Baha'i Understanding of Islam v Christianity

[charlesby]

The Qur’an simply denies the idea that God physically sires children.

“It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, “Be”, and it is. Verily God is my Lord and your Lord: therefore serve Him; this is the Straight Way.” - Qur’an 19:35-36

This teaches that God lacks humility to save mankind, for the sonship of Christ began with his willingness to surrender his form of divinity to became a man.

This sentiment creates legitimacy for subsequent self-proclaimed “prophets” like Muhammed. Yet God does have the humility to send his own son. That is what the whole bible is all about.

Equally it makes Jesus out to be a liar, because he said he was the son of God, on oath.

Mat 26:63 "The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”

Mat 26:64 “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

The high station of Jesus in Islam is unquestioned, He is called “The Word of God” and “The Spirit of God”. What is denied by the Qur’an is that God can be confined and limited to any created thing such as a human form. In the Qur’an, Jesus was and is the perfection of the truth of God who appeared among us on the planet.

What is meant by the “Son of God” is not a man who contains God, but a man who is one with God. There is a big difference, I think. Jesus said that he “came from God” not that he was God, although he retained the soul-identity of God so that he could say that “Before Abraham was born I am.”

John 10:30 "I and the Father are one.”

John 16:27 “No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.”

So termed “Orthodox Catholicism” which actually relates more to human philosophy has frequently been attacked as being anything but biblical. E.g it confounds the Son of God, which refers to the human Jesus, with God in a really confusing way in an extra biblical doctrine termed the hypostatic union, so that the two concepts became merged and the “son of God” became God the Son and just another term for God. But this is not how the bible puts it. The bible teaches that Jesus was a man in every way like any other human except for his origin and therefore his soul-identity.

The term “Son of God” is used throughout the Old and New Testament. In the Old Testament, it refers to those chosen by God, such as the descendents of Seth, and the Kings of Israel.
newadvent.org/cathen/14142b.htm

Son of God in the OT seems to be a harping back to Gen 1:27 (“So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them”). It may also refer to angels or powerful rulers ruling by divine decree e.g. in Gen 6:2. There are a very few references to sons of God in the OT, but their mortality, or their sinfulness, is made clear, so as to avoid any confusion with the true son of God disclosed in prophecy.

Ps 82:6,7 “I said, ‘You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.’
"But you will die like mere mortals; you will fall like every other ruler.”

Gen 6:2 “the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.”

In the NT the idea is introduced of “adopted sons” who are Christians who live in hope of the resurrection from the dead.

But there was only ever one true son of God in every sense - Jesus.

So the title “Son of God” in the New Testament could be understood as meaning Jesus was chosen and anointed by God, that He was and is the Throne of God on this earth.

Jesus Himself stated that “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” - John 4:24

Jesus also said John 3:13 “No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.”

This is ruled erroneous by Muhammad.

There are other passages where Jesus distinguishes Himself from God Himself:

"And when he was gone forth into the way, a certain man running up and kneeling before him, asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may receive life everlasting? And Jesus said to him, Why callest thou me good? None is good but one, that is God. " - Mark 10:17-18

Jesus is a man in the form of man. He is not in the form of God. His soul identity is the Word of God. He is pre-existant. He can acknowledge his Father in heaven as God because he himself is not in the form of God.

I’ll agree that if you said that Jesus was himself “God” then his speech would create problems. But this is why he concedes only that he is the son of God or son of Man.

 

[charlesby]

(continued from part 1)
Actually, the latest Manifestation of God is Baha’u’llah, not Muhammad.

That’s a very unusual theory and not one generally accepted by scholars.

Actually it is. Muhammad was known to be illiterate, and the name of the Jew is well attested, being Muhammad’s friend.

Yes, at one point in human history, slavery was condoned, women had to obey men, polygamy was acceptable, and other emblems of humanity’s spiritual immaturity were allowable.

I don’t think humanity’s spiritual immaturity has changed for the better - check the divorce rate & most of it being done by women.

In this day, God has enjoined on us the standards of spiritual maturity, which include the equality of men and women. As Paul so famously wrote:

“When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.”

Equality as it pertains to this world is an atheist concept and foreign to the bible. The only equality is equality of promise and hope of resurrection. Political communism is not taught in the bible - even if you think it is attractive. In fact, political communism represents “thinking as a child” as its unattainable.

In this Day of the coming of age of the human race, it is now time to put away the conditions of immaturity and don the garments of adulthood.

Yet you don’t even understand the basics of what Christ taught, such as that there will be no more manifestations of divinity until judgement, so how can you talk about maturity?

Actually Islam is extraordinarily monotheistic.

And idolatrous, because it involves casting a mere man, a warlord at that, Muhammad, as the only source of religion on earth.

No, in the Baha’i Faith works come from faith in the Good. Works without an internal relationship with God - that is - a relationship with what is beautiful, loving and true - are without power.

How do you know what is good? How can you know God? How can a sinful soul converse with the divine? How does one expiate one’s sins to see clearly?

There is no question in the Faith that all power and grace comes from the True One and not from us. Here is a prayer from Abdu’l-Baha that embodies that understanding:

"O holy Lord! O Lord of loving-kindness! We stray about Thy dwelling, longing to behold Thy beauty, and loving all Thy ways. We are hapless, lowly, and of small account. We are paupers: show us mercy, give us bounty; look not upon our failings, hide Thou our endless sins. Whatever we are, still are we Thine, and what we speak and hear is praise of Thee, and it is Thy face we seek, Thy path we follow. Thou art the Lord of loving-kindness, we are sinners and astray and far from home. Wherefore, O Cloud of Mercy, grant us some drops of rain. O Flowering Bed of grace, send forth a fragrant breeze. O Sea of all bestowals, roll towards us a great wave. O Sun of Bounty, send down a shaft of light. Grant us pity, grant us grace. By Thy beauty, we come with no provision but our sins, with no good deeds to tell of, only hopes. Unless Thy concealing veil doth cover us, and Thy protection shield and cradle us, what power have these helpless souls to rise and serve Thee, what substance have these wretched ones to make a brave display? Thou Who art the Mighty, the All-Powerful, help us, favor us; withered as we are, revive us with showers from Thy clouds of grace; lowly as we are, illumine us with bright rays from the Day-Star of Thy oneness. Cast Thou these thirsty fish into the ocean of Thy mercy, guide Thou this lost caravan to the shelter of Thy singleness; to the wellspring of guidance lead Thou the ones who have wandered far astray, and grant to those who have missed the path a haven within the precincts of Thy might. Lift Thou to these parched lips the bounteous and soft-flowing waters of heaven, raise up these dead to everlasting life. Grant Thou to the blind eyes that will see. Make Thou the deaf to hear, the dumb to speak. Set Thou the dispirited ablaze, make Thou the heedless mindful, warn Thou the proud, awaken those who sleep.

Thou art the Mighty, Thou art the Bestower, Thou art the Loving. Verily Thou art the Beneficent, the Most Exalted."

Why should the Mighty one answer your prayer if you do not believe in the name of his one and only son Jesus?

John 14:14 “If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.”

If you refuse to invoke the name of Christ despite knowing what he commanded, your prayers will not be answered.

 

[drac16]

I definitely agree that Islam and Christianity are not compatible with each other. We believe in two different Jesuses. The one that I believe in is not the same Jesus that christians believe in. I disagree with practically everything else you said…but hey, we’ve at least agreed on one point!

 

[drac16]

One final thing, dear friend.

Baha’is do consider Muhammad as the final Prophet.
He completed the Adamic Cycle of religious prophecy. All Prophets and Messengers in this religious cycle prophecied about the Day of the Coming of the Promised One.

The “Revealer of all the Books”, “the Sender of all the Messengers” and the “Promised One of all religions” is Baha’u’llah.

Baha’u’llah was the Voice behind the Burning Bush, He was “within Jesus, and Jesus within Him”, and He sent the Angel Gabriel to provide for Muhammad’s Revelation. Baha’u’llah is the begetter of the Holy Spirit. Muhammad was His last Prophet

.

Blatant polytheism that is. It is Allah azza wa jal who takes full credit for both those things.

“And has the story of Moses reached you When he saw a fire and said to his family, ‘Stay here; indeed, I have perceived a fire; perhaps I can bring you a torch or find at the fire some guidance’. And when he came to it, he was called, ‘O Moses, Indeed, I am your Lord, so remove your sandals. Indeed, you are in the sacred valley of Tuwa And I have chosen you, so listen to what is revealed [to you]. Indeed, I am Allah . There is no deity except Me, so worship Me and establish prayer for My remembrance’.” [Qur’an 20:9-14]

Are you meaning to tell me that that was Baha’u’llah literally huddled up inside a bush, speaking to Moses [peace be upon him]? oopsie!

…and, in speaking of laylat-ul-qadr: “Indeed, We sent the Qur’an down during the Night of Decree. And what can make you know what is the Night of Decree? The Night of Decree is better than a thousand months. The angels and the Spirit descend therein by permission of their Lord for every matter” [surah 97]. (there are literally dozens of parellels that affirm that it was God, and God alone, who sent down the Qur’an).

By Baha’u’llah’s permission you say? the author of the Qur’an didn’t think so. See, this is why baha’is cannot be united under the same flag-- and I don’t know why it’s so difficult for you to understand. You are promoting dreadful eisegesis of the Qur’an and trying to force conclusions into the text that simply do not appear there.

 

[arthra]

drac wrote:

*Are you meaning to tell me that that was Baha’u’llah literally huddled up inside a bush, speaking to Moses [peace be upon him]? oopsie!

My comment … No I don’t think we’re talking here about Baha’u’llah as "literally huddled up inside a bush"as the following references should show:

**He (Moses) hearkened unto the Word which the Burning Bush had uttered, **and accepted it; and yet most men are bereft of the power of comprehending this, inasmuch as they have busied themselves with their own concerns, and are unaware of the things which belong unto God.

~ Baha’u’llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 41

and

Oh, how I long to announce unto every spot on the surface of the earth, and to carry to each one of its cities, the glad-tidings of this Revelation – a Revelation to which the heart of Sinai hath been attracted, and in whose name the Burning Bush is calling: 'Unto God, the Lord of Lords, belong the kingdoms of earth and heaven.'

~ Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 16

There are three levels or planes that we believe are present in a Manifestation:

We said that the Manifestations have three planes. First, the physical reality, which depends upon the body; second, the individual reality, that is to say, the rational soul; third, the divine appearance, which is the divine perfections, the cause of the life of existence, of the education of souls, of the guidance of people, and of the enlightenment of the contingent world.

The physical state is the human state which perishes because it is composed of elements, and all that is composed of elements will necessarily be decomposed and dispersed.

But the individual reality of the Manifestations of God is a holy reality, and for that reason it is sanctified and, in that which concerns its nature and quality, is distinguished from all other things. It is like the sun, which by its essential nature produces light and cannot be compared to the moon, just as the particles that compose the globe of the sun cannot be compared with those which compose the moon. The particles and organization of the former produce rays, but the particles of which the moon is composed do not produce rays but need to borrow light. So other human realities are those souls who, like the moon, take light from the sun; but that Holy Reality is luminous in Himself.

The third plane of that Being [1] is the Divine Bounty, the splendor of the Preexistent Beauty, and the radiance of the light of the Almighty. The individual realities of the Divine Manifestations have no separation from the Bounty of God and the Lordly Splendor. In the same way, the orb of the sun has no separation from the light. Therefore, it may be said that the ascension of the Holy Manifestation is simply the leaving of this elemental form. For example, if a lamp illumines this niche, and if its light ceases to illuminate it because the niche is destroyed, the bounty of the lamp is not cut off. Briefly, in the Holy Manifestations the Preexistent Bounty is like the light, the individuality is represented by the glass globe, and the human body is like the niche: if the niche is destroyed, the lamp continues to burn. The Divine Manifestations are so many different mirrors because They have a special individuality, but that which is reflected in the mirrors is one sun. It is clear that the reality of Christ is different from that of Moses.

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 154

 

[drac16]

drac wrote:

*Are you meaning to tell me that that was Baha’u’llah literally huddled up inside a bush, speaking to Moses [peace be upon him]? oopsie!

My comment … No I don’t think we’re talking here about Baha’u’llah as "literally huddled up inside a bush"as the following references should show:

**He (Moses) hearkened unto the Word which the Burning Bush had uttered, ***and accepted it; and yet most men are bereft of the power of comprehending this, inasmuch as they have busied themselves with their own concerns, and are unaware of the things which belong unto God.

~ Baha’u’llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 41

and

Oh, how I long to announce unto every spot on the surface of the earth, and to carry to each one of its cities, the glad-tidings of this Revelation – a Revelation to which the heart of Sinai hath been attracted, and in whose name the Burning Bush is calling: 'Unto God, the Lord of Lords, belong the kingdoms of earth and heaven.'

~ Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 16

There are three levels or planes that we believe are present in a Manifestation:*

We said that the Manifestations have three planes. First, the physical reality, which depends upon the body; second, the individual reality, that is to say, the rational soul; third, the divine appearance, which is the divine perfections, the cause of the life of existence, of the education of souls, of the guidance of people, and of the enlightenment of the contingent world.

The physical state is the human state which perishes because it is composed of elements, and all that is composed of elements will necessarily be decomposed and dispersed.

But the individual reality of the Manifestations of God is a holy reality, and for that reason it is sanctified and, in that which concerns its nature and quality, is distinguished from all other things. It is like the sun, which by its essential nature produces light and cannot be compared to the moon, just as the particles that compose the globe of the sun cannot be compared with those which compose the moon. The particles and organization of the former produce rays, but the particles of which the moon is composed do not produce rays but need to borrow light. So other human realities are those souls who, like the moon, take light from the sun; but that Holy Reality is luminous in Himself.

The third plane of that Being [1] is the Divine Bounty, the splendor of the Preexistent Beauty, and the radiance of the light of the Almighty.* The individual realities of the Divine Manifestations have no separation from the Bounty of God and the Lordly Splendor. In the same way, the orb of the sun has no separation from the light. Therefore, it may be said that the ascension of the Holy Manifestation is simply the leaving of this elemental form. For example, if a lamp illumines this niche, and if its light ceases to illuminate it because the niche is destroyed, the bounty of the lamp is not cut off. Briefly, in the Holy Manifestations the Preexistent Bounty is like the light, the individuality is represented by the glass globe, and the human body is like the niche: if the niche is destroyed, the lamp continues to burn. The Divine Manifestations are so many different mirrors because They have a special individuality, but that which is reflected in the mirrors is one sun. It is clear that the reality of Christ is different from that of Moses.

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 154

Ok… so are you agreeing with me or no?

 

[charlesby]

I definitely agree that Islam and Christianity are not compatible with each other. We believe in two different Jesuses. The one that I believe in is not the same Jesus that christians believe in. I disagree with practically everything else you said…but hey, we’ve at least agreed on one point!

You don’t believe in any Jesus because there is only one Jesus, the Jesus of the gospels, whom you don’t believe in.

One reason why Ba’al worship had to be destroyed in Israel prior to the coming of Christ, is because Ba’alists cannot accept the idea of or need for a son of God. Ba’al is a fierce, warrior type of god, like Allah, fighting other gods for supremacy, like Allah fights against the God(s) of other religions. Baal is connected primarily to the events of this world, the annual renewal of the earth, whereas Allah is connected to political conquest and domination. Worship of Ba’al involved the performance of rituals, much like Islam today.

The idea of separation because of sin, and the need for forgiveness of sin, is quite foreign to Ba’alists. In worthless abasement rituals and false humility is Ba’al placated, much like Allah. Only when Muslims accept the idea that sin causes separation and hostility to God that cannot be atoned for by mere human ritual, repetitively performed, or by conquering others, will the need for a redeemer be felt,
.
Psalm 40:6 “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire— but my ears you have opened— burnt offerings and sin offeringsfn you did not require.”

 

[Matthew_Light]

This teaches that God lacks humility to save mankind, for the sonship of Christ began with his willingness to surrender his form of divinity to became a man.

No, it’s teaching that God (the essence of all reality) doesn’t become a limited creature. It’s not about humility, it’s about the nature of Christ (perfect Manifestation of God within the created world).

Equally it makes Jesus out to be a liar, because he said he was the son of God, on oath.

Jesus never said He was physically sired by God.

There is no need for Christians and Muslims to argue about this.

What is meant by the “Son of God” is not a man who contains God, but a man who is one with God. There is a big difference, I think. Jesus said that he “came from God” not that he was God, although he retained the soul-identity of God so that he could say that “Before Abraham was born I am.”

God spoke through Jesus. Indeed, the Qur’an affirms this, calling Christ “The Word”.

So termed “Orthodox Catholicism” which actually relates more to human philosophy has frequently been attacked as being anything but biblical. E.g it confounds the Son of God, which refers to the human Jesus, with God in a really confusing way in an extra biblical doctrine termed the hypostatic union, so that the two concepts became merged and the “son of God” became God the Son and just another term for God. But this is not how the bible puts it. The bible teaches that Jesus was a man in every way like any other human except for his origin and therefore his soul-identity.

Sounds like you are a Unitarian instead of a Trinitarian.

But there was only ever one true son of God in every sense - Jesus.

Jesus also said John 3:13 “No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.”

Yes, He also said "the Son of Man who is in heaven.

That should give Christians pause about the meaning of heaven. Along with His saying “let the dead bury their dead”.

This is ruled erroneous by Muhammad.

Cite?

Jesus is a man in the form of man. He is not in the form of God. His soul identity is the Word of God. He is pre-existant. He can acknowledge his Father in heaven as God because he himself is not in the form of God.

I’ll agree that if you said that Jesus was himself “God” then his speech would create problems. But this is why he concedes only that he is the son of God or son of Man.

You’re actually stating things where you agree with the Baha’i view of Christ (and disagree with trinitarian Christians). There are actually Muslims who also agree with this view of Christ as well.

 

[Matthew_Light]

Ba’al is a fierce, warrior type of god, like Allah, fighting other gods for supremacy, like Allah fights against the God(s) of other religions.

Allah is the Arabic word God, and Christians who speak Arabic pray to God - Allah.

The word Allah is the cognate of El - the name of God in Hebrew.

 

[Matthew_Light]

Are you meaning to tell me that that was Baha’u’llah literally huddled up inside a bush, speaking to Moses [peace be upon him]?

Baha’u’llah is not the name of a limited human being.

Mirza Husayn Ali Nuri was a human being. Baha’u’llah, the Glory of God, manifested Himself through the human being Husayn Ali, but the Glory of God was never born and can never die.

God, exalted be His glory, does not incarnate, does not sire children, is not born and does not die, does not even write books or speak directly (even to prophets).

Instead, God manifests His Voice within the world of contingency. His Voice is the voice of the Prophets, the Voice within the burning bush, the Voice of the Word of God, Jesus, the Voice of Muhammad, the Voice and Pen of the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

This can be seen with the eye of reason: God is outside space and time, never changing, beyond any direct tie with His creation.

Therefore, the Voice of God is distinct from God Himself.

 

[Matthew_Light]

Actually it is. Muhammad was known to be illiterate, and the name of the Jew is well attested, being Muhammad’s friend.

Tell me the name of the Jewish friend who secretly produced the Qur’an. BTW Muhammad didn’t write the Qur’an, it was recited by him (the name Qur’an means “recitation”).

I don’t think humanity’s spiritual immaturity has changed for the better - check the divorce rate & most of it being done by women.

Yes, we have not moved forward in all areas. But here are examples of moral progress:

End of acceptability of slavery
End of acceptability of ethnic cleansing
End of acceptability of targeting civilians in warfare
End of acceptability of racism
End of acceptability of sexism
End of acceptability of allowing people to starve to death in the streets
End of acceptability of debtor’s prisons
End of acceptability of torture
End of acceptability of religious coercion
Political equality
Equality before the law
Equal protection of different religious beliefs

I could go on…

Equality as it pertains to this world is an atheist concept and foreign to the bible.
The only equality is equality of promise and hope of resurrection.

We are all God’s children, created by Him, loved by Him.

We are not equal in our response to His gift. We are not equal in our talents and abilities and our moral inclinations. But we all have the opportunity to choose God, or choose self-centeredness.

Political communism is not taught in the bible - even if you think it is attractive. In fact, political communism represents “thinking as a child” as its unattainable.

Communism is a great evil - really one of the antichrists of the modern age.

Yet you don’t even understand the basics of what Christ taught, such as that there will be no more manifestations of divinity until judgement, so how can you talk about maturity?

We are living in the Day of Judgment. We are all judged - do we love God’s truth and beauty? Or do we turn away from God’s will for this day which is the unity of the entire human race, try to thwart it, seek to go back to prejudice and hatred and tribalism?

And idolatrous, because it involves casting a mere man, a warlord at that, Muhammad, as the only source of religion on earth.

Were Moses and Joshua warlords?

How do you know what is good? How can you know God? How can a sinful soul converse with the divine? How does one expiate one’s sins to see clearly?

The definition of good is God’s will for the Day in which we live.

God’s will for today is for world peace, the recognition that science is an aspect of truth, the equality of men and women, a just political and economic order, religious freedom, universal educational opportunity for all children, the end of religious hatred and violence, that human beings will view one another as children of One God and the entire planet as one homeland. God also wishes for us to have strong marriages and families which are necessary for the successful raising of the next generation.

Why should the Mighty one answer your prayer if you do not believe in the name of his one and only son Jesus?

I do believe in Jesus, and I do pray in His name.

I also recognize the return of the “I AM” in this day.