M
MartinJordan
Guest
However, Jesus also was a Jew (grew up according to the laws) and the Jews obviously knew what he meant. Whether they accepted his words and works was another thing.
MJ
- Status
MJ
S
Servant19
Guest
All very pertinent questions JCC 
Another question to ask is that in post #15 Steve, you write that "we are dealing with the SUPERnatural, which we cannot understand.
A question to add therefore is:
What is the difference between supernatural and spiritual?
Another question to ask is that in post #15 Steve, you write that "we are dealing with the SUPERnatural, which we cannot understand.
A question to add therefore is:
What is the difference between supernatural and spiritual?
S
Servant19
Guest
…and Baha’u’llah stated that He was the unique “Glory of the Father”
…so where does this leave your thoughts Ignatian?
(since it seems you are having a competition)
I acknowledge and cherish your thoughts that the Son of God is a unique station, and I share in that uniqueness (He truly was unique in so many ways), yet the uniqueness of a Rose in bloom this spring, does not mean that an equally unique and beautiful, (or even more beautiful) Rose cannot bloom next spring…
Isn’t it beautiful that we have such beautiful physical realities to express the truth behind spiritual realities?
D
daler
Guest
We love these Beautiful Mirrors which God sends to us to reflect His Beauty. Sometimes we fall in love with a particular Mirror that we forget the Divine Purpose of that Mirror, which is to draw us away from ourselves and closer to God.
We are saddened at the harsh treatment of these Mirrors, saying, look how much this One suffered, or that One. We inherit traditions praising some Mirrors and not praising others, or holding Them as high as our favorite Mirror. Yet Their Purpose is the same Purpose. Who are we to say that religion is about the worship of the Mirror, whether this One or that, rather than the worship of God, Who has fashioned each one of Them for us as a means to receive His Light?
. “These sanctified Mirrors, these Day Springs of ancient glory, are, one and all, the Exponents on earth of Him Who is the central Orb of the universe, its Essence and ultimate Purpose. From Him proceed their knowledge and power; from Him is derived their sovereignty. The beauty of their countenance is but a reflection of His image, and their revelation a sign of His deathless glory. They are the Treasuries of Divine knowledge, and the Repositories of celestial wisdom. Through them is transmitted a grace that is infinite, and by them is revealed the Light that can never fade…These Tabernacles of Holiness, these Primal Mirrors which reflect the light of unfading glory, are but expressions of Him Who is the Invisible of the Invisibles. By the revelation of these Gems of Divine virtue all the names and attributes of God, such as knowledge and power, sovereignty and dominion, mercy and wisdom, glory, bounty, and grace, are made manifest.”
S
SteveVH
Guest
Heaven is a state of being and the only thing we can be sure of is that no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor mind conceived of what God has planned for those who love Him.
Scripture tells us that there will be a new heaven and a new earth:
“Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away…” (Rev 21:1)
All of creation will be changed. What that will be like we don’t know, but we do know that it will be eternal and therefore will never end. We certainly won’t be worried about the sun burning out. The Son of God will be our light.
Again, heaven is not a place but rather a state of being; a state of complete oneness with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as His adopted sons and daughters. Space and time will no longer exist as we will live in eternity. As for our nature we will have a body like Christ, a spiritual body, but a human spiritual body as opposed to an angelic spiritual body. We will retain our individual identities and will be forever human, just in a glorified state. We will be what God created us to ultimately be. He never desired for us to be separate, but rather part of his family.
I have no idea. It’s fun to wonder, but that’s all we are really doing. Heaven is beyond human expression, not to mention neither of us have been there, so it is difficult to say. We only have our limited, finite mind with which to imagine the infinite and eternal glory of God.
When we are resurrected we will be in heaven. Our relationships will be more intimate than anything we can imagine on this earth. Marriage is a foreshadowing of our relationship with God. There is no purpose for marriage in heaven, except for the marriage of the Lamb with his Bride, the Church of which everyone in heaven is a part.
Questions such as these are meaningless in light of the great mystery of God and the heaven he has planned for us. They simply don’t matter. Whatever happens to us, in whatever state in which we find ourselves, we will be purified and perfected. There will be no age in heaven, as if we are somehow frozen forever at the age at which we die. We cannot think of heaven in human terms.
“Heaven is the ultimate end and fulfillment of the deepest human longings, the state of supreme, definitive happiness” (CCC par 1024).
I
IgnatianPhilo
Guest
It’s meaningless to say he is unique when you refuse to qualify that statement, you would not accept Christ as being greater than Moses, the greatest of all, judge of all humanity, creator of everything that began to exist and etc, the one to whom everything is concentrated through. You would apply all those things equally to Mirza Hussain and the other manifestations which simply cannot be the case because the New testament doesn’t teach this about Moses.
Hebrews makes this point better than I ever could .
Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, whom we acknowledge as our apostle and high priest. He was faithful to the one who appointed him, just as Moses was faithful in all God’s house. Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself. For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything. “Moses was faithful as a servant in all God’s house,”[a] bearing witness to what would be spoken by God in the future. But Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory.
If the bahai doctrine is right it could never be said that Christ was worthy of Moses, for Moses should have been equal to Christ.
S
Servant19
Guest
Actually the Bahai Faith acknowledges the different intensities of Revelation, and the different Messages that the Revelation pursues.
The exact quote is not memorized I’m afraid so can’t get it for you, but I’m certain someone else here will, but the passage essentially talks about the sun and how it provides light at the beginning of the day at dawn, GRADUALLY providing sustenance to life on earth, and as it rises and ascends the horizon it increases in intensity.
The same can be said about the same Sun of Truth providing spiritual sustenance to mankind GRADUALLY, through the differing Manifestations of God.
Though they are the same Sun, the INTENSITY of their light differs and gradually increases.
In that sense Jesus can easily be called the builder of the house while Moses was the house itself…they established different things and because Moses’ Sun had advanced His people to a certain extent, Jesus’ Sun needed to advance the world further still, hence a tremendous thrust in intensity in Jesus’ Sun, yet the Sun was the same Sun…different intensity that’s all…
Problem solved my friend
The exact quote is not memorized I’m afraid so can’t get it for you, but I’m certain someone else here will, but the passage essentially talks about the sun and how it provides light at the beginning of the day at dawn, GRADUALLY providing sustenance to life on earth, and as it rises and ascends the horizon it increases in intensity.
The same can be said about the same Sun of Truth providing spiritual sustenance to mankind GRADUALLY, through the differing Manifestations of God.
Though they are the same Sun, the INTENSITY of their light differs and gradually increases.
In that sense Jesus can easily be called the builder of the house while Moses was the house itself…they established different things and because Moses’ Sun had advanced His people to a certain extent, Jesus’ Sun needed to advance the world further still, hence a tremendous thrust in intensity in Jesus’ Sun, yet the Sun was the same Sun…different intensity that’s all…
Problem solved my friend
S
Servant19
Guest
Thankyou Steve for your comprehensive thoughts.
If I may, what is the difference between an angelic spiritual body and a glorified spiritual body?
Do you have any references for an angelic spiritual body from the Bible, please?
Also, what is the difference between supernatural and spiritual? And if there is a difference, what is the referential source for this differentiation?
THANKYOU
A
arthra
Guest
Steve wrote above:
The reading of the Scriptures should change the way we live our lives as we apply the principles found there.
Baha’is would certainly agree with that statement!
The reading of the Scriptures should change the way we live our lives as we apply the principles found there.
Baha’is would certainly agree with that statement!
I
IgnatianPhilo
Guest
Can you say Jesus is the greatest by which all are made that are made, to whom all honour, glory and worship and respect is due to? Can you say is the end all of all existence? And do not reinterpret my words into something that is more to your liking, you know what I mean, please address what I mean.Actually the Bahai Faith acknowledges the different intensities of Revelation, and the different Messages that the Revelation pursues.
The exact quote is not memorized I’m afraid so can’t get it for you, but I’m certain someone else here will, but the passage essentially talks about the sun and how it provides light at the beginning of the day at dawn, GRADUALLY providing sustenance to life on earth, and as it rises and ascends the horizon it increases in intensity.
The same can be said about the same Sun of Truth providing spiritual sustenance to mankind GRADUALLY, through the differing Manifestations of God.
Though they are the same Sun, the INTENSITY of their light differs and gradually increases.
In that sense Jesus can easily be called the builder of the house while Moses was the house itself…they established different things and because Moses’ Sun had advanced His people to a certain extent, Jesus’ Sun needed to advance the world further still, hence a tremendous thrust in intensity in Jesus’ Sun, yet the Sun was the same Sun…different intensity that’s all…
Problem solved my friend
S
Servant19
Guest
If you are talking about the Divinity of Jesus, then yes, I can
Obviously the human Jesus was a carpenter…
Carry on…
Obviously the human Jesus was a carpenter…
Carry on…
S
Servant19
Guest
Dear friends, now that we have established that the Divinity of Jesus is capable of this:
If we step back a little, we see, in Jesus a sacrifice that eliminates the sins of all of us as individuals. We now see, in Baha’u’llah, a sacrifice that eliminates the sins of the earth, as a COLLECTIVE body of people.
The phrases:
“So powerful is the light of unity, that it can illuminate the whole world”, and
“Ye are the fruits of one tree and the leaves of one branch”
are the hallmarks of Baha’u’llahs Revelation and the foundation for a systematic rolling out of educating the world to not just know about, but to LIVE, this reality, this new found consciousness has been laid down. Is this reflective of Jesus’ Divinity, Baha’u’llahs Divinity?
We see now a fresh breeze of confirmation wafting upon our collective faces, contributing towards the allegorical “shrinking” of the world. Communication, transport, medicine, information and knowledge, all have advanced more than at any time in human history. These things have allowed cultures to mix, knowledge to be exchanged and understanding developed that we are truly one human family. Is this reflective of Jesus’ Divinity, Baha’u’llahs Divinity?
We see upon the world a community that embraces ALL people’s,without pressure to “convert” to engage in the process of community transformation and sustainable advancement, both material and spiritual advancement, for it is the deeds, not the “labels” that identify us in the sight of God. Is this reflective of Jesus’ Divinity, Baha’u’llahs Divinity?
Friends, the fruits of Jesus’ Divinity are upon us, what harm is there to see?
I can truly put hand on heart and tell you that as a Bahai of 24 years, I have yet to see anything but love, spirit and joyful radiance from the Bahai community. At the same time a strong resolve, persistent determination to develop the Kingdom of God on earth.
The Bahai Faith is not asking for adherents, it’s simply asking for community builders, those who are willing to shed the lethargies which a materialistic society has imposed on them, and educate themselves on some simple Bahai principles which have proven to advance communities on a global scale, and action those principles with other like-minded individuals within their communities.
Is this a reflection of Jesus’ Divinity?
Why would we limit this Divinity and exclude the possibility of It becoming Flesh again?
If we step back a little, we see, in Jesus a sacrifice that eliminates the sins of all of us as individuals. We now see, in Baha’u’llah, a sacrifice that eliminates the sins of the earth, as a COLLECTIVE body of people.
The phrases:
“So powerful is the light of unity, that it can illuminate the whole world”, and
“Ye are the fruits of one tree and the leaves of one branch”
are the hallmarks of Baha’u’llahs Revelation and the foundation for a systematic rolling out of educating the world to not just know about, but to LIVE, this reality, this new found consciousness has been laid down. Is this reflective of Jesus’ Divinity, Baha’u’llahs Divinity?
We see now a fresh breeze of confirmation wafting upon our collective faces, contributing towards the allegorical “shrinking” of the world. Communication, transport, medicine, information and knowledge, all have advanced more than at any time in human history. These things have allowed cultures to mix, knowledge to be exchanged and understanding developed that we are truly one human family. Is this reflective of Jesus’ Divinity, Baha’u’llahs Divinity?
We see upon the world a community that embraces ALL people’s,without pressure to “convert” to engage in the process of community transformation and sustainable advancement, both material and spiritual advancement, for it is the deeds, not the “labels” that identify us in the sight of God. Is this reflective of Jesus’ Divinity, Baha’u’llahs Divinity?
Friends, the fruits of Jesus’ Divinity are upon us, what harm is there to see?
I can truly put hand on heart and tell you that as a Bahai of 24 years, I have yet to see anything but love, spirit and joyful radiance from the Bahai community. At the same time a strong resolve, persistent determination to develop the Kingdom of God on earth.
The Bahai Faith is not asking for adherents, it’s simply asking for community builders, those who are willing to shed the lethargies which a materialistic society has imposed on them, and educate themselves on some simple Bahai principles which have proven to advance communities on a global scale, and action those principles with other like-minded individuals within their communities.
Is this a reflection of Jesus’ Divinity?
J
Jcc1960
Guest
Steve,
Thanks for responding to my questions. I have some comments.
Maybe the answer is just as you say, it is a human spiritual body as opposed to an angelic one. Baha’u’llah teaches that we retain our human individuality, recognize and interact with other humans in the next world, we do not turn into angels, which are different spiritual beings. That implies that the true nature of humans is spiritual, and glorified, that is how God created us to be. so there is really no difference with what Christ taught.
If it is really heaven and has no similarity to earth, why call it earth?
Our earthly existence involves birth, growth, learning and developing. What is bad about any of that? And when we live a good life and we pass it on to future generations, there is nothing bad about that either, especially since our destiny is reunion with God and eternal life.
Consider this: The Catholic Church teaches the sanctity of life. I would say there is even an obligation to marry and have children, unless you have a vocation to celibacy, is that a fair statement? So how can you imagine a future where there are no more babies, no additional humans, a fixed number for the rest of eternity?
May God bless you.
Thanks for responding to my questions. I have some comments.
Baha’u’llah’s teachings are completely in agreement with this, in fact it is nearly a direct quote of some of His writings.
To say a “new heaven and a new earth” pretty much implies that everything will have changed. But since you say we don’t know what it will be like, how can you say for sure that it is not as Baha’u’llah teaches? That is, the prophecy means there will be a new Revelation from God (heaven) and a new religion for mankind (earth),
We agree that heaven is not a place, and not limited by space and time, whereas our physical body is limited by space and time, would you agree with that? But the question remains, what is the difference between a spiritual body and a spirit? The New Testament seems to make that distinction, and certainly the Church teaches that.
Maybe the answer is just as you say, it is a human spiritual body as opposed to an angelic one. Baha’u’llah teaches that we retain our human individuality, recognize and interact with other humans in the next world, we do not turn into angels, which are different spiritual beings. That implies that the true nature of humans is spiritual, and glorified, that is how God created us to be. so there is really no difference with what Christ taught.
I completely agree with you here.
I agree that there is no marriage in heaven, but what about on “earth as it is in heaven?”
If it is really heaven and has no similarity to earth, why call it earth?
Our earthly existence involves birth, growth, learning and developing. What is bad about any of that? And when we live a good life and we pass it on to future generations, there is nothing bad about that either, especially since our destiny is reunion with God and eternal life.
Consider this: The Catholic Church teaches the sanctity of life. I would say there is even an obligation to marry and have children, unless you have a vocation to celibacy, is that a fair statement? So how can you imagine a future where there are no more babies, no additional humans, a fixed number for the rest of eternity?
I don’t believe that these questions are meaningless. There are great mysteries that we will never understand, and some that will be answered after we leave this life, but if we don’t examine the beliefs that can be understood, we are not living up to our potential as humans, with both spirit and mind as God created us.
May God bless you.
D
daler
Guest
. The Revelation, of which Bahá’u’lláh is the source and center, abrogates none of the religions that have preceded it, nor does it attempt, in the slightest degree, to distort their features or to belittle their value. It disclaims any intention of dwarfing any of the Prophets of the past, or of whittling down the eternal verity of their teachings. It can, in no wise, conflict with the spirit that animates their claims, nor does it seek to undermine the basis of any man’s allegiance to their cause. Its declared, its primary purpose is to enable every adherent of these Faiths to obtain a fuller understanding of the religion with which he stands identified, and to acquire a clearer apprehension of its purpose. It is neither eclectic in the presentation of its truths, nor arrogant in the affirmation of its claims. Its teachings revolve around the fundamental principle that religious truth is not absolute but relative, that Divine Revelation is progressive, not final. Unequivocally and without the least reservation it proclaims all established religions to be divine in origin, identical in their aims, complementary in their functions, continuous in their purpose, indispensable in their value to mankind.
“All the Prophets of God abide in the same tabernacle, soar in the same heaven, are seated upon the same throne, utter the same speech, and proclaim the same Faith.”
From the “beginning that hath no beginning,” these Exponents of the Unity of God and Channels of His incessant utterance have shed the light of the invisible Beauty upon mankind, and will continue, to the “end that hath no end,” to vouchsafe fresh revelations of His might and additional experiences of His inconceivable glory. To contend that any particular religion is final, that “all Revelation is ended, that the portals of Divine mercy are closed, that from the daysprings of eternal holiness no sun shall rise again, that the ocean of everlasting bounty is forever stilled, and that out of the Tabernacle of ancient glory the Messengers of God have ceased to be made manifest” would indeed be nothing less than sheer blasphemy.
. “They differ only in the intensity of their revelation and the comparative potency of their light.”
And this, not by reason of any inherent incapacity of any one of them to reveal in a fuller measure the glory of the Message with which He has been entrusted, but rather because of the immaturity and unpreparedness of the age He lived in to apprehend and absorb the full potentialities latent in that Faith.
. “Know of a certainty that in every Dispensation the light of Divine Revelation has been vouchsafed to men in direct proportion to their spiritual capacity. Consider the sun. How feeble its rays the moment it appears above the horizon. How gradually its warmth and potency increase as it approaches its zenith, enabling meanwhile all created things to adapt themselves to the growing intensity of its light. How steadily it declines until it reaches its setting point. Were it, all of a sudden, to manifest the energies latent within it, it would, no doubt, cause injury to all created things….
In like manner, if the Sun of Truth were suddenly to reveal, at the earliest stages of its manifestation, the full measure of the potencies which the providence of the Almighty has bestowed upon it, the earth of human understanding would waste away and be consumed; for men’s hearts would neither sustain the intensity of its revelation, nor be able to mirror forth the radiance of its light. Dismayed and overpowered, they would cease to exist.”
It is for this reason, and this reason only, that those who have recognized the Light of God in this age, claim no finality for the Revelation with which they stand identified, nor arrogate to the Faith they have embraced powers and attributes intrinsically superior to, or essentially different from, those which have characterized any of the religious systems that preceded it.
from Shoghi Effendi
I
IgnatianPhilo
Guest
I am talking about the eternal person of Jesus Christ. Now unless bahai think there is one manifestation, one eternal person who incarnates himself in different periods of history who perfectly reflects God your answers make no sense. Is that the case?
My central point of Jesus being the greatest is being avoided. My question to you Bahai is Jesus greater than Abraham, MOses, Muhammad and Mirza hussain (though the last two do not belong in a list with Abraham and Moses) ? Is Jesus the end all and be all of all that exists? To whom honour eternal is due to? I would like a clear answer not these attempts to answer around me.
For if you truely claim not to abrogate what has come you must accept that Christ is the greatest, he is God, to be worshipped, he only saved all humanity from itself, born of a virgin and rose again. But its not true that bahai don’t abrogate what has come before, they do it all the time when they deny Jesus as God (and do not claim he was divine I know you mean something else by that, that you do not consider JEsus of Nazereth God, you know what I mean in all of this, so please do not attempt to escape what I mean by redefining words to your liking).
My central point of Jesus being the greatest is being avoided. My question to you Bahai is Jesus greater than Abraham, MOses, Muhammad and Mirza hussain (though the last two do not belong in a list with Abraham and Moses) ? Is Jesus the end all and be all of all that exists? To whom honour eternal is due to? I would like a clear answer not these attempts to answer around me.
For if you truely claim not to abrogate what has come you must accept that Christ is the greatest, he is God, to be worshipped, he only saved all humanity from itself, born of a virgin and rose again. But its not true that bahai don’t abrogate what has come before, they do it all the time when they deny Jesus as God (and do not claim he was divine I know you mean something else by that, that you do not consider JEsus of Nazereth God, you know what I mean in all of this, so please do not attempt to escape what I mean by redefining words to your liking).
S
Servant19
Guest
No Ignatian, Baha’is deny that Jesus is the Father…thats it…
Baha’is accept that Jesus shares the same substance as the Father…
IS that clear enough for you…
Come on, Ignatian, you come across as so cold hearted when you keep insisting to call Baha’u’llah as Mirza Hussayn and deny He is anything. Where is the “little child” that Jesus asked for?
Has Baha’u’llah done so much harm to you to create such anger?
Baha’is accept that Jesus shares the same substance as the Father…
IS that clear enough for you…
Come on, Ignatian, you come across as so cold hearted when you keep insisting to call Baha’u’llah as Mirza Hussayn and deny He is anything. Where is the “little child” that Jesus asked for?
Has Baha’u’llah done so much harm to you to create such anger?
I
IgnatianPhilo
Guest
Servant when did I ever endorse patripassionism? Or Sabealianism? When did I ever say Jesus is the father? And you do realise the implications of saying “Jesus shares the same substance as the father?” You are saying essentially what constitutes Jesus, his existence, his very being, consistutes the father.Your almost there to trinitarianism, just say the same thing for the Holy spirit and you’ve abandoned Bahai.
Now I call him mirza Hussain because I believe the self given name he appropiated to himself is a lie, it does not describe whom he actually is, which to is a false prophet in the vein of Muhammad or Joseph smith.
Now I call him mirza Hussain because I believe the self given name he appropiated to himself is a lie, it does not describe whom he actually is, which to is a false prophet in the vein of Muhammad or Joseph smith.
D
daler
Guest
Ignatian. This has been explained to you over and over and over again. That you reject the explanations reflects only upon you yourself, not upon Baha’u’llah, whom we believe to be the Promised One of all religions, including Christianity. It is clear that no man can contend with God and His words. The Jews contended with the words of Christ. You contend with the words of Baha’u’llah.
When men contend with the Manifestations of God it is God with whom they contend. It is pure folly. To be in the Presence of Christ was to be in the Presence of God. Baha’is state them emphatically. To be in the Presence of the Bab was to be in the Presence of God. The same is true of the Blessed Beauty, whom you abhor, because it is the Light of God you contend with, clinging only to One of His Lamps, deifying the Lamp, when that Lamp Himself said, “The Father is greater than I” “These are not My words, but Him that sent Me” which “clearly” very clearly suggest His relationship as a Messenger of the One Who sends Him the Message.
You will reject this and protest, for that is your mission. You think yourself closer to Christ when in reality it is He with whom you contend, for you deny that which He says of Himself in relation to God. “Nevertheless, not My will, but Thine”
He, the Lord Jesus, did Not say, “Nevertheless not My will, by Mine”
He, the Lord Jesus, did Not say, “I am greater than I”
He, the Lord Jesus, did Not say, “These are not My words, but My words”
The distinction Jesus makes as the Son of God is sufficient proof that He does not claim to be God Himself, but His Son, with the capacity to bring us God’s words.
“Why callest thou Me good. There is one good. That is God”
Baha’is still see the reflection of God’s image and attributes in Christ, for He is the Word spoken by God through Whom the world came into being. The Word is the “Manifestation” of God, who appears in human form, for we could not handle His true reality were He to appear to us as He really is.
“How high the reward of him that hath not deprived himself of so great a bounty, nor failed to recognize the beauty of his Best-Beloved in this, His new attire.” Baha’u’llah
I
IgnatianPhilo
Guest
Of course I will contend with the claims of Bahai, I disagree with them, as to you actually explaining anything I beg to differ. That being said I am confused at the contradictory picture being offered by different bahai, as if you all don’t know anything about this and are offering different examples. One bahai seems insistent that Jesus is divine, to the point where the term obviously does not have the same Christian implication but he thinks by saying this he will satisfy Christian curiosity. WHilist you seem to think by denying that Christ is God you are explaining it to me. The problem here is that some bahai don’t want to represent things as you are representing them, that is how bahai actually believe, that Jesus is in no way God, in no way specially divine.
Now I could explain those quotes from Christ in a Christian context, the father is greater than I, I do the will of the father and etc, but that has been done before and I don’t want to shift the focus of the thread from bahai to Christianity. If your really curious as to Christian explanations open a thread on Christology and we can take it there. Regardless Christ is greater than Moses, regardless he is the creator of all that began to exist, regardless he has glory with the father before the foundation of the world.
So would it be correct to say, that bahai reject the idea of Jesus being superior to all other prophets? Hmmm? Take in mind the conception of Manifestationism is not present in the bible.
Now I could explain those quotes from Christ in a Christian context, the father is greater than I, I do the will of the father and etc, but that has been done before and I don’t want to shift the focus of the thread from bahai to Christianity. If your really curious as to Christian explanations open a thread on Christology and we can take it there. Regardless Christ is greater than Moses, regardless he is the creator of all that began to exist, regardless he has glory with the father before the foundation of the world.
So would it be correct to say, that bahai reject the idea of Jesus being superior to all other prophets? Hmmm? Take in mind the conception of Manifestationism is not present in the bible.
S
Servant19
Guest
Firstly…If Baha’u’llah does not describe who He actually is, why don’t you enlighten us with who you think He is, and the reasons behind that Ignatian?
If you are not advocating patripassionism, why then would you say that Jesus created all that there is in existence??
CCC292
292 … "There exists but one God. . . he is the Father, God, the Creator, the author, the giver of order. He made all things by himself, that is, by his Word and by His Wisdom…
So it is clear that the FATHER is the Creator of all that exists, not the Son, although they do share the same substance.
There is clear concern for your reading ability Ignatian. I have already expressed to you that the definition of the word “SUBSTANCE” is the stumbling block amongst Baha’is. The Divinity of Jesus is the “substance” that is shared with God and that is TOTALLY confirmed in the Writings of Baha’u’llah…
Now, I’ve said this, and yet I’m still as strong a Bahai as ever, no abandonment here, go figure…
Baha’u’llah has clarified the meaning of the Divine station of these Prophets by using the analogy of the sun and its rays, and the reflection from the mirror. They all share in the substance of light. The light in this analogy is the Divinity shared amongst all three proponents of the Trinity. Baha’u’llah affirms this and says that this is His Divinity too.
Baha’u’llahs substance is ONE with the Father.
Now the confusions of definition lies in the fact that Christianity chooses to call ALL proponents of the Trinity and combine them to form GOD.
The Bahai Faith does not do that, it maintains the Father as God, however still emphasizing that the Father (God) shares in the same substance as the Holy Spirit and that of Baha’u’llahs Divine aspect, and this is why you get contradictory views from different Baha’is, your terms and definitions are difficult to understand and Baha’is use different terms to you.
The intensity of that Divinity is different from one Divine to the next…just because I, a dentist do not tell you all you need to know about root canals does not mean I am not an expert in root canals!
If I were to teach you about root canals, I would send you to a tooth anatomist first, and they would teach you tooth anatomy (they also are experts in root canals btw but they only teach you about tooth anatomy)…does that make the tooth anatomist a false teacher???
Only blind people would accuse him of that…the reality is they are as expert as anyone in root canals, and they had many things they COULD HAVE said to you but you could not not “bear it now”
Soon you’ll come to me after your anatomy class and I will guide you onto ALL TRUTH about root canals.
Theologically, Ignatian, you’re becoming tiresome, read my friend, read our posts, twice or three times if needed, because this is becoming a monologue…
- Status