Baha'i V

[eddie_too]

one thing is for sure, the bahai who post here are profoundly ignorant of christian teachings.

the idea, as the bahai proclaim, that what a person believes is irrelevant to how they behave is totally wrong.

therefore, for bahaullah to teach that it does not matter what a person believes is foolishly wrong.

 

[eddie_too]

for example, the bahai deny that we are saved from our sins through the death of Jesus Christ on the cross.

in denying this truth, the bahai and those who follow them are denied the salvation that God offers all men through the suffering and death of Jesus.

there is no greater tragedy than not being saved.

therefore, it does matter what a person believes.

 

[Servant19]

one thing is for sure, the bahai who post here are profoundly ignorant of christian teachings.

the idea, as the bahai proclaim, that what a person believes is irrelevant to how they behave is totally wrong.

therefore, for bahaullah to teach that it does not matter what a person believes is foolishly wrong.

Eddie, what do you understand from this passage in Baha’u’llah’s Most Holy Book?

***IN THE NAME OF HIM WHO IS THE SUPREME RULER OVER ALL THAT HATH BEEN AND ALL THAT IS TO BE

The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.***

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KA/ka-4.html

 

[eddie_too]

the most humorous thing about the bahai teachings is the assertion that if we all just agreed with the bahai there would be no dissension.

i find that humorous because out of the other side of their mouths the bahai say believe whatever you want. what you believe is not that important.

believe what the bahai teach.

keep believing what you were taught.

two statements coming from the same mouths.

and the bahai think there faith is based on reason?

 

[Red_Sox_1]

The Bahai Faith may be understood as a Meta-religion, or a religion above religions, a religion that encompasses all religions and beliefs.

 

[Servant19]

eddie and Ignatian,

What is it that you do not understand?

For a human being, it is impossible to conceive of the Father. Who is He? What does He look like? What are His attributes?

Baha’is say that the Father SENT Jesus 2000 years ago, so that we may have a conception of the Father, something tangible that we can cling to, that we can worship that can deliver us to the Father.

So, if we worship Jesus, we can get as close as humanly possible to the Father. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY. “No one gets to the Father, except THROUGH me”…THROUGH me

…but it doesn’t mean He actually IS the Father…

What is so hard to understand?

 

[Servant19]

Hi all, I was invited here and haven’t been following latest discussion.

But seeing this last post about monotheism… I probably need to clarify as a Baha’i.

The Baha’i claim is it completed and fulfilled all religions and as such the monotheistic God of Abraham and Moses and Jesus and Muhammad has finally appeared on earth through the person of Baha’u’llah. As such, Baha’is believe in a God beyond the gods of the religions because Bahaullah fulfills the appeance of the god of religions on Earth as Heaven. In other words Heaven is found on Earth today through the revelation of Bahaullah in the fullest meaning of the term. So the God that Baha’is believe in is above and beyond the God of all religions. This is how the Bahai Faith unites all religions.

Hi Sox, I think you repeated your first post
Was there a reason for this?

 

[SteveVH]

Yes, as Baha’is we are fine with that. We are not Islamic in our thinking, where Allah and ONLY Allah is to be worshipped, we worship God THROUGH the Manifestation.

Food is calling

And there is your error; the entire notion of “Manifestations” of God. You basically believe in the reincarnation of God, over and over again. When we worship Jesus, we are not worshiping a “manifestation”, we are worshiping the one, true God who became true man while never loosing his divinity. Jesus is God. Baha’u’llah is not, nor is Muhammad or Abraham or Moses.

 

[Red_Sox_1]

John 10:30 " I and the Father are one."

It doesn’t say “I am the Father”. So it means that “I” and “Father” are two different persons.

The Bahai understanding is Bahaullah is the person of the Father not the person of the Son. Jesus is person of the Son.

 

[Servant19]

And there is your error; the entire notion of “Manifestations” of God. You basically believe in the reincarnation of God, over and over again. When we worship Jesus, we are not worshiping a “manifestation”, we are worshiping the one, true God who became true man while never loosing his divinity. Jesus is God. Baha’u’llah is not, nor is Muhammad or Abraham or Moses.

Actually Steve, I would suggest you read the thread from your last post on. We are talking about epistemology as opposed to ontology.

While Baha’is say that we can worship these Manifestations as God, it is with the caveat that it is an epistemological reality rather than an ontological reality.

As a Bahai there is no other concept of God that I could possibly fathom outside of the Person of Baha’u’llah

 

[eddie_too]

from what i have read, stevevh understands perfectly what that the bahai understanding of worshipping bahaullah as God is epistemological.

steve also understands that the christian understanding of worshipping Jesus is ontological.

the question is whether or not the bahai understand the christian belief.

if they do, they should stop trying to tell christians that there their faith is an epistemological expression of Jesus’ divinity. it is not.

it is a fundamental and vital distinction. because a man who is only God in an epistemological sense cannot atone for our sins. only a man who is God in an ontological sense can atone for our sins.

 

[SteveVH]

I believe all of this within the Primal Will, the Logos aspect of Christ. That aspect is SEPARATE from his human identity. It is separate from the human identity of Bahaullah too, but it is an aspect He shares with Christ

This completely contradicts the Christian view. Jesus is forever Jesus, the God-man. One cannot separate ones nature from one’s being. Jesus has two natures will forever be human and divine. It is called the hypostatic union. To separate his divinity from his humanity was condemned as heresy long ago. Jesus is not a human person possessed by God.

 

[Red_Sox_1]

Actually Steve, I would suggest you read the thread from your last post on. We are talking about epistemology as opposed to ontology.

While Baha’is say that we can worship these Manifestations as God, it is with the caveat that it is an epistemological reality rather than an ontological reality.

As a Bahai there is no other concept of God that I could possibly fathom outside of the Person of Baha’u’llah

So as Not to be misleading, it should be pointed out that Baha’u’llah’s writings claim Baha’u’llah to be the Fullest manifestation of God.

Yes all Manifestations are epistemologically regarded as God, even Moses and Muhammad. But in relation to religions including Christianity, the Bab has stated, as is quoted in the Kitab-I-Aqdas, that Baha’u’llah is God under all conditions. — sounds like ontological claim of Bahaullah to me.

Bear in mind that Baha’is consider John the Baptist, Moses, and Muhammad as epistemological God even though Jews and Chrisians and Muslims don’t believe this about Moses, John the Baptist, and Muhammad.

 

[Red_Sox_1]

Steve when you say Jesus is ontological God do you mean Jesus as Son or Jesus as Father, or Jesus as Trinity?

 

[Servant19]

This completely contradicts the Christian view. Jesus is forever Jesus, the God-man. One cannot separate ones nature from one’s being. Jesus has two natures will forever be human and divine. It is called the hypostatic union. To separate his divinity from his humanity was condemned as heresy long ago. Jesus is not a human person possessed by God.

Jesus can separate His nature from His being. When two or three gather in His name, He is there ONLY IN SPIRIT, His body is nowhere to be seen in that room

 

[Red_Sox_1]

from what i have read, stevevh understands perfectly what that the bahai understanding of worshipping bahaullah as God is epistemological.

steve also understands that the christian understanding of worshipping Jesus is ontological.

the question is whether or not the bahai understand the christian belief.

if they do, they should stop trying to tell christians that there their faith is an epistemological expression of Jesus’ divinity. it is not.

it is a fundamental and vital distinction. because a man who is only God in an epistemological sense cannot atone for our sins. only a man who is God in an ontological sense can atone for our sins.

In my view Baha’u’llah’s claim to Godhead is ontological. Do you claim Jesus as Son, Jesus as Father, or Jesus as Ghost, or Jesus as Trinity to be Ontological God?

 

[Servant19]

So as Not to be misleading, it should be pointed out that Baha’u’llah’s writings claim Baha’u’llah to be the Fullest manifestation of God.

Yes all Manifestations are epistemologically regarded as God, even Moses and Muhammad. But in relation to religions including Christianity, the Bab has stated, as is quoted in the Kitab-I-Aqdas, that Baha’u’llah is God under all conditions. — sounds like ontological claim of Bahaullah to me.

Bear in mind that Baha’is consider John the Baptist, Moses, and Muhammad as epistemological God even though Jews and Chrisians and Muslims don’t believe this about Moses, John the Baptist, and Muhammad.

Hi Sox,

Which paragraph in the Aqdas are you referring to here please?

 

[eddie_too]

our claims are clearly written down in the “Catechism of the Catholic Church” it is available in full online.

Jesus is the ONLY Son of God. Jesus is the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity.

Jesus is not the Father nor is Jesus the Spirit.

Jesus is one Person with two natures, a human nature and a divine nature.

this is what Jesus taught the apostles and this is what the apostles taught us.

i have no idea, relative to the concepts i posted above in this post, how this christian understanding relates to bahaullah and the bahai understanding.

i assure you, however, my post is reliable as to the christian understanding of Jesus.

the christian understanding of bahaullah is that he has only one nature, a human nature.

 

[SteveVH]

Actually Steve, I would suggest you read the thread from your last post on. We are talking about epistemology as opposed to ontology.

While Baha’is say that we can worship these Manifestations as God, it is with the caveat that it is an epistemological reality rather than an ontological reality.

Thanks, Servant. I have read the thread since I have been absent and I grasp the difference between ontology and epistemology. It changes nothing I have said.

As a Bahai there is no other concept of God that I could possibly fathom outside of the Person of Baha’u’llah

Really? Not even Jesus Christ? What would happen if someone else should come along and claim that he is now the “New Manifestation”. Would you be able to fathom him as your concept of God? There is one very important reason why Baha’u’llah is a poor concept of God. He is dead in the ground. Jesus has defeated death. Baha’u’llah has not.

 

[Servant19]

Thanks, Servant. I have read the thread since I have been absent and I grasp the difference between ontology and epistemology. It changes nothing I have said.

Really? Not even Jesus Christ? What would happen if someone else should come along and claim that he is now the “New Manifestation”. Would you be able to fathom him as your concept of God? There is one very important reason why Baha’u’llah is a poor concept of God. He is dead in the ground. Jesus has defeated death. Baha’u’llah has not.

Yes He is physically dead Steve. However you are narrow in your vision of true reality.

Physical reality is not true reality.

God resides as a Spirit, and this is where true reality is. Bahaullah is The Lord of true reality. His body means nothing to Him. We just thank Him that He graced us with a physical frame