Baha'i Returns Thread: Ask Any of Many Baha'i

[Little_Star_1]

Well, it seems a simple truth that if we are not living what we profess to believe then the words we profess are meaningless. If that is all you were trying to say then I agree 100%.

Absolutely. Whether or not they are aware.

Here is where we part company. If individuals of other faiths experience the same communion with God as Christians, then please explain to me why Christ bothered to start a Church at all? Why did the Apostles warn the Christians of their day not to listen to anyone unless it was one of them or one whom they had sent?. Do you think the Egyptians, with their many gods, had the same communion as the Apostles? How about the Romans?

The Catholic Church believes that God draws all people to himself and that every religion contains truth to one degree or another. The Church believes that the truth that exists in these religions is a preparation for the Gospel. But they still must hear the Gospel in order to receive the truth and preaching the Gospel is not bigotry in any form. To ignore the errors in other religions in the name of tolerance and charity is misguided thinking.

That simply is not true. The Church says that the fullness of truth exists within the Catholic faith and only within the Catholic faith. It does not say that others cannot know God or that truth does not exist outside of the Church. It is the fullness of that truth which does not exist outside of the Church.

Excuse me? What did I say that is cruel and down right ungodly to say? That the true meaning of suffering is found only in Jesus? You have a strange way of interpreting words.

Are you now judging whether or not I have placed Christ’s teachings in my heart? Really?

Because the Christian experience of God is different then what they experience. As a Catholic I become one flesh with my God. Does that happen in Buddhism, or Hinduism, or Islam or any other faith on the planet? Can anyone claim that same experience? Why do you think we are suppose to proclaim the Gospel from the roof tops? If everyone already has the same experience, what is the point?

Tolerance of error when it concerns our eternal destiny is not being charitable and pointing it out is not being a bigot.

Steve,

I said what I believe and you do not have to agree with me. Many other Christians that I know do agree with me, and many of them include Catholics. We all come on here from different backgrounds and different experiences. Your idea of Christianity comes from your background and your experiences, your parents, your church. Mine comes from my own. It is unlikely that we will see eye to eye. But, yeah, I found your comment to be cruel and without any sense of reality regarding the love of God for all creation. Given the level of suffering in the world today, wow, you missed the mark. As a Christian, I feel required to tell you that. You don’t have to agree with me. Just expressing my view. It is funny how so many of the Christians on here can say things that are really belittling of the beliefs of others and when someone makes an observation about their beliefs, their backs get up. No, Christ would not have said that only those that follow him can understand suffering. He may have invited them to lay their suffering at his feet. But, he certainly would not have said that they could not understand suffering or its purpose. To say such a thing is to deny their basic humanity.

 

[SteveVH]

Steve,

But, yeah, I found your comment to be cruel and without any sense of reality regarding the love of God for all creation. Given the level of suffering in the world today, wow, you missed the mark. As a Christian, I feel required to tell you that.

Okay, this is becoming truly bizarre at this point. :hypno: Please quote, in full, my comment that you find so offensive. I have no idea what you are talking about? As a matter of fact, if it is so offensive, please do your duty and report me to the moderators.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Steve,

I said what I believe and you do not have to agree with me. Many other Christians that I know do agree with me, and many of them include Catholics. We all come on here from different backgrounds and different experiences. Your idea of Christianity comes from your background and your experiences, your parents, your church. Mine comes from my own. It is unlikely that we will see eye to eye. But, yeah, I found your comment to be cruel and without any sense of reality regarding the love of God for all creation. Given the level of suffering in the world today, wow, you missed the mark. As a Christian, I feel required to tell you that. You don’t have to agree with me. Just expressing my view. It is funny how so many of the Christians on here can say things that are really belittling of the beliefs of others and when someone makes an observation about their beliefs, their backs get up. No, Christ would not have said that only those that follow him can understand suffering. He may have invited them to lay their suffering at his feet. But, he certainly would not have said that they could not understand suffering or its purpose. To say such a thing is to deny their basic humanity.

Why is it whenever your confronted you act like a victim?

 

[Little_Star_1]

Okay, this is becoming truly bizarre at this point. :hypno: Please quote, in full, my comment that you find so offensive. I have no idea what you are talking about? As a matter of fact, if it is so offensive, please do your duty and report me to the moderators.

“***I don’t believe that the meaning of suffering can be understood outside of Christianity. ***/B]We must bring Christ into the picture, especially to those outside of the Christian faith, and use his example.”

Steve, I am sorry, I thought I was clear. It was not offensive on a personal level in terms of being insulting to me. So, in that vein, I would not report you. It was offensive in that it denies the ability of another people, outside of the Christian church, to understand the role of suffering.

This is a pretty basic principle when it comes to all of humanity and not necessarily religious in nature. Actually, even within Christianity the role played by suffering differs. Some see it as punishment for sins. Others see it as a way to test one’s faith. Others say it builds faith and endurance and is to be celebrated. The one I think you discussed is the offering up of pain for transformation and redemption. This is actually similar to the Muslim view which states it will “strengthen one’s faith, as pain often leads to repentance and prayer and good deeds.”

Here is what I found on the Baha’i view:

`Abdu’l-Bahá. – “The mind and spirit of man advance when he is tried by suffering. The more the ground is ploughed the better the seed will grow, the better the harvest will be. Just as the plough furrows the earth deeply, purifying it of weeds and thistles, so suffering and tribulation free man from the petty affairs of this worldly life until he arrives at a state of complete detachment. His attitude in this world will be that of divine happiness. Man is, so to speak, unripe: the heat of the fire of suffering will mature him. Look back to the times past and you will find that the greatest men have suffered most.”

and,

“He who through suffering has attained development, should he fear happiness?”

`Abdu’l-Bahá. – “Through suffering he will attain to an eternal happiness which nothing can take from him. The apostles of Christ suffered: they attained eternal happiness.”

“Then it is impossible to attain happiness without suffering?”

`Abdu’l-Bahá. – "To attain eternal happiness one must suffer. He who has reached the state of self-sacrifice has true joy. Temporal joy will vanish."1

Really, all one has to do is simply talk to someone of another culture and faith to realize that our concepts of the role of suffering is not unique to Christianity.

 

[PRmerger]

The Catholic Church believes that God draws all people to himself and that every religion contains truth to one degree or another.

Yes. This has already been explained.

There are those who cannot argue against the truths of the Catholic religion so they choose to ignore what is actually taught by the Church. They make up their own teachings and
proclaim: this is what the Catholic Church teaches

when they’ve already been told that is not the teaching of the Church.

 

[Little_Star_1]

Why is it whenever your confronted you act like a victim?

Once again, your comments have nothing to do with what I said. Do you really read the posts completely before replying?

In no way did I “play the victim.” Steve’s comment was not addressed to me or my beliefs. So, I was not personally offended.

Also, I don’t understand the purpose of confronting me at all on this topic. I made, which I pretty much do with every posting, the distinction of stating that what I am saying is from my own belief structure I am not speaking for, or out of knowledge, of the Catholic church.

I am not Catholic. So, I cannot speak for the Catholic church, no have I ever tried to do so. In fact, I have stated many times over that most of my beliefs match those of what I have been told are those of the Catholic church. However, I have made note of when the beliefs of the church, as stated by some of the members of this board, differ greatly from those of other Catholics that I know on a personal level. This was one of those times.

 

[SteveVH]

“***I don’t believe that the meaning of suffering can be understood outside of Christianity. ***/B]We must bring Christ into the picture, especially to those outside of the Christian faith, and use his example.”

Steve, I am sorry, I thought I was clear. It was not offensive on a personal level in terms of being insulting to me. So, in that vein, I would not report you. It was offensive in that it denies the ability of another people, outside of the Christian church, to understand the role of suffering.

No, Little Star. It denies one’s ability to understand suffering from the Christian perspective if they have never heard of the Christian perspective of joining our own suffering to that of Christ for the salvation of the world. I’m sorry, but that is a purely Christian perspective and if you find that stating the truth of Christ is offensive because one might have another view then I am sorry. It is Christ’s sacrifice, not Buddha or Krishna or Muhammad or Baha’u’llah’s sacrifice. We find meaning in suffering because Jesus suffered and his suffering redeemed the world. He allows us, as the Body of Christ, to join in his suffering so that it has merit. Not just the merit of making us a better, disciplined person. But true salvific value.

At this point we are beginning to derail the thread and so that is the last I have to say to you on this subject.

 

[SteveVH]

In no way did I “play the victim.” Steve’s comment was not addressed to me or my beliefs. So, I was not personally offended.

One more comment in light of this recent post. The one thing I was so surprised about was that my comment was absolutely directed to you and to you as a Christian and was meant in all charity:

Originaly Posted by SteveVH
Little Star, have you ever looked upon the trials in our lives as opportunities to take up our cross daily and follow Jesus? We must always remember that there is no resurrection without the crucifixion. If we are the body of Christ, we will suffer, but we, like Christ, can join this suffering to the cross where it gains salvific value. This requires us to do what Jesus did. “Father, not my will but yours be done”. This surrender of oneself, even in suffering, is what brings peace in the midst of that suffering. This is not an easy thing to accomplish, but Jesus has shown us the way by his own example.

 

[Jcc1960]

Yes. This has already been explained.

There are those who cannot argue against the truths of the Catholic religion so they choose to ignore what is actually taught by the Church. They make up their own teachings and
proclaim: this is what the Catholic Church teaches

when they’ve already been told that is not the teaching of the Church.

Excellent point. When attempting a dialog, it is essential to listen and learn.

Sometimes misstating the teachings of other faiths is unintentional, because those teachings were not properly understood. If it is done intentionally, that dishonest. There is often a lot of grey area, however, where the person of another faith misstates their own teachings, and then you use that as a straw man to attempt to prove the religion false.

You notice that I have made an effort at times to express clearly what I understand to be Catholic teachings from a Catholic perspective to let you know that I am listening and understanding.

 

[PRmerger]

Excellent point. When attempting a dialog, it is essential to listen and learn.

Sometimes misstating the teachings of other faiths is unintentional, because those teachings were not properly understood. If it is done intentionally, that dishonest. There is often a lot of grey area, however, where the person of another faith misstates their own teachings, and then you use that as a straw man to attempt to prove the religion false.

You notice that I have made an effort at times to express clearly what I understand to be Catholic teachings from a Catholic perspective to let you know that I am listening and understanding.

 

[Servant19]

Friends, can I humbly ask that this dialogue between Little Star and the Catholivs be conducted on another thread please, unless it pertains specifically to Bahai matters?

Thanks and God bless

 

[Little_Star_1]

No, Little Star. It denies one’s ability to understand suffering from the Christian perspective if they have never heard of the Christian perspective of joining our own suffering to that of Christ for the salvation of the world. I’m sorry, but that is a purely Christian perspective and if you find that stating the truth of Christ is offensive because one might have another view then I am sorry. It is Christ’s sacrifice, not Buddha or Krishna or Muhammad or Baha’u’llah’s sacrifice. We find meaning in suffering because Jesus suffered and his suffering redeemed the world. He allows us, as the Body of Christ, to join in his suffering so that it has merit. Not just the merit of making us a better, disciplined person. But true salvific value.

At this point we are beginning to derail the thread and so that is the last I have to say to you on this subject.

I guess what you are saying is that the Catholic church sees suffering as a way to appreciate Christ’s sacrifice and to join in that. In this way suffering is united to Christ and this cannot be done outside of a Christian perspective of suffering. This is unique to Christianity. I misunderstood you and thought you were speaking of suffering in a general way. The way you introduced the idea, it came across that way.

I also want to clarify where I stated this:

“I know that many within the Catholic church do not accept that knowing God is possible outside of the Catholic church.”

This was poorly worded. I meant that many Catholics that I know believe that God can be known and understood by members of other faiths. What I wrote says the opposite of what I meant to say.

 

[Reuben_J]

I don’t understand this post Reuben. Why is the question being asked redundant?

Why did I say that? It was on page 50 a few days ago. I was commenting on SteveVH post that since Jesus is the Messiah what do we need Bahauillah for?

I said we do not need him and I quoted Acts 4:12, that “salvation can be found in no one else, for there is no other names under heaven given to mankind by which we must saved (but in the name of Jesus).”

And then you asked, “Is salvation all we need?” And then you said to continue to enjoy and revel on this knowledge.

Yes, we need salvation and it can be found only in Jesus and no one else. I can personally testify that salvation is not only experienced in the thereafter but here and now that when by the grace of God through Jesus and by the power of the Holy Spirit, I was delivered from the depth of my misery and directionless in life. I experienced the abundance life of peace and joy in the Lord. I have not heard of Baha’i and I do not need it.

What can we have in Baha’i that we do not have in Christianity already? Nothing.

What can Baha’i offers us that Christianity does not already has? Nothing.

It is in this that your question is redundant. We do not need Baha’i because all that we need, all that there is, is found in Jesus. Baha’i does not offer anything more that had not already been done by Jesus. What you all have explained about Baha’i is totally redundant from a Christian’s perspective. And when something is redundant, it is up to no good and can only be false and meant to confuse and deviate from the truth of Jesus Christ.

For he (Jesus Christ) is the Way, the Truth and the Life. It cannot get any clearer than that.

 

[Jcc1960]

Why did I say that? It was on page 50 a few days ago. I was commenting on SteveVH post that since Jesus is the Messiah what do we need Bahauillah for?

I said we do not need him and I quoted Acts 4:12, that “salvation can be found in no one else, for there is no other names under heaven given to mankind by which we must saved (but in the name of Jesus).”

And then you asked, “Is salvation all we need?” And then you said to continue to enjoy and revel on this knowledge.

Yes, we need salvation and it can be found only in Jesus and no one else. I can personally testify that salvation is not only experienced in the thereafter but here and now that when by the grace of God through Jesus and by the power of the Holy Spirit, I was delivered from the depth of my misery and directionless in life. I experienced the abundance life of peace and joy in the Lord. I have not heard of Baha’i and I do not need it.

What can we have in Baha’i that we do not have in Christianity already? Nothing.

What can Baha’i offers us that Christianity does not already has? Nothing.

It is in this that your question is redundant. We do not need Baha’i because all that we need, all that there is, is found in Jesus. Baha’i does not offer anything more that had not already been done by Jesus. What you all have explained about Baha’i is totally redundant from a Christian’s perspective. And when something is redundant, it is up to no good and can only be false and meant to confuse and deviate from the truth of Jesus Christ.

For he (Jesus Christ) is the Way, the Truth and the Life. It cannot get any clearer than that.

Ruben, you are very correct that the uniqueness of Jesus is a cornerstone of Christian belief.

The only way that faith in Baha’u’llah could be consistent with faith in Christ is if Baha’u’llah is the return of Christ. That is exactly what we believe, so if you look at it from the Baha’i perspective, there is no contradiction with the Bible, or indeed with the Apostles, because they looked forward to His return. As far as names go, Revelation tells us that he will have a new name upon His return, so it would be wrong to cling to the name of Jesus when His name is different upon His return.

Revelation 3:12. The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.

 

[PRmerger]

Ruben, you are very correct that the uniqueness of Jesus is a cornerstone of Christian belief.

The only way that faith in Baha’u’llah could be consistent with faith in Christ is if Baha’u’llah is the return of Christ. That is exactly what we believe, so if you look at it from the Baha’i perspective, there is .

We Catholics cannot believe that he is the return of Christ because he says all those false things that I’ve already indicated.

 

[Servant19]

We Catholics cannot believe that he is the return of Christ because he says all those false things that I’ve already indicated.

PR, we have established that you like to argue the validity of your Faith.

So please convince me how the Baha’i quotes you provided are false, and how the “interpretations” of the Church give it, and you, any validity to deny the truth in the quotes you assert are false…

You are simply basing the falseness of the Baha’i quotes on an “interpretation” which you wish to cling onto for dear life …an interpretation which in all honesty is more than likely to be false in itself…

So convince me please, I am more than willing to listen and explore the truth with you, as long as YOU yourself are looking for truth.

Looking at things subjectively from only ONE viewpoint and excluding ALL other viewpoints is hardly a convincing argument to declare Truth.

Rationally, logically, and scientifically speaking, when you say that what you have discovered from only ONE experiment is the Absolute Truth, is almost laughable.

What if the “interpretation” that you are provided about what you consider to be true is actually a deception from Satan? How would you know for sure that Satan has not deceived you, and the Church?

These are all pertinent questions one must ask oneself before going out and giving blanket falseness to all other theologies.

 

[Servant19]

Why did I say that? It was on page 50 a few days ago. I was commenting on SteveVH post that since Jesus is the Messiah what do we need Bahauillah for?

I said we do not need him and I quoted Acts 4:12, that “salvation can be found in no one else, for there is no other names under heaven given to mankind by which we must saved (but in the name of Jesus).”

And then you asked, “Is salvation all we need?” And then you said to continue to enjoy and revel on this knowledge.

Yes, we need salvation and it can be found only in Jesus and no one else. I can personally testify that salvation is not only experienced in the thereafter but here and now that when by the grace of God through Jesus and by the power of the Holy Spirit, I was delivered from the depth of my misery and directionless in life. I experienced the abundance life of peace and joy in the Lord. I have not heard of Baha’i and I do not need it.

What can we have in Baha’i that we do not have in Christianity already? Nothing.

What can Baha’i offers us that Christianity does not already has? Nothing.

It is in this that your question is redundant. We do not need Baha’i because all that we need, all that there is, is found in Jesus. Baha’i does not offer anything more that had not already been done by Jesus. What you all have explained about Baha’i is totally redundant from a Christian’s perspective. And when something is redundant, it is up to no good and can only be false and meant to confuse and deviate from the truth of Jesus Christ.

For he (Jesus Christ) is the Way, the Truth and the Life. It cannot get any clearer than that.

Hi Reuben, I honour your sincerity and openness to declare how becoming a Catholic has affected your life. It is wonderful that when in the depths of despair one can find God and be propelled towards Him in a manner one may never have ever dreamt about.

I have on several occasions seen the same. A new person is brought into being. I once had a friend who told me his life story and he was in such despair it threatened his life, and upon finding Baha’u’llah he has pursued ALL that is good in life, all that comes from the showers of divine grace when one turns towards that Light. He changed his name from Steven to Quddus (a Baha’i historical hero). Name changing is very unusual in Baha’i circles when one declares their faith in Baha’u’llah, it is more commonly seen in Islam, but Quddus was moved to do the same

He never wished to be called Steve again since he said he has been endowed with a new heaven and a new earth in which he now resides in, and his new name will be Quddus, and so it was. There was not a dry eye in the room when he commenced his path of service towards his Lord, endowed with a new sight and a new spirit…that was 10 years ago, you should look at him now

My question, if I may is, were I to go to a Catholic church tomorrow and say that I wish to become a Catholic, what steps are taken? What exactly happens to me? Am I placed into any programs, prayer meetings, and would I participate in a baptism, Eucharist etc etc.?

Let me know what sorts of things I would be involved in during my first 6 months as a Catholic?

Happy for anyone to answer this question

 

[PRmerger]

PR, we have established that you like to argue the validity of your Faith.

So please convince me how the Baha’i quotes you provided are false, and how the “interpretations” of the Church give it, and you, any validity to deny the truth in the quotes you assert are false…

You are simply basing the falseness of the Baha’i quotes on an “interpretation” which you wish to cling onto for dear life …an interpretation which in all honesty is more than likely to be false in itself…

So convince me please, I am more than willing to listen and explore the truth with you, as long as YOU yourself are looking for truth.

Looking at things subjectively from only ONE viewpoint and excluding ALL other viewpoints is hardly a convincing argument to declare Truth.

Rationally, logically, and scientifically speaking, when you say that what you have discovered from only ONE experiment is the Absolute Truth, is almost laughable.

What if the “interpretation” that you are provided about what you consider to be true is actually a deception from Satan? How would you know for sure that Satan has not deceived you, and the Church?

These are all pertinent questions one must ask oneself before going out and giving blanket falseness to all other theologies.

I think this entire thread has been all about providing reasons why we believe the Baha’i faith is false.

“Blanket statements” have been supported by reasoned explications as to why they are false.

 

[Servant19]

I think this entire thread has been all about providing reasons why we believe the Baha’i faith is false.

“Blanket statements” have been supported by reasoned explications as to why they are false.

…such as saying that the Baha’i understanding of what happens to the soul after death is a FALSE statement…I note you provided “reasoned explication” there. Also have you been there to say that what happens to the soul is false from a Baha’i perspective?

…such as saying that Jesus was PHYSICALLY resurrected, yet Steve and 1 Corinthians both point out that they are not TRULY physical since it is a “spiritual body”…which last time I checked was not a “physical body”

Are these your reasoned explications?

 

[PRmerger]

…such as saying that the Baha’i understanding of what happens to the soul after death is a FALSE statement…I note you provided “reasoned explication” there. Also have you been there to say that what happens to the soul is false from a Baha’i perspective?

There is no need to be sarcastic, Servant. Sarcasm is the protest of the weak. I rarely use it.