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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
The thing is, the bahai message is not the gospel of Jesus.
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daler
Guest
(continued)
As to the “Trumpet” Matthew 24:31 “And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet-blast, and they will bring together His own People to Him from north, south, east and west”
It is not an A flat or a B sharp from a bib bugle in the sky. Tell me. Is that what you think the Trumpet Blast is? Is it an actual trumpet? A horn?
Revelation 4:1
. "After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”
The Baha’is testify that indeed He has come in Glory. Baha means Glory. We have gathered from east, west, north, south and come to the Mountain of the Lord, where He has called us.
. In the Quran there are foretold Two Blasts on the Trumpet. The Bab and Baha’u’llah.
. In Revelation, there are “Three Woes” Muhammad, the Bab, and Baha’u’llah “For the third Woe cometh quickly”, that is, right after the 2nd Woe.
. As you pointed out, Jesus said “As the lightening cometh out of the east and goes to the west, so shall be the coming of the Son of Man” Baha’u’llah came out of the east and went to the west.
. Jesus referred us to Daniel the prophet. He had his vision in Elam (Persia) where both the Bab and Baha’u’llah came from. Then Baha’u’llah was exiled to the west, to what is now Israel, in Akka and came to Mt Carmel.
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daler
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Steve,
. When Jesus came 2000 years ago it took awhile for “all the world” to know, right? It was spread from one soul to the next over many centuries. The process “is” much faster now. Hey! We have the Internet…
. I think the problem remains one of interpretation and expectation. When we interpret all scripture “literally” problems arise. We wait for a big Trumpet to sound in the sky somewhere. Not gonna happen. The Trumpet is God’s Messenger.
. Is this unreasonable to assume?
. And that when God’s Messenger comes, like every other time in history, people will spread the word soul to soul until “the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord as the waters cover the sea…” Habakkuk 2:14
. Which, with a key phrase translated into Arabic becomes:
. “The earth will be filled with the knowledge of Baha’u’llah as the waters cover the sea…”
. “For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then He shall reward every man according to his works” Matt 16:27
. “For the Son of man shall come in Baha’u’llah with his angels; and then He shall reward every man according to his works” Matt 16:27
. To simply sit and deny, deny, deny doesn’t disprove anything. Many of us were deniers, too. We had the same literal expectations and interpretations to sort through, for we were raised in those same traditions.
. The Bible says “Seek, and ye shall find”. I testify that I sought and found Baha’u’llah to be the Promised One foretold by Jesus Himself. Thats all I can do: testify. Here’s another Baha’i brother killed for “testifying”. It is very short, with his photo. In this morning’s news.
news.bahai.org/story/965
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SteveVH
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SteveVH
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daler
Guest
Steve,
. No offense intended here, brother. The Catholic Church has been doing an incredible job of spreading the Gospel all over the world for the past 2000 years. I’m sorry that the quotes I referenced didn’t do credit to that. It was not intentional to leave out RCC.
. What was intended was to illustrate the fulfillment of Jesus prophecy:
“The Gospel shall be spread to all the nations.”
Clearly, the Gospel was not, for example, spread to North and South America until after Columbus arrived, right? And then it took a few more centuries. Lewis and Clark didn’t even travel through America until the 1800s.
The point being, that the “Mission Accomplished” was being proclaimed by these various groups in concert largely by the mid 1800s. That is all that I intended, simply to say, Check Off that one from your list of Matthew Chapter 24 as “Fulfilled”
There should be no offense taken in that, brother. None was intended, Ok?
God Bless
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SteveVH
Guest
Please stop stating that we take everything literally. Do you realize that the writings you quote were proclaimed the word of God by the Catholic Church because they accurately reflect the deposit of faith handed down by the Apostles? This is a Catholic book and therefore must be understood in light of Catholic understanding.Steve,
. When Jesus came 2000 years ago it took awhile for “all the world” to know, right? It was spread from one soul to the next over many centuries. The process “is” much faster now. Hey! We have the Internet…
. I think the problem remains one of interpretation and expectation. When we interpret all scripture “literally” problems arise. We wait for a big Trumpet to sound in the sky somewhere. Not gonna happen. The Trumpet is God’s Messenger.
There is a certain arrogance implicit in the Baha’i faith. By that I mean that it takes the holy books from all other religions and proclaims that those religions completely missed the mark as to their true meaning. It means that not even those who Jesus left in charge of his Church had a clue as to what he was saying. I can verify for you that Catholic teaching and doctrine has not changed from Apostolic times. If we are wrong, then they were wrong. And if they were wrong then Jesus was an abysmal teacher and poor communicator.
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Jcc1960
Guest
The new heaven and new earth have already been created by the Word of God, which is how all things were created. As with the original Creation, the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness does not comprehend it.
[John 1:1-5] IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. 4In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
The Word is of course, Christ, and that is of course true for the Return of Christ, if you accept Him.
As we are discussing the prophecies concerning the Return, one thing ought to be clear to an impartial observer. That is, the prophecies if taken literally are contradictory. He comes as a thief in the night, yet all eyes will see him. There will be great trumpet blasts, yet we must be watchful. These are not really contradictions, of course. All eyes will see Him, but it doesn’t say that they will simultaneously. They will eventually. The trumpet blasts are the great announcements made by he Bab.
There is I think a very profound truth at work here. The root of it is free will that God grants us. Religious truth, Revelation from God, even Salvation itself is never forced on anyone. If the Return and Judgement were to happen as most Christians imagine it, with massive obvious supernatural events happening all over the place, bodies coming up out of the graves, Jesus appearing in the sky, riding on the clouds, this would not be in accordance with free will, for people to decide to believe or not.
All religious teachings, and all miraculous events occur in such a way that people who have spiritual capacity, who are “of the living” will see and believe, and those who wish to turn away do so. For proof of that, read the Gospels. For all the miracles that Jesus performed, how is it that most people still didn’t believe? It is because the miracles were such that people who wished to give them a different interpretation, even thinking it was sorcery, could do so, at their own spiritual peril.
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daler
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. “The Bahá’í religion was listed in The Britannica Book of the Year (1992–present) as the second most widespread of the world’s independent religions in terms of the number of countries represented. According to Britannica, the Bahá’í Faith (as of 2002) is established in 247 countries and territories; represents over 2,100 ethnic, racial, and tribal groups; has scriptures translated into over 800 languages; and has an estimated seven million adherents worldwide. Additionally, Bahá’ís have self-organized in most of the nations of the world.”
Again: "Habakkuk 2:14 “For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord (Baha’u’llah), as the waters cover the sea.”
. This is another “Proof” which can be marked off in the “Fulfilled” column.
. He (Baha’u’llah) has gathered members of every nation, race, religion, culture, and class into the One Fold, of which He is their Shepherd. Yet another “Proof” in the “Fulfilled” column.
. The appearance of Jesus in the world was absolutely a supernatural event, yet His earthly body descended through the womb of Mary, a “natural” event. I think we are in harmony and agreement with you here, my friend…
. Steve, My apologies if I sounded rude or offensive. I talk with a lot of “very” literal Christians and fundamentalist and don’t exactly know what your own beliefs are, which sound considerably more reasonable than some of the extreme views held by some. Again, brother, my apologies for offending you.
… I will have to “continue” the remainder of your question. Thanks!
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daler
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Steve,
These events “have” occurred. They are very well documented in history:
The star fall of 1833 was a remarkable night on November 12, 1833 where much of the earth witnessed an incredible amount of falling stars. The American Journal of Science said they fell like snowflakes. Professor Olmstead, a mathematician at Yale University estimated 34,640 shooting stars per hour. The New York Journal of Commerce wrote that no philosopher or scholar has ever recorded an event like this. November 12 happens to be the birthday of Baha’u’llah, the prophet-founder of the Baha’i faith.
In period of 1843 and 1844, there appeared strange circles around the sun on three separate occasions. To this day nobody has a scientific answer for this happening.
In 1843, one year before the beginning of the Baha’i era, there appeared one of the greatest comets of history. It had a tail 108 million miles long and was so bright it could be seen in daylight. The American Journal of Science and The New York Tribune devoted special sections to this comet.
The Baha’i Faith has two prophets: one named the Bab (The Gate) and the other Baha’u’llah (The Glory of God), who immediately followed the Bab. The Double Star Theory, formulated by astronomers Hershal, Struve and Bessal, has some amazing coincidences with the events surrounding the lives of the two prophets of the Baha’i faith. In 1845, another great comet appeared, called Biela’s comet. At first it seemed ordinary but later it appeared to split in two. It put forth no tail while this alteration was going on. This comet later appeared in 1852 but the one half was barely visible. It is interesting that the dispensation of the Bab, who was martyred in 1850, was ending just as one part of the comet was fading. Also, the return of Bielas in 1852 happened in the same month and year that Baha’u’llah received His revelation. Another coincidence is that the comet of 1843 and the comet 1996 both appeared during the period of March 21, which is the spring equinox and the festival of Naw Ruz (Baha’i New Year)
Throughout history there have always been signs in the heavens associated with the coming of a new messenger from God. Scripture confirms this, telling of the star which warned Nimrod of Abraham’s coming, the star which the soothsayers pointed out to Pharaoh concerning Moses, the star of Bethlehem which made Herod fear Christ. These same stories have been told of Zoroaster, Buddha and Krishna. In the period from 1830 to 1860 there was an enormous upsurge in religious search and pursuit of the return of Christ. It is interesting to parallel this religious fervour with cosmic events such as the star fall of 1833, Biela’s comet, the parhelic circles around the sun (1843) or the binary star discovery.
PS When “the moon turned to blood”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_England’s_Dark_Day
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SteveVH
Guest
It means that he will come when we are not expecting him to come, not that he will sneak into the world without anyone seeing him. Indeed, all will see him, but many will not be ready. That is why we are told to be watchful, watchful of the state of our souls.
Will you please address the point that the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light and the stars will fall from the sky and the heavens will be shaken?
When Jesus returns, the time for using our free will to choose to either accept or reject the grace of God will have ended. The time for deciding to believe or not to believe will have passed. That is why we must be watchful and pay close attention. When Christ returns, it will be too late to say “Oh, now I believe”. So there is no contradiction whatsoever. There will be people who rejoice at his coming; those who are found in a state of grace. There will also be people who will cry out for the mountains to fall down on them rather than face judgment.
**"The resurrection of all the dead, "of both the just and the unjust,"will precede the Last Judgment. This will be "the hour when all who are in the tombs will hear [the Son of man’s] voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment."Then Christ will come “in his glory, and all the angels with him … Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left… and they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
1039 In the presence of Christ, who is Truth itself, the truth of each man’s relationship with God will be laid bare. The Last Judgment will reveal even to its furthest consequences the good each person has done or failed to do during his earthly life:"** (CCC par 1038-1039)
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daler
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Steve,
Forgive me if I don’t know what you take literally or not. Its hard for me, and others, to know. Sorry
I think it is very important, however, to view the consistency in the Bible where those to whom Prophecies were given simply “did not know” themselves. i.e.,
Daniel 12:4 and 9:
. “But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. And He said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.”
. Why would the Apostles know what Daniel did not know?
Revelation 5:1-9:
. “And I saw in the right hand of Him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.”
. Clearly, the Apostles did not know either. Do you disagree?
“But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the … day or that hour knoweth no one, not even the angels in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only…” Mark 13:32
Surely you do not believe that the Apostles knew more than Jesus, Daniel, and John, do you?
If this is discomforting, I can appreciate that. I was discomforted for many years.
… But here is the Baha’i position. That the “End” of Time as spoken of by Daniel, etc, was this period He spoke of so clearly and to which Christ refers us. “When ye see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the Holy Place.”
Where is the Holy Place? Mount Carmel, the “Mountain of the Lord”
Who has the power to “unseal” the Books? The Lord of Hosts, the Everlasting Father.
So as strange and challenging as it may have been for the Jews to accept that their promised Messiah had come, and continued to reject Him for 2000 years, it is the same thing happening now. The promised coming of the Lord of Hosts, the Everlasting Father, is being accepted by some and rejected by others.
www.reasontogether.com
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SteveVH
Guest
I would put very little stock into what these various groups have determined. The Catholic Church has been in every nation of the world for centuries, not just in the countries, but in each town in those countries. There are still some, such as China, where not everyone has been reached. The Church is severely persecuted there. It is outlawed in some Muslim countries where even possessing a Bible is a crime. So there is still much work to do and the Catholic Church has certainly not crossed it off of its list.
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SteveVH
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daler
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Well, the quote does not say every “person” on earth.
"And the Gospel shall be preached to all “nations”.
As to the Muslim countries, their “leaders”, the Ayatollahs and Mullahs, they shall be held accountable for their deeds, and misdeeds, and are among “the stars shall fall from heaven” who have failed in their duty towards God.
I know Baha’is in several Muslim countries where they would be killed or imprisoned if they were found out, or what books they had in their possession. My wife’s father was very lucky to get out of Iran in 1978 or 79. They burned his books at the airport, but at least let him leave the country. His wife and children were able to leave prior, going to England, and eventually the US. Shortly afterwards the Baha’is were no longer allowed to leave the country. Their house was taken from them, their savings, etc, etc. His sister, niece and nephew imprisoned and so forth.
To go against, or depart from the norm, is an act of faith, and one pays a very heavy price. It is “easy” for us to “believe” whatever we believe after the roads have already been paved with the blood of the followers of God’s religion, whatever chapter we’re on.
We are lucky, I suppose, but more than that, have a responsibility to adhere to the principals of our respective faiths according to our understanding. And when one or another comes along and says, I believe this or that, in the spirit of “Come, Let us reason together”, then that is what we are supposed to be doing as well.
In certain Muslim countries, that has become very difficult, whether for Jews, Hindus, Christians, or Baha’is. “Many shall fall by the edge of the sword” What is happening in Egypt now is very bad for the Coptic Christians, and for all of us, really. For we are all one people in the eyes of God. The suffering of one is the suffering of all.
“As ye do to the least of these ye do unto Me.”
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SteveVH
Guest
Ah, so now we are to read it literally. I see.
And here, my friend, we agree.
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daler
Guest
Steve,Ah, so now we are to read it literally. I see.
.
. May I ask you whether you take all of this literally, please?
“And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the breasts with a golden belt. His head and His hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and His eyes were as a flame of fire; and His feet like unto fine brass as if they burned in a furnace; and His voice as the sound of many waters. And He had in His right hand seven stars; and out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword; and His countenance was as the sun shines in his strength.” —Revelation 1:13-16.
. If I may ask. How would you interpret His coming if this was all you had to go on? Are you waiting for some One with eyes of fire, feet of brass, and a sword coming out of His mouth?
. I don’t think you are, but then we are left to discover what the metaphor is, are we not?
. So what does this verse mean to you?
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SteveVH
Guest
No, I would not take it literally because it was a vision and uses metaphor almost exclusively. And I would not interpret this specific passage without some very close guidance from Catholic theologians and historical teachings on the matter.
This is a completely different genre of writing than are the Gospels or the Epistles.
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PRmerger
Guest
It’s not that hard. Look to the Church, and she will tell you when and where God wants His Word to be understood in a literalist sense, when it must be understood as metaphorical, allegorical, symbolic, etc etc etc
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daler
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Steve, This is a good distinction you make. It does help me to better understand where you are coming from. So, thank you.
. I think part of me is wondering about the vision of Paul, and also the vision of Peter in Matthew 17:3
. "And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”…
. To Peter, the vision was so real that he offered to build three physical “Tabernacles”
… but as you say, a vision which uses metaphor is another matter. Many literalist fundamentalists think all these things are going to take place as described and shall be waiting forever…
. When in Daniel and in Revelation, the description of the One Who was to come:
“His eyes were as a flame of fire”, and “brass-like His feet”, and “out of His mouth goeth a two-edged sword.” Baha’u’llah states the following:
. “How could these words be literally interpreted? Were anyone to appear with all these signs, he would assuredly not be human. And how could any soul seek his company? Behold, then, the foolish ones of bygone times and those who, in this day, await the advent of such a being! Nor would they ever bear allegiance to him except that he appear in the aforementioned form. And as such a being will never appear, so too will they never believe.”
. He then goes on to interpret the vision:
. " The reference to “His eyes”… “alludes to the keenness of sight and acuteness of vision of the Promised One, Who with His eyes burns away every veil and covering, makes known the eternal mysteries in the contingent world, and distinguishes the faces that are obscured with the dust of hell form those with the light of paradise.”
Code:
As to "His feet" … "is meant His constancy upon hearing the call of God that commands Him: 'Be thou steadfast as thou hast been bidden'. He shall persevere in the Cause of God, and evince such firmness in the path of His might, that even if the powers of earth and heaven were to deny Him, He would not waver in the proclamation of His Cause, nor flee from His command in the promulgation of His Laws. Nay rather, He will stand as firm as the highest mountains and the loftiest peaks. He will remain immovable in His obedience to God and steadfast in revealing His Cause and proclaiming His Word… Hast thou ever seen in this world brass stronger, or blade sharper, or mountain more unyielding than this?"
And "Out of His mouth goeth a two-edged sword" … "Know thou that since the sword is an instrument that divides and cleaves asunder, and since there proceeds out of the mouth of the Prophets and Chosen Ones of God that which separates believer from non-believer and lover from the beloved, the term hath been so employed, and apart from this dividing and separating no other meaning is intended… What sword is sharper than this heavenly sword, what blade more trenchant than this incorruptible steel that severs every tie and separates believer from the infidel, father from son, brother from sister, and lover from beloved?"
"Nay, couldst thou but sharpen thy sight and refine thy heart, thou wouldst witness that all the material swords which in every day and age have slain the infidels and waged war against the impious proceed from this divine and invisible sword… Yet as these people have failed to acquire true knowledge from its source and wellspring… they have been veiled from that which God hath intended by those words and allusions and have remained confined within the prison of their own selves.". Similarly, as clouds obscure one’s vision, recognition of the Lord coming in the clouds has a spiritual meaning, as does the lion and the lamb lying down together. For men are clouded by reasonings and beliefs, unable to see Truth. What is meant in the latter is that antagonistic nations shall finally sit down together and resolve their differences peacefully, and this requires an International Conference, such as the Hague, the United Nations, etc, to actually come into fruition.
. Steve, do these interpretations conflict with your beliefs? If so, how?
Thank you, daler
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