Baha'i Returns Thread: Ask Any of Many Baha'i

[daler]

FALSE Baha’i words:

“Inasmuch as these Birds of the celestial Throne are all sent down from the heaven of the Will of God, and as they all arise to proclaim His irresistible Faith, they, therefore, are regarded as one soul and the same person. For they all drink from the one Cup of the love of God, and all partake of the fruit of the same Tree of Oneness.“

TRUE Baha’i words:

“Inasmuch as these Birds of the celestial Throne are all sent down from the heaven of the Will of God, and as they all arise to proclaim His irresistible Faith, they, therefore, are regarded as one soul and the same person. For they all drink from the one Cup of the love of God, and all partake of the fruit of the same Tree of Oneness."

To merely quote a verse and declare it to be True or False merely indicates an opinion, and has no bearing whatsoever.

The Jews declared Jesus to be Beelzebub.

To base such an opinion on prejudicial bias without having thoroughly investigated the claim, studied at length the words, examined the immense volume of information, looked at the hundreds of prophecies which back it up… is to draw attention to one’s own deficiencies as an inquisitor.

To those of us who come from every diverse background of humanity, who are serious seekers after truth, from every religion, nation, class and color, who are familiar not only with the religious scripture we inherited, be it Christian, Catholic, Protestant, Baptist; Muslim, Shiite, Sunni, etc; Buddhist, Hindu, Zoroastrian, Native American, in all the hundreds of tribes and localities we come from, such a bias is unacceptable, groundless, and demonstrates not only a closed mind, but whispers something about the heart, as well…

God bless you in your struggle. I will leave you with a Native American prayer:

“Oh Great Spirit! Help me to defeat my greatest enemy: myself.”

 

[PRmerger]

TRUE Baha’i words:

“Inasmuch as these Birds of the celestial Throne are all sent down from the heaven of the Will of God, and as they all arise to proclaim His irresistible Faith, they, therefore, are regarded as one soul and the same person. For they all drink from the one Cup of the love of God, and all partake of the fruit of the same Tree of Oneness."

To merely quote a verse and declare it to be True or False merely indicates an opinion, and has no bearing whatsoever.

I was asked to do this by another Baha’i poster, daler.

 

[SteveVH]

My friend, I am not trying to “lead” anyone anywhere. I am only exploring the realities presented before us and we are trying to explore what is the Truth based on this exploration of the realities

Are the realities we have glaring us in our faces important to explore or not?

Your questions and comments are an obvious attempt to get a Catholic to “admit” that Christ did not physically rise from the dead, that it is all symbolic.

Let me ask a very simple question that requires a very simple answer. Do you think that it s possible for God to change a mortal body into an immortal body; a body that can be both physical and spiritual as he wills? Is that a possibility? Please, no quotes from Baha’u’llah, just your own take.

 

[Servant19]

Your questions and comments are an obvious attempt to get a Catholic to “admit” that Christ did not physically rise from the dead, that it is all symbolic.

Let me ask a very simple question that requires a very simple answer. Do you think that it s possible for God to change a mortal body into an immortal body; a body that can be both physical and spiritual as he wills? Is that a possibility? Please, no quotes from Baha’u’llah, just your own take.

Of course, Steve
I believe God can do ANYTHING, if He wished for it, but for everything there is a reason.

What is the purpose or reason for changing a physical, mortal body, into an immortal body, when we know that the human spirit is already immortal?

What is the purpose of the body at all, the visible body, when EVERYTHING that has meaning, everything that has depth, everything that is touching and can bring a loving tear to the eye is sourced from the invisible spirit of man, that Divine Dewdrop which is the source of EVERYTHING that we can be conscious of?

 

[Servant19]

Just wanted to also clarify that we do not lose our human identity and reality when we “shed” the physical body.

Yes, of course, in this plane of existence we are a human frame (with eyes, ears, legs, a tongue and a heart, etc) which is given “animation” by the human soul. But if we look back, at another plane of existence, we were just a clump of cells with an umbilical cord and a placenta.

It is when the umbilical cord and placenta WERE SHED, did we realise the full potential of our physical existence.

In exactly the same manner, it is when the human frame IS SHED, do we realise the full potential of our spiritual reality.

The shedding of our “shells” (if you like) does not lessen, in any way, our true reality which is the soul.

Part of this “shedding” process is the power of DETACHMENT.

When in the womb, the baby is limited by the attachments it is placed under. Its full potential is restrained by the attachments of the umbilical cord and placenta. It is only when it can be detached from these “attachments” that its true reality is seen to blossom. And so it is born into this world…

In like manner, the “attachments” of this world restrain us from the full potential of human existence. We need to eat, drink, we subject ourselves to animalistic pleasures, sin etc etc. Yet we are constantly taught to TRANSCEND and DETACH ourselves from these pleasures.

Why?

Because it is the longing of the soul to remove itself from these “restraints” so it can be united with its Creator, Who is likewise, completely Unrestrained. Thats why the monastic lifestyle is encouraged, fasting, etc etc. These things are not good for the physical body (maybe slightly) but they are DEFINITELY spiritual pursuits.

It is for this reason that the spirit finds peace at last and longing peace, when it is finally FULLY detached from its physical restraints, and can continue, unimpeded towards its Creator, just like the human body, can finally continue to progess physically and acquire physical perfections, unimpeded, after it is freed from the restraints of the life of the womb.

Birth into this earthly plane from the plane of the womb allows the physical body to blossom.
Birth into the spiritual plane from this earthly plane allows the spiritual body to blossom.

Restrainst and detachment (or renunciation) are critical to this discussion.

Jesus, in his spiritual body has supreme power over any physical or glorified body. It does not take much to observe this reality

 

[Reuben_J]

Of course, Steve
I believe God can do ANYTHING, if He wished for it, but for everything there is a reason.

What is the purpose or reason for changing a physical, mortal body, into an immortal body, when we know that the human spirit is already immortal?

What is the purpose of the body at all, the visible body, when EVERYTHING that has meaning, everything that has depth, everything that is touching and can bring a loving tear to the eye is sourced from the invisible spirit of man, that Divine Dewdrop which is the source of EVERYTHING that we can be conscious of?

The explanation for this contains in the basic Christian belief.

It is about salvation.

The price of sin is death. Human who sin therefore will face the consequence – death which means eternal damnation.

In the ancient days atonement of sin was done by offering sacrifices and the repentance of heart. But the price must be paid anyway, thus the shedding of the blood.

This is a foreshadow of what Christ would achieve.

Thus God has to become man and dies, not for his own sin because he does not sin but for the sin of the world who do.

So whatever you call them, symbol and all that, it is a fact that God become man in Jesus. So that was the purpose of the whole thing. You will find that you cannot persuade Christians to believe otherwise at the expense of their own belief, the belief of the Church, her teaching and the Bible.

The man in Jesus follows all what a man is – born and die. But Jesus resurrection prefigures our very own, that we too would rise again because of Jesus who died for us had resurrected and be glorious.

Remember that human composed of body, mind (soul) and spirit. Body is what we see in the earthly life. The soul (humanity, relates to man; our emotion and intellect) we cannot see and does not die. The spirit (that relates to God and the Evil One; our intuition, illumination and conscience) that we cannot see also does not die.

So it is futile to limit man just to his earthly body because he is still a man as long as he has his soul and spirit. In his glorified body he is a complete man. When a soul is separated from his body, he dies. But in his glorified body he is complete once again.

 

[daler]

Your questions and comments are an obvious attempt to get a Catholic to “admit” that Christ did not physically rise from the dead, that it is all symbolic.

Let me ask a very simple question that requires a very simple answer. Do you think that it s possible for God to change a mortal body into an immortal body; a body that can be both physical and spiritual as he wills? Is that a possibility? Please, no quotes from Baha’u’llah, just your own take.

Steve,
. If I may clarify something which I think may not be quite clear to you, and perhaps others. Some of the “visions” of Christ are certainly more than an intuition. The “vision” of Paul, was Jesus in some visible form appearing to Paul. That is my opinion and sense of it. So we, or I at least, are “not” denying some visible aspect to the visions reported. That is not our position.
. The vision of Peter when he saw, as mentioned in Luke: “And while He was praying, the appearance of His face became different, and His clothing became white and gleaming. And behold, two men were talking with Him; and they were Moses and Elijah”

. Several things from Ezekiel come to mind:

Ezek 1:28-note As the appearance of the rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the surrounding radiance. Such was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell on my face and heard a voice speaking.

Ezek 3:12-note Then the Spirit lifted me up, and I heard a great rumbling sound behind me, “Blessed be the glory of the LORD in His place.”

Ezek 3:23-note So I got up and went out to the plain; and behold, the glory of the LORD was standing there, like the glory which I saw by the river Chebar, and I fell on my face.

Ezek 10:4-noteThen the glory of the LORD went up from the cherub to the threshold of the temple, and the temple was filled with the cloud, and the court was filled with the brightness of the glory of the LORD.

Ezek 10:18-note Then the glory of the LORD departed from the threshold of the temple and stood over the cherubim.

Ezek 11:23-note And the glory of the LORD went up from the midst of the city, and stood over the mountain which is east of the city.

But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit. (2Cor 3:18-note)

Clearly, these were all “visions”, and are found in many places in the Bible. The point is not whether we comprehend them through the eyes of quantum physics or whatever, but that we recognize their import.

. for Baha’is, we sometimes make use of the Arabic translation of “The Glory of the Lord”, which is literally “Baha’u’llah”. So the question becomes “Who?” is Baha’u’llah that is being spoken of? And “What” is the nature of these visions of “Glory” ? Again, in Arabic, Glory is translated as “Baha”

. Baha’is, as you know, consider these references to the Glory of God as being embodied in a Prophet, or Manifestation, Whom we refer to in the Arabic language in which He was known as Baha’u’llah.

.

 

[Reuben_J]

Reuben,
. I wish to present something outside of the norm here for a minute. If you will please bare with me and accept what I am attempting to say, not as a Native American, but as one who grew up in the midst of the Lakota Sioux people in South Dakota in the 50s, 60s, and 70s. (I was the grandson of homesteaders there)
. A real and definite similarity exists in the sacrament of the Pipe as what Catholics there in the Dakotas and elsewhere themselves often testify. There is symbolism in both which achieve, and have achieved, the same intended purpose for a couple of thousand years.
. As you are familiar with the eucharist, there is no need to explain it. So I will briefly offer a description of the sacred Pipe ceremony. The Pipe itself is carved out of “pipestone” which comes from a quarry in what is now Minnesota. It represents the blood of the people, whom Wakan Tanka, the Great Spirit, created as His children.
. The stem is also symbolic, the carvings on it, the feathers, etc, but I won’t go into that. Suffice it to say that it is used in a sacred manner. Tobacco or some herbs, part of creation, are put in the pipe, offered East, West, North, South, towards the Earth, and to the Sky.
. As the smoke rises upwards the prayer is understood to rise with the smoke into the Heavens and goes to the Great Spirit. It is really a symbolic way of enabling people to make that connection, to understand that there is a way for God to “hear” our prayers, and that He is always there for us, loves us, and is caring for us.
. I can tell you, that as one raised in a “white” skin in a "Christian church, no white man, Catholic or Protestant, was a whit closer to God, the Great Spirit, than some of these old, or young, Indian people, who worshipped in their own traditional ways which came to them by “Prophets” from ancient times.
. They were highly civilized, extremely humble, very honest, exceedingly courageous, selflessly generous, noble, dignified, etc, etc, etc, etc long, long, long before boat loads of white people showed up with their Bibles, guns, churches, and treaties.

Hi daler. The style of your posts is rather confusing and it may give rise to misunderstanding. It is difficult to know what you really want to put across.

So what is your point? You have a habit of quoting something or tell a story but you do not explain how they relate to your point.

Are you afraid of being obvious and that you would be challenged? I think no, but if you are being elusive then I have no choice but think you do.

So the example about the Indians Pipe is in support that the resurrection of Jesus or the Eucharist are merely symbolic. Is that it?

Then I would say it is not the same with the Eucharist (in transubstantiation) because it is not symbolic. You would note here that I mentioned Eucharist, a very difficult subject which is not accepted by anybody other than Catholics. I am not afraid to bring this about even though it can be subjected to challenge and I would be prepared for its defense (though admittedly this is not the thread). I merely was referring to it to make a point.

Some of the finest Christians I ever knew were the ones who learned from “them”…

This is very subjective. I am sure it is true but it does not prove anything. We have many saints. Some have jus died and many are still living except that we may not know them. Generalization does not prove anything.

 

[daler]

Do you think that it s possible for God to change a mortal body into an immortal body; a body that can be both physical and spiritual as he wills? Is that a possibility? Please, no quotes from Baha’u’llah, just your own take.

With the Arabic substitution entered into these “visions”, these become:

Ezek 1:28-note As the appearance of the rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the surrounding radiance. Such was the appearance of the likeness of Baha’u’llah. And when I saw it, I fell on my face and heard a voice speaking.

Ezek 3:12-note Then the Spirit lifted me up, and I heard a great rumbling sound behind me, “Blessed be Baha’u’llah in His place.”

Ezek 3:23-note So I got up and went out to the plain; and behold, Baha’u’llah was standing there, like the glory which I saw by the river Chebar, and I fell on my face.

Ezek 10:4-note ThenBaha’u’llah went up from the cherub to the threshold of the temple, and the temple was filled with the cloud, and the court was filled with the brightness of Baha’u’lah.

Ezek 10:18-note Then Baha’u’llah departed from the threshold of the temple and stood over the cherubim.

Ezek 11:23-note And Baha’u’llah went up from the midst of the city, and stood over the mountain which is east of the city.

But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror, Baha’u’llah, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit. (2Cor 3:18-note)

So however we “interpret” these visions, according to our own faith or prejudices or opinions, something very profound was happening in all of these “visions” of Baha’u’llah, the Glory of the Lord, that made them to be recorded in the Bible.

Baha’is maintain that when put next to hundreds of other “indicators” an overwhelming amount of evidence yields a certain conclusion: That Baha’u’llah is a Holy Personage, seen in visions, and that this is not merely a dazzling light of some sort.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Yes, as I said, I largely agree with your point. Christian unity is upheld by respecting and following the interpretations provided by the Apostles and their successors, though they should not be followed blindly, they should be studied and understood in context. When you look at the arc of history so to speak that I outlined above, the Church progressed from some degree of confusion early on, to establishing a largely united Church, to then splintering in recent centuries.

But God remains unchanged. Also most of the world is not Christian. There is a need for unity among all of God’s children not just the Christian ones. Baha’u’llah’s Revelation can restore the unity that Christianity has lost, and that the world needs.

You will find that studying that history will present a decisively pro Catholic/Orthodox/Oriental view of Christianity. But your prophet cannot restore unity between Christians because in his very giving of a different revelation wtih different teachings of that of Christianity, we will be inherently divided. A contradiction cannot be reconciled.

 

[daler]

Hi daler. The style of your posts is rather confusing and it may give rise to misunderstanding. It is difficult to know what you really want to put across.

So what is your point? You have a habit of quoting something or tell a story but you do not explain how they relate to your point.

Are you afraid of being obvious and that you would be challenged? I think no, but if you are being elusive then I have no choice but think you do.

So the example about the Indians Pipe is in support that the resurrection of Jesus or the Eucharist are merely symbolic. Is that it?

Then I would say it is not the same with the Eucharist (in transubstantiation) because it is not symbolic. You would note here that I mentioned Eucharist, a very difficult subject which is not accepted by anybody other than Catholics. I am not afraid to bring this about even though it can be subjected to challenge and I would be prepared for its defense (though admittedly this is not the thread). I merely was referring to it to make a point.

This is very subjective. I am sure it is true but it does not prove anything. We have many saints. Some have jus died and many are still living except that we may not know them. Generalization does not prove anything.

Reuben,
. I am grateful for you for expressing your questions and concerns. Let me begin by saying that at no time am I meaning to be elusive. Also, before going further, never do I wish to mean anyone of the Catholic Faith, its believers, saints, etc.
. I am sorry if I may carry something of an “edge” where my upbringing is concerned in regards to my Native American brothers and sisters. You could say that “I saw too much”, while growing up. Too much oppression. Too much prejudice. Too much degrading their culture, religion, and dignity. I do not mean to project in the wrong way any of those emotions, but acknowledge that they are there, and may surface in ways unintended.

. If I can better respond here, I know that the “eucharist” is a very, very sacred thing for you. I do not wish to demean its importance at all. Not at all. Rather, I was drawing a parallel, as best I could, to the similarity in my mind, the Lakota mind, and many priests and lay people who recognize the sacredness of both of these “sacred” rites.

. I think the thing to keep in mind is that we are all God’s “chosen people”, that He has given us Prophets who have taught us ways to connect, or re-connect with Him, and that these are not exclusive, one contradicting another, but rather inclusive and complementary.
. What I take offense to is the assertion of one group universally setting itself and its rituals as singly sanctioned by God to the detraction of others, for I grew up seeing the effects of that kind of thinking, and the actions which followed.
. An “open” mind and an unhardened heart are required to enter into the mind-set, and heart-set, of the Sacred Hoop of All Nations, which is the One Fold and One Shepherd, told from two cultures and traditions separated by thousands of miles and years across oceans and time, yet cultivated and nurtured by the same loving Great Sprit God.
. It took me a long time to get out of my “white mind”, to transcend the limitations and prejudices I inherited. If I said to you, “Jesus was an Indian”, would that be acceptable?
or if I could prove to you that “Jesus was a black man”, would that change your faith?
. The unfortunate reality of being human is that we are rather “fixed” in our pre-concieved notions of who Jesus is or is not, what color He is, and where He can come from and to whom He can appear.
. It is our prejudices and habits which we must outgrow to become the Good Samaritans He spoke of. This requires soul searching. I vividly recall the press photographs of when Jimmy Carter was President and a “black” minister was not allowed entry into the President’s church in Plains, Georgia.
. I can tell you with much certainty that if Jesus showed up, flying through the clouds or however people expect His 2nd coming, that most white Christians would not accept Him if He were black. Thats “who” and “what” we are. Vain and petty creatures.

. “And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.”

 

[daler]

You will find that studying that history will present a decisively pro Catholic/Orthodox/Oriental view of Christianity. But your prophet cannot restore unity between Christians because in his very giving of a different revelation wtih different teachings of that of Christianity, we will be inherently divided. A contradiction cannot be reconciled.

Very interesting, because virtually every Christian sect, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist sect, Native American tribe is restored to complete unity by recognizing the coming of Baha’u’llah as the Promised One of “All” Religions. Some 6 or 7 million of us, thus far, from every nation, tribe, religion, and sect on earth.

And these are not simple people, depending upon your definition, but people of great sophistication from all of these groups, whether neuro-surgeons or illiterates, priests or medicine men and women, professors or carpenters, rich or poor.

And the unity that all feel is far above what words can express, more than the heart can contain. And the beauty of it all is that the love felt across every difficult and insurmountable line which men have found impossible to cross for thousands of years has so clearly been crossed. Over, and over, and over again.

So indeed, our Prophet has restored, and continues to restore daily, the blessed souls who were separated by schismatics of the One Faith of Jesus, and Muhammad, and Moses, and Buddha, and Krsna, and … … … and we are all just sitting here smiling… and in one voice proclaiming “The Lord has come in His Great Glory!”

. And all our eyes see it together, i.e., in Unity, for that is how we enter through the Gate, into the Sacred Hoop of All Nations, into the One Fold of the One Shepherd.

May the Great Spirit make His Face to shine upon you in all His Shakinah Glory…

We just hate to see people turn away from it. But then, free will requires it, doesn’t it…

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Very interesting, because virtually every Christian sect, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist sect, Native American tribe is restored to complete unity by recognizing the coming of Baha’u’llah as the Promised One of “All” Religions. Some 6 or 7 million of us, thus far, from every nation, tribe, religion, and sect on earth.

And these are not simple people, depending upon your definition, but people of great sophistication from all of these groups, whether neuro-surgeons or illiterates, priests or medicine men and women, professors or carpenters, rich or poor.

And the unity that all feel is far above what words can express, more than the heart can contain. And the beauty of it all is that the love felt across every difficult and insurmountable line which men have found impossible to cross for thousands of years has so clearly been crossed. Over, and over, and over again.

So indeed, our Prophet has restored, and continues to restore daily, the blessed souls who were separated by schismatics of the One Faith of Jesus, and Muhammad, and Moses, and Buddha, and Krsna, and … … … and we are all just sitting here smiling… and in one voice proclaiming “The Lord has come in His Great Glory!”

. And all our eyes see it together, i.e., in Unity, for that is how we enter through the Gate, into the Sacred Hoop of All Nations, into the One Fold of the One Shepherd.

May the Great Spirit make His Face to shine upon you in all His Shakinah Glory…

We just hate to see people turn away from it. But then, free will requires it, doesn’t it…

If by restored unity, you mean succumbing to bahai decrees and then being in union with people who were once of different faiths, I don’t consider that actual reunion, I consider that conversion. IMagine if bahai didn’t exist. there would be more people unified in a less amount of religions. 6 million people wouldn’t be divided against most of humanity and their religions. So really in the bahai religion merely existing, you have just divided humanity further and put more boarders between us, ironic reallly. Bahai religion is not likely to unify mankind and even if you do gain more converts I suspect when one thousand years arrive and bahai will be expecting their messiah you will have many messiahs appearing and some bahai will different messiahs and some will remain bahai despite the fact they have to choose one or else the promise of Mirza HUssain will be of no profit.

 

[Servant19]

If by restored unity, you mean succumbing to bahai decrees and then being in union with people who were once of different faiths, I don’t consider that actual reunion, I consider that conversion. IMagine if bahai didn’t exist. there would be more people unified in a less amount of religions. 6 million people wouldn’t be divided against most of humanity and their religions. So really in the bahai religion merely existing, you have just divided humanity further and put more boarders between us, ironic reallly. Bahai religion is not likely to unify mankind and even if you do gain more converts I suspect when one thousand years arrive and bahai will be expecting their messiah you will have many messiahs appearing and some bahai will different messiahs and some will remain bahai despite the fact they have to choose one or else the promise of Mirza HUssain will be of no profit.

Ignatian, take a look at this video and tell me who are the Baha’is:

youtube.com/watch?v=sESFu3M9MSw

(hint, there is not a single iota, or a dot of conversion going on)

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Ignatian, take a look at this video and tell me who are the Baha’is:

youtube.com/watch?v=sESFu3M9MSw

(hint, there is not a single iota, or a dot of conversion going on)

I have no interest in the video, but what else do I call it if one abandons a theology in favour of another? Are you saying that they are still their original faith? That a Roman catholic who becomes bahai is still a roman catholic in creed or practice? Conversion may not be instant but it is still conversion whether bahai want to admit it or not, one has to give up certain aspects of their religion to become bahai.

I would have to give up the trinity, the doctrine of the incarnation, that Christ is the only saviour (and by Christ I mean Jesus), the reality of sacraments, the reality of hell and other doctrines with are antithetical to bahai. Please do not interpret those words and say “we believe all those things.” I know you do not believe all of those things, but merely redefine them from the way Christians use them in order to appear to agree with us. Lets not talk past each other and recognise we contradict each other aye? I shouldn’t have to qantify what I say at this point, but bahai have this tendacy to reintepret words that they know have a different meaning because they want to appear to be union with everybody.

 

[Servant19]

Now I see. You are narrowing it to the physical. As I have explained, Jesus in no way wherever or whenever he may be lose the human aspect of him. Earlier on we discussed that a human can do abnormal thing that an ordinary human can do – example walking on burning charcoal without getting. I am using that to explain the glorified human form of Jesus, a very poor analogy that may be.

Hi Reuben,

When a person can literally “walk” through a wall, he immediately loses his physical aspect.

Walking on charcoal is a possibility, has been demonstrated in the past, will be demonstrated in the future, but a physical being going through another solid has never, and will never be a reality. Not one documented case, except for Jesus. Walking on charcoal, billions of documented cases. One is empirically evidenced millions of times. The other, not one shred of empirical evidence for 2000 years.

You see, this is where the atheists start to question the credibility of religion. It is when religion starts to make the physical reality into something that has never been witnessed or observed, that a lot of credibility is lost.

Empirical science and religion should work hand in hand, for truth is one. The only way that religion can build credibility is to focus on what is possible in the realms of the “invisible” and utilize the depths of this understanding to manifest that beauty in the realms of the “visible”

Physical and spiritual are separate planes of existence finding a “link” in this earthly plane. What is dust, will then return to dust, and what is the Father’s will then return to the Father

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Hi Reuben,

When a person can literally “walk” through a wall, he immediately loses his physical aspect.

Walking on charcoal is a possibility, has been demonstrated in the past, will be demonstrated in the future, but a physical being going through another solid has never, and will never be a reality. Not one documented case, except for Jesus. Walking on charcoal, billions of documented cases. One is empirically evidenced millions of times. The other, not one shred of empirical evidence for 2000 years.

You see, this is where the atheists start to question the credibility of religion. It is when religion starts to make the physical reality into something that has never been witnessed or observed, that a lot of credibility is lost.

Empirical science and religion should work hand in hand, for truth is one. The only way that religion can build credibility is to focus on what is possible in the realms of the “invisible” and utilize the depths of this understanding to manifest that beauty in the realms of the “visible”

Physical and spiritual are separate planes of existence finding a “link” in this earthly plane. What is dust, will then return to dust, and what is the Father’s will then return to the Father

So if you interpret that account of Jesus walking through a wall to be literal why do you not do the same for him eating fish and saying he is not a ghost? In that same account of Christ appearing to the apostles in a closed room, he invites Thomas to touch his side, is he playing april fools? All this goes to show is that hte nature of the ressurected body is not like ours, it is capable of things which defy natural law.

 

[Reuben_J]

Hi Reuben,

When a person can literally “walk” through a wall, he immediately loses his physical aspect.

But Servant, he does not lose his humanity, does he?

We are talking about Jesus being both man and divine, aren’t we not?

Walking on charcoal is a possibility, has been demonstrated in the past, will be demonstrated in the future, but a physical being going through another solid has never, and will never be a reality. Not one documented case, except for Jesus. Walking on charcoal, billions of documented cases. One is empirically evidenced millions of times. The other, not one shred of empirical evidence for 2000 years.

I would not say that if I were you. The Bible is the most supported and authentic ancient book compared to other similar books of its time. And its narrations made sure it is undestood that Jesus rose from the dead and seen again therefater.Even the historical record of the Roman Empire and Julius Ceasar do not have the same pedigree. So I am not too sure what proof you are looking for in a 2000 year old incident.

 

[Servant19]

But Servant, he does not lose his humanity, does he?

We are talking about Jesus being both man and divine, aren’t we not?

I guess this may be further clarified as to what your definition of “humanity” is?

Certainly no human being can walk through walls.

I would not say that if I were you. The Bible is the most supported and authentic ancient book compared to other similar books of its time. And its narrations made sure it is undestood that Jesus rose from the dead and seen again therefater.Even the historical record of the Roman Empire and Julius Ceasar do not have the same pedigree. So I am not too sure what proof you are looking for in a 2000 year old incident.

Please don’t get me wrong, dear friend, I am not questioning the authenticity of the Bible. I am simply saying that Jesus is the ONLY authentic case of someone having risen from the dead. What the term “risen from the dead” actually means can be interpreted in several ways.

Now, to say that one interpretation is false, and the Catholic interpretation is truth, is simply unjust.

Thats all I’m saying. Not sure if you agree with me or not…

 

[Reuben_J]

You see, this is where the atheists start to question the credibility of religion. It is when religion starts to make the physical reality into something that has never been witnessed or observed, that a lot of credibility is lost.

Atheists do not believe. They do not believe the existenceof God. We are not atheists so frankly, Servant, I am not sure what you are trying to prove here.

Empirical science and religion should work hand in hand, for truth is one. The only way that religion can build credibility is to focus on what is possible in the realms of the “invisible” and utilize the depths of this understanding to manifest that beauty in the realms of the “visible”

Not always. Science cannot explain Genesis and there is no reason why it should. I am really surprised that your argument are going into this tangent.

Physical and spiritual are separate planes of existence finding a “link” in this earthly plane. What is dust, will then return to dust, and what is the Father’s will then return to the Father

What is the ‘link’ there in your opinion because we are quite sure of the link already.

Jesus was man. He died. He rose again in a glorified body. I would say the glorified body is the link. It is both human but also extraordinary.

If you insist that we must have a human-like body in heaven, then you are meaning to say that we would die again there. I know Muslims believe that we need to eat, sleep and have sex in heaven, very much like the earthly body. They did not tell me that we have to die too in heaven though. So I am not too convinced with this argument.