Baha'i V

[Nick44]

I have a question. Would the Baha’is here please give us your understanding of the following?

1. Sin
2. Redemption
3. Salvation

Thank you.

Thanks for the questions, Steve. Here is a brief explanation of Baha’i belief (from the US Baha’i website) on those points:

1. Salvation: Baha’is believe that passages such as John 3:16 and John 14:6 indeed affirm that salvation is attained through acceptance of Christ. But each of the world’s major religious traditions offer passages similar to those found in the Book of John; passages which have been used to claim the uniqueness and finality of the various faiths, but in reality affirm that “the way” is to follow the Word of God and to surrender to the Will that emanates from that Word. For Baha’is, the references to the “Son” and to “I” in John is a reference to the eternal Logos. Hence, this is a basis for recogizing that all of the great religious Teachers spoke as the voice of God.

Christ also says that “before Abraham was, I am” (John 8:58). Thus, the reality of Christ existed before the man Jesus of Nazareth. Christ was the “I AM” (Exodus 3:14) of the Burning Bush, the Incarnation of the Word of God. Therefore, “the way” is the path to God that opens before us by turning to His Word. The Baha’i teachings clearly affirm that the path of salvation lies in turning to the Word of God. The Baha’i sacred texts emphatically proclaim “the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ.”

1. The sacrifice of Jesus: Baha’u’llah declared that the sacrifice of Jesus was indeed extraordinary, for it was through that sacrifice that Jesus “purified the world.” Baha’u’llah says that those who failed to accept Christ deprived themselves of “beholding the face of God.” The Baha’i writings affirm that Christ “left nothing unfinished or incomplete.” But of course Jesus knew that humankind’s response to His mission and sacrifice would not be adequate and so He prophesied that He would return: “I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.” (John 16:12).

 

[Nick44]

I have a question. Would the Baha’is here please give us your understanding of the following?

1. Sin
2. Redemption
3. Salvation

Thank you.

Some Baha’i thought on ‘sin’:

The Bahá’í Faith does not therefore accept the concept of “original sin” or any related doctrine which considers that people are basically evil or have intrinsically evil elements in their nature. All the forces and faculties within us are God-given and thus potentially beneficial to our spiritual development. In the same way, the Bahá’í teachings deny the existence of Satan, a devil, or an “evil force.” Evil, it is explained, is the absence of good; darkness is the absence of light; cold is the absence of heat.5 Just as the sun is the unique source of all life in a solar system, so ultimately is there only one force or power in the universe, the force we call God.

However, if a person, through his own God-given free will, turns away from this force or fails to make the necessary effort to develop his spiritual capacities, the result is imperfection. Both within the individual and in society, there will be what one might term “dark spots.” These dark spots are imperfections, and `Abdu’l-Bahá has said that “evil is imperfection.”

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Why won’t the bahai say publically that they think Christians are wrong to worship Jesus Christ as God?

I would also ask that if you refuse to worship what we worship as God, does that not show we have a different God?

 

[Robyn_p]

Robyn p - Welcome to the discussion and thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut. Servant19 has posted some questions as replies which are applicable to your questions.

There is a book called Thief in the night written by a Baha’i called William Sears. This is the book I read that made my jaw drop in awe. I thought how could this have happened without us all knowing.

youtu.be/lfqcVnTTaWw

amazon.com/Thief-Night-Case-Missing-Millennium/dp/085398008X

It is worth a read and it explains what it is to be a Baha’i at the same time

Regards Tony

Thanks Tony for the welcome. I’ll look into that book thanks.

Robyn p - It may not have been that easy, there is a lot of meaning in these verses that is not so straight forward, consider this next verse

“But watch yourselves lest your hearts be weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and cares of this life, and that day come upon you suddenly like a trap. For it will come upon all who dwell on the face of the whole earth. But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.” Luke 21:34-36 ESV

If ones was to take this as it states, then you must never go to sleep! Thus the Stay awake at all times must be a spiritual meaning, that is be spiritually awake and ready!

The problem is Tony, that verse doesn’t say anything about a hidden secret coming that could be missed.

The day coming upon us suddenly like a trap is exactly that. An sudden, unexpected arrival. A trap isn’t missed, a trap is something you are clearly aware of once it’s upon you.

We do have to stay awake, we have to be prepared, because as it says in that passage you quoted, we are going to stand before Jesus and be judged by Him. If we’re acting like He’s going to never come back, or we have all the time in the world to repent and start living rightly, then He’s going to come at an hour we don’t expect, and we’ll be caught off guard and punished accordingly. See Luke 12:35-47 for more.

tonyfish58:

It is also the same as the scripture you posted

Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. Matthew 24:42-44

So if we are to take them spiritually then there is no reason why it can not mean that most will not see the Thief and He will have come and gone before they know they have Missed Him, it is very rare a Thief in the Night is Caught in action!

Here’s the thing. If Jesus had said something like, “For as a thief comes in the night, and no one expects or sees him as he does his work, so will the coming of the Son of man be.” You might have a point. The problem is, He doesn’t do that. The analogy he makes is clearly one of preparedness. Again, if He had ended this parable with the saying, “Therefore, you must also be ready, for the Son of man is coming like a thief who may not be seen.” You would have something. But He doesn’t. He makes clear the point of the analogy. “The Son of man is coming when you do not expect.” No one expects a robber. If they did, they would be prepared and wouldn’t get robbed. That’s the point.

Interestingly, He DOES compare himself to lightning “that comes in the east and shines in the west.” And that comparison is in the context of warning his disciples of people who claim Jesus has returned in a hidden or secret way. He says don’t listen to them, because when the Son of man comes it will be as obvious as lightning. You can’t miss lightning.

tonyfish58:

This next passage is immense!

For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. Matthew 16:27

It could be that this passage refers to Baha’u’llah who is known as The Father, the angles were the tens of thousand of Souls that gave their life for this cause in its beginning.

:ehh: Or it could be exactly what He said it was. I need to see more convincing evidence to think otherwise. At this point your position is just eisegesis.

Also, how do the Baha’i reconcile the descriptions of Jesus’ coming that are given by St. Paul who says,

“For the Lord Himself will descend from Heaven with a cry of command, with the archangels call and with the sound of the trumpets of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we always be with the Lord.” (1 Thes 4:16-17)

If Baha’ullah was Christ returned, why didn’t any of this happen? Why weren’t all the dead raised? Why didn’t we see Christ descend from heaven like He himself described?

With all the descriptions that the New Testament gives of the Second Coming, I just find it hard to reconcile them with the Baha’i’s claim, especially considering Jesus’ own warnings.

Thanks for taking the time to respond to me though! I appreciate it.

 

[Robyn_p]

Are we really going to get on this merry-go-round again? This issue has been discussed on the previous Baha’i threads until we were all blue in the face. Why don’t we move on?

Sorry Steve, I didn’t realize that this has already been discussed. Since Servant started the thread off talking about it, I assumed it hadn’t been discussed yet. I took the bait I guess.

 

[rinnie]

Jesus took great pains to urge His followers to see/hear (to understand) with spiritual eyes/ears (he that has eyes to see, let him see, he that hath ears, let him hear) or they would miss the true meaning of His words. Baha’u’llah explains how an outward and literal fulfillment expected by the people will never happen in a sudden, miraculous way because that would force belief. He writes:

"As the adherents of Jesus have never understood the hidden meaning of these words, and as the signs which they and the leaders of their Faith have expected have failed to appear, they therefore refused to acknowledge, even until now, the truth of those Manifestations of Holiness that have since the days of Jesus been made manifest. They have thus deprived themselves of the outpourings of God’s holy grace, and of the wonders of His divine utterance. Such is their low estate in this, the Day of Resurrection! They have even failed to perceive that were the signs of the Manifestation of God in every age to appear in the visible realm in accordance with the text of established traditions, none could possibly deny or turn away, nor would the blessed be distinguished from the miserable, and the transgressor from the God-fearing. Judge fairly: Were the prophecies recorded in the Gospel to be literally fulfilled; were Jesus, Son of Mary, accompanied by angels, to descend from the visible heaven upon the clouds; who would dare to disbelieve, who would dare to reject the truth, and wax disdainful? Nay, such consternation would immediately seize all the dwellers of the earth that no soul would feel able to utter a word, much less to reject or accept the truth. "
(Baha’u’llah, Book of Certitude, p. 8

How can that be when on the day of Pentecost was the day of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit!

 

[SteveVH]

Thanks for the questions, Steve. Here is a brief explanation of Baha’i belief (from the US Baha’i website) on those points:

1. Salvation: Baha’is believe that passages such as John 3:16 and John 14:6 indeed affirm that salvation is attained through acceptance of Christ. But each of the world’s major religious traditions offer passages similar to those found in the Book of John; passages which have been used to claim the uniqueness and finality of the various faiths, but in reality affirm that “the way” is to follow the Word of God and to surrender to the Will that emanates from that Word. For Baha’is, the references to the “Son” and to “I” in John is a reference to the eternal Logos. Hence, this is a basis for recogizing that all of the great religious Teachers spoke as the voice of God.

Christ also says that “before Abraham was, I am” (John 8:58). Thus, the reality of Christ existed before the man Jesus of Nazareth. Christ was the “I AM” (Exodus 3:14) of the Burning Bush, the Incarnation of the Word of God. Therefore, “the way” is the path to God that opens before us by turning to His Word. The Baha’i teachings clearly affirm that the path of salvation lies in turning to the Word of God. The Baha’i sacred texts emphatically proclaim “the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ.”

1. The sacrifice of Jesus: Baha’u’llah declared that the sacrifice of Jesus was indeed extraordinary, for it was through that sacrifice that Jesus “purified the world.” Baha’u’llah says that those who failed to accept Christ deprived themselves of “beholding the face of God.” The Baha’i writings affirm that Christ “left nothing unfinished or incomplete.” But of course Jesus knew that humankind’s response to His mission and sacrifice would not be adequate and so He prophesied that He would return: “I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.” (John 16:12).

Very simply, do you believe that you need to be saved? If so, from what do you need to be saved? And if you don’t mind, just in your own words. Knowing what you know as a Baha’i, how would you answer this question?

 

[SteveVH]

Sorry Steve, I didn’t realize that this has already been discussed. Since Servant started the thread off talking about it, I assumed it hadn’t been discussed yet. I took the bait I guess.

Not a problem. We had lengthy discussion on that very topic and what I saw were the same answers. It is not the only topic we have revisited over and over again. No offense was intended.

 

[Nick44]

Thanks Tony for the welcome. I’ll look into that book thanks.

Here’s the thing. If Jesus had said something like, “For as a thief comes in the night, and no one expects or sees him as he does his work, so will the coming of the Son of man be.” You might have a point. The problem is, He doesn’t do that. The analogy he makes is clearly one of preparedness. Again, if He had ended this parable with the saying, “Therefore, you must also be ready, for the Son of man is coming like a thief who may not be seen.” You would have something. But He doesn’t. He makes clear the point of the analogy. “The Son of man is coming when you do not expect.” No one expects a robber. If they did, they would be prepared and wouldn’t get robbed. That’s the point.

How do the Baha’i reconcile the descriptions of Jesus’ coming that are given by St. Paul who says,

“For the Lord Himself will descend from Heaven with a cry of command, with the archangels call and with the sound of the trumpets of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we always be with the Lord.” (1 Thes 4:16-17)

If Baha’ullah was Christ returned, why didn’t any of this happen? Why weren’t all the dead raised? Why didn’t we see Christ descend from heaven like He himself described?

With all the descriptions that the New Testament gives of the Second Coming, I just find it hard to reconcile them with the Baha’i’s claim, especially considering Jesus’ own warnings.

Thanks for taking the time to respond to me though! I appreciate it.

From “Baha’u’llah and the New Era” ch 13

The Day of Judgment is also the Day of Resurrection, of the raising of the dead. St. Paul in his First Epistle to the Corinthians says: –

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. – I Cor. xv, 51-53.

As to the meaning of these passages about the raising of the dead, Bahá’u’lláh writes in the Book of Íqán: –

… By the terms “life” and “death,” spoken of in the scriptures, is intended the life of faith and the death of unbelief. The generality of the people, owing to their failure to grasp the meaning of these words, rejected and despised the person of the Manifestation, deprived themselves of the light of His divine guidance, and refused to follow the example of that immortal Beauty. …

… Even as Jesus said: “Ye must be born again” [John iii, 7]. Again He saith: “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit” [John iii, 5-6]. The purpose of these words is that whosoever in every dispensation is born of the Spirit and is quickened by the breath of the Manifestation of Holiness, he verily is of those that have attained unto “life” and “resurrection” and have entered into the “paradise” of the love of God. And whosoever is not of them, is condemned to “death” and “deprivation,” to the “fire” of unbelief, and to the “wrath” of God. …

In every age and century, the purpose of the Prophets of God and their chosen ones hath been no other but to affirm the spiritual significance of the terms “life,” “resurrection,” and “judgment.” … Wert thou to attain to but a dewdrop of the crystal waters of divine knowledge, thou wouldst readily realize that true life is not the life of the flesh but the life of the spirit. For the life of the flesh is common to both men and animals, whereas the life of the spirit is possessed only by the pure in heart who have quaffed from the ocean of faith and partaken of the fruit of certitude. This life knoweth no death, and this existence is crowned by immortality. Even as it hath been said: “He who is a true believer liveth both in this world and in the world to come.” If by “life” be meant this earthly life, it is evident that death must needs overtake it. – Kitáb-i-Iqán, pp. 114, 118, 120-21.

According to the Bahá’í teaching the Resurrection has nothing to do with the gross physical body. That body, once dead, is done with. It becomes decomposed and its atoms will never be recomposed into the same body. Resurrection is the birth of the individual to spiritual life, through the gift of the Holy Spirit bestowed through the Manifestation of God. The grave from which he arises is the grave of ignorance and negligence of God. The sleep from which he awakens is the dormant spiritual condition in which many await the dawn of the Day of God. This dawn illumines all who have lived on the face of the earth, whether they are in the body or out of the body, but those who are spiritually blind cannot perceive it. The Day of Resurrection is not a day of twenty-four hours, but an era which has now begun and will last as long as the present world cycle continues. It will continue when all traces of the present civilization will have been wiped off the surface of the globe.

 

[SteveVH]

Some Baha’i thought on ‘sin’:

The Bahá’í Faith does not therefore accept the concept of “original sin” or any related doctrine which considers that people are basically evil or have intrinsically evil elements in their nature. All the forces and faculties within us are God-given and thus potentially beneficial to our spiritual development. In the same way, the Bahá’í teachings deny the existence of Satan, a devil, or an “evil force.” Evil, it is explained, is the absence of good; darkness is the absence of light; cold is the absence of heat.5 Just as the sun is the unique source of all life in a solar system, so ultimately is there only one force or power in the universe, the force we call God.

However, if a person, through his own God-given free will, turns away from this force or fails to make the necessary effort to develop his spiritual capacities, the result is imperfection. Both within the individual and in society, there will be what one might term “dark spots.” These dark spots are imperfections, and `Abdu’l-Bahá has said that “evil is imperfection.”

So no original sin, no Satan, no evil force. Can I extrapolate then that you also deny the existence of hell?

By the way, the Christian faith does not consider that people are basically evil. When God created us he said “It is good”, and even “very good”. Original sin is a lacking of sanctifying grace which is necessary in order to attain heaven. We receive that grace through Christian Baptism and keep it alive through the other sacraments.

My question would be that if you basically deny sin and evil, what is it that you believe you are saved from through Christ?

 

[Nick44]

So no original sin, no Satan, no evil force. Can I extrapolate then that you also deny the existence of hell?

By the way, the Christian faith does not consider that people are basically evil. When God created us he said “It is good”, and even “very good”. Original sin is a lacking of sanctifying grace which is necessary in order to attain heaven. We receive that grace through Christian Baptism and keep it alive through the other sacraments.

My question would be that if you basically deny sin and evil, what is it that you believe you are saved from through Christ?

Saved from the animal nature present in all of us and birth into the higher spiritual nature. Baha’is do believe in ‘hell’, not as a fiery pit but as a spiritual condition of being apart from God (and putting ourselves there by our own actions.) My opinion is that this ‘hell’ would be far worse than being burned and the grief and remorse of such a soul unbearable.

Here is more on Baha’i beliefs of life after death:
As in the world’s other religions, the Bahá’í concept of life after death is deeply integrated into teachings about the nature of the soul and the purpose of this earthly life.

Bahá’u’lláh confirmed the existence of a separate, rational soul for every human. In this life, He said, the soul is related to the physical body. It provides the underlying animation for the body and is our real self.

Although undetectable by physical instruments, the soul shows itself through the qualities of character that we associate with each person. The soul is the focal point for love and compassion, for faith and courage, and for other such “human” qualities that cannot be explained solely by thinking of a human being as an animal or as a sophisticated organic machine.

The soul does not die; it endures everlastingly. When the human body dies, the soul is freed from ties with the physical body and the surrounding physical world and begins its progress through the spiritual world. Bahá’ís understand the spiritual world to be a timeless and placeless extension of our own universe–and not some physically remote or removed place.

Entry into the next life has the potential to bring great joy. Bahá’u’lláh likened death to the process of birth. He explains: “The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother.”

The analogy to the womb in many ways summarizes the Bahá’í view of earthly existence. Just as the womb constitutes an important place for a person’s initial physical development, the physical world provides the matrix for the development of the individual soul. Accordingly, Bahá’ís view life as a sort of workshop, where one can develop and perfect those qualities which will be needed in the next life.

“Know thou, of a truth, that if the soul of man hath walked in the ways of God, it will, assuredly return and be gathered to the glory of the Beloved,” Bahá’u’lláh wrote. “By the righteousness of God! It shall attain a station such as no pen can depict, or tongue can describe.”

In the final analysis, heaven can be seen partly as a state of nearness to God; hell is a state of remoteness from God. Each state follows as a natural consequence of individual efforts, or the lack thereof, to develop spiritually. The key to spiritual progress is to follow the path outlined by the Manifestations of God.

Beyond this, the exact nature of the afterlife remains a mystery. “The nature of the soul after death can never be described,” Bahá’u’lláh writes.

 

[SteveVH]

Saved from the animal nature present in all of us and birth into the higher spiritual nature. Baha’is do believe in ‘hell’, not as a fiery pit but as a spiritual condition of being apart from God (and putting ourselves there by our own actions.) My opinion is that this ‘hell’ would be far worse than being burned and the grief and remorse of such a soul unbearable.

The Catholic definition is separation from God. As with purgatory, the use of “flames” is metaphorical, signifying deep and excruciating pain due to that separation.

The soul does not die; it endures everlastingly. When the human body dies, the soul is freed from ties with the physical body and the surrounding physical world and begins its progress through the spiritual world. Bahá’ís understand the spiritual world to be a timeless and placeless extension of our own universe–and not some physically remote or removed place.

What “progress” does one need to engage in in the spiritual world? If it is purification then you believe in a form of purgatory. Is there ever a time when one reaches their final destiny?

 

[Nick44]

We don’t deny ‘sin’. We all fall short in our duty to God and out fellow man.

Here is a prayer revealed by Baha’u’llah for forgiveness:

Glorified art Thou, O Lord my God! I beseech Thee by Thy Chosen Ones, and by the Bearers of Thy Trust, and by Him Whom Thou hast ordained to be the Seal of Thy Prophets and of Thy Messengers, to let Thy remembrance be my companion, and Thy love my aim, and Thy face my goal, and Thy name my lamp, and Thy wish my desire, and Thy pleasure my delight.

I am a sinner, O my Lord, and Thou art the Ever-Forgiving. As soon as I recognized Thee, I hastened to attain the exalted court of Thy loving-kindness. Forgive me, O my Lord, my sins which have hindered me from walking in the ways of Thy good pleasure, and from attaining the shores of the ocean of Thy oneness.

There is no one, O my Lord, who can deal bountifully with me to whom I can turn my face, and none who can have compassion on me that I may crave his mercy. Cast me not out, I implore Thee, of the presence of Thy grace, neither do Thou withhold from me the outpourings of Thy generosity and bounty. Ordain for me, O my Lord, what Thou hast ordained for them that love Thee, and write down for me what Thou hast written down for Thy chosen ones. My gaze hath, at all times, been fixed on the horizon of Thy gracious providence, and mine eyes bent upon the court of Thy tender mercies. Do with me as beseemeth Thee. No God is there but Thee, the God of power, the God of glory, Whose help is implored by all men.

Bahá’u’lláh

 

[SteveVH]

We don’t deny ‘sin’. We all fall short in our duty to God and out fellow man.

Wonderful. And what are the consequences of sin?

 

[Nick44]

The Catholic definition is separation from God. As with purgatory, the use of “flames” is metaphorical, signifying deep and excruciating pain due to that separation.

What “progress” does one need to engage in in the spiritual world? If it is purification then you believe in a form of purgatory. Is there ever a time when one reaches their final destiny?

My thoughts:

Not purification but eternal progress. In simple terms, what we achieve spiritually in this life will dictate our ‘starting point’ in the next life and we will eternally progress from there (by the grace and permission of God) into ever higher levels of love and understanding of God and His reality. That will never end and we’ll never reach a point where we ‘know’ everything or even ‘know’ God. Abdu’l-Baha pointed out that is this world there is existence from a mineral to a man, and in relation between the two, one is alive and one is ‘dead’. He said the range of existences in the next world is even greater than that.

 

[SteveVH]

My thoughts:

Not purification but eternal progress. In simple terms, what we achieve spiritually in this life will dictate our ‘starting point’ in the next life and we will eternally progress from there (by the grace and permission of God) into ever higher levels of love and understanding of God and His reality. That will never end and we’ll never reach a point where we ‘know’ everything or even ‘know’ God. Abdu’l-Baha pointed out that is this world there is existence from a mineral to a man, and in relation between the two, one is alive and one is ‘dead’. He said the range of existences in the next world is even greater than that.

Okay, thanks. This is where we would part company. Our Scriptures tell us that we will see God “face to face” and spend eternity living in his presence in complete joy and happiness, awe and wonder. We will reach our final destiny.

 

[Nick44]

Wonderful. And what are the consequences of sin?

An existence that could be described as ‘hell’. Baha’u’llah asked: "Where is Paradise and where is hell?..and He replied, “The one is reunion with Me and the other thine own self.”

 

[SteveVH]

An existence that could be described as ‘hell’. Baha’u’llah asked: "Where is Paradise and where is hell?..and He replied, “The one is reunion with Me and the other thine own self.”

Does this “hell” occur on earth or are there those who will suffer this “hell” for eternity in the “spirit world”?

 

[Nick44]

Does this “hell” occur on earth or are there those who will suffer this “hell” for eternity in the “spirit world”?

Both can be experienced in all the worlds of God. My understanding is that there is no ‘eternal’ hell and that all souls will be allowed to make progress in the next life.

 

[SteveVH]

Both can be experienced in all the worlds of God. My understanding is that there is no ‘eternal’ hell and that all souls will be allowed to make progress in the next life.

So, regardless of how one lives one’s life, there are no eternal consequences no matter how much I offend God? Really, I have no need for salvation. It may take me longer, but I can pursue a life of wine, women and song and eventually end up in the same place as the holiest saint walking the earth. Is that correct?