Baha'i Returns Thread: Ask Any of Many Baha'i

[Little_Star_1]

To answer the question why I treat Baha’i with respect and hopefully love:

The Good Samaritan
Luke 10:25-37

Jesus loved to tell a good story to make a point, and The Good Samaritan is one of His most famous stories of all.

Whenever someone asked Jesus which of the Old Testament commandments was the most important, Jesus said these two are the most important of all: “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind” and “Love your neighbor just as much as you love yourself.”

“Love” can mean many different things, but the “Christian love” that Jesus talked about means treating others with kindness and respect and helping them when they need it. It is the kind of love we do instead of the kind of love we feel.

“Love your neighbor as yourself” was part of the Old Testament Law (Leviticus 19:18) that was sacred to Jesus’ kinfolk, the Jews. But, many people thought a “neighbor” meant only their fellow Jews. One day a lawyer asked Jesus, “And just who is my neighbor?” Jesus told the story of The Good Samaritan to answer his question in a way we can never forget:

A Jewish man was taking a trip alone and was attacked by robbers. They beat him, robbed him of everything he had, and left him nearly dead beside the road. After while, a Jewish priest came along and saw the poor man lying beside the road. As a religious man, you would expect him to stop and do what he could to help. But, instead, he kept going and pretended he did not see. Later, a Levite came along. Levites were assistants to the priests, so you would expect him to stop and help, too. But, he did just like the priest and kept on going.

The Good Samaritan bandaged the man’s wounds, put him on his own donkey and took him to an inn.

Finally, a Samaritan man came by. Even though they both lived in the land of Palestine and shared a similar religion, the Jews and the Samaritans definitely did not think of each other as “neighbors.” In fact, they hated each other. The Samaritans came from a different race of people than the Jews. They had considered each other enemies for hundreds of years and refused to even talk to each other!

You would expect the Samaritan man to be the one who just passed by without helping. Instead, this Samaritan man took pity on the injured Jewish man. He bandaged his wounds. He put him on his own donkey and took him to an inn where he could be safe and recover. Since the injured man had been robbed of everything he had, the Samaritan man even paid his bill at the inn and paid the innkeeper to take good care of him!

After telling this story, Jesus turned to the lawyer who had asked, “And who is my neighbor?” and said to him, “Now which of the three men that passed by was a neighbor to the injured man?” The lawyer was forced to admit that it was the Samaritan who treated the injured man as a neighbor, not his fellow Jews who did nothing to help. Jesus then said, “Yes, now go and do the same!”

If a Samaritan could be a neighbor to a Jew, and Jesus told us to “go and do the same,” then all of God’s people must be our neighbors and we must love them just as the Samaritan man did! Yet, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Catholics, Protestants, African Americans, Native Americans, Hispanics, Asians, the poor, the homeless, the unattractive, gays, lesbians, the handicapped, the mentally ill, and countless other groups are still sometimes the victims of ridicule, hatred and discrimination. Jesus must be looking down with sadness that, after 2000 years, we have still not learned to love our neighbors!

To learn more: Matthew 5:43-48, Matthew 22:34-39, Mark 12:28-31, Galatians 5:14, James 2:8-9, 2:14-17.

christianbiblereference.org/story_GoodSamaritan.htm

The point, the seat of God in man is in the heart. Live from there and you are Godly, no matter what you may call your faith. End of story, learn it, live it.

 

[Jcc1960]

What it shows is that things have been brought to full fruition in Jesus Christ. The premise of the book of hebrews is the ultimate supremecy of Jesus Christ over all, he is the one who created the world, he is the one by which we are saved, he is the one by which we are all accountable to, he is the only mediator between God and man, he is the one by which the father says (THE FATHER SAYS) “Thy throne o God is forever.” s is a God of confusion, a god so incompetent he has to try nine or so times to get it right.

I see your point here. I agree that the New Tesament does point towards the ultimate supremacy of Jesus, that is, supremacy over Creation, over all humans and our sins, and He provided a path to redemption. He really did not address other religious systems, so no one asked and He didn’t say if He had supremacy over Krishna or Zoroaster. Of course, as the Messiah, the Promised One of the Jews, there is an implied supremacy over Moses and the Prophets of Isreal, although it is interesting that Jesus said “if you believed Moses, you would believe Me”

Mirza Hussain cannot claim any of these things, he is not the mediator, he is none of these things.

Of course He can and did. He is the Return of Christ, so whatever you attribute to Christ also applies to Baha’u’llah.

But heres the ultimate problem with your progressive revelation, the ideal is fine and dandy but when we actually see the history of the supposed figures you believe we see something very different, something which Bahai cannot account for except in the most Obvious ways. The best way to deal with Krishna is to say the sources cannot be trusted except only when they agree with Bahai dogma, the same can be said of budha and Zoroaster. But what do you do when a legitimate contradiction appears in sources which you cannot dismiss because your own prophets have determined them realiable? Usually it is the worst type of interpretation which places the view of modern bahais on to those figures of the past without thinking to consider their actual historic circumstance.

Not so. We do consider historic circumstances, where this information actually exists. If Krishna appeared 5000 years ago, there is no history that goes back that far, there are only oral traditions that have been handed down, and archaeological findings, which are not history. It would be like saying what were the historic circumstances at the time of Noah.

At the time of Christ, there are Jewish and Roman histories, none of which mention Jesus, but they do shed light on the culture, beliefs and other historic figures mentioned in the Gospels, so are very relevant when studying the New Testament. Perhaps you are thinking particularly about the early Church history and writings of the Patriarchs. With the greatest respect to them, Baha’is would certainly study their writings to learn about the development of Christianity, and also glean from their wisdom, there were many profound questions that the Church fathers wrote about. However, I would propose that even they would subordinate their writings to the words of Christ upon His Return.

You maintain manifestations cannot sin, but we see clear examples of those whom you call manifestations sinning. Moses for instance and the only answer one can give is to say the text is suddenly metaphorically making Moses represent all israel. The text becomes a free for all in which any interpretation which can be read literally must not be because it contradicts the bahai faith. If Moses wanted to say he was taking on the punishment for the congregation he could have just said it, but instead he wrote it in such a way that all those following him would believe in something totally different. The same of Luke who could have written an account of the apostles merely being together and then having a sudden revelation goes on to confuse those who read his gospel and acts by then portraying Jesus as literally eating fish and telling each of his apostles “i am not a spirit” or the apostle John in his gospel having Jesus invite Thomas to touch him.

No. Not a free for all for anyone to interpret.

These are God’s words for Bahai, but only bahai could ever have the hope of understanding them and we see the results of every one of your so called manifestations. Mass confusion and different religions which contend against the other. Your God’s record is not one to be proud of, not a single one of his attempts has succeeded and you should not believe yourselves to be immune for you have no more garuntees than did the Hindus, Muslims, jews and Christians. By rights and precdent set fourth you will fail completely as everyone else has. Thus why I say yours is a God of confusion, a god so incompetent he has to try nine or so times to get it right.

Are you the one to define God’s success?

There is no need for the religions to contend with one another. That is the message that God has sent in this day, and will lead to His Kingdom on earth.

 

[Servant19]

Servant, would you mind please addressing my response to your post. I’m sure you just missed it, but I am very curious as to your response.

Thanks.

Hi Steve, my apologies for my oversight…

I would be delighted to answer your questions. If you wouldn’t mind, may I open a dialogue with you on this matter so we can provide some context? If you are uncomfortable with the question I propose (which will provide a good foundation to answer your question) then please tell me and I will just answer your question (if that makes sense??) ( ) ))

So here’s the question:
How did Jesus fulfil the following criteria required to be entitled the Messiah?

1. have the correct genealogy by being descended from King David and king Solomon
   (I Chonicles 17, 11 and 22, 10 / Jeremiah 33, 17)
2. be anointed King of Israel
   (Deuteronomy 17, 15)
3. return the Jewish people to Israel
   (Isaiah 27, 12)
   (Isaiah 11, 12)
4. rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem
   (Micah 4, 1)
5. bring peace to the world and end all war
   (Micah 4, 3)
   (Isaiah 2, 4)
   (Isaiah 11, 6)
6. bring knowledge of God to the world
7. The criteria pointed out in Ezehiel chapter 37 24-28

24 “My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd; and they will walk in My ordinances and keep My statutes and observe them. 25 They will live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant, in which your fathers lived; and they will live on it, they, and their sons and their sons’ sons, forever; and David My servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will [a]place them and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever. 27 My dwelling place also will be with them; and I will be their Gd, and they will be My people. 28 And the nations will know that I am the L.rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever.”

How did Jesus fulfil some or all of these prophecies?

 

[daler]

To answer the question why I treat Baha’i with respect and hopefully love:

The Good Samaritan
Luke 10:25-37

Jesus loved to tell a good story to make a point, and The Good Samaritan is one of His most famous stories of all.
.

Little Star,
I love it when you come in here with your six guns blazing like Annie Oakley…

You really make me laugh, lift my spirits, and bring focus to what its really all about:

“Love thy neighbor as thyself.”

. Oh… by the way… have you seen any good Samaritans around here? I fell down and can’t get up… ;’’-(

 

[daler]

Servant, would you mind please addressing my response to your post. I’m sure you just missed it, but I am very curious as to your response.

Thanks.

Steve,
Sorry. I’ve been kind of busy for a couple of days, but wanted to help respond to some of your questions.
I think it has been mentioned before, but Baha’is view the prophecy of Jesus talking about His return “as lightening cometh out of the east to the west, so shall the coming of the Son of Man be” as referring to Baha’u’llah coming from the East to the West, from Elam to Akka, in correlation to what Daniel, Jeremiah, Micah, and others have said.
That is actually what we believe, and is our position. It is not to be taken alone, but along with a great big pile of other prophecies of both time and place. I think that you believe in our sincerity, and suspect that you don’t hold us all to be naive, even though some of our interpretations go beyond what is traditional in the understanding of some of these prophecies.
Part of how we base our views is in the belief that Baha’u’llah has revealed that which was “sealed” to Daniel in his books, to John the Revelator, etc. We believe this, and it is not based upon conjecture, but on thorough readings of, for example, the Book of Certitude (Kitab-i-Iqan), written by Baha’u’llah to an uncle of the Bab who asked many questions. There is more in that one book which “unseals” those hidden meanings, images, and symbolism in the Books of Daniel and Revelation that are logical, and theologically sound, than anything written in the past couple of thousand years.

For example. Regarding “There shall be a new heaven and a new earth”.

We can look at this and hope for a “physical” change, or a replacement of the physical “heaven” and physical “earth”, and wait and see if this will ever happen, or we can consider what Baha’u’llah says about it. I’ll do my best to explain it here:

The “heaven” of revelation is an outpouring of a “new” heavenly revelation from God, through His Mouthpiece, to mankind. Even as the earth receives the rain from the physical heavens, and new plants and crops grow and produce fruit, so too this refers to the “earth” of men’s understanding of the this new heavenly outpouring, this new revelation, for those who receive it. The new “plants and crops”, so to speak, are the effect upon the hearts of men, how they “respond” to this heavenly outpouring.
The Baha’is believe that The Kingdom of God on earth is unfolding before the eyes of humanity, spiritually, and also physically, in the reorganization of social and spiritual, as well as material life of humanity. Not everyone can see it, for their eyes are directed elsewhere, yet its evidences are manifest in cities and villages, tribes and nations all over the planet.
We believe in the One Fold and One Shepherd, that it is taking place, but like the Jews who refused to acknowledge Jesus because He didn’t conquer the Romans and outwardly fulfill some of their prophecies, people with certain literal expectations are not yet noticing the transformation of human society on local and global levels because it is taking place on a “natural” level, that is, human to human, group to group, etc.
This is how the Gospel was spread, was it not? From human to human, town to town, in a process which took centuries. Is this not how the Church of Jesus Christ was spread?
Or was in an Abra Cadabra singular moment? Was it “magical”? Or was it organic and social. Those who “got” the message of Jesus “became” good Samaritans, and gradually, this Church of good Samaritans grew until it spread all over the entire planet.
The message of Baha’u’llah is also organic and natural, and being spread from soul to soul, village to village. It is not a Presto! Chango! Instant Kodac moment, but a gradual unfoldment, and it is taking place considerably faster than it has ever taken place in past Dispensations because the means and mechanisms, the powers and potentialities latent in humanity have been unleashed. Our ability to converse on the Internet is just one of those evidences and means of acceleration of this process.

“The earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the Glory of God as the waters cover the sea.” Habbakuk 2:14

We might interpret this to mean that some kind of dazzling aspect of God is spread over the world, or, as Baha’is believe, we can gain another understanding of this by translating a few words into Arabic and view it from another perspective entirely:

“The earth shall be filled with the knowledge of Baha’u’llah as the waters cover the sea.”

And doing the same with the vision of Stephen in Acts 7:55

“But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the Glory of God and Jesus standing on the right hand of God”

“But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw Baha’u’llah and Jesus standing on the right hand of God”

or in Ezekial 3:23

“The hand of the LORD was on me there, and He said to me, “Get up, go out to the plain, and there I will speak to you.” 23 So I got up and went out to the plain; and behold, the glory of the LORD was standing there, like the Glory which I saw by the river Chebar, and I fell on my face.”

“The hand of the LORD was on me there, and He said to me, “Get up, go out to the plain, and there I will speak to you.” 23 So I got up and went out to the plain; and behold, Baha’u’llah was standing there, like the Glory (Baha, in Arabic) which I saw by the river Chebar, and I fell on my face.”

In order to “see” this, something like scales must fall from our eyes, like what happened to Paul, before he could recognize Jesus as the Christ. Not “physical” scales…

 

[Porknpie]

God has spoken in Baha’u’llah

Servant,

What support do you have for this argument? I’m asking for brief bullet points and not long explanations. Let me ask a follow up question or two when I see your response.

Pork

 

[Servant19]

Servant,

What support do you have for this argument? I’m asking for brief bullet points and not long explanations. Let me ask a follow up question or two when I see your response.

Pork

Hi Pork, that’s a good question

Bullet points for you:

1. His Word can transform a drug dealing gang member into a saint.
2. He never received any schooling, yet He revealed majestic Writings with such rapidity that it required up to 10 amanuenses (scribes) all working at the same time to record His Words
3. His teachings are EXACTLY what we as individuals and as a global community need today
4. His deeds were inspirational, and He willingly embraced the sufferings heaped upon Him by the political and social entities around Him.
5. He raised several children, all of which were humans that all of us should aspire to emulate, but one of which, Abdu’l-Baha was often regarded by so many as the Messiah Himself, such was the purity of His selfless service to others.
6. If God is love, then He represents the greatest example of love I have ever read, and I have read the Bible, Quran and selected passages from Hindu and Buddhist Scriptures. Baha’u’llah has “raised the bar” on what love truly means.
7. His Words have created a truly UNITED global community. There is, and will always be just one Bahai Faith. This is unique in religious history.
8. To conclude, His teachings form the basis for a new civilization, and for Baha’is, it is CLEARLY evident that EVERY SINGLE PROBLEM that you can see in any society on the planet, is a DIRECT consequence of rejecting Baha’u’llahs Words.

I’m sure others may have other proofs which they may wish to submit, but these are mine

 

[SteveVH]

Hi Steve, my apologies for my oversight…

I would be delighted to answer your questions. If you wouldn’t mind, may I open a dialogue with you on this matter so we can provide some context? If you are uncomfortable with the question I propose (which will provide a good foundation to answer your question) then please tell me and I will just answer your question (if that makes sense??) ( ) ))

First of all, please be assured that I am not uncomfortable in discussing anything with you. I would prefer that you just answer the question, however, for the sake of continuity and clarity. You made a very simple and clear statement; that lightning was used as a metaphor because one might not see it if they blink and that the clouds of heaven represent obscurity rather than the Hebrew understanding that they, instead, represent the dwelling place of God.

I responded, not by stating those quotes in isolation, but rather within the context in which they were given. In addition to Jesus being as visible as lightning which is seen from the east to the west, and coming on the clouds of heaven (the dwelling place of God) with a host of angels led by a loud trumpet call, ** “…the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.”** Rather than some obscure coming which many will miss, no one on earth will be able to escape it. It will, literally, be as subtle as an earth quake.

So yes, before we move on, please just address the points I have made.

Thanks.

 

[arthra]

Pretty clear explanations for the verses can be found in the Writings as follows:

“…in every succeeding Revelation the “sun” and “moon” of the teachings, laws, commandments, and prohibitions which have been established in the preceding Dispensation, and which have overshadowed the people of that age, become darkened, that is, are exhausted, and cease to exert their influence.”

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 39)

“And now, concerning His words – “The sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give light, and the stars shall fall from heaven.” By the terms “sun” and “moon,” mentioned in the writings of the Prophets of God, is not meant solely the sun and moon of the visible universe. Nay rather, manifold are the meanings they have intended for these terms. In every instance they have attached to them a particular significance. Thus, by the “sun” in one sense is meant those Suns of Truth Who rise from the dayspring of ancient glory, and fill the world with a liberal effusion of grace from on high.”

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 32)

The term “suns” hath many a time been applied in the writings of the “immaculate Souls” unto the Prophets of God, those luminous Emblems of Detachment. Among those writings are the following words recorded in the “Prayer of Nudbih”:[1] “Whither are gone the resplendent Suns? Whereunto have departed those shining Moons and sparkling Stars?” Thus, it hath become evident that the terms “sun,” “moon,” and “stars” primarily signify the Prophets of God, the saints, and their companions, those Luminaries, the light of Whose knowledge hath shed illumination upon the worlds of the visible and the invisible.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 32)

“The heaven of every religion hath been rent, and the earth of human understanding been cleft asunder, and the angels of God are seen descending. Say: This is the Day of mutual deceit; whither do ye flee? The mountains have passed away, and the heavens have been folded together, and the whole earth is held within His grasp, could ye but understand it.”
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 45)

 

[SteveVH]

Steve,
Sorry. I’ve been kind of busy for a couple of days, but wanted to help respond to some of your questions.
I think it has been mentioned before, but Baha’is view the prophecy of Jesus talking about His return “as lightening cometh out of the east to the west, so shall the coming of the Son of Man be” as referring to Baha’u’llah coming from the East to the West, from Elam to Akka, in correlation to what Daniel, Jeremiah, Micah, and others have said.
That is actually what we believe, and is our position. It is not to be taken alone, but along with a great big pile of other prophecies of both time and place. I think that you believe in our sincerity, and suspect that you don’t hold us all to be naive, even though some of our interpretations go beyond what is traditional in the understanding of some of these prophecies.

Daler, you are correct in that I believe you and the others of the Baha’i faith are sincere. I wish sincerity was a measure of truth, but it is not. I have met many atheists who are also very sincere. It is an objective truth that two contradicting propositions cannot at the same time be true, therefore, assuming one is true, the other cannot be. That has been the basis of my argument from the beginning and is the reason that embracing Muhammad, Zoroaster, Buddha, and Jesus as all being a manifestation of Truth, while each contradicts the other in one or many areas, is, on its face, a fallacious path to follow.

Rather than arriving at a belief through discernment of Jesus’ words, you instead begin with a belief and then bend and twist the words of Jesus and his disciples to conform to this preconceived belief. You begin with a proposition that all of these so-called manifestations of God are saying the same thing and then, when confronted with fact that they are not at all saying the same thing, you choose this and that, and ignore this and that, until you justify your position.

One must look at everything said by Muhammad and Zoroaster and Buddha and Jesus; not just pick and choose those things which support one’s pre-conceived position.

Example: You accept the Muslim position that Jesus was not resurrected, yes? The central message of Christianity is that Christ came to defeat sin and death and the sign of his victory is the resurrection. Would you not agree that this is a blatant contradiction in belief? As Paul said, if Christ has not been resurrected then we are to be pitied among all men. Yet while rejecting the very sign of Christ’s victory over sin and death, which is his resurrection, you still claim to accept Jesus as a manifestation of God and the Christian Scriptures as sacred texts.

Specifically, within the context of the Baha’i belief that Baha’ullah is the second coming of Christ, I provided evidence that that contradicts this claim, using the words of Jesus himself. So why don’t we first address the points I brought up, head on. The Baha’i position is that Christ’s return will be very much like his incarnation and that many will (or have) missed it, just as the Jews missed his first coming. The Christian position, based upon the words of Christ, is that it will be an event that is inescapable by anyone living at that time. The question seems very apropos to the very important claim of Baha’u’llah that he is the second coming of Christ.

 

[Servant19]

First of all, please be assured that I am not uncomfortable in discussing anything with you. I would prefer that you just answer the question, however, for the sake of continuity and clarity. You made a very simple and clear statement; that lightning was used as a metaphor because one might not see it if they blink and that the clouds of heaven represent obscurity rather than the Hebrew understanding that they, instead, represent the dwelling place of God.

I responded, not by stating those quotes in isolation, but rather within the context in which they were given. In addition to Jesus being as visible as lightning which is seen from the east to the west, and coming on the clouds of heaven (the dwelling place of God) with a host of angels led by a loud trumpet call, ** “…the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.”** Rather than some obscure coming which many will miss, no one on earth will be able to escape it. It will, literally, be as subtle as an earth quake.

So yes, before we move on, please just address the points I have made.

Thanks.

No problem Steve, I’m happy to go ahead.

If I may, I am going to reference Baha’u’llah directly, since He has directly addressed the verses that you wish to have clarified.

Please also be aware of one thing. The Baha’i Faith considers the physical universe as not being reality at all. The physical universe is a SYMBOLIC representation of true reality, which is the spiritual Worlds of God. All references to the physical plane in all the Holy Books from the beginning of time are actually a symbolic representation to a deeper spiritual reality. We can talk more about this later if you wish, but it relates directly to prophecies related to Jesus’ First and Second Coming

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-1.html.utf8?query=stars&action=highlight#gr31
(you may wish to start from paragraph 24 on this link and then continue onto the next link)

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-2.html

Please feel free to ask if there is even a slight confusion about the meaning behind any of the Arabic terminologies used

God bless

 

[Servant19]

haha…arthra and I are starting to post the same things!

arthra, this is true unity…when we both write the same thing at the same time!!

Allah’u’Abha sweet brother

 

[Servant19]

Daler, you are correct in that I believe you and the others of the Baha’i faith are sincere. I wish sincerity was a measure of truth, but it is not. I have met many atheists who are also very sincere. It is an objective truth that two contradicting propositions cannot at the same time be true, therefore, assuming one is true, the other cannot be. That has been the basis of my argument from the beginning and is the reason that embracing Muhammad, Zoroaster, Buddha, and Jesus as all being a manifestation of Truth, while each contradicts the other in one or many areas, is, on its face, a fallacious path to follow.

Rather than arriving at a belief through discernment of Jesus’ words, you instead begin with a belief and then bend and twist the words of Jesus and his disciples to conform to this preconceived belief. You begin with a proposition that all of these so-called manifestations of God are saying the same thing and then, when confronted with fact that they are not at all saying the same thing, you choose this and that, and ignore this and that, until you justify your position.

One must look at everything said by Muhammad and Zoroaster and Buddha and Jesus; not just pick and choose those things which support one’s pre-conceived position.

Example: You accept the Muslim position that Jesus was not resurrected, yes? The central message of Christianity is that Christ came to defeat sin and death and the sign of his victory is the resurrection. Would you not agree that this is a blatant contradiction in belief? As Paul said, if Christ has not been resurrected then we are to be pitied among all men. Yet while rejecting the very sign of Christ’s victory over sin and death, which is his resurrection, you still claim to accept Jesus as a manifestation of God and the Christian Scriptures as sacred texts.

Specifically, within the context of the Baha’i belief that Baha’ullah is the second coming of Christ, I provided evidence that that contradicts this claim, using the words of Jesus himself. So why don’t we first address the points I brought up, head on. The Baha’i position is that Christ’s return will be very much like his incarnation and that many will (or have) missed it, just as the Jews missed his first coming. The Christian position, based upon the words of Christ, is that it will be an event that is inescapable by anyone living at that time. The question seems very apropos to the very important claim of Baha’u’llah that he is the second coming of Christ.

Hi Steve, when you say that we have bent and twisted the words of Jesus, is there a specific verse that you have in mind?

Also, Baha’is are not saying that all the Manifestations of God are “saying the same thing”, not at all. Baha’is say that the FOUNDATION is one, namely the edification of souls towards their Creator.

This message may contradict at certain times due to the necessities for EDUCATION of certain populations during certain eras

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

According to Baha’i Faith:

What specifically is it about the Catholic Faith that makes it corrupt from the true faith of Baha’i?

 

[arthra]

Steve wrote above:

“Example: You accept the Muslim position that Jesus was not resurrected, yes? The central message of Christianity is that Christ came to defeat sin and death and the sign of his victory is the resurrection. Would you not agree that this is a blatant contradiction in belief?”

Comment:

I don’t think we do accept the “Muslim position”… Many Muslims believe Christ was not crucified… We believe He was crucified…

We believe He was spiritually resurrected not physically … so in that respect we would differ with people who believe in a physical resurrection.

The Qur’an says in 4:158

“Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise”

Here is a spiritual resurrection we would suggest not a physical one…

 

[arthra]

According to Baha’i Faith:

What specifically is it about the Catholic Faith that makes it corrupt from the true faith of Baha’i?

Their contention centered around the fact that the vague and inconclusive words, addressed by Christ to Peter, “Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,” could never justify the extreme measures, the elaborate ceremonials, the fettering creeds and dogmas, with which His successors have gradually burdened and obscured His Faith.
(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 20)

 

[daler]

Example: You accept the Muslim position that Jesus was not resurrected, yes? The central message of Christianity is that Christ came to defeat sin and death and the sign of his victory is the resurrection. Would you not agree that this is a blatant contradiction in belief? As Paul said, if Christ has not been resurrected then we are to be pitied among all men. Yet while rejecting the very sign of Christ’s victory over sin and death, which is his resurrection, you still claim to accept Jesus as a manifestation of God and the Christian Scriptures as sacred texts.

Specifically, within the context of the Baha’i belief that Baha’ullah is the second coming of Christ, I provided evidence that that contradicts this claim, using the words of Jesus himself. So why don’t we first address the points I brought up, head on. The Baha’i position is that Christ’s return will be very much like his incarnation and that many will (or have) missed it, just as the Jews missed his first coming. The Christian position, based upon the words of Christ, is that it will be an event that is inescapable by anyone living at that time. The question seems very apropos to the very important claim of Baha’u’llah that he is the second coming of Christ.

Steve,
. Please begin with reading, or rereading, Arthra’s post 314. This is critical to understanding the Baha’i view of the Resurrection in light of what is revealed in the Quran:

The Qur’an says in 4:158 “Rather, Allah raised him to Himself.”

Clearly, at least to me, this indicates that Jesus “was” definitely Resurrected, according to what has been “revealed” to Muhammad in the Quran.

. It is also true that, according to certain translations into English, the crucifixion “appears” to be denied, but this is interpreted in an important wider context, i.e., that His Eternal Reality was not, indeed “can not” be crucified, “but it “appeared” to them they did.”
Then it goes on to say, “Neither did they kill Him”.

This leaves room for the crucifixion of His body, even as someone might steal my clothes and crucify my coat and pants. “I” am not my coat and pants. So when they “kill” my clothing, they have not killed “me”. Although it “appeared” to them they did so.

Did they kill His body? Yes. Without doubt. Baha’u’llah speaks of this very clearly, so the Baha’i position is clear: Jesus was crucified.

Do all Muslims accept this interpretation in the way that Baha’is do? No. Most definitely not, but I believe that some have the latitude of understanding such things, whether the common view or not.

. For example. There are many Muslims who are awaiting the coming of Jesus in the literal clouds in essentially the same way that most Christians await His coming. This is common belief amongst many Muslims. There have been, however, movements within Islam of views which interpret the Return of Jesus as similar to the way Baha’is view His Return.
. Therefore, Steve, what is an “apparent” contradiction between Christian, Muslim, and Baha’i belief is fully resolved and there “is no contradiction” when understood this way.
. As you know, the Return of Elijah in John the Baptist was testified to by Christ Himself. Jesus said that John the Baptist is the “Elijah who was to come” in Matthew 11:13 … The phrase “if you are willing to accept it"
. So my question to you, Steve, is whether you accept it? as Jesus stated?
. And if you are willing to accept it, that John came in “the spirit and power of Elijah”, then what would prevent you from accepting that Baha’u’llah came in the spirit and power of Jesus" Or the possibility of that. I’m not asking you to accept Baha’u’llah based upon that, but mean only to say that His 2nd coming could also be in the birth of another baby, a person separate in identity from Jesus, son of Mary, even as John was not physically identical to Elijah. For the same principal applies. Please respond.

The Baha’i view of the Resurrection of Jesus is that His body did not get up out of the physical grave, walk about, and float off into space. We reject that literalism while fully understanding that it appears to be contradictory to the literal story communicated in the Gospels.
. Two things are necessary to consider.

1. Either the Baha’i interpretation is considered “fantastic”, that is, that He “was” Resurrected while His body was not, despite the manner in which His Resurrection has been reported, i.e. walking, talking, eating, and appearing in a room suddenly, “He entered the room, not using the doors”
2. Or that the equally “fantastic” reports of His body physically arising, eating, floating through walls, and ascending into outer space is true.

Either interpretation may be regarded as “fantastic”.

1. Either that “stories” were told in a certain contextual manner and in a literal way to express “His Presence” to a very “literal minded” people, and that being in the context of what is commonly found in the study of human anthropology in the history of cultures world wide…
2. or that it was a literal occurrence, which requires us to believe He died, walked through walls, and went into outer space, which leaves us wondering “where” physically, He has resided all this time.

. Steve,
. Please respond as to which “fantastic” interpretation seems more plausible, in your opinion.
. Also, whether acceptable or not, do you find the Baha’i position to be “reasonable” at all?

Respectfully, daler

 

[SteveVH]

Pretty clear explanations for the verses can be found in the Writings as follows:

“…in every succeeding Revelation the “sun” and “moon” of the teachings, laws, commandments, and prohibitions which have been established in the preceding Dispensation, and which have overshadowed the people of that age, become darkened, that is, are exhausted, and cease to exert their influence.”

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 39)

And now, concerning His words – “The sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give light, and the stars shall fall from heaven.” By the terms “sun” and “moon,” mentioned in the writings of the Prophets of God, is not meant solely the sun and moon of the visible universe.

Nay rather, manifold are the meanings they have intended for these terms. In every instance they have attached to them a particular significance. Thus, by the “sun” in one sense is meant those Suns of Truth Who rise from the dayspring of ancient glory, and fill the world with a liberal effusion of grace from on high."

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 32)

The term “suns” hath many a time been applied in the writings of the “immaculate Souls” unto the Prophets of God, those luminous Emblems of Detachment. Among those writings are the following words recorded in the “Prayer of Nudbih”:[1] “Whither are gone the resplendent Suns? Whereunto have departed those shining Moons and sparkling Stars?” Thus, it hath become evident that the terms “sun,” “moon,” and “stars” primarily signify the Prophets of God, the saints, and their companions, those Luminaries, the light of Whose knowledge hath shed illumination upon the worlds of the visible and the invisible.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 32)

“The heaven of every religion hath been rent, and the earth of human understanding been cleft asunder, and the angels of God are seen descending. Say: This is the Day of mutual deceit; whither do ye flee? The mountains have passed away, and the heavens have been folded together, and the whole earth is held within His grasp, could ye but understand it.”

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 45)

Clear explanations? If one wishes to claim that everything that Jesus spoke was coded in metaphor, I suppose one is free to make that claim. It does not, however, comport with over 2000 years of exegesis by some the greatest intellects in the world. It does not comport with the understanding of the early Church Fathers, some of whom were contemporaries of the Apostles who walked with Jesus, or their students. If Christians have a misguided understanding of Jesus’ words, then they misunderstood from the start, beginning with his appointed Apostles. The consistency of Catholic teaching from the beginning, can be easily demonstrated. It did not become darkened over time.

I find it absolutely incredible that one would attempt to deny the fact that the verses I have given do not clearly convey the message that this will be a staggering event that no one on the face of the earth can escape. All the flowery language and beautiful metaphors in the world cannot change this.

If Baha’u’llah is the second coming of Christ, then where is he? He is dead and buried. Are you waiting for yet another?

 

[daler]

…

One must look at everything said by Muhammad and Zoroaster and Buddha and Jesus; not just pick and choose those things which support one’s pre-conceived position.

Example: You accept the Muslim position that Jesus was not resurrected, yes?

As Paul said, if Christ has not been resurrected then we are to be pitied among all men. … the very sign of Christ’s victory over sin and death…

… So why don’t we first address the points I brought up, head on. The Baha’i position is that Christ’s return will be very much like his incarnation and that many will (or have) missed it, just as the Jews missed his first coming. The Christian position, based upon the words of Christ, is that it will be an event that is inescapable by anyone living at that time. The question seems very apropos to the very important claim of Baha’u’llah that he is the second coming of Christ.

Steve,
. Forgive me if I am writing too much. I mean not to go on and on, taking more words than should be necessary to state a case. My intent in continuing to answer is to address your most valid point where “contradictions” do appear to be irreconcilable.

. This matter is not “glossed over” by Baha’is. Nor is it conveniently “rationalized” and made to go away. Many have wrestled these issues to the ground and have not given up until the light of understanding and resolving these issues becomes clear and reasonable.

. Briefly, to recapitulate, we find that, as Arthra stated, the Muslim view “does allow” that Jesus’ body was crucified and that He “was” in fact Resurrected, and this accords with Baha’i view, including acceptable criteria for Christians such as myself who believe in Baha’u’llah.

. We agree very much with you that “on the face of it” there are contradictions. We believe that this is due to two (or more) reasons. Either symbolic Scriptural statements have been interpreted as needing to be fulfilled literally, and thus will never be fulfilled, or that such statements must be interpreted in light of reasonable explanations, including the understanding of metaphorical intentions and imagery.
. A third aspect of this, as previously argued, is that very ancient texts following many centuries old traditions are unreliable. Again, reason must be applied to accept or reject such traditions, and this view does not diminish or degrade religious understanding.

. I think you wish to have addressed Paul’s statement on the Resurrection of Jesus as conquering death. The Baha’i view is that the mortality of the body is certain while the immortality of the soul is equally certain.

. This is reinforced Biblically in Jesus’ own words: “Let the dead bury the dead”

. Hence, when we understand that Jesus Lives, despite the death of His body, and “come to know”, not just believe, that He Lives and is amongst us

“Where ever two or three gather and make mention of Me, there I am also”

Then clearly, what applies is the recognition that He Lives and is amongst us, despite not being physically present. That His Presence is not associated with a physical body. That although His physical body was crucified and killed, He conquered death, and is visible “to those who have eyes to see”

As to Christ’s coming being an inescapable reality apparent to all who live on earth, this too is true.

Isaiah 40:5
. “Then the glory of the LORD will be revealed, And all flesh will see it together; For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.”

. “Then Baha’u’llah will be revealed, And all flesh will see it together; For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.”

. “Together” means Unity. All flesh, or people, who are in the Unity of His Fold see Him, or recognize Him, “together”. We Baha’is “see” Him. We recognize Him, together, in the Unity of the One Fold and the One Shepherd, which fulfillment has, or is, occurring throughout the world amongst people of “every” nation, race, religion, tribe, class, etc.

. Philippians 2:10-11

. “So that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

. “So that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to Baha’u’llah.”

. “ALL” Baha’is recognize Jesus as the Messiah, whether Jewish Baha’is, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Native American Bahais, even former atheists.

, “the Son of Man, will come in the glory of my Father with his angels.”

. “the Son of Man, will come in Baha’u’llah with his angels.”

Who are His angels? Those who have detached themselves from carnal pursuits and earthly corruption, and clung to the breath of the Holy Spirit.
They are not “winged” creatures flying down from a literal Heaven, i.e. outer space. This is fantasy, if interpreted literally, and pure imagination.
Such things “must” be interpreted with the faculty of reason, and not with Hollywood imagery.
Children “imagine” Santa comes down the chimney. He does not come this way, but rather through the unseen love of his/her parents and others.
God’s Unseen Heaven bestows understanding and grace through the vehicle of His Manifestations, Who bring us His Revelation in conformity with His will and good-pleasure.

Enough for now

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

JCC:
Now I don’t know if it was subtlety on your part that said “he provided a path to redemption,” (emphasis mine) but the point Hebrews is to say he offers the only way to salvation, not merely a way we can pick or choose, perhaps go Muhammad’s way instead. We must also remember that there was not this concept of Christ being the manifestations that bahai believe used in the book of Hebrews, rather the author is clearly talking about Jesus the Christ in all circumstances and limits it to him. The author never considers Moses and certaintly doesn’t consider Krishna or the others you believe (because they were unimportant to the early church) the messiah, that is the domain of Jesus alone.

Heb 7 23 Of those other priests there was a succession, since death denied them permanence; 24 whereas Jesus continues for ever, and his priestly office is unchanging; 25 that is why he can give eternal salvation to those who through him make their way to God; he lives on still to make intercession on our behalf. 26 Such was the high priest that suited our need, holy and guiltless and undefiled, not reckoned among us sinners, lifted high above all the heavens; 27 one who has no need to do as those other priests did, offering a twofold sacrifice day by day, first for his own sins, then for those of the people. What he has done he has done once for all; and the offering was himself. 28 The law makes high priests of men, and men are frail; promise and oath, now, have superseded the law; our high priest, now, is that Son who has reached his full achievement for all eternity.

Some bahai in response have suggested that each manifestation has sacrified himself for his peoples sins but that simply isn’t present here in the epistle to the Hebrews, jesus himself, no one else is the eternal high priest and mediator whom makes atonement for ones sins by his one sacrifice. He has done it once for all, not once and then we needed Mirza Hussain and then we needed Muhammad, but once for all time. This is the theology of Hebrews and to try and pretend that it is bahai in character given the extremely high Christology presented in this wonderful epistle is a tad misguided I believe. So despite you saying Mirza Hussain has done all the things Christ has done, I will contend that he has done nothing that Jesus has done and is impotent in everyway compared to Jesus. I do not owe my salvation to Mirza Hussain but I owe it to Jesus of Nazereth and you saying they are both the same Christ doesn’t help you in making your case. For what does it mean to say that Mirza Hussain is the Christ? The same Christ hat Jesus is? Christ means anointed one, anointed obviously of God, and there were certaintly different Christ’s in the old testament, the one messiah (Christ) however being different from the rest.

So I’m a bit mystified as to how me attributing things to Christ means we can attribute things to mirza Hussain. I will ask the bahai again, did Mirza HUssain die on the cross two thousand years ago? Bahai have made it clear that there are different manifestations and not one single person who is a manifestation sharing different bodies. For the only way to maintain what you are claiming is to say that Mirza Hussain was the one that died on the cross and that simply wasn’t the case, Mirza Hussain was created in fairly modern times and was killed by gunfire and is in a grave whereas Christ has resurrected. A further quote from Hebrews.

25 Nor does he make a repeated offering of himself, as the high priest, when he enters the sanctuary, makes a yearly offering of the blood that is not his own. 26 If that were so, he must have suffered again and again, ever since the world was created; as it is, he has been revealed once for all, at the moment when history reached its fulfilment, annulling our sin by his sacrifice. 27 Man’s destiny is to die once for all; nothing remains after that but judgement; 28 and Christ was offered once for all, to drain the cup of a world’s sins; when we see him again, sin will play its part no longer, he will be bringing salvation to those who await his coming.[8]

This sacrifice cannot be repeated so the sacrifice which you must accept as atoning for your sins did not come from Mirza Hussain but Jesus Christ, whom is your creator, whom will be your judge, whom will be the one you are accountable to and is the one who will decide your eternal destiny. In this regaurd I would like to ask, since bahai have no trouble affirming that Jesus created them, will judge them and is the sustainer of all things what makes Jesus different from that entity you call God? What does your God do that the son of God cannot?

Insofar as history is concerned we do not see any bahai like Christian movement in the early church. The closest group that comes remotely close is the gnostics who seemed to reject the material world in favour of a purely spiritual existence, bahai could agree with them. The gnostics cannot be said to be the true Christians by Bahai however because the quran and the writings of your own prophet speak against this, the quran says the true Christians would be victorious and in order to be victorious one needs to exist and the gnostics don’t exist anymore. Also directly implied by your prophet is the supremecy of Peter and the belief in some credence in the roman catholic church, a claim which mystifies me because if he knew what roman catholics believed he would have taken great pains to dissociate from them. The early church presents one of the biggest problems for bahai in that bahai can find no one that matches their beliefs, some bahais have desperately tried to bring some of the saints to their side but they have done little in reading about these figures and often rely on single quotes they have gathered through a google search.