P
PRmerger
Guest
Yes. The above is quite consonant with Catholic teaching.
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D
daler
Guest
It might be of interest to read the following Wikipedia link about the beatific vision and its parallels in other religions:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatific_vision
There is some parallel as well among some Native Americans in the Hanblechiyapi, or the “Vision Quest”, although the visions associated with this are varied and not necessarily specific as per the intended definition being articulated here.
From the Baha’ perspective, I think that it is never possible to actually “see” God in the fullness of His Essence, which shall always remain beyond human capacity, whether in this world or the next.
. “By “attainment unto the divine Presence” is meant attainment unto the presence of His Beauty in the person of His Manifestation.” from the Writings of the Bab
. “However, let none construe these utterances to be anthropomorphism, nor
see in them the descent of the worlds of God into the grades of the
creatures; nor should they lead thine Eminence to such assumptions. For God
is, in His Essence, holy above ascent and descent, entrance and exit; He
hath through all eternity been free of the attributes of human creatures,
and ever will remain so. No man hath ever known Him; no soul hath ever
found the pathway to His Being. Every mystic knower hath wandered far
astray in the valley of the knowledge of Him; every saint hath lost his way
in seeking to comprehend His Essence. Sanctified is He above the
understanding of the wise; exalted is He above the knowledge of the knowing!
The way is barred and to seek it is impiety; His proof is His signs; His
being is His evidence.”
(Baha'u'llah: Seven Valleys and Four Valleys, Pages: 22-23)
P
PRmerger
Guest
I believe that most religions say something similar to the above.
D
daler
Guest
Yes, there is a “universality” to many core beliefs in the world’s religious systems.
It is necessary, when viewing the many variations of religions, as handed down over aeons, to attempt to discern the truth of what has been originally given by God to His children, throughout the world, from what would appear to be additions to, or distortions of, the original teachings.
This point is very important to consider, for historically, it is quite apparent that numerous “interpretations” have been superimposed upon the original teachings according to the understanding of men.
When Baha’is speak of the “Oneness” of Religion, it has to do with the Divine Origin of Religion, and not what people have made of it. The following addresses this idea. I would welcome your comments upon reflection. Thank you,
. “O contending peoples and kindreds of the earth! Set your faces towards unity, and let the radiance of its light shine upon you. Gather ye together, and for the sake of God resolve to root out whatever is the source of contention amongst you. Then will the effulgence of the world’s great Luminary envelop the whole earth, and its inhabitants become the citizens of one city, and the occupants of one and the same throne. This wronged One hath, ever since the early days of His life, cherished none other desire but this, and will continue to entertain no wish except this wish. There can be no doubt whatever that the peoples of the world, of whatever race or religion, derive their inspiration from one heavenly Source, and are the subjects of one God. The difference between the ordinances under which they abide should be attributed to the varying requirements and exigencies of the age in which they were revealed. All of them, except a few which are the outcome of human perversity, were ordained of God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Arise and, armed with the power of faith, shatter to pieces the gods of your vain imaginings, the sowers of dissension amongst you. Cleave unto that which draweth you together and uniteth you. This, verily, is the most exalted Word which the Mother Book hath sent down and revealed unto you. To this beareth witness the Tongue of Grandeur from His habitation of glory.”
A
arthra
Guest
Someone above wrote:
"Christ teachings on hell is that it IS a physical place. That is what he taught the apostles…it’s what the apostles wrote in the bible and it’s what the Church has believed for 2,000 years. This conflicts with Baha’u’llah teaching hell is not a physical place.
So Baha’u’llah teaches that hell is not a physical place. My source for this is here
How do you reconcile the differences?"
…
It is true that Baha’is believe “hell” is a spiritual condition and that is signifies remoteness from God. While many believe in hell as a physical place. It would probably follow that they also believe heaven is a physical place…Baha’is do not hold this view and so it is a distinction of Baha’i belief…
"Hell is simply deprivation of that knowledge of
God with consequent failure to attain divine perfection, and
loss of the Eternal Favor. He definitely declared that these terms
have no real meaning apart from this; and that the prevalent
ideas regarding the resurrection of the material body, a material
heaven and hell, and the like, are mere figments of the
imagination. He taught that man has a life after death, and
that in the afterlife progress towards perfection is limitless."
~ Dr. J.E. Esslemont, Baha’u’llah and the New Era, p. 20)
"Christ teachings on hell is that it IS a physical place. That is what he taught the apostles…it’s what the apostles wrote in the bible and it’s what the Church has believed for 2,000 years. This conflicts with Baha’u’llah teaching hell is not a physical place.
So Baha’u’llah teaches that hell is not a physical place. My source for this is here
How do you reconcile the differences?"
…
It is true that Baha’is believe “hell” is a spiritual condition and that is signifies remoteness from God. While many believe in hell as a physical place. It would probably follow that they also believe heaven is a physical place…Baha’is do not hold this view and so it is a distinction of Baha’i belief…
"Hell is simply deprivation of that knowledge of
God with consequent failure to attain divine perfection, and
loss of the Eternal Favor. He definitely declared that these terms
have no real meaning apart from this; and that the prevalent
ideas regarding the resurrection of the material body, a material
heaven and hell, and the like, are mere figments of the
imagination. He taught that man has a life after death, and
that in the afterlife progress towards perfection is limitless."
~ Dr. J.E. Esslemont, Baha’u’llah and the New Era, p. 20)
J
Jcc1960
Guest
If Christians believe that hell is a physical place, then the question I would ask is WHERE is it?
I noted earlier that it is true Jesus said “fear not that which can kill the body but cannot kill the soul, rather the one that destroys both body and soul in hell”. The way I would understand that is that hell is a condition of remoteness from God of a lost soul. This remoteness may exist even when alive with a physical body, and because of the self destructive tendencies of a tortured soul, it can result in the body being destroyed as well.
I noted earlier that it is true Jesus said “fear not that which can kill the body but cannot kill the soul, rather the one that destroys both body and soul in hell”. The way I would understand that is that hell is a condition of remoteness from God of a lost soul. This remoteness may exist even when alive with a physical body, and because of the self destructive tendencies of a tortured soul, it can result in the body being destroyed as well.
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Servant19
Guest
I don’t understand this post Reuben. Why is the question being asked redundant?Very clever but redundant, Servant, really.
The saints in heaven are blissfully enjoying and reveling in the presence of the Lamb of God; and while for the faithful on earth they are looking forwards in the hope of the thing to come.
Amen.
S
Servant19
Guest
This may be a very funny statement PR, but the reality is that heaven is a place where QUALITIES are experienced.
If your experience of heaven is one of joy, then I would posit that there may well be someone who is experiencing MORE joy, since joy is an attribute of the soul.
The reason why Baha’is believe that this is an infinite journey for the soul, is that the soul is the body of the entire attributes of God. As these attributes are developed and the soul manifests more and more the attributes of God, naturally, this would imply that we would become more and more ONE with God, and “experience” more and more FULLY this “beautific vision”, which really is not a totally foreign concept to Baha’is (although it is a term not used)
Since qualities and attributes are infinite and they can be infinitely developed (i.e… however much you are loving, there is always a possibility to be more loving. However much you are just, there is always a possibility to be more just) it is naturally realistic to imply that your soul, which harbours these attributes of God, progresses and perfects itself infinitely.
It may sound daunting to human minds that consider journeys according to “human” and “physical” terms, and relate a journey to “time” however, we must remember that the spiritual world that the Baha’i theology is putting forward is devoid of ALL physical things, and as a result, there is no sun, and therefore there is no time.
Having no time is a concept beyond human comprehension, so how it “looks” in the next world is as unknown as the “new heaven and new earth” that Christianity posits (and I personally believe that they are the same thing).
Don’t worry however, when we are spiritually developing our soul according to the Will of God, then the bliss will be beyond anything experienced on this earthly plane, and will continue to get more blissful eternally. Just when you thought “Wow!! This is so blissful, being in the presence of God!!” …suddenly you are propelled towards an EVEN MORE blissful state of greater and closer communion with your Beloved.
I pray and hope these thoughts will be worthy of your consideration
S
Servant19
Guest
PR, it is unbecoming of you to make these “matter of fact” statements without giving any reasons…
L
Little_Star_1
Guest
Very beautifully stated. This is very similar to the Lessons in Divine Love by Julian of Norwich. She states that she was “shown” how this life is a continual progression towards God’s perfection and that the bliss that we shall feel upon reaching a closer union with God, or relationship with, is far beyond anything we can imagine in our Earthly lives.This may be a very funny statement PR, but the reality is that heaven is a place where QUALITIES are experienced.
If your experience of heaven is one of joy, then I would posit that there may well be someone who is experiencing MORE joy, since joy is an attribute of the soul.
The reason why Baha’is believe that this is an infinite journey for the soul, is that the soul is the body of the entire attributes of God. As these attributes are developed and the soul manifests more and more the attributes of God, naturally, this would imply that we would become more and more ONE with God, and “experience” more and more FULLY this “beautific vision”, which really is not a totally foreign concept to Baha’is (although it is a term not used)
Since qualities and attributes are infinite and they can be infinitely developed (i.e… however much you are loving, there is always a possibility to be more loving. However much you are just, there is always a possibility to be more just) it is naturally realistic to imply that your soul, which harbours these attributes of God, progresses and perfects itself infinitely.
It may sound daunting to human minds that consider journeys according to “human” and “physical” terms, and relate a journey to “time” however, we must remember that the spiritual world that the Baha’i theology is putting forward is devoid of ALL physical things, and as a result, there is no sun, and therefore there is no time.
Having no time is a concept beyond human comprehension, so how it “looks” in the next world is as unknown as the “new heaven and new earth” that Christianity posits (and I personally believe that they are the same thing).
Don’t worry however, when we are spiritually developing our soul according to the Will of God, then the bliss will be beyond anything experienced on this earthly plane, and will continue to get more blissful eternally. Just when you thought “Wow!! This is so blissful, being in the presence of God!!” …suddenly you are propelled towards an EVEN MORE blissful state of greater and closer communion with your Beloved.
I pray and hope these thoughts will be worthy of your consideration
While sin is a hated and retched thing, it is part of our progression, falling away and then returning, It is the manner in which we grow in this plane. It is why we are here. At one point, she likens it to a prison where we pay penance. However, while she does liken it to a prison, a person must not carry this to the point of concluding that experiencing human life is a punishment. That would be taking her illustration too far. I think she just uses it as an illustration to allow the imagery to teach a lesson to our hearts. For in many other places she discusses how life is a gift, It is an opportunity to draw closer to God and there is nothing but joy in this.
L
Little_Star_1
Guest
Christians do not believe that hell is a physical place, at least I never understood it that way. While we believe it is a “place”, I was taught it is in the spiritual realm. So, thinking of it as a “place” like a city or town would be error. Whoever stated that it was a physical place according to our beliefs most likely did not communicate the teachings regarding it well, or was misunderstood.
Within the Christian faith, numerous imaginings have cropped up over time in regards to hell. A former Minister of mine told me that our concepts of hell really developed after Dante wrote the “Infernal”. Before that, not a whole lot was discussed regarding it. It comes up in the Bible but is not something to focus upon. One Pope stated that Heaven and Hell are states of being rather than places.
I agree with my former Minister. It is one of those things that I feel cannot be completely held in our natural understanding. For those that seek communion with God, I do not think it is not a concern worth trying to figure out. I also agree with the Pope in terms of Heaven and Hell being a “state of being” while we are living. There are times or periods in our lives where we can experience bliss or joy to the point of regarding ourselves within the Heavenly realm in the part of our beings that is spiritual. I think also that we can live through such horrendous times where this part of us is “going through” Hell. As we refine our being, I think it can actually be within us to “be of” Heaven or Hell and we project this out to others in our dealings with them. Part of progressing towards greater communion with God is being aware of the state from which we chose to operate our lives, to make amends for it, if necessary, and to move closer to that state which keeps us more deeply within His grace.
From my understanding of the Baha’i teachings, they have the same view as Christians in this.
All that said, I do believe that there is a realm within the spiritual plane where souls reside after death that have chosen not to live their lives according to God’s commands and have
chosen to reject living in communion with God, that were more tied to the material than the spiritual in life. How all this works out though is not clear to me and I don’t really focus on it. If you seek God’s love for the sake of your love for Him and His for you, why worry about it?
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SteveVH
Guest
PR was asked what words from Baha’i writings are not truth. She answered that question. It would be impossible to give an adequate reason as to why each of them is not true in a post or two. It would be much more useful to focus on issues such as these, one at a time, in order to have a productive dialogue. It is very easy to ask a question, the answer to which requires pages in order to be adequately answered.
In my opinion, however, there is no need to dwell on any other aspect of the Baha’i faith until the claim that Baha’u’llah is the second coming of Christ is adequately explored; questioned and defended. If everything else that the Baha’i faith taught was true, it would not matter. I would hold Jesus Christ to the same standard. If Jesus has not been resurrected and has not defeated sin and death then nothing else that he said matters. We are to be pitied among all men.
We have touched upon this subject and when I challenged the Baha’i interpretation of the first 30 verses of Matthew 24, which in a nutshell claims that Jesus’ second coming will be subtle, obscure, and many people will, or have missed it, just as they missed his first coming, I never received a response to my specific points.
So Baha’u’llah’s claim to be the second coming of Christ is, in my opinion, the biggest untruth of all. And my reason for stating this can be found in the first 30 verses of the 24th chapter of Matthew.
L
Little_Star_1
Guest
I want to add that, in the above post, where I talked about being in a “state of hell”, so to speak, I don’t think these times in our lives can be avoided. Part of living and growing means that we will experience these times. There is no reward, punishment part of it, just life. I do believe that we can move through them more smoothly and come out of them having learned what was intended by the experience, the more closely we draw to God during these times. At some point, one may be granted a type of peace that, no matter what assails us, the peace within our souls is not shaken. I have met, especially when I was younger, elderly people that had this type of grace around them. I have not recently met many people like this. It could be that our times are so complicated and what is going on in this nation and globally cause a level of concern that has not been seen in a very long time. Maybe since WWII. It is hard to be at peace when the world is in such crazy straits. However, I think we are called to make our way to this as much as possible no matter the times in which we live.
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SteveVH
Guest
We do not believe that hell is a physical place. It is a state of being; a state in which one is separated completely from God and from every attribute of God; beauty, goodness, love, compassion, mercy, understanding, warmth, light… Hell is a very real “place”, but not physical. We believe the same about heaven. It is a state of being; of complete oneness with God. Does it rule out the physical? No. We may very well interact with the physical, but it will be a new heaven and a new earth. But like heaven, hell is not located in some specific place in the physical universe.
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SteveVH
Guest
Little Star, have you ever looked upon the trials in our lives as opportunities to take up our cross daily and follow Jesus? We must always remember that there is no resurrection without the crucifixion. If we are the body of Christ, we will suffer, but we, like Christ, can join this suffering to the cross where it gains salvific value. This requires us to do what Jesus did. “Father, not my will but yours be done”. This surrender of oneself, even in suffering, is what brings peace in the midst of that suffering. This is not an easy thing to accomplish, but Jesus has shown us the way by his own example.
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Little_Star_1
Guest
Steve,
I think that you pretty much repeated, though using more traditional terminology than I, what I said about going through states of living hell. I don’t get why people don’t see a thing unless it is dressed in the manner in which they are accustomed to seeing it. I chose to use words that would hopefully make the ideology recognizable, or feeling of it, available to those outside of the Christian faith, taking for granted that the Christians among us would see the Christian thought within it. This is where living faith and knowing God through living faith differs from the acceptance of religious dogma. You know the voice of Christ when you hear it because you know him and his way of living and dying for the children of his Father.
I will give you a further example. I once told my Abbott that I felt as if I was going through a time where I was living in and from a type of “fold” of God. He immediately knew what I was talking about and said, you mean you are aware that you are living inside of God’s grace. He said this means that you are awake. He knew without hesitation what I meant by “fold”. I put it that way because that was the imagery that was placed in my mind.
S
SteveVH
Guest
Little Star, may I ask why you believe Jesus started a Church, and what you believe the nature of that Church to be?
S
SteveVH
Guest
I don’t believe that the meaning of suffering can be understood outside of Christianity. We must bring Christ into the picture, especially to those outside of the Christian faith, and use his example. I am not interested in bringing people a “feeling” of something. Christ brought us divine truth and that truth should not be hidden because we are speaking with people who may not be familiar with it.
And I am not sure why one should place their own understanding above Religious dogma or doctrine. Religious dogma is nothing more than a set of principles which we believe have been divinely revealed by God himself. Why would we want to ignore them, or place our own understanding above them? Christ revealed truth to the Apostles who then handed that truth down to their successors.
We have believed that same Apostolic truth for 2000 years. It seems that you believe that religious dogma is only for those who wish to blindly follow something, who have no capability of thinking on their own. The doctrines and dogmas of the Catholic Church are the deposit of faith given to us by Christ himself and it is the duty and mission of the Church to protect that deposit of faith from error. That is why we have dogmas and doctrines. Christianity is not a religion based upon the collective opinion of individuals. It is a religion of divinely revealed truth which we are obligated to believe because it was given to us by God himself.
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Little_Star_1
Guest
Steve,
You aren’t getting my meaning. I am not saying that anyone should place their own understanding above doctrine. Doctrine is the understanding that the church has reached. What I was talking about was learning the meaning of this understanding and seeing it play out in your life. If one cannot do this, what is the point of following a doctrine at all?
I was talking about the phrasing of an experience in a manner that does not use the same words as church doctrine but illustrates the same point. I was not talking about not following doctrine. If you can’t apply your religion to what you go through in life, good or bad, you aren’t in communion with God. If you are in communion with God, you will then recognize His working in your life.
Also, Truth is universal Steve. What applies to Christians applies to everyone. Individuals of other faiths have experienced the same communion with God as Christians. I refuse to place any limits on God’s reaching others that for some reason would not have been exposed in the same manner to Christian ideology as those of us born into Christian homes. To do so is a type of bigotry.
I know that many within the Catholic church do not accept that knowing God is possible outside of the Catholic church. I know many Protestants that have a similar view about being Protestant and think Catholics are following a doctrine that is false. As for me, I am a non-denominational Christian for this very reason. I know many other Christians, of both persuasions, that, like me, don’t accept that God reserves His teachings under one particular banner, especially when you are talking about something like suffering. My goodness Steve, what a cruel and down right unGodly thing to say.
But, when you say you follow Christ’s teachings and cannot recognize them when they are verbalized in a manner other than the one you are used to seeing them in, you can’t say you truly have them placed in your heart. We were talking about the same thing.
What is the point of speaking to people of other faiths if one is not open to allowing them to see that what we experience of God is no different than what they experience? I am speaking for myself here. You don’t have to share in this goal. I see it as part of the gifts that God has given me, the desire to reach out to others that only appear to be different than myself.
S
SteveVH
Guest
Well, it seems a simple truth that if we are not living what we profess to believe then the words we profess are meaningless. If that is all you were trying to say then I agree 100%.
Absolutely. Whether or not they are aware.
Here is where we part company. If individuals of other faiths experience the same communion with God as Christians, then please explain to me why Christ bothered to start a Church at all? Why did the Apostles warn the Christians of their day not to listen to anyone unless it was one of them or one whom they had sent?. Do you think the Egyptians, with their many gods, had the same communion as the Apostles? How about the Romans?
The Catholic Church believes that God draws all people to himself and that every religion contains truth to one degree or another. The Church believes that the truth that exists in these religions is a preparation for the Gospel. But they still must hear the Gospel in order to receive the truth and preaching the Gospel is not bigotry in any form. To ignore the errors in other religions in the name of tolerance and charity is misguided thinking.
That simply is not true. The Church says that the fullness of truth exists within the Catholic faith and only within the Catholic faith. It does not say that others cannot know God or that truth does not exist outside of the Church. It is the fullness of that truth which does not exist outside of the Church.
Excuse me? What did I say that is cruel and down right ungodly to say? That the true meaning of suffering is found only in Jesus? You have a strange way of interpreting words.
Are you now judging whether or not I have placed Christ’s teachings in my heart? Really?
Because the Christian experience of God is different then what they experience. As a Catholic I become one flesh with my God. Does that happen in Buddhism, or Hinduism, or Islam or any other faith on the planet? Can anyone claim that same experience? Why do you think we are suppose to proclaim the Gospel from the roof tops? If everyone already has the same experience, what is the point?
Tolerance of error when it concerns our eternal destiny is not being charitable and pointing it out is not being a bigot.
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