Baha'i Returns Thread: Ask Any of Many Baha'i

[Little_Star_1]

Fair enough.

So when you do come to a forum, any forum, expect a difference of opinion. Expect to see people disagreeing with each other. Expect to see debate, discourse and contrary opinions.

If you find anything hostile or uncharitable, I suggest you report the post to the moderators.

And I suggest you do not return with hostile or uncharitable remarks yourself. Because, again, it makes the appearance that you object to others what you reserve for yourself.

You may find it meaningless.

I think that you respond so negatively to it because you are being given questions you’ve never considered, and it makes you uncomfortable.

For example, you proclaim that you do not trust the words of men, of any institution, of any church…yet you also have never considered this point (until it was presented to you here on the CAFs): the ONLY way you know what Jesus said and did is through the institution of the Catholic Church.

That is why, I think, you don’t like to come to the CAFs and discuss.

Because when you do, it confronts your comfortable notions with something that makes you go, “Hmmm…”.

And you realize the inconsistency of your position.

If you don’t like to be confronted with different ideas, and want to remain comfortable in your own ideas, then don’t come to the CAFs.

But if you want to consider some ideas that you’ve never been presented with (such as that you actually have to trust the Catholic Church, and only the Catholic Church, to tell you what Jesus said and did…), then continue to learn and discuss and dialogue here with knowledgeable Catholics.

No PR everything you said is a total misunderstanding of me, my position, my faith, everything that I am. If you recall, this original line of conversation started with me responding to a post regarding me. Your position is a strict Catholic position, in your view. I know many Catholics that disagree with most of what you state is the Catholic position.

Nor do I rely on the Catholic church to tell me what Jesus said and did. As your knowledge of me is greatly limited, you don’t know that from which I derive my faith. The Catholic beliefs, as they are held by the majority of Catholics, are not necessarily those depicted in this thread, and are very similar to my own. Nothing that I would call “different” has been stated here. Just the view is so much more narrow than what I have discussed with other Catholics, a couple of which are authorities within the church and part of the Priesthood.

Remain comfortable with my ideas? What in the world does this really mean? When one lives their life through living out the Word of God, they are not living by their “own ideas”. When you say this type of thing it shows a lack depth in your understanding and you just don’t, or can’t get that. It is call submitting to the will of God. This is living with God as your guide.

It is kind of amusing that you think theology which is 2000 years old is so new and different. How young do you think I am? Most Catholics do not look at theology as the only source of their knowledge of God. They rely on life and living with God in their lives to guide them. Their knowledge of theology is not the hallmark of their faith, not that they are learned in it, they just don’t focus on that. They just live it.

It seems if you can’t get someone to say you are absolutely right about everything, you state that they are not knowledgeable or just refuse to learn from you. Accept it or not, you don’t have anything to teach me. You are actually debating with me about the source and quality of my faith. Do you not see how, well, nutty that is? You don’t know me.

 

[Jcc1960]

arthra, could you please answer this question: do you believe that being in the Presence of God is the highest station? It appears that you do, as you stated this here (bold mine):

And then are you of the position that there is a station higher than this “highest station”, since you are positing that the soul progresses?

Yes, or no?

I am certainly not going to speak for Athra, he has a lot of good insights and would like to hear more from him on the subject, including a “yes or no”, but I do have some other things to add which came to me after some prayer and yard work this afternoon.

As always, I try to understand as you do, or anyone else I am discussing religion with. I can see how you are insisting that, once reaching the highest state of the presence of God, there can be no additional progress, because you are already at the highest state. This makes sense if this highest state is in “one flesh union” with God because any change in a person that is in union with God is tantamount to a change in God, which is not possible.

Both the Bab and Baha’u’llah are very clear in their writings that God never changes, He is absolute perfection in every sense, eternally. Therefore the God of Abraham and Moses is identically the same as the God of Jesus. Since Christians believe that Jesus is God it is also essential that Jesus is preexistent, if not it would be a change in God when He appeared.

Of course, Baha’is believe that we do not merge with God in a “one flesh union”, so there is no inconsistency that God is absolute perfection, it is our ultimate goal to be in His presence, and that we may continue to progress in human perfections eternally as we have eternal life, but we never become God, so we never reach the state where there is no more change possible.

I can also mention that we do believe Jesus is preexistent, but not only Jesus, all the Manifestations of God. They are the Word, and creation was brought into being through the Word, so they must be preexistent.

 

[PRmerger]

Nor do I rely on the Catholic church to tell me what Jesus said and did.

Even if this were true you still rely on an institution to tell you what Jesus said and did this institution is the Catholic Church.

Remain comfortable with my ideas? What in the world does this really mean? When one lives their life through living out the Word of God, they are not living by their “own ideas”.

Excellent. Then I hope that you continue to dialogue with other Catholics here to learn some ideas that you may have never considered before.

It may take you out of your comfort zone. But I hope that doesn’t frustrate you into leaving.

 

[PRmerger]

It is kind of amusing that you think theology which is 2000 years old is so new and different.

Could you point to the post where I said that my theology is new and different?

Most Catholics do not look at theology as the only source of their knowledge of God. They rely on life and living with God in their lives to guide them. Their knowledge of theology is not the hallmark of their faith, not that they are learned in it, they just don’t focus on that. They just live it.

Ok.

 

[PRmerger]

Accept it or not, you don’t have anything to teach me.

That’s too bad, Little Star. The above words do not exhibit a humility that is common in faith-filled seekers.

I feel like I always have the ability to learn from other people.

 

[Little_Star_1]

That’s too bad, Little Star. The above words do not exhibit a humility that is common in faith-filled seekers.

I feel like I always have the ability to learn from other people.

PR, I only say this based on the content of your posts. I am glad to hear that you are willing to be open to the beliefs of others and to learn from them. This hasn’t shown to be a factor in what you say concerning my faith and the faith of others. You take what is said and turn it into a Catholic credo and don’t see the disrespect inherit in that.

We are very different in our approaches to God. It isn’t that I haven’t known people with the type of views you have. I just rejected them as being incomplete a long time ago. As you fail to see the substance of my faith, I also don’t think your concepts come across as coming from someone that is a faith filled seeker. You know, this talk is getting us no where don’t you?

 

[Little_Star_1]

That’s too bad, Little Star. The above words do not exhibit a humility that is common in faith-filled seekers.

I feel like I always have the ability to learn from other people.

Or, you out and out deny the ability of people of other faiths to experience communion with God on the same level or extent as you. I have never seen a trace of humility in you. You try to sound conciliatory in one post and then you come back with saying “ah, you have no humility”. Please, you come across as very insincere in wanting to extend yourself. Even your signature to your name is out and out arrogance. I don’t want to fight with you. But, you are pointing fingers at me because I refuse to see things your way, or because I will not at least acknowledge you have have some expertise that others, including myself, lack. Maybe you do, but it doesn’t seem to have affected the way you deal with others. You wont be satisfied with anything less than an argument and can’t see it. If you had a different approach, I and others might view your personal faith differently. I am walking out of the room now. I mean, come on, you once called me an animal.

 

[PRmerger]

PR, I only say this based on the content of your posts. I am glad to hear that you are willing to be open to the beliefs of others and to learn from them. This hasn’t shown to be a factor in what you say concerning my faith and the faith of others. You take what is said and turn it into a Catholic credo and don’t see the disrespect inherit in that.

I never ever judge people as unworthy to teach me anything.

And from what I have been taught by other Baha’is here it doesn’t appear to be a quality of humble Baha’is either.

 

[PRmerger]

Or, you out and out deny the ability of people of other faiths to experience communion with God on the same level or extent as you. I have never seen a trace of humility in you. You try to sound conciliatory in one post and then you come back with saying “ah, you have no humility”. Please, you come across as very insincere in wanting to extend yourself. Even your signature to your name is out and out arrogance. I don’t want to fight with you. But, you are pointing fingers at me because I refuse to see things your way, or because I will not at least acknowledge you have have some expertise that others, including myself, lack. Maybe you do, but it doesn’t seem to have affected the way you deal with others. You wont be satisfied with anything less than an argument and can’t see it. If you had a different approach, I and others might view your personal faith differently. I am walking out of the room now. I mean, come on, you once called me an animal.

I am

 

[daler]

So Baha’u’llah teaches that hell is not a physical place. My source for this is here

How do you reconcile the differences?

Pork, Because we live in a “physical” universe, we think in physical terms. It is natural that we should use metaphorical language which reflects the only reality which is known to us.
. Growing up in the midwest, when it was 40 below zero, we used to say: “Its cold as hell outside.”
. Then in the summer, when it was over a hundred, we’d say: “Its hot as hell outside.”

. Baha’is believe that we leave the physical world behind us when we die. We go to a “place” which is not “here or there” in the physical world we now live in. Do I know what that world is? No, but it somehow makes sense to me.
. When the Eskimos were first told that hell was a hot place they all wanted to go there… (so I heard)

John 18:36
Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

. “Know thou, of a truth, that if the soul of man hath walked in the ways of God, it will, assuredly return and be gathered to the glory of the Beloved,” Bahá’u’lláh wrote. “By the righteousness of God! It shall attain a station such as no pen can depict, or tongue can describe.”

In the final analysis, heaven can be seen partly as a state of nearness to God; hell is a state of remoteness from God. Each state follows as a natural consequence of individual efforts, or the lack thereof, to develop spiritually. The key to spiritual progress is to follow the path outlined by the Manifestations of God.

Beyond this, the exact nature of the afterlife remains a mystery. “The nature of the soul after death can never be described,” Bahá’u’lláh writes.

 

[daler]

Baler,

As a follow up to the common belief that we should believe everything that Christ taught, is it your argument that the apostles misunderstood him?

Pork,
. Throughout the New Testament, Christ was “explaining” to them all kinds of things. The fact that He had to explain and explain seems to indicate that they never fully understood all that He had to teach them. As He was coming from a place they had yet to go, this meant that they were always challenged in their thinking, having to expand their world view.

. This is what I get out of the Bible and what I get out of the Baha’i Writings. I think any of us only get a portion of what the Manifestations of God are saying. We can study for a lifetime and continuously learn more and gain new perspectives.
. Does that mean that we “misunderstand” Him? No, I think it means that there is always more for us to learn and come to understand. Does that make sense?

. We understand things according to the frame of reference that we have. Jesus talked to farmers about Heavens from their frame of reference:

. “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field.”

. He doesn’t say the Kingdom of Heaven “is” a mustard seed… but uses this metaphor to enable His audience to visualize something from a context they can work with.

. The concept of Hell may be likened to a fiery sulphur pit to those who are familiar with such a place. It serves the purpose to tell people basically you don’t want to turn away from God or you will suffer.
. The North Pole could serve the same purpose, if you’ve ever been really cold.

 

[PRmerger]

I mean, come on, you once called me an animal.

I can assure you that if I ever called anyone an animal on the CAFs a moderator would have given me an infraction.

As this has never happened it appears that you are simply grasping at some hysteria here.

What I said was that only animals do not try to intellectualize. To change that statement into “PR called me an animal!” is, well, just weird.

I offer my original post as evidence to all of the ridiculous claim made by Little Star that I ever called her an animal.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11007825&postcount=807

 

[Little_Star_1]

I never ever judge people as unworthy to teach me anything.

And from what I have been taught by other Baha’is here it doesn’t appear to be a quality of humble Baha’is either.

Do you not see the contradiction in what you just said? You don’t judge but the Baha’i on here aren’t humble. You have a signature line that states that you are right about everything and then discuss the humbleness of others? Is it that we are to be humble when approaching you and you are not to return that level of respect? This is all so very strange. This is no longer a discussion of religious counterparts. You really don’t see what you do do you? What your words cause to arise in others, this is not of God. Yet, you don’t see it. You called me an animal and a few days later called me rude and threatened to have me banned because I would not submit to your view. This is not of the heart of a Christian. It is not of God. You don’t understand when I say your words make your faith seem to lack depth, then your words continue in the same vein and you don’t see it. First and foremost, a Christian needs to have some self awareness. Without it, your faith has no depth. You will come back and pick and chose which of my words to address, leaving out those that hit on the most truth of your understanding. You are but a child. I know this. You must come to see it and most likely you will. Open your eyes and wake up.

 

[Little_Star_1]

I can assure you that if I ever called anyone an animal on the CAFs a moderator would have given me an infraction.

As this has never happened it appears that you are simply grasping at some hysteria here.

What I said was that only animals do not try to intellectualize. To change that statement into “PR called me an animal!” is, well, just weird.

I offer my original post as evidence to all of the ridiculous claim made by Little Star that I ever called her an animal.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11007825&postcount=807

PR you did. I should have known better than to engage in a discussion with you. It isn’t possible. Do you really think your behavior is Christian?

 

[PRmerger]

Do you not see the contradiction in what you just said? You don’t judge but the Baha’i on here aren’t humble. You have a signature line that states that you are right about everything and then discuss the humbleness of others? Is it that we are to be humble when approaching you and you are not to return that level of respect? This is all so very strange. This is no longer a discussion of religious counterparts. You really don’t see what you do do you? What your words cause to arise in others, this is not of God. Yet, you don’t see it. You called me an animal and a few days later called me rude and threatened to have me banned because I would not submit to your view. This is not of the heart of a Christian. It is not of God. You don’t understand when I say your words make your faith seem to lack depth, then your words continue in the same vein and you don’t see it. First and foremost, a Christian needs to have some self awareness. Without it, your faith has no depth. You will come back and pick and chose which of my words to address, leaving out those that hit on the most truth of your understanding. You are but a child. I know this. You must come to see it and most likely you will. Open your eyes and wake up.

I am through talking with you, Little Star.

Fortunately for the Baha’i faith I am wise enough to not judge the faith by you. Rather I will continue to learn from other Baha’is.

 

[daler]

Do you not see the contradiction in what you just said? You don’t judge but the Baha’i on here aren’t humble. You have a signature line that states that you are right about everything and then discuss the humbleness of others? Is it that we are to be humble when approaching you and you are not to return that level of respect? This is all so very strange. This is no longer a discussion of religious counterparts. You really don’t see what you do do you? What your words cause to arise in others, this is not of God. Yet, you don’t see it. You called me an animal and a few days later called me rude and threatened to have me banned because I would not submit to your view. This is not of the heart of a Christian. It is not of God. You don’t understand when I say your words make your faith seem to lack depth, then your words continue in the same vein and you don’t see it. First and foremost, a Christian needs to have some self awareness. Without it, your faith has no depth. You will come back and pick and chose which of my words to address, leaving out those that hit on the most truth of your understanding. You are but a child. I know this. You must come to see it and most likely you will. Open your eyes and wake up.

 

[daler]

…

Time out, good friends. How about we all listen to a song:

Let there be Peace on Earth, by Vince Gill…

youtube.com/watch?v=86_4BesaOVc

 

[Little_Star_1]

I can assure you that if I ever called anyone an animal on the CAFs a moderator would have given me an infraction.

As this has never happened it appears that you are simply grasping at some hysteria here.

What I said was that only animals do not try to intellectualize. To change that statement into “PR called me an animal!” is, well, just weird.

I offer my original post as evidence to all of the ridiculous claim made by Little Star that I ever called her an animal.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11007825&postcount=807

So, you want to hold me up to ridicule? It most certainly was implied. Oh, you didn’t intend to imply it?

 

[Little_Star_1]

I am through talking with you, Little Star.

Fortunately for the Baha’i faith I am wise enough to not judge the faith by you. Rather I will continue to learn from other Baha’is.

Didn’t ask you to judge the faith by me as I am a Christian. I keep telling you that. But, as far as not judging the faith, just a few seconds ago you judged all the Baha’i on here as not being humble. Also, why is it so fortunate for the Baha’i faith that you would make a determination regarding them one way or another that you regard as charitable? I must have missed something. Who are you exactly? Learn yourself PR and grow. Don’t worry about learning about anyone else, just learn yourself first.

 

[PRmerger]

I am certainly not going to speak for Athra, he has a lot of good insights and would like to hear more from him on the subject, including a “yes or no”, but I do have some other things to add which came to me after some prayer and yard work this afternoon.

As always, I try to understand as you do, or anyone else I am discussing religion with. I can see how you are insisting that, once reaching the highest state of the presence of God, there can be no additional progress, because you are already at the highest state.

Yes.

This makes sense if this highest state is in “one flesh union” with God because any change in a person that is in union with God is tantamount to a change in God, which is not possible

.

Actually the highest state for the human person is the beatific vision.