Baha'i Returns Thread: Ask Any of Many Baha'i

[daler]

I am talking about the eternal person of Jesus Christ. Now unless bahai think there is one manifestation, one eternal person who incarnates himself in different periods of history who perfectly reflects God your answers make no sense. Is that the case?

My central point of Jesus being the greatest is being avoided. My question to you Bahai is Jesus greater than Abraham, MOses, Muhammad and Mirza hussain (though the last two do not belong in a list with Abraham and Moses) ? Is Jesus the end all and be all of all that exists? To whom honour eternal is due to? I would like a clear answer not these attempts to answer around me.

For if you truely claim not to abrogate what has come you must accept that Christ is the greatest, he is God, to be worshipped, he only saved all humanity from itself, born of a virgin and rose again. But its not true that bahai don’t abrogate what has come before, they do it all the time when they deny Jesus as God (and do not claim he was divine I know you mean something else by that, that you do not consider JEsus of Nazereth God, you know what I mean in all of this, so please do not attempt to escape what I mean by redefining words to your liking).

Iggy. This is one last shot at trying to explain to you the individuality and non-individuality of the Person of the Manifestation known as Jesus the Christ. You will have to accept it as my explanation, and although it has been explained numerous times before, here it is one more time. In my human words, not Baha’u’llah’s

When we speak of the individuality of a certain Rose (Jesus) which appeared 2000 years ago, we can speak of His birth, life, words, and martyrdom within the specifics of that one single appearance of the Universal Manifestation Who, in a sense which transcends all individual human appearances, appears from age to age. In the latter sense, there is only this One “Manifestation” of God, the Alpha and the Omega, Who says “I am the Alpha and the Omega”, through Whom the all that is in the heavens and the earth have been created.
He is the Godhead, Who returns in human garb and individuality from age to age. If you look at this individual Rose (Jesus), you see Jesus, and speak of Him. If you look at the individual Rose (Moses) you speak of Him. Yet these individual Roses are but appearances of that Single Universal Manifestation of God, although we may, from our limited human perspective, also refer to “Them” as individual Manifestations of God. Both statements are true.

The proof of this is the appearance of John the Baptist, Who fulfilled the expectations of the Jews as the Return of Elijah, who must come before the Messiah (Jesus). When asked if he was Elijah, John denied this. For in the limited human sense, they were two distinct Roses born many centuries apart, each with their own distinct individuality.
OK… Then Jesus says John the Baptist was indeed Elijah. How can both statements be true?

Although this has been explained before, due to your insistence, it will be explained again, although you will reject it, for this is your stumbling block to which you feel you must cling. I can’t help you with that. Nevertheless, here is the explanation.

John was the Return of the spiritual qualities, essence, fragrance, and beauty of that former Rose (Elijah) He was not that specific human identity, for each had their own DNA, distinct “human” identity. Hence, if we look at that human identity, we see two “separate” appearances. Whereas if we look at their spiritual identity, to which Jesus refers, they are one and the same. Thus, the mystery is solved. The Rose has reappeared, and the Messiah appeared only after the return of the spirit of Elijah, though John was not Him.

The same holds true for Jesus, Son of Mary, an individual Manifestation of God, Who lived and died 2000 years ago, for He (Jesus) was a Rose unique to His time.
The awaited Return of that spiritual reality we associate with Jesus, the Christ, is like the return of Elijah, who ascended into heaven, interpreted literally by the Jews, which was not fulfilled literally by the coming of John, for he was born as a new baby human.

The same holds true for the Return of Christ.

Is it perplexing? Yes, at first. Is it comprehensible? Yes, it is.

Each Manifestation of God is the reappearance of the Single Divine Manifestation of God Who appears from age to age. The individual human appearance will always have a time and place of Their appearance, a unique human set of DNA, a human form in all its limitations.

Why is this hard to grasp? Because we, as human beings, are mortal, incapable of identifying with that immortal Beauty, which appears to us as a succession of different Roses. Some will say, “This year’s Rose is greater than the Roses before it. It is unique and incomparable.” When one’s eyes are fixated upon that outward appearance and manifestation as are yours, the eternal reappearance will never be understood, nor accepted, for it is impossible to fit in a limited cup of understanding.

Hence, when He returns, He will be denied by the deniers, even as the Jews denied John, and then Jesus, Whom they said could not be the Messiah, because they failed to recognize John as Elijah.

“We have once again sent John unto you.”

Please read in full, and carefully, and repeatedly this concept becomes clear to you, Baha’u’llah’s Letter to Pope Pius IX.

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/SLH/slh-5.html

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Why would I say that Jesus created all existence? Well there is this book called the gospel of John and heres what the gospel of John says to Christians who believe in it.

John 1 : 1 At the beginning of time the Word already was; and God had the Word abiding with him, and the Word was God. 2 He abode, at the beginning of time, with God. 3 It was through him that all things came into being, and without him came nothing that has come to be.

So while I perfectly admit that the father has his part in creation (obviously), the son also has his part in creation as well, what that means exactly I am unsure. What I am not unsure of however is that without the son we would not exist, he Is the cause of all that began to exist and we began to exist along with the prophets, Moses, Elijah, the kings, the earth the people the universe and everything. I don’t know what you think quoting the Roman catholic Catechism at me will do but I do not disagree with that statement any more than I would disagree as to the creed from which that comes. No Roman catholic theologian is going to say the son did not create the world, that is foolishness and you should not be searching for such things you know nothing about.
But that is not the topic of the room, the topic is bahai, lets stay focused. As for substance if you are going to say and continue to use the term despite you saying it is difficult for you, then you should be able to accept the consequences using such a term. It seems you have clarified the substance of the son as being not the same as the substance of what you call God, is that the case? That there is some extra substance that naturally flows from God and the manifestations share this substance? That’s interesting, but now I might ask about the persons, are the bahai manifestations individual persons or one person who incarnates at different times? Or do you not simply know and are making an educated guess? If the latter I think it would be safer for you to say you do not know instead of attempting to answer my questions as to this subject.

But now I am confused, you say the substance is now the same as the father, that is Mirza Hussain has the same substance as the Father. What is substance? Has this not been made clear? That substance is that which composes any existent entity, we could use other terms, essence, being or etc to describe this. This is the same of physical entities as well as spiritual entities, like angels or if you prefer manifestations because I believe Bahai reject the existence of angels curiously, that they have a substance a core of being. In God’s case Christians typically say he is so awesome but also so simple, his substance is impossible to realise, impossible to describe, that he is beyond every single created being. You are saying this substance of God, or if you do not maintain any sort of idea concerning divine simplicity (which I think bahai ought to accept in common with Christians actually), is the same as the substance of which Constitutes Mirza Hussain’s Spirit.

Now either God is divided into parts here, that is he can be broken down into Mirza Hussain, then Jesus, then Muhammad and then some father who directs and guides them. Or you are talking about your own patripassionist idea of God himself being the manifestation. Or you are talking about a multitude of persons sharing the substance of divinity and each of them for a time becoming incarnate. Or you are misappropriating the word substance. I do not know, but I would like to know what you mean.

Now, since I do say as you said, the proponents, I suppose by that word you mean persons of the trinity, God because they share the same substance, I feel that’s justified. There is nothing to distinguish Christ in his actual existence, his divinity from the father’s own divinity or body or being as it were. They are nonetheless distinct persons mind you and how that works I cannot tell you nor can anyone else but they are all God to be worshipped and glorified because they are the ultimate reality, they are pinnacle of existence, before all that existed, they are beyond anything conceivable in any dimension, they are dimensionless, they are inconceivable as to their being. Theres a reason only the son saw the father and beheld his glory, whereas Moses only got a glimpse at the back of God as it were, because Christ is God. God of God, True Light of true light, begotten not made, of one substance with the father.

So why don’t you, who is obstensibly agreeing with the Christian when he says that Jesus shares the same substance with God, worship Jesus as if he were God? Do you only worship that part of the divinity of God that is called father and ignore all else? Do you believe God has parts in the first place to divide and cut up and separate from one another?

Those are some of the questions you should be asking yourself I think.
Now in all that you have said Daler, would I be right to say that you think the very person of Muhammad, Mirza Hussain, Krishna and Budha are all the same individual, just with a different body, at different times and places, taking on different levels of divine revelation? This is stunning to me as I was lead to believe that bahai do not believe this by other bahai. Its very much like the concept of Krishna taking on different incarnations at different times but remaining the same soul obstensibly. This is a very wrong belief nonetheless.

 

[daler]

Why would I say that Jesus created all existence? Well there is this book called the gospel of John and heres what the gospel of John says to Christians who believe in it. .

Ignatian. I accept your sincerity on these points and questions, and appreciate the difficulty you are having in the discussion wherein Baha’is do not use the term “Trinity” because it multiplies God, or in the analogy, creates 3 physical “suns” to deal with. One being the sun up in the sky, second being the mirror on earth which reflects the sun, and three being the rays of the sun, or that light which is reflected.

When Baha’is speak of the individual mirrors as persons who are born, live, and die, they speak of individuality of the Manifestations of God. Hence, we speak of different Mirrors who come to us. Each of them can say: “I am God”, for it is God Who is saying that through Them, as they are termed in human language, the “Mouthpiece” of God.

Baha’u’llah says that God can in nowise “incarnate” His Essence, which is above ascent and descent into corporeal existence. The Creator does not become part of His creation.

All things were created through the Word, and in the Bible, the Word is identified with the individual Person of Jesus, the Christ. Baha’is accept this, but say that the Word Returns in each successive Manifestation. While Elijah is not John, and Moses is not Jesus, Who is not Baha’u’llah, each of Them are the means, if you will, by which God makes Himself known unto men.

That Word is pre-existant. It is the Alpha and the Omega. This Universal Manifestation appears to us in human form. Please read the following incredible story of one who encountered the Manifestation in both human form, and then as He truly is, unveiled. Such stories are not often circulated, but I am sharing this with you to help you comprehend the difference between the Eternal Reality of the Manifestation of God and His individual appearance as a human being in our midst.

Why Manifestations Appear in Human Form?
Hadi Rahmani Shirazi
Translated by: Khazeh Fananapazir

Janaab-i-Muhammad Quli Khan-i-Nakha’ee, was an influential and rich local man, who believed in Bahá’u’lláh, and lived in Khusef which is part of Birjand. As a result of his acceptance of the Faith, most of his relatives also became Baha’is.
This Janaab-i-Nakha’ee went on pilgrimage to Akka to attain the presence of His Holiness Bahá’u’lláh. On his first and second visit to Baha’u’llah, he was accompanied by other pilgrims, but when he returned to the pilgrim house, he thought to himself that he had borne the hardships and difficulties of a long journey that had lasted six months, hoping to witness some extraordinary Divine events, but he saw in Bahá’u’lláh a man like others, speaking and giving instructions similar to other men. “There is perhaps nothing extraordinary or miraculous here,” he thought.
He was immersed in these thoughts when on the third day of their visit, one of the servants came and informed him that Baha’u’llah wanted to see him alone and unaccompanied. He immediately went to the presence of the Blessed Beauty and as he lifted the curtain and entered His room, he bowed and instantly saw the Blessed Beauty as an incredibly bright and dazzling Light. So intense was his experience of this Light that he fell to the floor and lost consciousness. All that he recalled is Bahá’u’lláh saying: “fee Amanil’lah” which means go in God’s safe keeping."
The servants were able to drag him to the corridor and subsequently brought him to the pilgrim house. He could not eat or sleep for two days after that event and he was conscious of Bahá’u’lláh’s overwhelming Presence everywhere. He kept on telling the other pilgrims that He is here with us.
His fellow pilgrims got tired of this and asked Abdu’l-Baha for help. After couple of days, the servant came back again and took him to Bahá’u’lláh’s presence. When he attained His presence, He poured forth loving kindness and gracious utterances and bade him to be seated.
Then Bahá’u’lláh said: “Janaab-i-Muhammad Quli Khan! The Manifestations of the Divine Essence are forced to appear in human attire and clothes. If Their true Being, that which is behind the veil of concealment were to be revealed, then all humanity like your good self will lose consciousness and swoon away to the realm of the unconscious.” Then Baha’u’llah went on: “Do you know how parrots are taught to speak?” I bowed and said: “I do not know”.
Baha’u’llah explained: “The parrot owners have a parrot within a cage. Then they bring a big mirror in front of the cage and a man hides himself behind the mirror and starts repeating words and phrases. The parrot sees that there is another parrot identical to itself talking in the cage (reflected in the mirror) and imagining that it is another parrot that is doing the talking it too starts mimicking and learns to speak. Now, if the person who is actually behind the mirror were to reveal himself from the start, then the parrot will never learn to speak. It is thus that the Manifestations of the Divine Being should come into the world in human form and attire so that They will not frighten mankind with Their awesome Being…”
This man was utterly transformed and on his return from attaining Bahá’u’lláh’s presence to the end of his days, he was engaged in teaching others. He had attained such spiritual insight that he predicted the night of his own departure from this earthly realm.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

That analogy breaks down because that is not our claim. Our claim is that there is only one sun and within this sun there are three persons. Within the one substance of God, for God is very simple, there are free persons existing distinctly and eternally within one another.
But I want to know one thing clearly, you are essentially saying there is one spiritual person, one Manifestation who comes in different forms or bodies in different periods of time in the guise of Jesus, Moses and etc? Right? This is what you are saying? I won’t lie, I find this worse than what I thought bahai believed.
I read one of your sentences and then you seem to completely backtrack and contradict what you are saying, you are saying now Moses is Not Jesus, that John is Not Elijah, who are they then? Did Jesus begin to exist and the Christ descend into him? Did the word descend into Moses? There is no clarity here and I somehow doubt bahai have this systamised to a point where you can convey this clearly without vague metaphors which really do not do the job and make things much more confusing than they need to be.
Heres what you present I think

A = God
B = Christ and the word
C= Jesus
D = Moses
C does not equal D
But C = B as C = B

I am not sure if you are saying B = A however

But B does equal A in that they share the same substance for clearly you are opposed to worshipping Christ as if he were divine and for the sake of a common word lets restrict divine to the definite sense of God. That God is divine and all other things are creatures, holy maybe but creatures nontheless.

Hence I ask, do you really understand the sense in which Christians use substance for you to use this word in this dialogue?

Lets break substance down again. You are composed of substances, you exist, as a person spirit and soul. Your soul is probably more simple than your Body for the body constitutes various elements, particles, atoms and etc. You are composed of an immense amount of substances that end up to form you, without these parts, there is no you, there is no being which can be called Daler. So the question is, does God have substance? I think the answer is yes, if we want to say he existed, but his substance complex like ours? No rather it is totally simple, totally one, unable to be divided, separated or the like, it is beyond anything created. Now Christians do not mean Christ merely reflects that substance of God, but that he is that substance of God, he is the very being of God. What I am getting is that there are multiple or one manifestations, or a general spirit that accompanies every person whom is considered a Manifestation. Its not that the person Jesus is actually the word, he is nothing, rather the word inhabits him, that old theology of the gnostics again and that is not an insult but rather me attempting to place your theology. Is Jesus in of himself the manifestation? Or is he just another person? Did he pre exist? Or did the word pre exist? Is there a Jesus and the Christ? Or is there a Jesus the Christ?

 

[daler]

But I want to know one thing clearly, you are essentially saying there is one spiritual person, one Manifestation who comes

Ignatian. Believe me. I am not trying to avoid your question or to spin the answer. I don’t fully grasp the whole thing myself. I think that when people came up with the idea of the Trinity, they, too, were grappling with this. The Trinity is how they managed to make it intelligible, for when Jesus says: “I and the Father are One”, Baha’is say that this means that the Mirror perfectly reflects, or communicates to us, the “image” of God, insofar as we can receive and comprehend God. But as God is beyond human intelligence, that which is within our intelligible capacity to comprehend is “manifested” in the Person of the Word of God. Our eyes need to fixate upon an object, or a person. That Person is the Manifestation of God, whether Jesus or Baha’u’llah. Our eyes see a human being. The reality of the Manifestation, if we look through our human eyes, has this human being as an identity, which is limited. The Reality of the Manifestation is unlimited.

Let me side track here for a minute. This is relevant. The Sufis believe that they can attain the Presence of God directly, without Muhammad, in their case, or any other Manifestation of God. Baha’u’llah flatly denies this. He says that God is beyond our capacity to approach, comprehend, define, or relate to in any way. That the Only Way is through the Person of the Manifestation of God. “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man cometh to the Father (God) but by Me”

The “Me” taking is the Universal Manifestation of God, as I understand it. Let us say that it is General MacArthur and we are the Japanese. He IS the US Army, its representative, its Mouthpiece.

During the Civil War, it was General Grant. So when we speak of the position of “Thee” “General”, who appears in every war, we can A say that there has always been Thee General with whom we all must deal with on his own terms.

OR… B We can speak of the various Generals, whether Grant, or MacArthur, and those who will appear a thousand or thousands of years from now.

In their human capacity, each of these generals has an individual identity, a birthdate, a mother, a father, their own DNA a death date, etc. Each has an individual human identity and a soul, as far as our descriptions go.

If, however, we speak of “Thee” General, that position transcends human limitations.

Both are applicable and true. If we are confounded in our inability to fathom its mystery, we end up talking about the Trinity, and saying the Army “is” the General “is” the Force
i.e. God, the Son, the Holy Spirit.

The General appears from age to age to fight the wars. Hence:

Lord Krishna says in the Gita, “Whenever, O Arjuna, righteousness declines and unrighteousness prevails, my body assumes human form and lives as a human being.” He also says that in order to protect the righteousness and also to punish the wicked, I incarnate myself on this earth from age to age."
Similarly, Jesus had said that, “If God were your father, you would love me; because I proceeded forth and came from God. I did not come of me, but He sent me.”

“”“HE sent ME”""

In many places Bhagavad Gita, Lord Krishna said about his oneness with God: “I am the way, come to me … neither the multitude of gods, nor great sages know my origin because I am the source of all the gods and great sages.” In the Holy Bible, Jesus also utters the same in his Gospels: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the ‘Father’ except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my ‘Father’ as well…”

. God is beyond words or numbers. Words and numbers relate to that which is finite and describable. To say there are three Gods, or God in three persons reduces God to a “person”, or persons, like ourselves, limiting Him to “our” comprehension.
. This is the trouble Muslims have with the concept of the Trinity, that it still multiplies and divides God according to the computations of men.
. It is God Who sends His Messenger, His Word. He is the “Speaker” of the Word, from which the Word, at His will, issues forth. If we receive His Word, we receive Him. If we reject His Word, we reject God.

I know that you will come back asking if each of the Manifestations of God is one and the same Soul. Baha’u’llah says that in one sense this is true. He also speaks of them as Holy Souls (plural) It is because of the lens we look through that such terms apply. In the realm of God, “God was alone; there was none else besides Him.”

From a single Soul, Adam, all other souls proceed. God is beyond the counting of souls, beyond any description or limitation, praise or condemnation.

O CHILDREN OF THE DIVINE AND INVISIBLE ESSENCE!

Ye shall be hindered from loving Me and souls shall be perturbed as they make mention of Me. For minds cannot grasp Me nor hearts contain Me.

Baha’u’llah

Please read that last quote again a few times. Thank you. And realize that I, too, am perturbed as I make mention of God. This is the condition of awe. It is beyond our intellect, and we are confounded. This confounding is the intellect running into its limits. The ego persists at full speed attempting to confine everything within its grasp. It fails. It will always fail in this attempt. I accept the frustration. We are all perturbed at His mention. And that is as it should be.

 

[Servant19]

So if the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are ABSOLUTELY ONE IN ALL ASPECTS, what distinguishes them then, Ignatian?

Can you answer this question please?

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

So if the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are ABSOLUTELY ONE IN ALL ASPECTS, what distinguishes them then, Ignatian?

Can you answer this question please?

Open a thread on this and I will, I do not want to be sidetracked in this thread when we should be focused on what you believe.

 

[Servant19]

Open a thread on this and I will, I do not want to be sidetracked in this thread when we should be focused on what you believe.

Ok thanks, I will do that a little later…

 

[daler]

Open a thread on this and I will, I do not want to be sidetracked in this thread when we should be focused on what you believe.

Hey Folks, This may be a stretch, but with all of the telescopes and knowledge of the universe being tapped, the astronomers have fully concluded that there are more planets out there than stars.
. Now let us drop the word stars for a minute, and just call them suns, for that is what they are, functioning as sources of light and heat for life’s processes.
. If only one in a hundred of these “solar systems” has achieved planetary life, that is a considerable amount of life out there - billions of planets in some stage of development, some ahead of us, some not yet where we are at.

. Ok. So the logical conclusion is that for those planets which are “alive”, and far along enough to have what we might term as “human counterparts”, or spiritual beings as well as physical, like ourselves, then it is logical to assume that “they” must also be taught about God, the Creator of the Universe and its billions of galaxies with billions of star systems per.

. So where does that take the idea of Manifestations of God on all or some of these developing planets? The universe is not only teeming with life, from simple to complex, but other “human” like creatures, regardless of their physical forms, which are merely the adaptive processes to their environments.

. What would count then, in all of this, would be that there is also progressive revelation happening out there in all the worlds which God has created. Is this a mind bender? We have more than sufficient evidence already to conclude that there is no longer a question of life “out there”, for to them, from any other star looking our way, we are the Martians.

. So they, too, will have their Genesis type creation stories, assorted Prophet Figures, whether Adam, Moses, Jesus, Buddha, or Baha’u’llah and beyond… A parallel to our own unfoldment as a spiritual species.

“Beam me up, Scotty”

“Kirk out.”

 

[Little_Star_1]

We love these Beautiful Mirrors which God sends to us to reflect His Beauty. Sometimes we fall in love with a particular Mirror that we forget the Divine Purpose of that Mirror, which is to draw us away from ourselves and closer to God.

We are saddened at the harsh treatment of these Mirrors, saying, look how much this One suffered, or that One. We inherit traditions praising some Mirrors and not praising others, or holding Them as high as our favorite Mirror. Yet Their Purpose is the same Purpose. Who are we to say that religion is about the worship of the Mirror, whether this One or that, rather than the worship of God, Who has fashioned each one of Them for us as a means to receive His Light?

. “These sanctified Mirrors, these Day Springs of ancient glory, are, one and all, the Exponents on earth of Him Who is the central Orb of the universe, its Essence and ultimate Purpose. From Him proceed their knowledge and power; from Him is derived their sovereignty. The beauty of their countenance is but a reflection of His image, and their revelation a sign of His deathless glory. They are the Treasuries of Divine knowledge, and the Repositories of celestial wisdom. Through them is transmitted a grace that is infinite, and by them is revealed the Light that can never fade…These Tabernacles of Holiness, these Primal Mirrors which reflect the light of unfading glory, are but expressions of Him Who is the Invisible of the Invisibles. By the revelation of these Gems of Divine virtue all the names and attributes of God, such as knowledge and power, sovereignty and dominion, mercy and wisdom, glory, bounty, and grace, are made manifest.”

I wanted to jump in here. Boy, is this a beautiful thread! I would say that we are all to become these mirrors or else that which Jesus came here to show us, to direct us towards, is lost. He did not merely come here to say “look folks the Son of God exists”. To me this is what gets us lost. We become so overwhelmed with the fact of his existence, that he came and died for us, that we lose the message and the Way in which he directed us.

 

[Little_Star_1]

Steve,
Thanks for responding to my questions. I have some comments.

Baha’u’llah’s teachings are completely in agreement with this, in fact it is nearly a direct quote of some of His writings.

To say a “new heaven and a new earth” pretty much implies that everything will have changed. But since you say we don’t know what it will be like, how can you say for sure that it is not as Baha’u’llah teaches? That is, the prophecy means there will be a new Revelation from God (heaven) and a new religion for mankind (earth),

We agree that heaven is not a place, and not limited by space and time, whereas our physical body is limited by space and time, would you agree with that? But the question remains, what is the difference between a spiritual body and a spirit? The New Testament seems to make that distinction, and certainly the Church teaches that.

Maybe the answer is just as you say, it is a human spiritual body as opposed to an angelic one. Baha’u’llah teaches that we retain our human individuality, recognize and interact with other humans in the next world, we do not turn into angels, which are different spiritual beings. That implies that the true nature of humans is spiritual, and glorified, that is how God created us to be. so there is really no difference with what Christ taught.

I completely agree with you here.

I agree that there is no marriage in heaven, but what about on “earth as it is in heaven?”
If it is really heaven and has no similarity to earth, why call it earth?

Our earthly existence involves birth, growth, learning and developing. What is bad about any of that? And when we live a good life and we pass it on to future generations, there is nothing bad about that either, especially since our destiny is reunion with God and eternal life.

Consider this: The Catholic Church teaches the sanctity of life. I would say there is even an obligation to marry and have children, unless you have a vocation to celibacy, is that a fair statement? So how can you imagine a future where there are no more babies, no additional humans, a fixed number for the rest of eternity?

I don’t believe that these questions are meaningless. There are great mysteries that we will never understand, and some that will be answered after we leave this life, but if we don’t examine the beliefs that can be understood, we are not living up to our potential as humans, with both spirit and mind as God created us.

May God bless you.

Boy, I love this exchange!!! Can you not see that in this exchange, in which respect and love of Him that made us is obvious on both sides, that His will is being done through you? At some point we can all reach the same, not understanding, but Knowing, that all is within the Father God, we are all One within Him?

 

[Little_Star_1]

Servant when did I ever endorse patripassionism? Or Sabealianism? When did I ever say Jesus is the father? And you do realise the implications of saying “Jesus shares the same substance as the father?” You are saying essentially what constitutes Jesus, his existence, his very being, consistutes the father.Your almost there to trinitarianism, just say the same thing for the Holy spirit and you’ve abandoned Bahai.

Now I call him mirza Hussain because I believe the self given name he appropiated to himself is a lie, it does not describe whom he actually is, which to is a false prophet in the vein of Muhammad or Joseph smith.

Philo, if you carefully read prior posts, you will see that Baha’i here have stated the same belief that is described by Christianity as the Trinity. They just use different terms. If you carefully read the Baha’i scripture that has been posted, you can see it in there for yourself as I did. You want them to use words that you are comfortable with instead of doing the thinking after reading. Christ himself never used the term “Trinity”. It was a word used to describe what is so that difficult principals could be held in the minds of the many that could not find it within the text on their own. The Baha’i faith invites you to come to this understanding on your own and to grow in spiritual understanding that will become part of who you are transforming you. Instead, it seems, you are trying to get them to bow down to the superiority of Christ. Christ himself would never had done this and, if you read their texts, you will see that it is wholly unnecessary to try to drag them into something as they already have faith in it. They don’t have to use your words.

 

[Little_Star_1]

Of course I will contend with the claims of Bahai, I disagree with them, as to you actually explaining anything I beg to differ. That being said I am confused at the contradictory picture being offered by different bahai, as if you all don’t know anything about this and are offering different examples. One bahai seems insistent that Jesus is divine, to the point where the term obviously does not have the same Christian implication but he thinks by saying this he will satisfy Christian curiosity. WHilist you seem to think by denying that Christ is God you are explaining it to me. The problem here is that some bahai don’t want to represent things as you are representing them, that is how bahai actually believe, that Jesus is in no way God, in no way specially divine.

Now I could explain those quotes from Christ in a Christian context, the father is greater than I, I do the will of the father and etc, but that has been done before and I don’t want to shift the focus of the thread from bahai to Christianity. If your really curious as to Christian explanations open a thread on Christology and we can take it there. Regardless Christ is greater than Moses, regardless he is the creator of all that began to exist, regardless he has glory with the father before the foundation of the world.
So would it be correct to say, that bahai reject the idea of Jesus being superior to all other prophets? Hmmm? Take in mind the conception of Manifestationism is not present in the bible.

Philo,

You expect all Baha’i to have the same vision of what is said in scripture. Few Christians do this. Goodness, we have Greek Orthodox, Catholicism. Baptists, Methodists, on and on. Then, even within those denominations, two folks will be sitting right next to each other in church, hear the same sermon, and take something altogether different away from it. It is about the growth of the individual that can come together in love and peace with all others. It is not about each of them gaining the exact same understanding of the finer points. It is about our growth towards perfection being of such a point that we can embrace each other from the one same source of Love. I think that you may not realize it, but you are searching from a point of thinking that all Truth can be held in the mind and summed up with one man derived definition of the ALL. It isn’t possible my friend. Even the angels in Heaven do not enjoy such an understanding and we were created to be lesser than they.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I don’t expect anything of Bahai, what I only expect is to convey why I think they are mistaken. I do not consider the bahai understanding as helping me grow, I am not a gnostic, I refuse their belief concerning the superioty of the spiritual soul over the physical body, I refuse them their belief that it is wrong to worship my creator (jesus) and other things. I do not see things as clearly, and the way bahai use words is not the same way I use words. When the bahai says that their prophet is of the same substance as God, what does this mean exactly? Does it mean as the church has talked about these things that Mirza hussain is teh one simple substance of divinity of their God? Is he but only one hypostasis within the one substance of divinity? Or does it mean something else? Is he a lesser substance within a complex God that can be broken down and divided into parts? For instance Christians cannot say Christ can be seperated from God the father in his substance, that is impossible, but from what I see the bahai telling me It seems Mirza Hussain can be seperated because he cannot be worshipped despite them saying he has the “same substance” as God. Bahai are obviously not used to these terms and I only use them because they have been a good way to talk about theology, so untill I am sure what is being said here I will continue to ask, I will continue to clarify and I will continue to critique.

That being said little star, you seem opposed to man definitions, the definitions of the church over the centuries so i want to ask you again. Are you willing to discuss this topic specifically in another thread dealing with this subject? Because you are mistaken on the role of men in church history and I woud relish the chance to correct you.

 

[Little_Star_1]

Okay, I thought of a way to illustrate this, and then, gonna sign out cause I have run my mouth enough on here (all these posts right in a row).

My brother, sister, and I come from a very diverse background. As a result, we all have different skin, eye, and hair color. Same parents, but very different results in the look of their children. I am light in skin and hair coloring, and my eyes are brown and sometimes light brown. My sister is brown in skin color, dark hair color with a touch of red, and very dark brown eyes, our brother has dark hair with blonde highlights, and a ruddy brown color of skin with blonde body hair and light eyes that change color.

If you saw a picture of my mother and looked at my sister, you would say, boy you look just like her. If you look at the same picture of my mother and look at me, you would say boy you look just like her. But, my sister and I do not look alike at all. Same source, different results in the details. I am from the exact same source as they. So it is with Christians and Baha’i no matter what words are used to describe the faiths.

What I am saying, once you get beyond the appearance of things, and get to its core, we are the same and are of the same. In fact, if you saw me standing with my sister and brother, you would think that each of us is of a different race even. But, we are all of the same source in reality. So it is with all of man. So it is with all monotheistic beliefs. We are all reaching for God.

Okay, folks, gonna go away and rest for a while.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Daler, the thing is we didn’t come up with the trinity; we were defining what we had always believed. The concept of the trinity has its predecessors in the ante Nicene church but I do not want to focus on that, only correct you.

Now my main point as to the identity of the Manifestation and or manifestations is to simply ask are you able to say whether there is one manifestation before incarnation or many manifestations before incarnation. Is yours either of these positions?

A There are numerous spiritual entities called Manifestations who at different times of earth history each incarnate, they are unique not only in their eartly identity but are unique in their pre-existent spiritual identity. That is Mirza Hussain was not literally and or actually on earth at the Time of Muhammad though they share the same role and or spirit and or substance?

B There is only one manifestation who at different times takes on different appearances and preaches different messages every so often? That is Mirza Hussain is literally Muhammad and if he so desired he could have recalled his existence as Muhammad and said “I did destroy the idols of Mecca and slaughter infidels”?
Or is your position another?

C There are physically born and conceived humans each with individual names and identities who receive into themselves at one point “the manifestation, the Christ, the word,” and excersise the will of such an entity?

These positions are not the same and they cannot all be true, one of them or none of them must correct.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

What I am saying, once you get beyond the appearance of things, and get to its core, we are the same and are of the same. In fact, if you saw me standing with my sister and brother, you would think that each of us is of a different race even. But, we are all of the same source in reality. So it is with all of man. So it is with all monotheistic beliefs. We are all reaching for God.

Okay, folks, gonna go away and rest for a while.

The analogy falls apart because parents bearing genetic offspring with different traits is not a contradiction because there is a numerous amount of genetic code in which to take from the parents to form something similar or starkly different. You are saying Christianity and bahai are of the same source, that source being God, my question then is can God produce a contradiction?

if Bahai and Christianity are both correct then there is a contradiction. We are not saying the same thing. Either it is right to worship Jesus as Chrsitians say or it is wrong to as Muslims, Jews and bahai say. Either it is right to have icons or it is wrong as Muslims jews and bahai say. Either it is right to disparage Mirza Hussain as a false prophet who wanted to unite the world via evil means, or it is wrong to do this. Either the sacrament of the euchairst is real as Christians maintain or it is nothing really real as bahai maintain. Either marriage is a sacramental union between man and women in whcih there is a genuine and real grace given by God or there is nothing of the kind as bahai maintain. Either we ressurect physically as Christians maintain or do not as Bahai maintain.

Its argument of the blind man and the elephant, except it fails to take into account one simple fact, contradiction. It is the worst sort of foolishness because in avoiding our contradictions you think we can fool ourselves into saying we are really “one.” We are not one, we do not have the same source. You constantly say I am using man’s definitions, why are you trying now to say we are one when you clearly think Christianity that traditional Christians hold to is derived of man?

See we are not the same, the mere fact the bahai refuse to worship Jesus Christ as God, one in trinity, one in essen undivided with the father and the son alone is evidence of this.

 

[Little_Star_1]

I don’t expect anything of Bahai, what I only expect is to convey why I think they are mistaken. I do not consider the bahai understanding as helping me grow, I am not a gnostic, I refuse their belief concerning the superioty of the spiritual soul over the physical body, I refuse them their belief that it is wrong to worship my creator (jesus) and other things. I do not see things as clearly, and the way bahai use words is not the same way I use words. When the bahai says that their prophet is of the same substance as God, what does this mean exactly? Does it mean as the church has talked about these things that Mirza hussain is teh one simple substance of divinity of their God? Is he but only one hypostasis within the one substance of divinity? Or does it mean something else? Is he a lesser substance within a complex God that can be broken down and divided into parts? For instance Christians cannot say Christ can be seperated from God the father in his substance, that is impossible, but from what I see the bahai telling me It seems Mirza Hussain can be seperated because he cannot be worshipped despite them saying he has the “same substance” as God. Bahai are obviously not used to these terms and I only use them because they have been a good way to talk about theology, so untill I am sure what is being said here I will continue to ask, I will continue to clarify and I will continue to critique.

That being said little star, you seem opposed to man definitions, the definitions of the church over the centuries so i want to ask you again. Are you willing to discuss this topic specifically in another thread dealing with this subject? Because you are mistaken on the role of men in church history and I woud relish the chance to correct you.

Okay this is where you get to the heart of it. You think you are to correct me and others. Sir, my beliefs have been placed in me and God has allowed me to be able to see and touch them, and feel them. I have been blessed. I see the church and God as very separate. Whether you believe it or not, you do not. You see God tied up in the words produced for man’s understanding by the church. I see this as ridiculous. That it helps others in gaining what they believe is an understanding of what God wants of man is fine, is glorious. It is not, nor has it ever been necessary for me. To me, to allow this is to allow the misconceptions of the Truth that have pulled men apart for centuries, to invade my being. Nope, don’t want it.

What you say in your last post makes little sense in light of all of what has been said to you through great effort by the Baha’i. You don’t understand and want to blame them for your inability to understand. Also, as a Christian, it makes little sense in light of what Jesus said to us regarding us all being the sons of God. The truth is that it appears that you understand the meaning of the words, but not the life of the words. You probably don’t get my meaning in saying this either.

In time, perhaps, the Father will bless you and correct you. In the meantime, I appreciate that you believe you are offering me a gift of some sort. I respectfully decline it out of love of the Father that lives and breathes in me. I will not confine His Reality to words written in a treatise by man, that is the doctrine of the Catholic church in the “CC”.

This is the difference in our faiths, the heart of the difference. I see that He Lives and that I live and move and have my being in Him. You are still concerned with the fact of the words, not the fact of His living Being. This is also the difference between what you ask of the Baha’i. You say, come and see my words, my histories. They say, come and live as one with the Father, come and know your oneness with the Father–know it as it is the Truth, now live it.

Enough discussion over this worn out effort of your’s. It is appreciated, but you do not understand and what you cannot understand is not my responsibility to correct, especially since you do not see the need for correction. Live and love the God of your church. Go on with it. I will go on with my Lord as he has saved me. No need for you to get involved in what already is living as a fact and source in my life.

 

[Little_Star_1]

Philo,

Why are you here on the Baha’i thread? To confront them? To insult them? Isn’t there enough of this going on in the physical world? Can you not see the difference between the approach you take and that in earlier posts by other Christians?

You want to prove them wrong because you see contradictions in their faith. Sir, folks have seen the same types of contradictions within Christianity for centuries. You want to use more words to dismiss these. But, you can’t for those that will not accept your explanations. Go correct some atheists why don’t you? You might do some real good there. Here you have only disrupted a lovely exchange. What is your purpose sir? Can you go and be alone with God and determine that? Or, will you pull out a book and let the book tell you? Jesus called us to find out by actually communing with him and the Father.

Good luck to you. I will not respond any further to your posts.

 

[flameburns623]

I think dialogue and conversation can help establish what is true and what is false. I do think one needs to start from a position of respect and courtesy–Ignito Philo violates that by declining to use the appropriate title of Baha’u’llah. Also by some element of condescension in his responses at times.

Having said that: the Baha’i in places display perhaps a gentler yet very palpable condescension of their own. Getting the received teaching about what Christianity teaches regarding Christ, the Trinity, Heaven, etcetera correct isn’t that hard. Quoting sources fairly–rather than misappropriating isolated texts to surmise that historical persons of known Christian orthodoxy–is dirty pool.

Ignitio is attempting to engage in a fairly rigorous discourse, and he and a couple of the Baha’i have carried the conversation above my meager abilities at times. But I can see that in places there is a a slippage of decorum–shall the Baha’i pointedly refer to the Holy Father as “Bergoglio”?–or what feels like an almost obstinate determination to see Christianity only thru Baha’i-tinted spectacles.

It’s a good conversation. Please don’t drop out. But be mindful that good dialogue requires effort and patience. It requires good skills of “analysis” BEFORE “critique”.

My only comment to Little Star btw, is that both Baha’i and Christian believe there is something known as “final truth”: in skimming (not reading closely) your responses I was getting the impression that at times you almost believe that truth is relativistic, that there is no Absolute Truth but only a smorgasbord of truths to pick and choose from. Apologies if my quick overview does you an injustice. But it is in the cause of Truth that PhilIgnitio and the Baha’i contend so earnestly. I honor their zeal even if I hope they use more care in their efforts.

My latest observations.