didn’t know how disparaging their beliefs about Catholics are–I guess the “use tact” adage works, as he never has revealed any of those teachings, except for the warped world and Church history which my husband and I refute and he doesn’t bring it up anymore. I know his future wife is heartbroken that her minister has declined to be involved in the wedding. God bless you!
:tiphat:
 
Sen McGlinn and Vouthon:

Thanks so much for this information! You know, I wasn’t going to “go there” anymore with him, I had nothing to say except what I knew from the Catholic side of things, which seemed irrelevant as my brother is no longer a practicing Catholic. I didn’t know how disparaging their beliefs about Catholics are–I guess the “use tact” adage works, as he never has revealed any of those teachings, except for the warped world and Church history which my husband and I refute and he doesn’t bring it up anymore. I know his future wife is heartbroken that her minister has declined to be involved in the wedding. God bless you!
:tiphat:
Is his future wife heartbroken that their children won’t know a Christian father? That the father of her future children is openly rejecting Christian doctrine? Does your brother intend on butting heads with his future wife over the spiritual direction child rearing takes?

Sounds like both of them are more selfish than they realize. Marriage isn’t just some extended dating game where cool people that make our hearts flutter keep on doing just that. It’s a lifelong commitment and when children are potentially involved, especially in a place so freaking liberal as Canada, it appears that any future offspring of this union will likely grow up confused as can be.

I personally hope this situation ends before it begins. It sounds to me like you’re trying to facilitate the wedding of a Christian and a decidedly non-Christian who openly rejects the Christian faith despite his seemingly honorific achievement of graduating from “Me, myself, and I” University in the self-study program.
 
Thank you, jonbhorton, you made some very good points.
Is his future wife heartbroken that their children won’t know a Christian father? That the father of her future children is openly rejecting Christian doctrine? Does your brother intend on butting heads with his future wife over the spiritual direction child rearing takes?
I haven’t yet met this woman. I live a long way from where I grew up, and I won’t be going to the wedding. It’s hard for me to say much, I’m the only practicing Catholic in my family except my mom, who nurtures a more liberal relativistic stance in her faith. I’m going to ask him these questions, though; he needs to think about this.
It sounds to me like you’re trying to facilitate the wedding of a Christian and a decidedly non-Christian who openly rejects the Christian faith…
Am facilitating nothing; have questioned everything. And am VERY thankful for a lot of clarification in this forum.

It seems that the Baha’is I have met don’t outwardly reject Christianity, though I can see now that many of their teachings are anti-Christian, and it’s hard to engage them in this conversation, somewhat like trying to get the door-to-door proselytizers of other faiths to change their practiced speeches. The Baha’i faith is about consultation and compromise, it’s not easy to have a debate. As I’ve said, any time a discussion gets kind of juicy, and we confront his ideas, the topic gets changed.
 
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