Baha'i Returns Thread: Ask Any of Many Baha'i

[Servant19]

And we keep coming back to the same issue, again and again. The Baha’i faith embraces Muhammad as a prophet and Manifestation of God, yet rejects his teaching on the crucifixion of Jesus, saying that he actually meant something else. .

Ok Steve, I stopped reading the rest of your post from right here.

When a religion talks about eternal life, an afterlife, life after death etc etc, it is very difficult to ascertain what the TRUE meaning of scripture is when it talks about “Mr. X was not killed” or “Mr Y was still alive”

Does that make sense.

When Muhammad says in the Quran that Jesus was not crucified and was taken up to Allah, Baha’u’llah is not GOING AGAINST or REJECTING Muhammad when He says that this refers to Jesus’ eternal Spirit living on beyond his “physical death”

It simply is not a rejection, but an understanding put forward for all to consider.

After consideration some would say that this is rubbish, and some would say well, that makes a lot of sense.

Its not rejecting Muhammad, its rejecting what hearsay, whisperers and naysayers have developed into a so called “official interpretation”

Who else but God Himself knows exactly (EXACTLY) what Muhammad meant by “Jesus was not crucified”?

 

[Servant19]

Here is a question that I asked which Servant19 referred me to this thread.

What is Bahai’s definition of God and human respectively?

Thanks.

Hi Reuben, thankyou for your question

God, in His essence, is indefinable, to put it very simply.

This article will give a relatively definitive understanding of God according to Baha’u’llah’s Revelation:

info.bahai.org/article-1-4-0-2.html

 

[Reuben_J]

Hi Reuben, thankyou for your question

God, in His essence, is indefinable, to put it very simply.

This article will give a relatively definitive understanding of God according to Baha’u’llah’s Revelation:

info.bahai.org/article-1-4-0-2.html

Thanks Servant19. I will take note of this and I will go into the link provided. But you see it would be mush easier when such defintion is given in simple language and summarized. Sometimes we have become very lazy and the brain does not compute very well. We just want to be told of it.

I agree that God is indefinable. From the Christian’s perspective what we know of God is that much what he has revealed to us.

 

[Servant19]

Here is a question that I asked which Servant19 referred me to this thread.

What is Bahai’s definition of God and human respectively?

Thanks.

And here’s a few articles on human nature:

info.bahai.org/article-1-4-0-5.html
info.bahai.org/article-1-4-5-1.html (very nice explanations here)
info.bahai.org/article-1-3-2-25.html

please feel free to ask as many questions as you wish

God bless

 

[arthra]

Also the Qur’an elsewhere says the Martyrs should not be seen as “dead” or killed.

"…most Muslims maintain that Jesus was not crucified, but one who looked like Him was instead, based on their understanding of Qur’án 4:156. Shoghi Effendi, however, states that the Qur’ánic passage indicates that the spiritual reality of Christ was beyond crucifixion, not that His body escaped such a fate (Lights of Guidance, 1646, 1652, 1669); this resolves an apparent contradiction between Islam and Christianity. "

Abdul-Baha though also commented on the Qur’anic verse saying the the Spirit of Christ could not be crucified and that those who crucified Him were hoping they had killed His Cause… The disciples later rallied and understood that the martrydom of Jesus was not the end and that the Cause of Christ was “resurrected” spiritually:

“We do not believe that there was a bodily resurrection after the Crucifixion of Christ, but that there was a time after His Ascension when His disciples perceived spiritually His true greatness and realized He was eternal in being. This is what has been reported symbolically in the New Testament and been misunderstood. His eating with His disciples after resurrection is the same thing.”

9 October 1947 to an individual believer

 

[Servant19]

Thanks Servant19. I will take note of this and I will go into the link provided. But you see it would be mush easier when such defintion is given in simple language and summarized. Sometimes we have become very lazy and the brain does not compute very well. We just want to be told of it.

I agree that God is indefinable. From the Christian’s perspective what we know of God is that much what he has revealed to us.

Hi Reuben.

Reading is critical. As Baha’is we would consider it offensive to not read the official teaching first, and then ask questions about it later. Fruitful discussions can be had when the official teaching is “referenced” when having a discussion, otherwise it just becomes my own imagination and petty-minded understanding, possibly conveying to you FALSEHOOD.

…but we want TRUTH, yes?

We should ALWAYS use the official teachings as a guide.

Please read what you can and we can discuss your understandings and my understandings together

 

[Reuben_J]

@ Servant19.

I like this part:

To summarize: the Bahá’í view of God is that His essence is eternally transcendent, but that His attributes and qualities are completely immanent in the Manifestations.9 Since our knowledge of anything is limited to our knowledge of the perceptible attributes of that thing, knowledge of the Manifestations is (for ordinary humans) equivalent to knowledge of God.10 In practical terms, this knowledge is gained through study, prayer, meditation, and practical application based on the revealed Word of God (i.e., the sacred scriptures of the Manifestations).

I would say the “Manifestations” is roughly comparable to what I said “what God has revealed to us”. I don’t know if you agree to that. Though of course there is perceptible difference as to “what God has revealed to us” respectively.

 

[Reuben_J]

Hi Reuben.

Reading is critical. As Baha’is we would consider it offensive to not read the official teaching first, and then ask questions about it later. Fruitful discussions can be had when the official teaching is “referenced” when having a discussion, otherwise it just becomes my own imagination and petty-minded understanding, possibly conveying to you FALSEHOOD.

…but we want TRUTH, yes?

We should ALWAYS use the official teachings as a guide.

Please read what you can and we can discuss your understandings and my understandings together

Yes, agree with you sincerely. I was saying in the context of forum posting where there is not much time to study. I would be careful though not to go into areas which I do not know. Asking questions and getting answers would always help, at least for the immediate needs.

 

[SteveVH]

Steve, of course if someone came along and said to me that they are the Return of Jesus Christ, and I should just follow them blindly and do as they say and do with no noticeable positive effect on anyone, I would struggle very hard to believe them!

The question you should be asking is, what is it that Baha’u’llah has brought to the table through His Revelation that almost forces the hand of Baha’is to totally and unequivocally accept everything that Baha’u’llah explains about these signs.

I assure you, that thing He has brought is stupendous!

I keep hearing this. If it is so stupendous why don’t you go ahead and enlighten all of us here on CAF. So far all I have seen is “we have something really great, trust me”.

I assure no Catholic has ever looked at these explanations first and thought “Wow! That all makes sense, I’m converting from Catholicism to Bahai”…the subject of conversation in this thread is totally a secondary matter for Baha’is. It is the FRUITS of Baha’u’llah that are of primary concern, and they are stupendous

Okay, I’ll bite once again. What are these fruits that are so stupendous?

What is it that has caused a poster here named ChristIsTheWay, a prayer warrior of the Catholic forum to convert to Bahai? I assure you, it’s not Baha’u’llahs explanation of sun, moon and star. What is that has caused innumerable Catholic clergy to do the same?

Does that make sense?

As for ChristIsTheWay, I have no idea of his level of knowledge concerning the Catholic Church or his reasons for leaving. Yes, we do have Catholics who leave the Church. I think it is safe to say that very few of these migrate to the Baha’i faith in comparison to other faiths. When a Church has 1.3 billion members you are bound to experience some of them leaving for other faiths. However, the Church is growing, not shrinking, so we are bringing in many more than are leaving.

Innumerable Catholic Clergy? That means too many to be counted. Maybe this is why we have a shortage in priests. Please give me your source for these innumerable Catholic clergy that have converted.

 

[Servant19]

The Baha’i pick and choose what appeals to them and conforms to their philosophy and throw away the rest. None of the followers of the various prophets you embrace agree with your interpretation of their own holy books and the words of their prophets.

Hi Steve, none of the followers of these religions agree with the Baha’i interpretation of their Scripture because they are stuck in the pride of it all.

Jews think they are the ONLY chosen people
Christians think they have ownership over God in Jesus
Muslims think they have the absolute FINAL message from God

Where does it all end.
Baha’u’llah says that this disunity is NOT FROM GOD

God is UNITY.

Its the mixed interpretations from the adherents of these religions to claim “ownership” of God that has enabled such a mess.

Baha’u’llah has come to reveal the true UNITY of God.

There has NEVER been a true, authorized interpreter of ANY religious Scripture until Baha’u’llahs appointment of Abdu’l-Baha as such…

…and what was the outcome?

UNITY, a UNITED Baha’i community.

God is One, there is nothing more…let us humble ourselves in unity, rather than PRIDE ourselves in “exclusivity”

 

[Servant19]

I keep hearing this. If it is so stupendous why don’t you go ahead and enlighten all of us here on CAF. So far all I have seen is “we have something really great, trust me”.

Okay, I’ll bite once again. What are these fruits that are so stupendous?

As for ChristIsTheWay, I have no idea of his level of knowledge concerning the Catholic Church or his reasons for leaving. Yes, we do have Catholics who leave the Church. I think it is safe to say that very few of these migrate to the Baha’i faith in comparison to other faiths. When a Church has 1.3 billion members you are bound to experience some of them leaving for other faiths. However, the Church is growing, not shrinking, so we are bringing in many more than are leaving.

Innumerable Catholic Clergy? That means too many to be counted. Maybe this is why we have a shortage in priests. Please give me your source for these innumerable Catholic clergy that have converted.

Steve, you did not watch the “Frontiers of Learning” video I linked for you?

 

[Servant19]

@ Servant19.

I like this part:

To summarize: the Bahá’í view of God is that His essence is eternally transcendent, but that His attributes and qualities are completely immanent in the Manifestations.9 Since our knowledge of anything is limited to our knowledge of the perceptible attributes of that thing, knowledge of the Manifestations is (for ordinary humans) equivalent to knowledge of God.10 In practical terms, this knowledge is gained through study, prayer, meditation, and practical application based on the revealed Word of God (i.e., the sacred scriptures of the Manifestations).

I would say the “Manifestations” is roughly comparable to what I said “what God has revealed to us”. I don’t know if you agree to that. Though of course there is perceptible difference as to “what God has revealed to us” respectively.

Absolutely I agree with you Reuben It is all as much as has been revealed to us.

We are learning together, and our consciousness is elevated in harmony. This is a dialogue that is pleasing to God’s eyes.

God bless you brother, I must retire to sleep now, but I will hopefully engage in more in-depth exploration with you tomorrow

God bless you friend

 

[arthra]

I appreciate the response. One of the keys to understanding Catholicism is that we are a “both/and” faith and not an “either/or” faith. We believe Christ was referring to Peter’s faith and to his primacy. Some people mistakenly think Catholics believe Christ was only referring to the primacy. But that is not the case.

Something to keep in mind when understanding the context of Peter’s name change is that it was a big deal. The change of the name was something of significance. Jesus changed Simon’s name to Peter. Likewise, Abram’s name was changed to Abraham and Jacob’s name was changed to Israel.

Thanks for your post Stylteralmado! The change of name is important.

 

[daler]

Here is a question that I asked which Servant19 referred me to this thread.

What is Bahai’s definition of God and human respectively?

Thanks.

Reuben,
God is an Unknowable Essence, infinitely beyond words and descriptions or the imaginations of men, no matter how lofty. He is unapproachable except through His Manifestations, Whom He sends as Divine Educators to teach us about God and reveal His will. They are Divine Physicians to heal an ailing humanity.

As to men, we were created to know and worship God. In this we find our fulfillment. We daily recite what is called the noon day prayer:

. “I bear witness, Oh my God, that Thou hast created me to know Thee and to worship Thee. I testify at this moment to my powerlessness and to Thy might, to my poverty and to Thy wealth. There is none other God but Thee. The Help in peril. The Self-subsisting.”

 

[Reuben_J]

Reuben,
God is an Unknowable Essence, infinitely beyond words and descriptions or the imaginations of men, no matter how lofty. He is unapproachable except through His Manifestations, Whom He sends as Divine Educators to teach us about God and reveal His will. They are Divine Physicians to heal an ailing humanity.

As to men, we were created to know and worship God. In this we find our fulfillment. We daily recite what is called the noon day prayer:

. “I bear witness, Oh my God, that Thou hast created me to know Thee and to worship Thee. I testify at this moment to my powerlessness and to Thy might, to my poverty and to Thy wealth. There is none other God but Thee. The Help in peril. The Self-subsisting.”

Hi daler. Another thanks here.

I have no problem with this which sounds very much Christian in many ways. Sorry to bring Christianity here because that’s where I come from.

The difference is we believe that God is truly approachable. He had made great effort for this purpose that he became one of us. He is the Emmanuel, God with us.

He is like a father who wants his children to always come to him. He is always calling on his children that they may feel his presence and experience his providence. He is a living God and is not so far away. He is only a prayer away. When we call and seek him, he would be there to answer us. Probably that is one stark difference between our respective understanding of this one true God.

 

[SteveVH]

Ok Steve, I stopped reading the rest of your post from right here.

When a religion talks about eternal life, an afterlife, life after death etc etc, it is very difficult to ascertain what the TRUE meaning of scripture is when it talks about “Mr. X was not killed” or “Mr Y was still alive”

Does that make sense.

Why is that difficult? It is only difficult if you believe that there is some hidden meaning. Christ came to reveal truth, not hide it.

When Muhammad says in the Quran that Jesus was not crucified and was taken up to Allah, Baha’u’llah is not GOING AGAINST or REJECTING Muhammad when He says that this refers to Jesus’ eternal Spirit living on beyond his “physical death”

What does Jesus’ eternal Spirit living on beyond his physical death have to do with whether or not he was crucified? And how would that make Christ any different from you or me? I certainly believe that my spirit will live on beyond my physical death. Here again, Muslims don’t believe what you just said and he is their prophet. They must reject the crucifixion because they do not believe that Jesus is their Savior, pure and simple.

It simply is not a rejection, but an understanding put forward for all to consider.

Rather, it is a proposition put forward for all to consider. I just don’t find it at all to be a credible proposition.

Its not rejecting Muhammad, its rejecting what hearsay, whisperers and naysayers have developed into a so called “official interpretation”

And so that is the Baha’i view of the major organized religions of the world? That their beliefs and doctrines are a result of "hearsay, whisperers and naysayers? Good to know.

Who else but God Himself knows exactly (EXACTLY) what Muhammad meant by “Jesus was not crucified”?

I would think that anyone who can read and has at least an average intellect would be able to explain what Muhammad meant when he said “Jesus was not crucified”. I means Jesus was not crucified. And this is the understanding of Muslims as to what their prophet meant. Sometimes a statement means what the statement says. Why do you assume that Muhammad was speaking in some kind of code that all of his followers would misinterpret?

The reason that you cannot accept the simple words “Jesus was not crucified” is because it doesn’t conform to your beliefs. In order to accept the premise that Muhammad was a Manifestation of God you are forced to change the meaning of his words, no matter how strained and tortured the process.

Muhammad could not admit that Christ died for our sins because then there would be no need for him. The same is true of Baha’u’llah. If Christ is who Christians claim he is then what need do we have of Baha’u’llah? None. Therefore the story must be changed in order to justify his existence. The motivation is clear, especially with one who seeks to turn all eyes on himself and away from Christ.

 

[daler]

What does Baha’u’llah offer that Jesus Christ has not already accomplished? Can he offer us more than salvation?

Now, I am speaking of the spiritual destiny of an individual. Yes, I know that you claim that there is this great plan out there that will result in world peace and harmony. But what does Baha’u’llah offer me concerning my eternal life that Christ has not already done?

Thanks.

Steve,
. Baha’is believe in “Progressive Revelation”. This is very key to understanding what you are asking. Very central to comprehension of the basic Baha’i principal that God always has more to teach us.

. "The fundamental principle enunciated by Bahá’u’lláh … is that religious truth is not absolute but relative, that Divine Revelation is a continuous and progressive process, that all the great religions of the world are divine in origin, that their basic principles are in complete harmony, that their aims and purposes are one and the same, that their teachings are but facets of one truth, that their functions are complementary, that they differ only in the nonessential aspects of their doctrines, and that their missions represent successive stages in the spiritual evolution of human society… (Shoghi Effendi, The Promised Day is Come, p. v)

. Baha’is do not focus on themselves and their individual salvation so much as the salvation of humanity which, left to itself, is more or less always on the highway to hell. We are assured of forgiveness of sins.
. Think of running a marathon through the desert. You go the first mile or two and there is Abraham offering you some water. You run, your thirst builds, and then you see Moses with another glass of water for you. Further on down the road, Jesus awaits with what you need at that point in your journey.
. We are always on a journey. Our needs along that path vary, but we are always in need of guidance:

. “All men have been created to carry forward an ever-advancing civilization. The Almighty beareth Me witness: To act like the beasts of the field is unworthy of man. Those virtues that befit his dignity are forbearance, mercy, compassion and loving-kindness towards all the peoples and kindreds of the earth. Say: O friends! Drink your fill from this crystal stream that floweth through the heavenly grace of Him Who is the Lord of Names. Let others partake of its waters in My name, that the leaders of men in every land may fully recognize the purpose for which the Eternal Truth hath been revealed, and the reason for which they themselves have been created.” Baha’u’llah

. I think that your question of “what does Baha’u’llah offer me concerning my eternal life that Christ has not already done?” is best understood in the context that they are doing the same thing, but at different stages in your social/spiritual development.
. This can be likened to what a teacher does for a child. Abraham taught me how to count. 1, 2, 3 Thats all I need. Moses taught me how to read: A B C Thats all I need. Jesus taught me to love Johnny. I do. Thats all I need.

. We always need to learn more and integrate into a wider society, and ever-advancing civilization, both spiritual and practical.

. “The earth is but one country, mankind its citizens”

. How do we achieve this understanding on a practical level? He calls for the leaders of the world to agree upon a single universal auxiliary language. He speaks of common standards such as the metric system, a gathering of all nations for an International Tribunal to resolve disputes. When one king makes war on another, He says to the Kings of the world, “Rise ye all against him.” Look at how masterfully that was done in the first Gulf War. Less so following, as humanity is still striving to learn how to succeed in mutually beneficial ways.
. We went through the League of Nations, but without US participation it was destined to fail. The UN is an improvement, but lacks teeth and accountability. Still, it is solid progress and we haven’t had a third world war. There are numerous international treaties and obligations adhered to by the majority of nations of the world.

. You can see these things happening in the world since His Revelation has guided us to these new levels of interaction. Part of this requires people to give up racial, national, and religious prejudice. To advance equality of sexes, educate women, etc.

 

[daler]

What does Jesus’ eternal Spirit living on beyond his physical death have to do with whether or not he was crucified?

I would think that anyone who can read and has at least an average intellect would be able to explain what Muhammad meant when he said “Jesus was not crucified”.

The reason that you cannot accept the simple words “Jesus was not crucified” is because it doesn’t conform to your beliefs. In order to accept the premise that Muhammad was a Manifestation of God you are forced to change the meaning of his words, no matter how strained and tortured the process.

Steve,
. I have read at least 4 translations of that verse of the Quran which vary according to the “understanding” of the one who translated it. A single Arabic word can sometimes have up to a hundred meanings, depending upon usage. Its like what we call “snow”, but for the Eskimos, it means 20 different kinds of snow.

. Please get this part: The One Who said, “Before Abraham was, I am” cannot be put on a cross. That eternal Being is not mortal, nor confined to a mortal frame. That mortal frame in which He appears can be crucified. But “He” is not that mortal frame.

. This is central both to understanding the verse in the Quran and the ascension of Christ after His Resurrection. They both refer to the same thing. That eternal, transcendent Being existed before Abraham and before Jesus, the man.

. We are not changing the words nor distorting the meaning. We are interpreting what those words mean with rational understanding, using our intelligence and knowledge of cultural context. Also, in light of the Revelation of Baha’u’llah much can be learned, for He came to “unseal” that which was “sealed” until the time of the end.

. The “time of the end” referred to the Prophetic Cycle, which lasted from Adam to Muhammad. This is the “Day of God”, the time foreordained to which all prophecy refers, including the Return of Christ in the Glory of the Father.

 

[SteveVH]

Hi Steve, none of the followers of these religions agree with the Baha’i interpretation of their Scripture because they are stuck in the pride of it all.

That is certainly one possibility. The other possibility is that the Baha’i interpretations are just wrong and self serving. The basis of your statement is nothing more than opinion.

Jews think they are the ONLY chosen people

Catholics would agree with the Jews. And we, as Christians, have been included in the covenant as his chosen people through Jesus Christ.

Christians think they have ownership over God in Jesus

No, we do not believe that we have ownership of God. We believe that God sent his only begotten Son to save us from our sins and that this includes all people. Some reject this gift. Christians accept it. We believe the words of our Savior; that he is the Way, the Truth and the Life and that no one comes to the Father except through him.

We do not believe that salvation is exclusive to Christians, even though it is Christ who saves them. We believe that only God can read people’s hearts and only God knows what decisions they have made according to the knowledge they have been given. But the Truth remains in Jesus Christ, even for those who do not know him. He is the answer to every human longing. Those who are seeking God are actually seeking Christ who they do not know. Those who seek to fill the empty place inside are seeking Christ. Some believe they can fill this empty space with alcohol, or drugs, or sex, or money, or some cult figure, or Krishna, or Buddha or Muhammad, or Baha’u’llah. In reality they seek Christ. There is no other.

So we do not claim ownership, we only claim that we have found Him who everyone is seeking.

Muslims think they have the absolute FINAL message from God

Christians believe the same thing. Do not Baha’is believe this? Are you still waiting for someone?

Where does it all end.
Baha’u’llah says that this disunity is NOT FROM GOD

We would agree.

Baha’u’llah has come to reveal the true UNITY of God.

There has NEVER been a true, authorized interpreter of ANY religious Scripture until Baha’u’llahs appointment of Abdu’l-Baha as such…

According to who?

…and what was the outcome?

UNITY, a UNITED Baha’i community.

The Catholic Church has been a unified community for 2000 years. We believe the same doctrines and practice the same mode of worship as did the Church from its foundation. And we do not pride ourselves on “exclusivity”. We welcome all people of the world to join us in worshiping the one, true God in a manner revealed by the one, true God.

The Baha’i community is barely a blip on the radar screen when seen in the context of history. Maybe you should wait another 500 or 1000 or 2000 years before exclusively claiming unity.

God is One, there is nothing more…let us humble ourselves in unity, rather than PRIDE ourselves in “exclusivity”

And that unity will come, when? When we all accept the Baha’i faith? Is this not exclusivity as much as me saying that there will be unity when all accept the Catholic faith?

 

[arthra]

Hi daler. Another thanks here.

I have no problem with this which sounds very much Christian in many ways. Sorry to bring Christianity here because that’s where I come from.

The difference is we believe that God is truly approachable. He had made great effort for this purpose that he became one of us. He is the Emmanuel, God with us.

He is like a father who wants his children to always come to him. He is always calling on his children that they may feel his presence and experience his providence. He is a living God and is not so far away. He is only a prayer away. When we call and seek him, he would be there to answer us. Probably that is one stark difference between our respective understanding of this one true God.

On nearness to God…

The third teaching of Bahá’u’lláh is that religion must be the source of fellowship, the cause of unity and the nearness of God to man. If it rouses hatred and strife it is evident that absence of religion is preferable and an irreligious man better than one who professes it. According to the divine will and intention religion should be the cause of love and agreement, a bond to unify all mankind for it is a message of peace and good-will to man from God.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 239)

**Waft, then, unto me, O my God and my Beloved, from the right hand of Thy mercy and Thy loving-kindness, the holy breaths of Thy favors, that they may draw me away from myself and from the world unto the courts of Thy nearness and Thy presence.
**
(Compilations, Baha’i Prayers, p. 230)

**I beg of God that thou mayest always enjoy spiritual nearness and ever be rejoiced.
**
(Abdu’l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu’l-Baha v1, p. 209)