Baha'i V

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Then if you accept the N.T. then why do you deny the Priest the authority of forgiving sin. Jesus gave it to them.

And if you accept the N.T. you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour.🤷
We do, that’s why Artha says that we believe in Jesus Christ and the authority of the Priests in relation to Jesus’s own time. The Baha’i position is that the time of Jesus’s first coming “ended” (though Jesus did not ended) with the appearance of the next Manifestation, and specifically with Baha’u’llah’s appearance as the “Father”. Jesus continues to be who He is even in the Baha’i Faith. But the “Father” says new things in the Baha’i Faith that Jesus did not say during His first coming. Baha’i Faith can be seen as a “renewal” in this sense.
 
Fantastic question! Please refer back to my previous two posts.
I did. The question has not been answered. If there is no other name then there is no other name. Read the words of Scripture. They do not even hint at the Baha’i position that Jesus was only temporary, for the people of his time. And Mírzá Ḥusayn-`Alí Núrí will have much for which he must answer in claiming to be God the Father and/or the second coming of Christ, which ever one wishes to prefer, apparently. I suppose he has already answered for it and we should pray for his soul.
 
How do the words "there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" translate into “but only during this time and place”?

If there is no other name under heaven then there is no other name under heaven, regardless of the time and place. God lives in eternity, not in time and space. He has revealed himself fully in Christ Jesus (who is God, not a “manifestation”), for all people of all times and places.
Argh. I can’t help it…I have to post. 😛

Steve, the Baha’i believe that Jesus was the manifestation of God but only for a limited time which is now over. Look at what Researcher19 wrote:
According to one Baha’i view, all references to “Father” in the New Testament are references to Baha’u’llah. So according to Baha’is, Baha’u’llah is mentioned on almost every page of the New Testament.

It is simply a matter of believing Baha’u’llah’s claim, or rejecting it. “Baha’u’llah” is the title of the person named Mirza Husayn-Ali of Nur in Mazandaran, Iran. Other titles of Baha’u’llah include “Ancient Beauty”, “Pre-eternal Beauty”, “Ancient of Days”, “Blessed Beauty”, “Wronged One of the Worlds”, “Most Great Name”, “Speaker on Sinai”, “Most Great Ocean”, “Hidden Name”, “Lord of Lords”, “Most Great Spirit”
Is that not staggering?

The Father that Jesus refers to again and again…the one we see as the God of all creation…that is Baha’u’llah.

Of course, R19 (notice the 19 in his name and Servant19’s name?) gave us the answer to this question: "It is simply a matter of believing Baha’u’llah’s claim, or rejecting it’

I’ve made my choice. 👋
 
And Mírzå Ḥusayn-`Alí Núrí will have much for which he must answer in claiming to be God the Father and/or the second coming of Christ, which ever one wishes to prefer, apparently. I suppose he has already answered for it and we should pray for his soul.
I agree with you. The Jews and Romans cast this kind of accusation against Jesus Christ, which is why they wanted Jesus to be crucified and His followers were killed and persecuted.
 
Just a reminder Steve, that in Catholicism, “baptism by spirit” is considered de fide so it indicates to me that opening the “gateways” of grace can be attained by other means, and Baha’is would be the first to acknowledge that this is a spiritual act rather than a physical one
Well you are free to believe whatever you wish. The fact is that Christ himself instituted the sacraments as channels of grace through which we would interact with him. This overrides any personal opinion to the contrary.
 
I agree with you. The Jews and Romans cast this kind of accusation against Jesus Christ, which is why they wanted Jesus to be crucified and His followers were killed and persecuted.
:banghead:

Let me see if I understand.

Jesus was persecuted and killed.

Mírzå Ḥusayn-`Alí Núrí was persecuted and killed.

Therefore Mírzå Ḥusayn-`Alí Núrí has the same status as Jesus in all respects.

Do I have it right? If so you had better include any and all religious leaders who have been persecuted and give them each equal stature, including Joseph Smith and David Koresh.
 
Argh. I can’t help it…I have to post. 😛

Steve, the Baha’i believe that Jesus was the manifestation of God but only for a limited time which is now over. Look at what Researcher19 wrote:

Is that not staggering?

The Father that Jesus refers to again and again…the one we see as the God of all creation…that is Baha’u’llah.

Of course, R19 (notice the 19 in his name and Servant19’s name?) gave us the answer to this question: "It is simply a matter of believing Baha’u’llah’s claim, or rejecting it’

I’ve made my choice. 👋
Yes, I am quite aware of what they believe and yes, it is staggering. And, subject to some new angle being presented, I am not far behind you.
 
Servant19 is getting some sleep (he’s in Australia), so I decided to spend some time researching the Baha’i religion on the Internet. I think I have learned more than I really want or need to know of the Baha’i, so I’ll be bowing out of this thread now.

For those interested:

The official website is here:

bahai.org/

For a quick overview from wikipedia:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1’%C3%AD_Faith

For balance, here are a couple testimonies from ex-Baha’i:

fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Ex16.htm

bahai-faith.com/

Finally, if you want a quick, one-sentence grasp of the Baha’i, I found this:

What Unitarian/Universalists are to Christianity, the Baha’i are to Islam.

Caveat emptor. 👍
After reading the link on ex Baha’is I feel as though he has been reading the last 4000 posts in the Bahai threads on here. Lol. He hits the button on the Bahai faith in my eyes in his own words he describes the feelings I get on the mannerisms and posts of them on here. I’m being charitable as I can.

Viva las Christos Jesus
 
Maybe if you provide a chapter or verse from the NT that you feel Baha’is are rejecting rinnie, we may be able to assist you with your quest 🙂
You certaintly reject hebrews statement.

1 In old days, God spoke to our fathers in many ways and by many means,[1] through the prophets; now at last 2 in these times he has spoken to us with a Son to speak for him; a Son, whom he has appointed to inherit all things, just as it was through him that he created this world of time; 3 a Son, who is the radiance of his Father’s splendour, and the full expression of his being;[2] all creation depends, for its support, on his enabling word. Now, making atonement for our sins, he has taken his place on high, at the right hand of God’s majesty, 4 superior to the angels in that measure in which the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.[3]

For one thing you deny angels exist.
 
After reading the link on ex Baha’is I feel as though he has been reading the last 4000 posts in the Bahai threads on here. Lol. He hits the button on the Bahai faith in my eyes in his own words he describes the feelings I get on the mannerisms and posts of them on here. I’m being charitable as I can.
:sad_yes:

Kinda eerie, isn’t it?
 
Yes, I am quite aware of what they believe and yes, it is staggering. And, subject to some new angle being presented, I am not far behind you.
I thought we were simply comparing and contrasting the differences in Catholic and Baha’i beliefs, to determine what the reasons are for the truthfulness of the Catholic Faith over the Baha’i Faith.
 
How do the words "there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" translate into “but only during this time and place”?

If there is no other name under heaven then there is no other name under heaven, regardless of the time and place. God lives in eternity, not in time and space. He has revealed himself fully in Christ Jesus (who is God, not a “manifestation”), for all people of all times and places.
Jesus as a Manifestation of God is a the Mediator between God and man… hence they/we have no other way to God…except through the Mediator…Jesus being the Mediator of the time and place the passage in Acts refers to…

*EACH religion teaches that a mediator is necessary between man and the Creator – one who receives the full light of the divine splendor and radiates it over the human world, as the earth’s atmosphere receives and diffuses the warmth of the sun’s rays. This mediator between God and humanity has different designations though he always brings the same spiritual command.
*
*In one era he is called Abraham, at another time Moses, again he is called Buddha, another time Jesus, and yet another time Mohammad. All turned to the divine reality for their strength. Those who followed Moses accepted him as their mediator; those who followed Zoroaster accepted him as their mediator; but all the Israelites deny Zoroaster, and the Zoroastrians deny Moses. They fail to see in both the one light. Had the Zoroastrians comprehended the reality of Zoroaster, they would have understood Moses and Jesus. Alas! the majority of men attach themselves 33 to the name of the mediator and lose sight of the real purport.
*
~ Abdu’l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 32

*Therefore, men have always been taught and led by the Prophets of God. The Prophets of God are the Mediators of God. All the Prophets and Messengers have come from One Holy Spirit and bear the Message of God, fitted to the age in which they appear. The One Light is in them and they are One with each other. But the Eternal does not become phenomenal; neither can the phenomenal become Eternal.
*
~ Abdu’l-Baha, Abdu’l-Baha in London, p. 24

🙂
 
Here’s what Abdu’l-Baha said about the resurrection:

Question.—What is the meaning of Christ’s resurrection after three days?
Answer.—*******The resurrections of the Divine Manifestations are not of the body. All Their states, Their conditions, Their acts, the things They have established, Their teachings, Their expressions, Their parables and Their instructions have a spiritual and divine signification, and have no connection with material things. *******For example, there is the subject of Christ’s coming from heaven: it is clearly stated in many places in the Gospel that the Son of man came from heaven, He is in heaven, and He will go to heaven. So in chapter 6, verse 38, of the Gospel of John it is written: “For I came down from heaven”; and also in verse 42 we find: “And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?” Also in John, chapter 3, verse 13: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”
Observe that it is said, “The Son of man is in heaven,” while at that time Christ was on earth. Notice also that it is said that Christ came from heaven, though He came from the womb of Mary, and His body was born of Mary. It is clear, then, that when it is said that the Son of man is come from heaven, this has not an outward but an inward signification; it is a spiritual, not a material, fact. The meaning is that though, apparently, Christ was born from 104 the womb of Mary, in reality He came from heaven, from the center of the Sun of Reality, from the Divine World, and the Spiritual Kingdom. And as it has become evident that Christ came from the spiritual heaven of the Divine Kingdom, therefore, His disappearance under the earth for three days has an inner signification and is not an outward fact. In the same way, His resurrection from the interior of the earth is also symbolical; it is a spiritual and divine fact, and not material; and likewise His ascension to heaven is a spiritual and not material ascension.
Beside these explanations, it has been established and proved by science that the visible heaven is a limitless area, void and empty, where innumerable stars and planets revolve.
Therefore, we say that the meaning of Christ’s resurrection is as follows: the disciples were troubled and agitated after the martyrdom of Christ. The Reality of Christ, which signifies His teachings, His bounties, His perfections and His spiritual power, was hidden and concealed for two or three days after His martyrdom, and was not resplendent and manifest. No, rather it was lost, for the believers were few in number and were troubled and agitated. The Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body; and when after three days the disciples became assured and steadfast, and began to serve the Cause of Christ, and resolved to spread the divine teachings, putting His counsels into practice, and arising to serve Him, the Reality of Christ became resplendent and His bounty appeared; His religion found life; His teachings and His admonitions became evident and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it.
Such is the meaning of the resurrection of Christ, and this was a true resurrection. But as the clergy have neither understood the meaning of the Gospels nor comprehended 105 the symbols, therefore, it has been said that religion is in contradiction to science, and science in opposition to religion, as, for example, this subject of the ascension of Christ with an elemental body to the visible heaven is contrary to the science of mathematics. But when the truth of this subject becomes clear, and the symbol is explained, science in no way contradicts it; but, on the contrary, science and the intelligence affirm it. (from: Some Answered Questions)
Whoa ok. So Jesus rose spiritually, but not physically? Is that the Baha’i position? Am I understanding that phrase that Abdul’-Baha used that I highlighted correctly?

So, I suppose this passage of Scripture is just dead wrong apparently.
And as they were saying this Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, “Peace to you”. But they were afraid and frightened, and ***supposed they saw a spirit. ***And he said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do questionings rise in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself, handle me, FOR A SPIRIT HAS NOT FLESH AND BONES AS YOU SEE THAT I HAVE." And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet. And while they still disbelieved for joy, and wondered, he said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate it before them. (Lk 24:36-43)
So question to my Baha’i friends, why is Jesus going through so much trouble to convince them He’s really, truly, physically risen, if according to Baha’u’llah, He was just spiritual resurrected? This is exactly what the apostles first assumed in fact. Why would Jesus trick them? Because that is the only explanation I can see of what He’s doing if we accept Baha’ullah’s interpretation of the resurrection. His words are very clear and unambiguous.
 
I would question the idea that each religion teaches there is a mediator between man and God. Buddhism doesn’t seem to have any such concept, rather it emphasizes escaping suffering to escape the karmic cycle or something to that degree. In islam Muhammad is not a mediator and we are reliant on allah alone and his mercy, Muhammad who may have an exalted role is but merely a man who could be destroyed, like the quran says of Jesus in contradiction to the new testament.

See the idea of Christ being the unique mediator is not limted to time and place. Jesus is quite clear in the gospels to the Jews that Abraham looked forward to the day when Christ would come because this would be the moment when God’s promises would be fulfilled. There is no room in the theology of the new testament for another mediator, mediator in that he bridges the gap between God and man, it was accomplished by Christ for us on the cross and through the resurrection. It was a one time act of sacrifice.

Hebrews 2 11The Son who sanctifies and the sons who are sanctified have a common origin, all of them; he is not ashamed, then, to own them as his brethren. 12 I will proclaim thy renown, he says, to my brethren; with the church around me I will praise thee;[4] 13 and elsewhere he says, I will put my trust in him, and then, Here stand I, and the children God has given me.[5] 14 And since these children have a common inheritance of flesh and blood, he too shared that inheritance with them. By his death he would depose the prince of death, that is, the devil; 15 he would deliver those multitudes who lived all the while as slaves, made over to the fear of death. 16 After all, he does not make himself the angels’ champion, no sign of that; it is the sons of Abraham that he champions.[6] 17 And so he must needs become altogether like his brethren; he would be a high priest who could feel for us and be our true representative before God, to make atonement for the sins of the people. 18 It is because he himself has been tried by suffering, that he has power to help us in the trials we undergo.

The way bahai have tried to explain their concept is to say that this role belongs only to the Christ and seemingly not only to Jesus. That however is impossible to reconcile with the specific mentions of this historic Jesus who took on flesh and whom is spoken about so clearly in every book of the new testament. The concept of Christ in bahai seems totally unrelated to the concept of Christ in the new testament where it is firmly grounded in the character of Christ. Is Mirza Hussain the same Christ? What does it mean to be the same Christ? What does being the Christ mean? Is it simply God anointing certain beings for a task? In which case how do you then transfer the salvific work of Jesus to that Mirza hussain and say Mirza hussain has done everything Christ has done? The bahai use of these words and concepts lacks clarity and focus, thus you need to work hard to define your position over and against your enemies.
 
Whoa ok. So Jesus rose spiritually, but not physically? Is that the Baha’i position? Am I understanding that phrase that Abdul’-Baha used that I highlighted correctly?

So, I suppose this passage of Scripture is just dead wrong apparently.

So question to my Baha’i friends, why is Jesus going through so much trouble to convince them He’s really, truly, physically risen, if according to Baha’u’llah, He was just spiritual resurrected? This is exactly what the apostles first assumed in fact. Why would Jesus trick them? Because that is the only explanation I can see of what He’s doing if we accept Baha’ullah’s interpretation of the resurrection. His words are very clear and unambiguous.
I have brought this point up constantly to bahai and can only conclude they have no absolute means of demonstrating that Luke must be interpreted in their manner. Bahais have a reluctance to attribute anything historic to the jesus of the gospels who is more real than any Jesus they expound on. No bahai seemingly believes or wants to absolutely believe that Jesus did these wonderful miracles, that God did wonderful miracles in the Old testament, they are unimportant in the bahai view of things. The only miracles bahais seem to absolutely believe are the creation of the universe and the virgin birth (which they seem rather embarressed by as they will also say that the virgin birth was unimportant).
 
Jesus as a Manifestation of God is a the Mediator between God and man… hence they/we have no other way to God…except through the Mediator…Jesus being the Mediator of the time and place the passage in Acts refers to…

*EACH religion teaches that a mediator is necessary between man and the Creator – one who receives the full light of the divine splendor and radiates it over the human world, as the earth’s atmosphere receives and diffuses the warmth of the sun’s rays. This mediator between God and humanity has different designations though he always brings the same spiritual command.
*
*In one era he is called Abraham, at another time Moses, again he is called Buddha, another time Jesus, and yet another time Mohammad. All turned to the divine reality for their strength. Those who followed Moses accepted him as their mediator; those who followed Zoroaster accepted him as their mediator; but all the Israelites deny Zoroaster, and the Zoroastrians deny Moses. They fail to see in both the one light. Had the Zoroastrians comprehended the reality of Zoroaster, they would have understood Moses and Jesus. Alas! the majority of men attach themselves 33 to the name of the mediator and lose sight of the real purport.
*
~ Abdu’l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 32

*Therefore, men have always been taught and led by the Prophets of God. The Prophets of God are the Mediators of God. All the Prophets and Messengers have come from One Holy Spirit and bear the Message of God, fitted to the age in which they appear. The One Light is in them and they are One with each other. But the Eternal does not become phenomenal; neither can the phenomenal become Eternal.
*
~ Abdu’l-Baha, Abdu’l-Baha in London, p. 24

🙂
The first problem is that I cannot accept the Baha’i notion of “Manifestations of God”. Christ and the Apostles taught nothing close to this. Therefore any belief which uses this concept as its premise is also unacceptable. You have created a mythical figure whom you have named Jesus Christ in order to fit with your pre-conceived notions. This mythical figure is not at all close to the historical Jesus who walked with and taught our first Pope and the other Apostles. We have their eye-witness testimonies and none of them line up with the Baha’i faith tradition.

The second problem is the notion that truth is relative and changes depending upon the time and place in which one lives. Truth cannot change, therefore, if one accepts the words and life of Jesus as Truth and subsequently embraces beliefs contrary to that truth, reason alone tells us that there is a big, big problem.
 
Servant19 is getting some sleep (he’s in Australia), so I decided to spend some time researching the Baha’i religion on the Internet. I think I have learned more than I really want or need to know of the Baha’i, so I’ll be bowing out of this thread now.

For those interested:

The official website is here:

bahai.org/

For a quick overview from wikipedia:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1’%C3%AD_Faith

For balance, here are a couple testimonies from ex-Baha’i:

fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Ex16.htm

bahai-faith.com/

Finally, if you want a quick, one-sentence grasp of the Baha’i, I found this:

What Unitarian/Universalists are to Christianity, the Baha’i are to Islam.

Caveat emptor. 👍
:sad_yes:

Kinda eerie, isn’t it?
It most certainly is. Lol
 
Thanks for asking. eee the key here is he breadhed on them. Get it. Not on all the People that believed in him at that time. Them.

Okay now after he did that he gave them Human beings permission to forgive sins. Or hold them bound.

Now the Apostles had the power given to them by the Holy Spirit to forgive sins. But thats not all. That also had the power of the Holy Spirit to lay their hand upon a man, and pass on that Power of the Holy Spirit. Thats what we call Holy Orders.
Hi rinnie,

To be brief, I think history shows that a new religion has the right to change the practices of a previous religious Dispensation. Christianity changed the entire meaning of divorce and removed the necessity for circumcision.

The Bahai Faith has similarly removed the necessity for “confession of sins” to anyone but God Himself. I think, from my humble perspective, the purpose is to “cleanse” the spirit of it’s defilements on a regular basis, so I don’t see that the law has been completely abrogated, it’s just found its fulfilment here. Baha’u’llah has provided ample opportunity for us to do this, and has requested not to do it with a priest whom we see, and history has shown, as simply another human being.

If laying of hands in the process of Holy Orders was a godly process, then the animation of that individual with the Holy Spirit would unequivocally result in noble and praiseworthy deeds. To assign the Holy Spirit as the animator behind some priestly deeds throughout history is a tad unfair, to be very generous…
 
Servant19 is getting some sleep (he’s in Australia), so I decided to spend some time researching the Baha’i religion on the Internet. I think I have learned more than I really want or need to know of the Baha’i, so I’ll be bowing out of this thread now.

For those interested:

The official website is here:

bahai.org/

For a quick overview from wikipedia:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1’%C3%AD_Faith

For balance, here are a couple testimonies from ex-Baha’i:

fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Ex16.htm

bahai-faith.com/

Finally, if you want a quick, one-sentence grasp of the Baha’i, I found this:

What Unitarian/Universalists are to Christianity, the Baha’i are to Islam.

Caveat emptor. 👍
Very biased there Randy 🤷

I think your one-sentence summary of the Faith was taken from the guy who wrote www.bahai-faith.com, and if you ask him to write a one sentence summary of the Catholic Faith he would be similarly inaccurate. It seems he has a bit of a problem with ALL RELIGIONS, including Christianity, so I guess if you wish to see it as him having a problem with the Bahai Faith, I would say it’s actually all religions 👍

However, I appreciate your attempt to give a balance 🙂
 
How do the words "there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" translate into “but only during this time and place”?

If there is no other name under heaven then there is no other name under heaven, regardless of the time and place. God lives in eternity, not in time and space. He has revealed himself fully in Christ Jesus (who is God, not a “manifestation”), for all people of all times and places.
God writes these things for the same reasons as why He would ask us to “stay awake”…His return is only for those that are awake, those who are still sleeping miss the thief… …

We should cling onto His words which are SPIRIT, nothing else, not His Words which talk about physical stuff, clouds, flesh, moons and suns and stars, and robes and ornate luxuries. His Spirit is life…
If you have truly captured His Spirit, you would recognise it, wherever it may manifest itself…

To clarify, I think the words “GIVEN among men” is an important factor to indicate that this is a reference to the past and not the future
 
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