Baha'i Returns Thread: Ask Any of Many Baha'i

[IgnatianPhilo]

If bahai believe Genesis to be but a symbolic account what can they say of Abraham? Do you not consider him a manifestation? Or this account to problematic, of a 100 year old or so man being blessed by God to have a child in his old age? Or Abraham being tested? I think there is a reasonable argument for the creation narratives of genesis to not be exactly literal, but the entire Old testament is built of the assumption that Abraham was given a promise by God and that God would fulfill this promise through Israel which was brought into egypt, brought out of egypt and would produce the messiah.

 

[arthra]

Steve wrote:

The Baha’i faith believes that the new heaven and new earth means that the messianic hope will be realized in our history under better government services and world courts and organizations like (God save us all) the United Nations. This describes pretty closely what the Church is talking about. Baha’u’llah was a man, born of human parents, who is now dead in the ground. He has glorified himself in place of the one, true Messiah.

My comment:

I do feel we can observe in the past few centuries and see some remarkable changes…

"But the fundamental principles laid down by Bahá’u’lláh are day by day spreading."

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha, p. 307

The principles that I mentioned before by Baha’u’llah such as the equality of men and women, establishing a world parliament, an international court of arbitration and establishing universal education are still crucial issues today…so the outline of these principles is like a blue print. I know many good Catholics who agree with these principles and praised be to God they are today uppermost in the world community…

So ushering in these values and principles will constitute a transformation of our social and spiritual lives…the one enforcing the other. this doesn’t take us farther away from the teachings of Jesus which implicitly were for peace and brotherhood … it gives them a greater possibility of being realized,

Abdul-Baha has basically summarized the principles in various places and this is a summary:

*First, it is incumbent upon all mankind to investigate truth. If such investigation be made, all should agree and be united, for truth or reality is not multiple; it is not divisible. The different religions have one truth underlying them; therefore, their reality is one.

The second principle or teaching of Bahá’u’lláh is the proclamation of the oneness of the world of humanity

The third teaching or principle of Bahá’u’lláh is that religion and science are in complete agreement.

The fourth principle or teaching of Bahá’u’lláh is the readjustment and equalization of the economic standards of mankind.

The fifth principle or teaching of Bahá’u’lláh is the abandoning of religious, racial, patriotic and political prejudices, which destroy the foundations of human society.

The sixth principle or teaching of Bahá’u’lláh concerns the equality of man and woman.

Among other teachings and principles Bahá’u’lláh counsels the education of all members of society. No individual should be denied or deprived of intellectual training, although each should receive according to capacity.

The national assemblies of each country and nation – that is to say parliaments – should elect two or three persons who are the choicest men of that nation, and are well informed concerning international laws and the relations between governments and aware of the essential needs of the world of humanity in this day.

A Supreme Tribunal shall be established by the peoples and Governments of every nation, composed of members elected from each country and Government. The members of this Great Council shall assemble in unity. All disputes of an international character shall be submitted to this Court, its work being to arrange by arbitration everything which otherwise would be a cause of war. The mission of this Tribunal would be to prevent war.

From the Writings:

O thou that hast remembered Me! The most grievous veil hath shut out the peoples of the earth from His glory, and hindered them from hearkening to His call. God grant that the light of unity may envelop the whole earth, and that the seal, “the Kingdom is God’s”, may be stamped upon the brow of all its peoples.

~ Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 11

The time foreordained unto the peoples and kindreds of the earth is now come. The promises of God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled. Out of Zion hath gone forth the Law of God, and Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof, are filled with the glory of His Revelation

~ Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 11

(we’re getting closer to that one thousand post limit for this thread!)
*

 

[PRmerger]

arthra, could you please answer this question: do you believe that being in the Presence of God is the highest station? It appears that you do, as you stated this here (bold mine):

And then are you of the position that there is a station higher than this “highest station”, since you are positing that the soul progresses?

Yes, or no?

Hiya, arthra.

Could you please respond to the above? Maybe I missed your response–if so, please direct me. Thanks.

 

[Servant19]

Okay here is what I think I learned here. Correct me if I am wrong.

Baha’i is God in your faith right? Now If I am right do you agree with our interpretation of the Trinity? If so is Bahai the Father the Son or the Holy Spirit?

I mean Jesus is God the Son. How do you put Baha’i in there. Or am I way off base in my understanding? Thanks for your kindness and patience in this.

Hi rinnie,

I have PM’d you and daler regarding what is essentially a terminological misunderstanding between Baha’i and Catholic theology on the Trinity.

I cannot see a difference between the two theologies.

Jesus is God, but NOT the Father
Baha’u’llah is also God, but not the Father.

Jesus and Baha’u’llah took on DIFFERENT human forms yet are begotten from the same substance as the Father

Before Abraham was, Jesus was
Before Abraham was, Baha’u’llah was.

Their Divinity resides in the same eternal plane of existence that is responsible for the creative forces of the Universe, from the beginning that has no beginning, till the ned that has no end.

So, although they were different PHYSICAL bodies at different eras of history, they were both ONE and the SAME in their eternal Divinity. Yet neither of them are one and the same as God the Father.

This is totally true in the Baha’i Writings too.

Hope that clears up both your to-ings and fro-ings

God bless YOU!

 

[daler]

…Now I am not sure the scripture you are speaking of but I think that is when the people refused to accept the words of Christ. Its not that they truly don’t hear him, they hear him alright but don’t want to.

Its like when you were a kid and your Mom said no,YOU don’t want to hear no. You don’t want to accept it.
…
Like the Jews indeed had the true word of God. But they choose to use it to their benefit not Gods.THat is why Jesus threw a fit. They were taking from the poor for their own wealth and using Gods word.

People pray for the wrong things sometimes, and forget God sometimes say no. And like a kid when you could not see your parents No it was for your own good. God will not give you something so you can destroy yourself.

That the works of the devil. He does have power people seem to deny. God gave it to him. Remember how God said to him you can have anything from Job but his free will.

Rinnie,
. I liked most of what you said in your post 947. It is good thoughts and principals which you have stated. Most definitely, while the Pharisees “heard” Jesus speak with their physical ears, they did not “hear” with their spiritual hearts, which were hardened, as you say, like a teenager, etc, who doesn’t really want to hear what his/her parents have to say, because “They can’t handle the truth.”

. I think that Jesus was bringing a big bright light into the room and the cockroaches started to run. Finally, the roaches got together and decided to kill the Light. But one cannot kill the Light itself, but only the Lamp in which it burns.

 

[daler]

Did you read my Post #895? Did you want me to respond to each quote you cited? I have responded in a general sense. It would be much easier to have a discussion if the posts were cut down to a point at a time. Long winded posts make it difficult to adequately respond. Is there a particular point you made that I have overlooked? If so, I will be happy to respond.

Steve,
. Yes, I read your post 895. I think you are referring to the Shekinah Glory, right?

. My sense of these descriptions and accounts is that they are describing in words a spiritual perception which, in one sense, is beyond earthly words. But they need to say it somehow, so they are describing a “cloud” for example, which I don’t think is a physical cloud as such.

. I agree with you that the long winded posts are not always the right course here. Sometimes somebody asks several questions in one post and it becomes very hard to address them all.

. Part of my need is to know what your own beliefs and understanding of certain verses and concepts are in order to address them, such as the New Heaven and New Earth. Do you see that as literally something that is supposed to happen? If so, please describe your understanding. Thanks

 

[daler]

If bahai believe Genesis to be but a symbolic account what can they say of Abraham? Do you not consider him a manifestation? Or this account to problematic, of a 100 year old or so man being blessed by God to have a child in his old age? Or Abraham being tested? I think there is a reasonable argument for the creation narratives of genesis to not be exactly literal, but the entire Old testament is built of the assumption that Abraham was given a promise by God and that God would fulfill this promise through Israel which was brought into egypt, brought out of egypt and would produce the messiah.

Ignatian, Please take the time to read this link from reb108 about the link between Abraham and Brahma:

viewzone.com/abrahamx.html

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Ignatian, Please take the time to read this link from reb108 about the link between Abraham and Brahma:

viewzone.com/abrahamx.html

I was responding to the notion of a particular bahai that genesis, all of it apparently (given the scoff at the idea of the accounts of the life of Elijah were disbelieved in as well, I think its okay to make the assumption) is a non literal account.

Also why are you linking to a site which supposes Abraham to be a figure contrived of various pagan sources? Do you accept the bible and quran? What are you trying to have me believe? That the ancient patriarch whom God gave a promise to is nothing but a collage of ancient myths? To be disregaurded? That may be your belief and the belief of certain scholars (the material on the site looks like its quite old but I could be wrong) but that is not what the divinely inspired scripture says.

Who is abraham that you call him a manifestation? What did he do that was of any importance? hmmm? Lets grant you assumption, Abraham didn’t exist. Why do you as a bahai claim pretensions as to tracing the lineage back to Abraham through David of your prophet Mirza hussain?

 

[Servant19]

Again, Ignatian is trying hard to frame the Baha’is to make claims which they never have.

To put the record straight, there is ZERO evidence, either implicitly or explicitly, in the Bahai Writings that state that Abraham did not exist.

Abraham existed and was the Father of Monotheism.

“One of those Who possessed this power and was assisted by it was Abraham. And the proof of it was that He was born in Mesopotamia, and of a family who were ignorant of the Oneness of God. He opposed His own nation and people, and even His own family, by rejecting all their gods. Alone and without help He resisted a powerful tribe, a task which is neither simple nor easy.” - Abdul-Baha

 

[arthra]

Regarding Abraham there are selections from the Writings:

That which thou hast heard concerning Abraham, the Friend of the All-Merciful, is the truth, and no doubt is there about it.

~ Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 75

*Behold how the people, as a result of the verdict pronounced by the divines of His age, have cast Abraham, the Friend of God, into fire; how Moses, He Who held converse with the Almighty, was denounced as liar and slanderer. Reflect how Jesus, the Spirit of God, was, notwithstanding His extreme meekness and perfect tender-heartedness, treated by His enemies.
*
~ Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 56

Oneness of the Manifestations:

In the Word of God there is still another unity, the oneness of the Manifestations of God, His Holiness Abraham, Moses, Jesus Christ, Muhammad, the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh. This is a unity divine, heavenly, radiant, merciful; the one reality appearing in its successive manifestations. For instance, the sun is one and the same but its points of dawning are various.

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith - p. 258

The lineage of Abraham:

Among the great prophets was His Holiness Abraham who being an iconoclast and a herald of the oneness of God, was banished from His native land. He founded a family upon which the blessing of God descended; and it was owing to this religious basis and ordination that the Abrahamic house progressed and advanced. Through the divine benediction, noteworthy and luminous prophets issued from the lineage of His Holiness. There appeared Isaac, Ishmael, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Aaron, David and Solomon. The Holy Land was conquered by the power of the Covenant of God with Abraham, and the glory of the Solomonic wisdom and sovereignty dawned. All this was due to the religion of God which this blessed lineage established and upheld. It is evident that throughout the history of Abraham and His posterity this was the source of their honor, advancement and civilization. Even today the descendants of His household and lineage are found throughout the world.

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith p. 270

 

[Servant19]

This quote provided by arthra is particularly pertinent:

“Behold how the people, as a result of the verdict pronounced by the divines of His age, have cast Abraham, the Friend of God, into fire; how Moses, He Who held converse with the Almighty, was denounced as liar and slanderer. Reflect how Jesus, the Spirit of God, was, notwithstanding His extreme meekness and perfect tender-heartedness, treated by His enemies.”

It has always been the clergy or divines of any age which have clouded the souls of men from recognizing God in each age, whether it was Jewish divines restraining people from believing the Word of Jesus, or the Muslim/Christian clergy restraining people from recognizing the Word of Baha’u’llah.

One question to ask is if the priests whom all Christians are in contact with are the source of so rigid an interpretation of the Bible being presented in this thread?

At no point would any Bahai claim that the followers of Baha’u’llah, no matter how holy, no matter how godly and saintly (and there were some outstanding ones trust me), have any rights to authoritatively interpret Baha’u’llahs Writings. Authoritative interpretation is reserved SOLELY to Him who was EXPLICITLY appointed to be as such, Abdul-Baha.

It’s the first time this has been done in religious history. All other exponents of interpretation, from whichever religion are open to error.

 

[SteveVH]

Steve wrote:

The Baha’i faith believes that the new heaven and new earth means that the messianic hope will be realized in our history under better government services and world courts and organizations like (God save us all) the United Nations. This describes pretty closely what the Church is talking about. Baha’u’llah was a man, born of human parents, who is now dead in the ground. He has glorified himself in place of the one, true Messiah.

My comment:

I do feel we can observe in the past few centuries and see some remarkable changes…

"But the fundamental principles laid down by Bahá’u’lláh are day by day spreading."

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha, p. 307

The principles that I mentioned before by Baha’u’llah such as the equality of men and women, establishing a world parliament, an international court of arbitration and establishing universal education are still crucial issues today…so the outline of these principles is like a blue print. I know many good Catholics who agree with these principles and praised be to God they are today uppermost in the world community…

So ushering in these values and principles will constitute a transformation of our social and spiritual lives…the one enforcing the other. this doesn’t take us farther away from the teachings of Jesus which implicitly were for peace and brotherhood … it gives them a greater possibility of being realized,

Abdul-Baha has basically summarized the principles in various places and this is a summary:

*First, it is incumbent upon all mankind to investigate truth. If such investigation be made, all should agree and be united, for truth or reality is not multiple; it is not divisible. The different religions have one truth underlying them; therefore, their reality is one.

The second principle or teaching of Bahá’u’lláh is the proclamation of the oneness of the world of humanity

The third teaching or principle of Bahá’u’lláh is that religion and science are in complete agreement.

The fourth principle or teaching of Bahá’u’lláh is the readjustment and equalization of the economic standards of mankind.

The fifth principle or teaching of Bahá’u’lláh is the abandoning of religious, racial, patriotic and political prejudices, which destroy the foundations of human society.

The sixth principle or teaching of Bahá’u’lláh concerns the equality of man and woman.

Among other teachings and principles Bahá’u’lláh counsels the education of all members of society. No individual should be denied or deprived of intellectual training, although each should receive according to capacity.

The national assemblies of each country and nation – that is to say parliaments – should elect two or three persons who are the choicest men of that nation, and are well informed concerning international laws and the relations between governments and aware of the essential needs of the world of humanity in this day.

A Supreme Tribunal shall be established by the peoples and Governments of every nation, composed of members elected from each country and Government. The members of this Great Council shall assemble in unity. All disputes of an international character shall be submitted to this Court, its work being to arrange by arbitration everything which otherwise would be a cause of war. The mission of this Tribunal would be to prevent war.

From the Writings:

O thou that hast remembered Me! The most grievous veil hath shut out the peoples of the earth from His glory, and hindered them from hearkening to His call. God grant that the light of unity may envelop the whole earth, and that the seal, “the Kingdom is God’s”, may be stamped upon the brow of all its peoples.

~ Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 11

The time foreordained unto the peoples and kindreds of the earth is now come. The promises of God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled. Out of Zion hath gone forth the Law of God, and Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof, are filled with the glory of His Revelation

~ Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 11

(we’re getting closer to that one thousand post limit for this thread!)*

I rest my case.

 

[PRmerger]

I rest my case.

'zactly. :yup:

QED.

 

[SteveVH]

Steve,
. Yes, I read your post 895. I think you are referring to the Shekinah Glory, right?

. My sense of these descriptions and accounts is that they are describing in words a spiritual perception which, in one sense, is beyond earthly words. But they need to say it somehow, so they are describing a “cloud” for example, which I don’t think is a physical cloud as such.

. I agree with you that the long winded posts are not always the right course here. Sometimes somebody asks several questions in one post and it becomes very hard to address them all.

. Part of my need is to know what your own beliefs and understanding of certain verses and concepts are in order to address them, such as the New Heaven and New Earth. Do you see that as literally something that is supposed to happen? If so, please describe your understanding. Thanks

Yes, I believe that we will literally have a new heaven and a new earth when we reach the end of this age. The kingdom will not fulfilled in human history, by human institutions or by any man, but only after the final judgment which is God’s triumph over evil.

You must understand that sin brought death, sickness and decay to all of creation. It was not so in the beginning. God will restore what he created in the beginning; a world free from evil and injustice and death and decay and He will once again rule over us through his Son who will return in glory.

I cannot tell you what this new heaven and new earth will be like. It is beyond our human experience. But Jesus preached the final judgment and told us what would precede it. He knew that there would be many false prophets who would promise salvation through human efforts (i.e. a world parliament, an international court of arbitration and establishing universal education), thereby denying Christ as Lord of eternal life and true Redeemer of the world.

I will state most emphatically that the Baha’i idea of a new heaven and a new earth is exactly what we have been warned against believing. As I have said before, there will be no doubt, no debate as to whether or not Christ has come again. This will be the end of human history which has been embroiled in a battle between good and evil. The time for choosing who we will follow is now, while we are in the battle. We cannot change sides after the battle. Those who have chosen Christ will gain eternal life. Those who have rejected him, eternal darkness; spiritual death.

 

[SteveVH]

It has always been the clergy or divines of any age which have clouded the souls of men from recognizing God in each age, whether it was Jewish divines restraining people from believing the Word of Jesus, or the Muslim/Christian clergy restraining people from recognizing the Word of Baha’u’llah.

Or the words of Baha’ullah clouding the minds and souls of its followers by turning their gaze away from Christ toward a mere human being, now dead in the ground, who promises to save them through human institutions.

One question to ask is if the priests whom all Christians are in contact with are the source of so rigid an interpretation of the Bible being presented in this thread?

At no point would any Bahai claim that the followers of Baha’u’llah, no matter how holy, no matter how godly and saintly (and there were some outstanding ones trust me), have any rights to authoritatively interpret Baha’u’llahs Writings. Authoritative interpretation is reserved SOLELY to Him who was EXPLICITLY appointed to be as such, Abdul-Baha.

You mean you blindly follow whatever interpretation comes from Abdul-Baha? Hmmm… I seem to remember being taken to task on this very idea being applied to Catholics.

The interpretation of Christian Tradition and Scripture is reserved SOLELY to the Magisterium of the Catholic Church in communion with the Pope who was EXPLICITY given the keys to the kingdom of heaven and the power to bind and loose by Jesus Christ himself.

 

[SteveVH]

May I just ask what the Baha’i notion of heaven is? And please, just in your own words without 20 quotes from the writings of Baha’u’llah. What have you learned personally?

Thank you.

 

[arthra]

Steve wrote above…

I will state most emphatically that the Baha’i idea of a new heaven and a new earth is exactly what we have been warned against believing. As I have said before, there will be no doubt, no debate as to whether or not Christ has come again. This will be the end of human history which has been embroiled in a battle between good and evil. The time for choosing who we will follow is now, while we are in the battle. We cannot change sides after the battle. Those who have chosen Christ will gain eternal life. Those who have rejected him, eternal darkness; spiritual death.

My comment:

Steve… this thread may be concluded shortly but I wanted you to know I respect your beliefs… I would ask you though to step back a minute and consider what your perspectives are and what their ramifications are in general…

(1) Suggesting that the very principles that could bring about a better world to live in should be “warned against believing”;

(2) The end of human history;

(3) eternal darkness…

Seems to me a very negative course to take.

As long as we’re here on the planet with our humanity I think we are asked to alleviate suffering and improve the lot of people… I think scripture supports that and of course the Baha’i writings support it;

As to eternal darkness again that offers little hope to the general population who do not not agree with you…

 

[SteveVH]

Steve wrote above…

I will state most emphatically that the Baha’i idea of a new heaven and a new earth is exactly what we have been warned against believing. As I have said before, there will be no doubt, no debate as to whether or not Christ has come again. This will be the end of human history which has been embroiled in a battle between good and evil. The time for choosing who we will follow is now, while we are in the battle. We cannot change sides after the battle. Those who have chosen Christ will gain eternal life. Those who have rejected him, eternal darkness; spiritual death.

My comment:

Steve… this thread may be concluded shortly but I wanted you to know I respect your beliefs… I would ask you though to step back a minute and consider what your perspectives are and what their ramifications are in general…

(1) Suggesting that the very principles that could bring about a better world to live in should be “warned against believing”

You don’t understand. To believe that our ultimate eternal destiny would lie in the hands of human institutions and that it is by this means that we will have a new heaven and a new earth is erroneous. As to doing everything we can to eliminate human suffering, injustice and ignorance in this age, the Catholic Church has been at the forefront. But our ultimate eternal destiny lies in the victory of Christ over evil which will forever change the human condition.

(2) The end of human history;

Yes. Human history is salvation history which is fulfilled in the final victory of Christ over evil. The war will be over. We will live once again under the reign of God where every tear will be wiped away. Evil will be no more.

(3) eternal darkness…

Seems to me a very negative course to take.

You bet it is a negative course to take. I would not recommend it. Give your life to Christ instead.

As long as we’re here on the planet with our humanity I think we are asked to alleviate suffering and improve the lot of people… I think scripture supports that and of course the Baha’i writings support it;

As I have stated, the Catholic Church has relieved more suffering in the world than any other institution. But human beings cannot do away with the evil who roams the earth seeking whom he may devour. Only Christ can do that.

As to eternal darkness again that offers little hope to the general population who do not not agree with you…

Well, the purpose of the Church is not to make everyone feel good about how they are living their lives. In fact, we want to make people a little uncomfortable that they may turn away from sin and false prophets and focus their gaze on the merciful Christ. Our hope is in Jesus Christ alone and that is the hope we bring to the world. There is no hope for those who reject Christ and follow another. One will be taken, one left behind. Who are you going to choose? Baha’u’llah, who is dead in the ground, or the risen Christ?

 

[Servant19]

Well lucky for Baha’is that there is absolutely no rejection of Christ whatsoever.

Turning it around now, Catholics have an opportunity to contribute towards the building of the Kingdom of God on earth, via divinely inspired institutions, (not man made ones) inspired solely by the Holy Spirit working through them.

Catholics have the chance to contribute their “works” towards a sustainable END to suffering. They have a chance to NOT reject Christ but fulfil their mission on earth by aligning their “works” (isn’t being a Christian about faith AND works?) with the desires and Will of God FOR TODAY, not the works which were intended for 2000 years ago.

As I have pointed out, charities around the world HAVE FAILED, they are patronizing and paternalistic, and the world is the same today in terms of poverty etc as it was for centuries since “charitable works” began.

Baha’is have nothing to fear, WE LOVE JESUS, and we are doing EXACTLY what He wants of us. Catholics choose to continue the “works” of yesteryear.

The choice is totally yours

 

[Servant19]

Just one other thing Steve, with respect, there is absolutely no evidence that you can give that Jesus is NOT buried in the ground.

I am, however, totally convinced that both Jesus and Baha’u’llah (as a single Divine Entity) are very much ALIVE, and are “there” in every single decision that is made by those so called man made institutions that you have demeaned Bahai institutions to be.

Were you to ever be invited to attend to meet a local Bahai institution, you would be spiritualized with the sense of reverence and sanctity that is present in their meetings, to such a degree that you would be certain that Jesus Himself was present in that meeting.

And that’s just at local institutions. I have never been invited to a meeting of the Universal House of Justice, but I have never seen any “man-made” institution that has for its entire 50 year history, meeting on a daily basis, composed of 9 members having NOT ONCE made any decision that has not been totally unanimous.

THAT, my friend is itself a MIRACLE of Baha’u’llahs Kingdom of God on earth

God bless you