Baha'i Returns Thread: Ask Any of Many Baha'i

[Reuben_J]

Thanks, but no thanks, daler. I don’t have to reinvent the wheel. There is no need to repair what ain’t broken. Sometimes we search the whole world when what we are searching for is right at our own backyard. I am satisfied enough with what I have now and I hope I have explained them. You are welcome to address all or any aspect of what I have posted and I am more than glad to comply.

 

[Reuben_J]

Does that sound too far fetched to you? Because in some parts of the world you have to dig the truth out of the ways things are said, rather than them simply handing it all to you. This requires thought and the appliance of soul searching, conscience wrestling, etc.

But they came from that part of the world, my friend. The Church was not built in the USA but by the same people with the tradition you just mentioned. And the Church can traced it all the way back to them some two thousand years ago. The understanding of the death and the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ is not something that came out of various councils and developed from centuries of teachings of the Church. No, it was taught by the witnesses themselves and as how they saw and experienced it which they passed to us until today.

Reuben,
. How about lets go with Arthur’s instincts and find another horse to whip awhile??

I could say more but in deference to your religion, I won’t. Suffice to say, as for me and for my family, revelation have stopped after Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. And I am not at anytime soon will fall for any prophet Johnny who says otherwise.

 

[Servant19]

But they came from that part of the world, my friend. The Church was not built in the USA but by the same people with the tradition you just mentioned. And the Church can traced it all the way back to them some two thousand years ago. The understanding of the death and the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ is not something that came out of various councils and developed from centuries of teachings of the Church. No, it was taught by the witnesses themselves and as how they saw and experienced it which they passed to us until today.

This is not a rhetorical question, I genuinely wish to know, I don’t trust some internet sources, but did any of the authors of the Gospels actually witness the resurrection themselves?

I could say more but in deference to your religion, I won’t. Suffice to say, as for me and for my family, revelation have stopped after Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. And I am not at anytime soon will fall for any prophet Johnny who says otherwise.

Dear friend, look at the reality of the world right now, the Revelation of Jesus cannot possibly administer to the needs of society. Church and state are seperate entities and the Catholic Church has no interest in administering to the complex needs of an increasingly desperate society. How can the world NOT NEED, absolutely NEED further guidance from God on how to bring about a situation where “the governement will be upon His shoulders”?

Don’t you think this is a necessity in todays world?

 

[ronyodish]

Yes, of course, I acknowledge that these attributes are found to reside perfectly within the entities of Jesus, and Baha’u’llah

Servant19,

These attributes belong to the Father, Son (Jesus Christ), Holy Spirit, and that’s it. Only the Triune God is all-powerful, and all-loving, etc.

If the Father has an equal, why then not call ALL His equals the Father as well?
Jesus clearly distinguished Himself from the Father in the NT. How are they distinct and how are they equal? Equal and distinct cannot rationally occupy two entities concurrently…

The Son and the Holy Spirit are both equal to the Father, because all three of them are one God. No One of the Three is more or less God than the other. This is how all the Three are equal to each other.

God the Father is called the Father because He is the eternal begetter and source of the whole Trinity. God the Son is called the Son because He is eternally begotten of the Father, begotten not made, of the same essence as the Father. The Holy Spirit is called the Holy Spirit because He is the life-giving Spirit of God who proceeds from the Father through the Son. Each One’s designated title in the Trinity tells us about who They are, and how They are inter-related.

So, when describing the relationship within the Trinity, we don’t call the Son as Father, nor do we call the Holy Spirit as Father, because this will confuse us as to the inter-relationship that exists between the Three. The One who begets is called the Father; the One who is begotten is called the Son; the One who proceeds is called the Holy Spirit… that’s how we confess them.

Jesus is distinct or distinguished from the Father, yes, because Jesus is the Son. The Father is the Father, the Son is the Son, and we don’t confuse the two… that’s how They are distinct. However, as to equality, Jesus, as the Son of God, is equal to the Father in the Divine Nature, meaning, the Son and the Father are One God and Undivided. Here, you can see how equality and distinction can coexist in the Trinity. It is a Divine Mystery, for sure, but this Mystery does not contradict logic, because equality is a reference to the “what” of God, whereas distinction is a reference to the “who” of God.

So if the Father is 1st in terms of eternal “generation” how was the Son “generated”? According to you, the Son “proceeded” AFTER the Father. When something comes AFTER something else, the first becomes the generator of the latter…

The Son was eternally generated, eternally begotten, not made. The eternal procession is used in reference not to the Son, but to the Holy Spirit. So, the Father eternally begets the Son, the Son is eternally begotten of the Father, and the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father through the Son.

There is no time in eternity, like how time is present here on earth, and so the Holy Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) always existed and forever will exist. The fact that the Father eternally generates the Son does not mean that there was a time when the Son was not there, because we are dealing with eternity, not with time. We reject any teaching which says that there was a time when the Son and the Holy Spirit did not exist.

These are all very true, dear friend, the question is why would Jesus even point out these things if there was not a time when a lover of Christ would need to make a decision? And that decision is how to know whether a Prophet standing before you is OR is not from God…

Jesus and His Apostles have pointed these things out because humanity have been created with a free will, and with this free will, we get to decide whether or not to follow the will of God, or the will of men, or the will of the evil one. Christ created the Church as the ship on which believers must sail, lest they be drowned in the waters of falsehood and wickedness. The Church, the Body of Christ, determines for us who is and who is not a prophet of God standing before us. And this Church, the Holy Catholic Church, teaches us that there is no further public revelation to be expected before the second coming of Christ.

I can name several hundreds of people throughout history that have come in the name of Christ and have deceived His loved ones. But the question is, what if you are presented with a Gospel that DOES NOT go “contrary to the Gospel which we preached you”, what would you do then, and how would you know?

The Scriptures say that “he that is not against us is for us” (Mark 9:40). The Baha’i, however, are against us, because they teach us errors, ship-wrecking falsehood, when they say that in addition to Jesus the Manifestation of God, there came other Manifestations of God like Muhammad, Baha’u’llah, etc. The Church rejects any teaching which makes Jesus as merely and only a Manifestation of God in a long line of other Manifestations of God. The Church confesses that Jesus, and only Jesus, is the eternally begotten Son of God. Any teaching to the contrary is a false gospel.

So, we can ultimately determine the truthfulness and falsehood of teachings from the authority of the Church, the Body of Christ.

 

[ronyodish]

Continued…

What if I was to say that Baha’u’llah has clarified this verse by saying that Muhammad was talking about the human side of Christ. In the Bible, it clearly states that “God is spirit”…He was not made flesh BEFORE Jesus was born. He was not made flesh and engaged in the marital embrace with Mary and conceived Jesus, did He? So the Father cannot have a physical son, in terms of how humans do it.

But what it does say is that Jesus enjoyed an absolutely UNIQUE union with God which is not shared amongst mortal beings like us. It is a spiritual union, a divine union, which transends ENORMOUSLY beyond any physical union. Hope that is clearly understood.

Jesus Christ is one Person, one Son. To say that the human side of Christ, the human nature, does not belong to the Son of God Incarnate is to divide the incarnation from the Son of God. The Son of God assumed a human nature, a human body and human soul, and united it to Himself. From the moment of conception, the Lord Jesus was forever an Indivisible Union between the uncreated Divine Son, and the created human body and soul, which the Son created for Himself.

So, Muhammad is a false prophet for teaching that Christ is not the Son of God Incarnate, and Baha’u’llah is a false prophet if he teaches that you can divide the human nature from the divine nature of the Son of God.

Yes, God is spirit. God the Son was only spiritual, and did not become flesh before He was conceived in St. Mary’s womb. From the conception forward, the Son became not just God, but also Man, and this Union between God and Man is undivided. The Holy Spirit came upon her, and the power of the Most High God overshadowed her, and she conceived the Son of God. This was not done in the ordinary natural and sexual way, but miraculously by the power of God.

However, the Son was always the Son of God the Father before the incarnation, which Muhammad rejected, because he rejected the Trinity. Likewise, the Son remained the Son of God the Father after the incarnation, which Muhammad rejected, because He rejected the Incarnation. So, there is no escaping the fact that Muhammad and Islam rejected the core teachings of Christianity, no matter how your Baha’i faith tries to explain away and re-interpret the teachings of Muhammad.

The Union that Jesus enjoyed is twofold: First, in His divine nature, Jesus the Son of God, is united indivisibly with the Father and the Holy Spirit as one God. Second, in His human nature, Jesus the Son of God, is united indivisibly with a human body and human soul. This Union with divinity and humanity is unique to Jesus, and only Jesus. The spiritual unity of the Son with Divinity does transcend but does not belittle, or swallow up, or do away with the physical unity that He has with Humanity.

When clarification is sought and a pure heart is used to “see” and “understand” there is no contradiction. Each Manifestation of God has a specific purpose and a specific Message that is tailored to allow a population of peoples to literally “haul” themselves from abasement and godlessness, towards civility, nobility and godliness.

Surely, the early Islamic civilizations were praiseworthy and contributed greatly towards human advancements?

Baha’u’llah has categorically stated: (especially take note of the second paragraph)

With all due respect, your clarification doesn’t clarify anything. It is a fact that Muhammad and Islam reject our Trinity and Incarnation, and all you and your Baha’i faith is doing is trying to re-interpret Muhammad so as to make him sound compatible with Christianity. But even your faith’s re-interpretation is problematic for us. So, a contradiction is a contradiction, and there is nothing to see and understand about a contradiction. The proper response when presented with a falsehood that contradicts truth, is to reject the falsehood.

There are no other Manifestations of God who incarnated for us and for our salvation other than the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God who became Man. Further, the Lord Jesus is not just a Manifestation, rather, He is God Almighty through whom all men and everything was created, including those mere men and false prophets that you consider as Manifestations. Also, the message of the Lord Jesus is for all humanity and for all generations, not just for a particular era or a particular people.

Whatever truth the Islamic religion has brought to the world was simultaneously mixed and tainted with falsehood which came with it. One can acknowledge the beauty and holiness in other religions, as the Catholic Church acknowledges, but at the same time, the same Church warns us about the falsehood, the ugliness, and the teachings of men that can exist in these religions which counter and contradict the word of God and the authority of Christ’s Church.

 

[ronyodish]

Continued…

"Know thou assuredly that the essence of all the Prophets of God is one and the same. Their unity is absolute. God, the Creator, saith: There is no distinction whatsoever among the Bearers of My Message. They all have but one purpose; their secret is the same secret. To prefer one in honor to another, to exalt certain ones above the rest, is in no wise to be permitted. Every true Prophet hath regarded His Message as fundamentally the same as the Revelation of every other Prophet gone before Him. …

The measure of the revelation of the Prophets of God in this world, however, must differ. Each and every one of them hath been the Bearer of a distinct Message, and hath been commissioned to reveal Himself through specific acts. It is for this reason that they appear to vary in their greatness. Their Revelation may be likened unto the light of the moon that sheddeth its radiance upon the earth. Though every time it appeareth, it revealeth a fresh measure of its brightness, yet its inherent splendor can never diminish, nor can its light suffer extinction.

It is clear and evident, therefore, that any apparent variation in the intensity of their light is not inherent in the light itself, but should rather be attributed to the varying receptivity of an ever-changing world. Every Prophet Whom the Almighty and Peerless Creator hath purposed to send to the peoples of the earth hath been entrusted with a Message, and charged to act in a manner that would best meet the requirements of the age in which He appeared. God’s purpose in sending His Prophets unto men is twofold. The first is to liberate the children of men from the darkness of ignorance, and guide them to the light of true understanding. The second is to ensure the peace and tranquillity of mankind, and provide all the means by which they can be established."

In this block quote you’ve given me, Baha’u’llah is showing himself here as to why he is indeed a false Prophet. By saying that “the essence of all the Prophets of God is one and the same”, and to say that to “prefer one in honor to another, to exalt certain ones above the rest, is in no wise to be permitted”, he is really making no essential distinction between Jesus, Muhammad, and the others. I am presuming that He is including Jesus as being one of the Prophets here. So, to counter him… we reject any teaching which places Jesus as merely and only a Prophet among a long line of Prophets. Jesus is not just and only a Priest, Prophet, and King… rather, He is more than that… He is Almighty God. No other mere man, or any true Prophet, or any so-called and self-proclaimed Prophet, is in the same category as the Lord Jesus Christ.

He says that the “measure of the revelation of the Prophets of God in this world, however, must differ”. True revelation from God can not contradict itself. Any differences in revelation can not be essential contradictions. Catholics only accept the public revelation that was made to the Jewish people (Old Testament), and the public revelation that came with Christ (New Testament). Any differences between the Old and New testaments are not essentially contradictory. But the so-called “revelation” of the Qur’an is in fact essentially contradictory to the revelation which culminated in our Lord Jesus.

Rony, I would like you to read the dialogue above this post to understand the theological questions raised by the PHYSICAL resurrection of Jesus. Please feel free to share your thoughts on it.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church addresses the resurrection of Jesus, and also our resurrection:

scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a5p2.htm

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a11.htm

God bless you always,

Rony

 

[PRmerger]

This is not a rhetorical question, I genuinely wish to know, I don’t trust some internet sources, but did any of the authors of the Gospels actually witness the resurrection themselves?

Possibly John.

We do know that the Gospels were written during the lifetime of the actual witnesses. And this is crucially important.

The Gospels were written in such a temporal and geographical proximity to the events they record that it would have been almost impossible to fabricate events…The fact that the disciples were able to proclaim the resurrection in Jerusalem in the face of their enemies a few weeks after the crucifixion shows that what they proclaimed was true, for they could never have proclaimed the resurrection (and been believed) under such circumstances had it not occurred." (Knowing the Truth About the Resurrection, chapter 6)

 

[Servant19]

Servant19,

These attributes belong to the Father, Son (Jesus Christ), Holy Spirit, and that’s it. Only the Triune God is all-powerful, and all-loving, etc.

The Son and the Holy Spirit are both equal to the Father, because all three of them are one God. No One of the Three is more or less God than the other. This is how all the Three are equal to each other.

God the Father is called the Father because He is the eternal begetter and source of the whole Trinity. God the Son is called the Son because He is eternally begotten of the Father, begotten not made, of the same essence as the Father. The Holy Spirit is called the Holy Spirit because He is the life-giving Spirit of God who proceeds from the Father through the Son. Each One’s designated title in the Trinity tells us about who They are, and how They are inter-related.

So, when describing the relationship within the Trinity, we don’t call the Son as Father, nor do we call the Holy Spirit as Father, because this will confuse us as to the inter-relationship that exists between the Three. The One who begets is called the Father; the One who is begotten is called the Son; the One who proceeds is called the Holy Spirit… that’s how we confess them.

Jesus is distinct or distinguished from the Father, yes, because Jesus is the Son. The Father is the Father, the Son is the Son, and we don’t confuse the two… that’s how They are distinct. However, as to equality, Jesus, as the Son of God, is equal to the Father in the Divine Nature, meaning, the Son and the Father are One God and Undivided. Here, you can see how equality and distinction can coexist in the Trinity. It is a Divine Mystery, for sure, but this Mystery does not contradict logic, because equality is a reference to the “what” of God, whereas distinction is a reference to the “who” of God.

The Son was eternally generated, eternally begotten, not made. The eternal procession is used in reference not to the Son, but to the Holy Spirit. So, the Father eternally begets the Son, the Son is eternally begotten of the Father, and the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father through the Son.

There is no time in eternity, like how time is present here on earth, and so the Holy Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) always existed and forever will exist. The fact that the Father eternally generates the Son does not mean that there was a time when the Son was not there, because we are dealing with eternity, not with time. We reject any teaching which says that there was a time when the Son and the Holy Spirit did not exist.

Jesus and His Apostles have pointed these things out because humanity have been created with a free will, and with this free will, we get to decide whether or not to follow the will of God, or the will of men, or the will of the evil one. Christ created the Church as the ship on which believers must sail, lest they be drowned in the waters of falsehood and wickedness. The Church, the Body of Christ, determines for us who is and who is not a prophet of God standing before us. And this Church, the Holy Catholic Church, teaches us that there is no further public revelation to be expected before the second coming of Christ.

The Scriptures say that “he that is not against us is for us” (Mark 9:40). The Baha’i, however, are against us, because they teach us errors, ship-wrecking falsehood, when they say that in addition to Jesus the Manifestation of God, there came other Manifestations of God like Muhammad, Baha’u’llah, etc. The Church rejects any teaching which makes Jesus as merely and only a Manifestation of God in a long line of other Manifestations of God. The Church confesses that Jesus, and only Jesus, is the eternally begotten Son of God. Any teaching to the contrary is a false gospel.

So, we can ultimately determine the truthfulness and falsehood of teachings from the authority of the Church, the Body of Christ.

My dear friend, your exposition of the Trinity is 100% in line with Bahai theology, THANKYOU

I also hereby declare to you that Baha’u’llah IS Christ in His Second Coming

If you reject this proposition, and are expecting Christ to come down literally as a glorified body, how would you know it is Him, since you have never seen Him before?

Lastly, what if the Chirch, the Body of Christ ITSELF provides false teachings? How do you reconcile these lapses of godliness from the Church itself?

 

[Servant19]

Continued…

Jesus Christ is one Person, one Son. To say that the human side of Christ, the human nature, does not belong to the Son of God Incarnate is to divide the incarnation from the Son of God. The Son of God assumed a human nature, a human body and human soul, and united it to Himself. From the moment of conception, the Lord Jesus was forever an Indivisible Union between the uncreated Divine Son, and the created human body and soul, which the Son created for Himself.

So, Muhammad is a false prophet for teaching that Christ is not the Son of God Incarnate, and Baha’u’llah is a false prophet if he teaches that you can divide the human nature from the divine nature of the Son of God.

Yes, God is spirit. God the Son was only spiritual, and did not become flesh before He was conceived in St. Mary’s womb. From the conception forward, the Son became not just God, but also Man, and this Union between God and Man is undivided. The Holy Spirit came upon her, and the power of the Most High God overshadowed her, and she conceived the Son of God. This was not done in the ordinary natural and sexual way, but miraculously by the power of God.

However, the Son was always the Son of God the Father before the incarnation, which Muhammad rejected, because he rejected the Trinity. Likewise, the Son remained the Son of God the Father after the incarnation, which Muhammad rejected, because He rejected the Incarnation. So, there is no escaping the fact that Muhammad and Islam rejected the core teachings of Christianity, no matter how your Baha’i faith tries to explain away and re-interpret the teachings of Muhammad.

The Union that Jesus enjoyed is twofold: First, in His divine nature, Jesus the Son of God, is united indivisibly with the Father and the Holy Spirit as one God. Second, in His human nature, Jesus the Son of God, is united indivisibly with a human body and human soul. This Union with divinity and humanity is unique to Jesus, and only Jesus. The spiritual unity of the Son with Divinity does transcend but does not belittle, or swallow up, or do away with the physical unity that He has with Humanity.

With all due respect, your clarification doesn’t clarify anything. It is a fact that Muhammad and Islam reject our Trinity and Incarnation, and all you and your Baha’i faith is doing is trying to re-interpret Muhammad so as to make him sound compatible with Christianity. But even your faith’s re-interpretation is problematic for us. So, a contradiction is a contradiction, and there is nothing to see and understand about a contradiction. The proper response when presented with a falsehood that contradicts truth, is to reject the falsehood.

There are no other Manifestations of God who incarnated for us and for our salvation other than the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God who became Man. Further, the Lord Jesus is not just a Manifestation, rather, He is God Almighty through whom all men and everything was created, including those mere men and false prophets that you consider as Manifestations. Also, the message of the Lord Jesus is for all humanity and for all generations, not just for a particular era or a particular people.

Whatever truth the Islamic religion has brought to the world was simultaneously mixed and tainted with falsehood which came with it. One can acknowledge the beauty and holiness in other religions, as the Catholic Church acknowledges, but at the same time, the same Church warns us about the falsehood, the ugliness, and the teachings of men that can exist in these religions which counter and contradict the word of God and the authority of Christ’s Church.

Where do the words “Jesus is not the Son of God incarnate” appear in the Quran?

I will tell you why the Divine and human aspects of Christ can be separated. It’s because His Divine aspect existed eternally in the past, yet His human aspect was created, by cellular proliferation in the womb of His Blessed Mother 2000 years ago. Did anyone on earth ever witness or know about Jesus before 2000 years ago? Was there any record of a man named Jesus in the year 10BC? No, the DIVINE aspect of Christ creates human versions of Itself, it becomes flesh as it were, and can become flesh AS MANY TIMES AS IT LIKES THROUGHOUT HISTORY.

It is your test from God to recognize that Divine aspect, no matter what human form it may take

 

[Reuben_J]

This is not a rhetorical question, I genuinely wish to know, I don’t trust some internet sources, but did any of the authors of the Gospels actually witness the resurrection themselves?

You sound sincere but why do I have this feeling that you already knew the answer to this.

The writers of the New Testaments were first generation witnesses – they were either the apostles or their immediate disciples. Taking the authors at face value, two were apostles (Mathew and John) while the other two were disciples of the apostles (Mark and Luke). In any case none of the Gospel narrations were disputed by the other writers on the New Testament who were apostles (Peter and James) not counting John who also wrote a Gospel. So yes, they witnessed the resurrection and able to verified its truth. Paul is controversial especially to the Muslims and if one takes out Luke who was his disciples, you still have the three Gospel writers who were witnesses.

Dear friend, look at the reality of the world right now, the Revelation of Jesus cannot possibly administer to the needs of society. Church and state are seperate entities and the Catholic Church has no interest in administering to the complex needs of an increasingly desperate society. How can the world NOT NEED, absolutely NEED further guidance from God on how to bring about a situation where “the governement will be upon His shoulders”?

Don’t you think this is a necessity in todays world?

My first reaction to this is, “huh”? Then I realize where you come from and probably this is your religious concern. The answer to this depends on one’s perspective of what one think is the role of religion. I would see the two as separate issues in the line of Caesar and God. Yet the role of the Church (both the hierarchy and faithful) is to bring the God News to those who have not heard of them.

My answer to you is that the ultimate need of the world is to hear the God News and be converted. It is to seek the Lord and everything else will fall into place. No matter how good is governmental action, without belief in the Good News you will not have an ideal society.

People are hungry for God’s word and that is their real needs and necessity. The responsibility for this does not lie on the Catholic Church alone and a governmental hierarchy but also on all Christians. The sign for that is good – they make up of nearly a quarter of the world population and with the power of the media they can reach to the whole world.

But yet, the wheat must grow with the darnel until harvest time where they would be harvested. People are granted choice and the freedom of freewill. No amount of forced governmental action can change this freewill.

I hope what I say makes sense to you. Remind me if I am too vague and not specific enough.

 

[Servant19]

Continued…

In this block quote you’ve given me, Baha’u’llah is showing himself here as to why he is indeed a false Prophet. By saying that “the essence of all the Prophets of God is one and the same”, and to say that to “prefer one in honor to another, to exalt certain ones above the rest, is in no wise to be permitted”, he is really making no essential distinction between Jesus, Muhammad, and the others. I am presuming that He is including Jesus as being one of the Prophets here. So, to counter him… we reject any teaching which places Jesus as merely and only a Prophet among a long line of Prophets. Jesus is not just and only a Priest, Prophet, and King… rather, He is more than that… He is Almighty God. No other mere man, or any true Prophet, or any so-called and self-proclaimed Prophet, is in the same category as the Lord Jesus Christ.

He says that the “measure of the revelation of the Prophets of God in this world, however, must differ”. True revelation from God can not contradict itself. Any differences in revelation can not be essential contradictions. Catholics only accept the public revelation that was made to the Jewish people (Old Testament), and the public revelation that came with Christ (New Testament). Any differences between the Old and New testaments are not essentially contradictory. But the so-called “revelation” of the Qur’an is in fact essentially contradictory to the revelation which culminated in our Lord Jesus.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church addresses the resurrection of Jesus, and also our resurrection:

scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a5p2.htm

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a11.htm

God bless you always,

Rony

Rony, I am confused. Jesus on several occasions called Himself a Prophet. Can you clarify why He would do that and deceive people in this manner, if that’s not what He was?

 

[happyme]

Sure we can discuss other things. Maybe somebody can bring them up.

I find it is an interesting discussion if for anything I hear the view from Baha’i on this subject. There is an obvious chasm between our beliefs respectively and even though it can be subtle at times there is nevertheless the separation between the two.

I will go back to what I have highlighted - that the Christian belief is based on Sacred Tradition and the Bible which we used in the discussion, is to be understood together with it.

May I make an observation to your comments here my Christian friend.

You speak of an obvious chasm between our beliefs, but reality I am sure it is not all that great. You speak of Sacred Tradition and the Bible, with great respect I feel you need to separate the two, firstly The Bible we as Baha’is would defend against any who would speak ill of it etc., but saying that the problem we see is in the translations of passages from the Bible, here lies the problem leading to some of your Sacred Traditions.

Now we are followers of Baha’u’llah, we of course seeing in Him the sacred, seeing in Him what we know of God, the same with Jesus in Him the people of His day and up to now, people can get an understanding of God. Now you may not wish to accept Baha’u’llah in the same light as Christ, this is OK with us we are used to this stance.

But our understanding of the Bible of course is guided by the explanations of The Bab and Baha’u’llah who we see as the twin Manifestations of God for this day, the day foretold in the old Testament. This is the reason we at times see things a little different, Christ Himself told of this new knowledge coming, that you may refuse to accept is Ok by me, we are all responsible for our own belief, I just wish to see us all treat with respect each other and our beliefs. This thread is about people asking the Baha’is of their belief, that is wonderful, but it should never be the cause of anger and accusations of telling each other that one is false or insinuating lies etc, which I see some doing.

If someone refuses to believe what the Baha’is say, then yes declare that, and then walk away, God has not created religion for the cause of division, but for the world of man to find peace and love.

I must say Reuben I have found your questioning polite and good, you are an example of His Holiness Christ, thank you, I have just tried to explain a little more clearly to all.

 

[Servant19]

Just reading the responses from PRMerger and Reuben regarding witnesses to the resurrection, and I see that you contradict each other.

Can I have the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth please your honor

We should have joy in these threads. A joke here and there fosters heightened spirit
God LOVES laughter!

There is a story of when the Holy Family of Baha’u’llah had just arrived in the Prison City of Akka, having followed Baha’u’llah from country to country, prison to prison during His 40 year imprisonment. The night they arrived, they were allowed to visit Baha’u’llah and spend some time with Him beside His prison cell.

That night, the family were so full of joy, so happy, laughed so incredibly hard, that Baha’u’llah had to tell them to STOP, for fear of the guards thinking that they had all gone crazy!! LOL (I just love that recollection of Baha’u’llahs daughter)

What a wonderful story we have to draw on to cheer the heart during times of immense hardship. God truly loves laughter!!

 

[SteveVH]

Thus is, very me at least, becoming theologically untenable.

1. We have established that Jesus’ glorified body was raised and He is with the Father in this condition currently. He, in this condition, retains His spirit and it is in His “spiritual condition” that He interacts with humanity. Since His ascension, He has NEVER INTERACTED with humanity in His glorified, visible condition, ONLY in His spiritual, invisible condition.

And why should he? He has already accomplished what he came to accomplish by becoming man. He died once, for all, and redeemed all of mankind. His work here is finished. There is no reason at all that he should physically interact with us. However, we do believe that he physically as well as spiritually interacts with us sacramentally in the Eucharist

1. We can then conclude that the glorified body also retains a spiritual body too.

The glorified body is a spiritual body capable of interacting in the physical realm. We do not have two bodies.

1. So, we, on the Day of Resurrection will also be raised in our glorified bodies, and we will live happily ever after mingling with other glorified bodies. As glorified bodies, we too, will obviously, like Jesus, will retain our spiritual aspect too.

Yes, in a manner of speaking.

1. What is the purpose of our spirit/soul when we are raised as glorified bodies?

Because, as I have said repeatedly, a human being consists of both body and soul. A loaf of bread is made from flour, but not only flour. It must also contain yeast. If you don’t have both flour and yeast you don’t have a loaf of bread. If you don’t have both body and soul, you do not have a human being.

This is becoming like reincarnation, with respect…

Not at all. We die only once and after the resurrection we will never die again. It is the complete opposite of reincarnation where one dies and is reborn and dies again and is reborn and dies again… We do not become a different being but rather retain our identity.

 

[PRmerger]

Just reading the responses from PRMerger and Reuben regarding witnesses to the resurrection, and I see that you contradict each other.

Where is the contradiction between our views?

 

[daler]

Thanks, but no thanks, daler. I don’t have to reinvent the wheel. There is no need to repair what ain’t broken. Sometimes we search the whole world when what we are searching for is right at our own backyard. I am satisfied enough with what I have now and I hope I have explained them. You are welcome to address all or any aspect of what I have posted and I am more than glad to comply.

Reuben,
. I can’t tell for sure what you are responding to about “reinventing the wheel.” Was this addressing my question about the story of Moses and His staff?

. For me, my ongoing difficulty with accepting “face value” literal interpretation is that it genuinely rejects metaphorical understanding and intention in the writers of books, traditions, and the recording on ancient oral traditions.
. It is historically evident that most, if not all cultures, employ myth and metaphor in the telling of their tales and traditions, often intending moral truths to be conveyed in this process.
. Of all the cultures in the world which have long histories of mythical tales and metaphorical usage in their traditions, it does not appear logical to me that the Jewish people would not be among them.

. So if I may ask you, are you satisfied with the face value of Moses’ staff being turned into a literal snake which ate the other fellow’s snake, which was originally a staff?

. I mean no offense to your intelligence by asking this question. I am just wanting to know where you are coming from.

Thank you, daler

 

[daler]

Where is the contradiction between our views?

PR Good to see you again. I hope you have been well. Nice to see you back in the discussion. Did you bring any fireworks…

Also, as we have talked before about such things as the “miracle” of the loaves and fishes being in actuality Jesus teaching people how to widen their horizons and share what they have with strangers, recognizing that all people are brothers and sisters, and that the true “miracle” was not that He pulled loaves and fishes out of thin air, but elevated 5000 people to the station of the Good Samaritan, thus transforming social patterns.

So I would very much like to hear your thoughts pertaining to the “miracle” of Moses and His staff. Do take it literally, that He was a magician with the “power” to turn a stick into a snake? Are we to accept the basis of this story at “face value”? Or is it reasonable to assume it has an inner meaning, such as the one described, which infers that the “Staff of Truth” swallowed up the Staff of Ignorance and Folly.

Thank you very much for returning to the thread and I look forward to your response.

God Bless, always…

 

[PRmerger]

PR Good to see you again. I hope you have been well. Nice to see you back in the discussion. Did you bring any fireworks…

Also, as we have talked before about such things as the “miracle” of the loaves and fishes being in actuality Jesus teaching people how to widen their horizons and share what they have with strangers, recognizing that all people are brothers and sisters, and that the true “miracle” was not that He pulled loaves and fishes out of thin air, but elevated 5000 people to the station of the Good Samaritan, thus transforming social patterns.

There is no miracle in getting 5000 people to share.

That’s a natural event, prompted by rational discourse. It makes sense to share what you have with others.

Rather, a miracle is a supernatural event, in that Jesus transcended the natural laws of science and created something out of nothing. And, it pre-figures the Eucharist.

 

[PRmerger]

So I would very much like to hear your thoughts pertaining to the “miracle” of Moses and His staff. Do take it literally, that He was a magician with the “power” to turn a stick into a snake? Are we to accept the basis of this story at “face value”? Or is it reasonable to assume it has an inner meaning, such as the one described, which infers that the “Staff of Truth” swallowed up the Staff of Ignorance and Folly.

There is no need to create a dichotomy. The Catholic both/and is applicable here.

Although I take exception of the use of the word “magician” to Moses. He was given the supernatural power to convert a staff into a snake.

God Bless, always…

Right back at 'cha!

 

[Servant19]

You sound sincere but why do I have this feeling that you already knew the answer to this.

The writers of the New Testaments were first generation witnesses – they were either the apostles or their immediate disciples. Taking the authors at face value, two were apostles (Mathew and John) while the other two were disciples of the apostles (Mark and Luke). In any case none of the Gospel narrations were disputed by the other writers on the New Testament who were apostles (Peter and James) not counting John who also wrote a Gospel. So yes, they witnessed the resurrection and able to verified its truth. Paul is controversial especially to the Muslims and if one takes out Luke who was his disciples, you still have the three Gospel writers who were witnesses.

My first reaction to this is, “huh”? Then I realize where you come from and probably this is your religious concern. The answer to this depends on one’s perspective of what one think is the role of religion. I would see the two as separate issues in the line of Caesar and God. Yet the role of the Church (both the hierarchy and faithful) is to bring the God News to those who have not heard of them.

My answer to you is that the ultimate need of the world is to hear the God News and be converted. It is to seek the Lord and everything else will fall into place. No matter how good is governmental action, without belief in the Good News you will not have an ideal society.

People are hungry for God’s word and that is their real needs and necessity. The responsibility for this does not lie on the Catholic Church alone and a governmental hierarchy but also on all Christians. The sign for that is good – they make up of nearly a quarter of the world population and with the power of the media they can reach to the whole world.

But yet, the wheat must grow with the darnel until harvest time where they would be harvested. People are granted choice and the freedom of freewill. No amount of forced governmental action can change this freewill.

I hope what I say makes sense to you. Remind me if I am too vague and not specific enough.

Hi Reuben

Just a quick one.

Wouldn’t you say that the world would benefit from divine guidance on how to resolve this church vs state dichotomy and how we can live forever under the banner “The Kingdom is Gods”?

I think the purpose of religion is related strongly to creating a better world, otherwise why would there be such a strong emphasis on service, godly deeds, Good Samaritan type works etc etc?

If it was just about faith and reading the Word of God alone, it would be fruitless, right?