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PRmerger
Guest
Then can you tell us how it is you know what Jesus said?
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L
Little_Star_1
Guest
Nope
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PRmerger
Guest
Why not?
D
daler
Guest
May I share a very special prayer with you? There is something in it which addresses this question. This prayer is called The Tablet of Ahmad, addressed to a faithful follower:
He is the King, the All-Knowing, the Wise!
Lo, the Nightingale of Paradise singeth upon the twigs of the Tree of Eternity, with holy and sweet melodies, proclaiming to the sincere ones the glad tidings of the nearness of God, calling the believers in the Divine Unity to the court of the Presence of the Generous One, informing the severed ones of the message which hath been revealed by God, the King, the Glorious, the Peerless, guiding the lovers to the seat of sanctity and to this resplendent Beauty.
Verily this is that Most Great Beauty, foretold in the Books of the Messengers, through Whom truth shall be distinguished from error and the wisdom of every command shall be tested. Verily He is the Tree of Life that bringeth forth the fruits of God, the Exalted, the Powerful, the Great.
O Aḥmad! Bear thou witness that verily He is God and there is no God but Him, the King, the Protector, the Incomparable, the Omnipotent. And that the One Whom He hath sent forth by the name of ‘Alí (the Bab) was the true One from God, to Whose commands we are all conforming.
Say: O people be obedient to the ordinances of God, which have been enjoined in the Bayán by the Glorious, the Wise One. Verily He is the King of the Messengers and His Book is the Mother Book did ye but know.
Thus doth the Nightingale utter His call unto you from this prison. He hath but to deliver this clear message. Whosoever desireth, let him turn aside from this counsel and whosoever desireth let him choose the path to his Lord.
O people, if ye deny these verses, by what proof have ye believed in God? Produce it, O assemblage of false ones.
Nay, by the One in Whose hand is my soul, they are not, and never shall be able to do this, even should they combine to assist one another.
O Aḥmad! Forget not My Bounties while I am absent. Remember My days during thy days, and My distress and banishment in this remote prison. And be thou so steadfast in My love that thy heart shall not waver, even if the swords of the enemies rain blows upon thee and all the heavens and the earth arise against thee.
Be thou as a flame of fire to My enemies and a river of life eternal to My loved ones, and be not of those who doubt.
And if thou art overtaken by affliction in My path, or degradation for My sake, be not thou troubled thereby.
Rely upon God, thy God and the Lord of thy fathers. For the people are wandering in the paths of delusion, bereft of discernment to see God with their own eyes, or hear His Melody with their own ears. Thus have We found them, as thou also dost witness.
Thus have their superstitions become veils between them and their own hearts and kept them from the path of God, the Exalted, the Great.
Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity.
Learn well this Tablet, O Aḥmad. Chant it during thy days and withhold not thyself therefrom. For verily, God hath ordained for the one who chants it, the reward of a hundred martyrs and a service in both worlds. These favors have We bestowed upon thee as a bounty on Our part and a mercy from Our presence, that thou mayest be of those who are grateful.
By God! Should one who is in affliction or grief read this Tablet with absolute sincerity, God will dispel his sadness, solve his difficulties and remove his afflictions.
Verily, He is the Merciful, the Compassionate. Praise be to God, the Lord of all the worlds.
—Bahá’u’lláh
R
Reuben_J
Guest
Hello. Quite a long cut and paste post on a particular prayer which is not answering the question posed. While the sharing of such information is appreciated, it’s purpose is questionable in the context of the discussion. I hope you are aware of the Forum rule that proselytising is frowned upon here.
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PRmerger
Guest
Since you cannot offer any other explanation, Little Star…
There is no other conclusion for me to have than this: even though you deny that you are giving tacit subjugation to the authority of the Catholic Church, you, in reality, actually do obey the Church when the Church declares, “This is what Jesus said…”
For there is no other way for you to know that Jesus said that the way is narrow…
except for the Catholic Church telling you this is what Jesus said.
P
PRmerger
Guest
Thus, Little Star, when you say:
it is because you read it in a Bible, which was brought to you and sponsored by and created and discerned and promulgated and protected and proclaimed by…
the Catholic Church.
[SIGN1]There is no other way that you would know what Jesus said.[/SIGN1]
And when you say…
it is because you read it in a book produced by the Catholic Church.
And when you say…
it is ONLY because you acknowledge (tacitly, although you have not yet been able to aver this honestly): “The Catholic Church said that Jesus said this, and thus I am trusting in men–Catholic men–to tell me what Jesus said.”
P
PRmerger
Guest
Right. So you can’t hold to your previous statement that God doesn’t care what words are accepted as Truth in other religions.
Even you don’t believe this.
Words that are accepted as Truth by one religion are *very, very *important.
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PRmerger
Guest
Yes, he is correct.
You incorrectly offered to your Catholic friend what was being said to you about the Catholic Church and the Bible.
No one here has posited that the CC “owns” the Bible.
What is being offered here is that you are obeying the authority of the Church each and every time you quote from the Bible.
For it was the Catholic Church which discerned for you and me which of the over 400 ancient Christian texts contained the true words of Christ, and which of them were apocryphal.
You would not know it any other way.
P
PRmerger
Guest
Of course.
But it comes to you through the Catholic Church.
And any truth–even mathematical truths, truths of chemistry, physics, language, poetry, philosophy, etc etc etc–are Catholic.
L
Little_Star_1
Guest
Daler,
-]I think I get the meaning of the prayer. Jesus said it when he said:
“For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.” (Matthew 13:15)
Your prayer touches on one who is not of the condition described in Matthew. I appreciate that we were able to join the teachings of the two faiths here. Showing the meaning of Jesus’ consistently saying to see and hear with the heart. Yes, it does answer the question. Jesus called upon us to see that our sins are forgiven through him and we can live a life without sin. But, the desire to live rightly has to be in our hearts and the war over sin is won by letting him into our hearts and living through there, through our love for him. There is a step beyond this, the step towards loving all and treating each other with honor, seeing God in everyone we meet or come into contact with, and knowing that, no matter how that person may appear, through looks or deeds, they are a child of God and capable of being redeemed. Beyond this is the step of knowing that God is all around us, that we can immerse ourselves in all that is holy and become truly holy in oneness with God. We come to know and live our Oneness.
Is this correct? If so, thank you so much for you have given me quite the compliment. I wish so much that all Christians could see that holding on to terms and definitions is not as important as learning the true meaning of the love of Christ and the wisdom of all messengers of God. I don’t need someone to confirm for me that Christ was the Son of God and so I am not threatened that another faith may define him in some other way. Instead, I can hold that in my heart and seek the wisdom that was given to the founder of the Baha’i faith. He didn’t ask anything of anyone other than to read the messages and to grow ever closer to God.
You know that Peter preached Christianity to the Jewish people and Paul to the Gentiles. Paul established that the Gentiles did not need to follow the traditions of the Jewish faith in order to follow Jesus. But, Peter taught that the Jewish people too could be saved by Christ’s teachings. They did not have to give up their heritage in order to confirm the love of Jesus in their hearts. So, this is how I see it for me in the Baha’i faith. I am a Christian and I can remain a Christian, but receive additional training of the way of the Lord through the Baha’i teachings. It is about God’s everlasting, never ending faith in humanity and His consistently revealing Himself to us through His messengers. As most Jewish people refused to see the link between Christ and their faith, most Christians may not be able to open their eyes and ears to the teachings of the Baha’i.
-]I think I get the meaning of the prayer. Jesus said it when he said:
“For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.” (Matthew 13:15)
Your prayer touches on one who is not of the condition described in Matthew. I appreciate that we were able to join the teachings of the two faiths here. Showing the meaning of Jesus’ consistently saying to see and hear with the heart. Yes, it does answer the question. Jesus called upon us to see that our sins are forgiven through him and we can live a life without sin. But, the desire to live rightly has to be in our hearts and the war over sin is won by letting him into our hearts and living through there, through our love for him. There is a step beyond this, the step towards loving all and treating each other with honor, seeing God in everyone we meet or come into contact with, and knowing that, no matter how that person may appear, through looks or deeds, they are a child of God and capable of being redeemed. Beyond this is the step of knowing that God is all around us, that we can immerse ourselves in all that is holy and become truly holy in oneness with God. We come to know and live our Oneness.
Is this correct? If so, thank you so much for you have given me quite the compliment. I wish so much that all Christians could see that holding on to terms and definitions is not as important as learning the true meaning of the love of Christ and the wisdom of all messengers of God. I don’t need someone to confirm for me that Christ was the Son of God and so I am not threatened that another faith may define him in some other way. Instead, I can hold that in my heart and seek the wisdom that was given to the founder of the Baha’i faith. He didn’t ask anything of anyone other than to read the messages and to grow ever closer to God.
You know that Peter preached Christianity to the Jewish people and Paul to the Gentiles. Paul established that the Gentiles did not need to follow the traditions of the Jewish faith in order to follow Jesus. But, Peter taught that the Jewish people too could be saved by Christ’s teachings. They did not have to give up their heritage in order to confirm the love of Jesus in their hearts. So, this is how I see it for me in the Baha’i faith. I am a Christian and I can remain a Christian, but receive additional training of the way of the Lord through the Baha’i teachings. It is about God’s everlasting, never ending faith in humanity and His consistently revealing Himself to us through His messengers. As most Jewish people refused to see the link between Christ and their faith, most Christians may not be able to open their eyes and ears to the teachings of the Baha’i.
M
MindNight
Guest
Hey ,
What does bahai religion think of astrology, tarot cards, feng shui, etc… I am actually indifferent and neutral towards it, but what about the bahais?
What does bahai religion think of astrology, tarot cards, feng shui, etc… I am actually indifferent and neutral towards it, but what about the bahais?
L
Little_Star_1
Guest
PR,
I do not offer you any explanations because I do not have to. There is another way and you just don’t see it. You don’t know it, so how could you? Please stop telling me the source of my beliefs. I understand your meaning. But, you limit God when you say such things. You repeatedly confuse church with God.
God is the source of the Word, not a church. When you repeatedly say such things you are limiting the Father, His Wisdom, His Being, to those words printed in the Bible. Do you really believe that man has been capable of discerning all of that which is God and has accurately summed up the power and majesty of God on paper and God stopped acting 2000 years ago? If you do you would be very, very, very wrong.
To this you may say “well what is known is in the Bible”, this too would be inaccurate. What is in the Bible is what powerful, very political, men agreed upon as being the Word. It is not necessarily all of the Word. I do not doubt their sincerity in wanting to be true to their faith. But, it was not the Christian faith of all people that believed that Jesus was the Son of God at the time. The Bible, and church, provide a good introductory course on how men can find their way to the Lord and should live. However, it is not all of the Truth of God. You are using deductive reasoning to reach a conclusion about the Creator of the Universe and my faith. Please stop blaspheming my Lord.
Your debating this with me does not make sense. You don’t know me. You know very little about me and this thread is about the Baha’i faith and sharing our beliefs.
L
Little_Star_1
Guest
PR,
Do you worship the church or do you worship God? Because all you discuss on here is the church and what it teaches. From my understanding of the Catholic church, the main aim is to reach a point in your faith where God speaks directly to your heart. Where you know the Holy Spirit intimately. If this had happened for you, you would not keep going on and on about the church. The teachings of a church are merely a vehicle. The people are its heart and that is where God resides. Please don’t say that this is a very Catholic belief. It is a belief of all of the major religions and some of the minor ones as well.
If you worship the church, then you are worshiping man’s wisdom and understanding of God, not the Creator.
Do you worship the church or do you worship God? Because all you discuss on here is the church and what it teaches. From my understanding of the Catholic church, the main aim is to reach a point in your faith where God speaks directly to your heart. Where you know the Holy Spirit intimately. If this had happened for you, you would not keep going on and on about the church. The teachings of a church are merely a vehicle. The people are its heart and that is where God resides. Please don’t say that this is a very Catholic belief. It is a belief of all of the major religions and some of the minor ones as well.
If you worship the church, then you are worshiping man’s wisdom and understanding of God, not the Creator.
D
doormouse73
Guest
Little star
isnt Jesus Christ the Church?
isnt Jesus Christ the word made flesh?
isnt Jesus Christ GOD, The Holy Trinity?
every thing PR is saying is true to the truth of God…
God bless
S
SteveVH
Guest
I find this a very curious statement. There is another way? If there is another way to know what God has revealed, why would you not enlighten us?
God is not just the source of the Word; God is the Word. Our faith is not in a set of precepts, but in a Person, Jesus Christ. And God, contrary to your statement, is certainly the source of the Church. "You are Peter and upon this rock I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH. Read those words carefully. CHRIST will BUILD his CHURCH. It is not a Church built by man, but a Church built by Christ and led by the Holy Spirit into all Truth. It is through this Church that you know anything about Christ. The Church is Christ’s presence on earth and having a relationship with Christ means having a relationship with HIS Church.
The Catholic Church does not glean its doctrines from the Bible. It already possessed the fullness of God’s revelation before we ever had a Bible. The texts chosen as the inspired word of God were chosen based upon how well they measured up to the faith and doctrines already present in Sacred Tradition. It is a supporting document to our faith, not the source of our faith.
No man is capable of summing up the power and majesty of God. If we could, then God would be no greater than man. We have received the fullness of God’s revelation to man in the Person of Jesus Christ. The Church, then, grows in its understanding of this Truth and teaches this Truth under the protection of the Hoy Spirit. The Church which Christ established is a divine institution, not a human institution. That is why it has outlived every human institution on earth and has not been destroyed by the inherent weakness and sinfulness of mankind.
You are correct. What is known about the revelation of Jesus Christ was known before we had a Bible, in the very life and teachings of the Church; Sacred Tradition.
So do you reject the Bible as the inspired word of God, and rather believe it consists only of the opinions of men? Do you not call yourself “Christian”?
Very true. We need the Church and its Sacred Tradition and Magisterium as well. The Bible is only that part of Sacred Tradition committed to writing.
Really? You mean there were Christians at the time who did not believe that Jesus was the Son of God? Please tell me, who were these people and what did they call their Church?
L
Little_Star_1
Guest
Doormouse,Little star
isnt Jesus Christ the Church?
isnt Jesus Christ the word made flesh?
isnt Jesus Christ GOD, The Holy Trinity?
every thing PR is saying is true to the truth of God…
God bless
It is not literally true. Yes, Jesus lives in the hearts of those that worship him. Not only those that worship him in the Catholic church, but those that belong to other denominations and religions. To all those that love the Lord.
Yes, he is the Word made flesh. But, he also chided the disciples for constantly going back to the Word (the OT) instead of taking advantage of allowing the living Word to teach them what was to come next and to explain the Word.
When one invites Jesus into their heart, the Word is the way, but it is he who gives it life in the believer. From here, the individual can grow more and more in faith and understanding. The Bible does provide the Truth of God. However, there is more to the Truth than what is contained within the Bible and this is what I was getting at. Even Jesus said that there was a whole lot more he wanted to tell them but they were not ready to hear it.
If we limit our growth, our understanding, to what is contained within the Bible, we are limiting the ability of the Holy Spirit to work within us to show us what Jesus has for us that is beyond the words contained in the Bible, allowing the words to have a life within us and to live that life. To constantly say that God is the church and the church is God is the same manner in which the Jewish people regarded Jesus and his revelations. They saw it as an affront to their teachings and a way to lead them away from the true teachings of their religion. Christians have no problem in recognizing the error of the Jewish people; but, many still make the same error.
It is a mental and emotional leap that one must make in order to live all that Jesus promised, to give the Word life and true meaning. The church cannot do this for you. You have to do it on your own. It is a Truth that existed before the Catholic church and was shown in Elijah, Moses, Abraham, and others, in progressive degrees. It wasn’t just their teachings that brought them before God, it was their faith in God’s existence and movement in their lives and on Earth. There was no Jewish faith at one time. There was no Catholic church at one time. Yet, God has always been and always will be and cannot, is not fully described or understood by any of us, He exists whether we have a single church dedicated to Him or not. To believe that He is one and the same as the church is to greatly limit Him. It is a grave error.
Yes, I read the Bible and praise God that I am able to do so with what understanding I can bring to my reading. However, long before that, I knew God and knew His love and power. It isn’t just me, there are many, many like me. We use the Bible as a vehicle to touch His majesty. Yet, we put it down to feel Him moving in our singular lives, to know Him personally, to return the love He gives to us and to remain open to further revelations and instruction, to get as close to oneness with Him as possible, knowing we can never fully appreciate all that is God as we are His creation. We did not create Him with the Bible.
L
Little_Star_1
Guest
I just know my words will not be understood. That is not surprising as words do not describe what I am getting to. However, the problem with putting the church on the same level as our Creator, is that people come to believe that as long as they do right by the church, tithe, attend, say their prayers as directed by the church, and do some charitable work, they think they are being true to that which God wants from us. Nope that isn’t it. He wants more and offers more. The thing is, as long as you think that you that following what your priest or minister or church asks of you is enough to get you before the Father, you are limiting your relationship with Him.
D
doormouse73
Guest
im sorry little star,but after reading this post you gave i do believe that you do not know God the way you say you do…
he gave the holy spirit to the disciples,now if other people get or receive the holy spirit after it has been handed down from Jesus/God the word the flesh… would they not be receiving truths form the holy spirit? if this is so then why do some of, if not most of the things Bahais are saying on this thread are contradicting the word of Christ… why would Jesus Christ/God do such a thing as mislead people… unless would this be the spirit that spoke to mohammed and declared that it was the greatest of all deceivers…
now there is a difference in spirit and holy spirit… this is what some people cannot see…
God bless
L
Little_Star_1
Guest
Doormouse, please do not assume anything about me. I knew people would not understand what I was trying to say. Yes, they were lead by the Holy Spirit. Yes, they received Truths. I have never denied this. Over and over I had said that they received Truth. That Truth was also to lead us to a closer relationship with God and one that cannot be developed just through reading the Bible and attending Church.im sorry little star,but after reading this post you gave i do believe that you do not know God the way you say you do…
he gave the holy spirit to the disciples,now if other people get or receive the holy spirit after it has been handed down from Jesus/God the word the flesh… would they not be receiving truths form the holy spirit? if this is so then why do some of, if not most of the things Bahais are saying on this thread are contradicting the word of Christ… why would Jesus Christ/God do such a thing as mislead people… unless would this be the spirit that spoke to mohammed and declared that it was the greatest of all deceivers…
now there is a difference in spirit and holy spirit… this is what some people cannot see…
God bless
What the Baha’i say about the identity of Christ does not threaten my belief in who he is. Just as many Jews remain Jews but follow the words of Christ. If you can’t see it, okay. But, do not contradict my faith and my knowledge of my Father. Yes, there is a huge difference between spirit and Holy Spirit. But, unless you commune with the Holy Spirit you wont truly know this. You can say the words and think your mind gets the difference, but you wont get it. Most churches teach how the disciples communed with the Holy Spirit. They don’t go on to say that we are supposed to live OUR lives in communion with the Holy Spirit. If you do, then you don’t worry about what another faith says about Christ.
You guys keep asking them to explain who they believe Christ is. You don’t ask about other aspects of their religion. So it appears that they keep contradicting the Word because that is all you have given them a chance to speak about. When they do move on to other topics, someone jumps in and goes back to who they believe Christ is. I know that man is fallible. So, I don’t worry about who they think Christ is. I know who he is. I also know that he did say there was a great deal more he could tell us but did not. This alone shows that there is more Truth to be revealed outside of the Bible. But, the Holy Spirit will reveal it to you if you seek it. Most folks don’t seek it. Without it, in truth, folks are very limited in their Spiritual awareness.
Your opinion of how I know God is irrelevant. It was terribly wrong for you to make that comment. It is evidence of what I say is true of most Christians. Being a Christian, it breaks my heart that there is so much we fail to perceive even though Christ died to lead us to it.
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