Baha'i V

[IgnatianPhilo]

As you wish. They are not contradictions to me. A great deal of the NT concerns the return of Christ, in the Glory of the Father, to bring about the ‘one fold and one shepherd’ and peace on Earth. ALL religions, in their scriptures, have variations on the same theme.

We believe that that figure promised by all religions has appeared, that the promises are over, and the age of fulfillment has begun. Heavy stuff along with a great responsibility on each individual, of whatever religion, to investigate.

The problem is that you have isolated one aspect from the other (and to the expense of it). Where is the seperation of the sheep and the goats here? Where is the judgement of Christ here on every living soul?

 

[Nick44]

Then how do the Baha’i believe that creation is eternal?

Here is what Baha’u’llah said:

As to thy question concerning the origin of creation. Know assuredly that God’s creation hath existed from eternity, and will continue to exist forever. Its beginning hath had no beginning, and its end knoweth no end. His name, the Creator, presupposeth a creation, even as His title, the Lord of Men, must involve the existence of a servant.
As to those sayings, attributed to the Prophets of old, such as, “In the beginning was God; there was no creature to know Him,” and “The Lord was alone; with no one to adore Him,” the meaning of these and similar sayings is clear and evident, and should at no time be misapprehended. To this same truth bear witness these words which He hath revealed: “God was alone; there was none else besides Him. He will always remain what He hath ever been.” Every discerning eye will readily perceive that 151 the Lord is now manifest, yet there is none to recognize His glory. By this is meant that the habitation wherein the Divine Being dwelleth is far above the reach and ken of any one besides Him. Whatsoever in the contingent world can either be expressed or apprehended, can never transgress the limits which, by its inherent nature, have been imposed upon it. God, alone, transcendeth such limitations. He, verily, is from everlasting. No peer or partner has been, or can ever be, joined with Him. No name can be compared with His Name. No pen can portray His nature, neither can any tongue depict His glory. He will, for ever, remain immeasurably exalted above any one except Himself. (Gleanings pg 150)

 

[Nick44]

The problem is that you have isolated one aspect from the other (and to the expense of it). Where is the seperation of the sheep and the goats here? Where is the judgement of Christ here on every living soul?

Esslemont, Baha’u’llah and the New Era, pp. 20-21

An important part of the Bab’s teaching is His explanation of the terms Resurrection, Day of Judgment, Paradise and Hell. By the Resurrection is meant, He said, the appearance of a new Manifestation of the Sun of Truth. The raising of the dead means the spiritual awakening of those who are asleep in the graves of ignorance, heedlessness and lust. The Day of Judgment is the Day of the new Manifestation, by acceptance or rejection of Whose Revelation the sheep are separated from the goats, for the sheep know the voice of the Good Shepherd and follow Him. Paradise is the joy of knowing and loving God, as revealed through His Manifestation, thereby attaining to the utmost perfection of which one is capable, and, after death, obtaining entrance to the Kingdom of God and the life everlasting. Hell is simply deprivation of that knowledge of God with consequent failure to attain divine perfection, and loss of the Eternal Favor. He definitely declared that these terms have no real meaning apart from this; and that the prevalent ideas regarding the resurrection of the material body, a material heaven and hell, and the like, are mere figments of the imagination. He taught that man has a life after death, and that in the afterlife progress towards perfection is limitless.

 

[tonyfish58]

Thanks Tony for the welcome. I’ll look into that book thanks.

The problem is Tony, that verse doesn’t say anything about a hidden secret coming that could be missed.

The day coming upon us suddenly like a trap is exactly that. An sudden, unexpected arrival. A trap isn’t missed, a trap is something you are clearly aware of once it’s upon you.

We do have to stay awake, we have to be prepared, because as it says in that passage you quoted, we are going to stand before Jesus and be judged by Him. If we’re acting like He’s going to never come back, or we have all the time in the world to repent and start living rightly, then He’s going to come at an hour we don’t expect, and we’ll be caught off guard and punished accordingly. See Luke 12:35-47 for more.

Here’s the thing. If Jesus had said something like, “For as a thief comes in the night, and no one expects or sees him as he does his work, so will the coming of the Son of man be.” You might have a point. The problem is, He doesn’t do that. The analogy he makes is clearly one of preparedness. Again, if He had ended this parable with the saying, “Therefore, you must also be ready, for the Son of man is coming like a thief who may not be seen.” You would have something. But He doesn’t. He makes clear the point of the analogy. “The Son of man is coming when you do not expect.” No one expects a robber. If they did, they would be prepared and wouldn’t get robbed. That’s the point.

Interestingly, He DOES compare himself to lightning “that comes in the east and shines in the west.” And that comparison is in the context of warning his disciples of people who claim Jesus has returned in a hidden or secret way. He says don’t listen to them, because when the Son of man comes it will be as obvious as lightning. You can’t miss lightning.

:ehh: Or it could be exactly what He said it was. I need to see more convincing evidence to think otherwise. At this point your position is just eisegesis.

Also, how do the Baha’i reconcile the descriptions of Jesus’ coming that are given by St. Paul who says,

“For the Lord Himself will descend from Heaven with a cry of command, with the archangels call and with the sound of the trumpets of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we always be with the Lord.” (1 Thes 4:16-17)

If Baha’ullah was Christ returned, why didn’t any of this happen? Why weren’t all the dead raised? Why didn’t we see Christ descend from heaven like He himself described?

With all the descriptions that the New Testament gives of the Second Coming, I just find it hard to reconcile them with the Baha’i’s claim, especially considering Jesus’ own warnings.

Thanks for taking the time to respond to me though! I appreciate it.

Robyn p - Thanks for the response. Work commitments take me away from the Forum from time to time and when I return there are usually too many responses to read.

I glanced through what has been happening for the last few days and have concluded it is time to move on. I am not one for back and forward rhetoric, getting old an Impatient

I think enough answers have been given to all the questions posed and each Faiths position has been made clear.

I will leave with this parting thought. Baha’u’llah has warned us that History/Doctrine/Learning/Love can all become a veil. We are told we have to think about what we beleive without preconceived ideas! How - Well the following passages in the Bible gives us a good guide and worth meditating on.

Luke 18:17 ESV / 67 helpful votes - Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.”

Matthew 18:3 ESV / 58 - And said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Mark 10:13-16 ESV / 38 - And they were bringing children to him that he might touch them, and the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw it, he was indignant and said to them, “Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.” And he took them in his arms and blessed them, laying his hands on them.

Regards Tony

 

[Nick44]

I am without words.

If they didn’t really die then they are not really martyrs, are they? If they were not really martyrs but presented to the world as martyrs then yes, it is a con game.

Muhammad said that although their bodies died, they were still alive (though you perceive it not). Mortal bodies die; the soul doesn’t.

 

[rinnie]

Hi rinnie,

To be brief, I think history shows that a new religion has the right to change the practices of a previous religious Dispensation. Christianity changed the entire meaning of divorce and removed the necessity for circumcision.

The Bahai Faith has similarly removed the necessity for “confession of sins” to anyone but God Himself. I think, from my humble perspective, the purpose is to “cleanse” the spirit of it’s defilements on a regular basis, so I don’t see that the law has been completely abrogated, it’s just found its fulfilment here. Baha’u’llah has provided ample opportunity for us to do this, and has requested not to do it with a priest whom we see, and history has shown, as simply another human being.

If laying of hands in the process of Holy Orders was a godly process, then the animation of that individual with the Holy Spirit would unequivocally result in noble and praiseworthy deeds. To assign the Holy Spirit as the animator behind some priestly deeds throughout history is a tad unfair, to be very generous…

But see you say you go by the bible. Jesus said that Peter held the keys to the kingdom until the end of age. Now if you go by the bible how can you deny the Pope?

You have to say the bible is not the true word of God then.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Sure I acknowledge that Christians were asked to eat the flesh and blood of Christ, but what does the flesh and blood mean? What is the flesh of Jesus? He says the bread comes from heaven, not from the local supermarket.

Jesus wants us to be united with him through faith, of course. But through his Church he has provided for much more intimate contact with himself. He has given us food – the Eucharist – through which he gives us his very self. At the Last Supper he said of the elements, “this is my body,” “this is my blood.” (Matt. 26:26-28).

Jesus Christ gives us himself under forms of bread and wine. In all the other sacraments, Jesus uses physical means through which he gives us his grace: the water of baptism, the oil of the anointing, and so. But in the Eucharist, the physical means Jesus uses themselves become Jesus Christ himself.

Only God himself could fully explain the miracle of the Eucharist, but the Holy Spirit enables his Church to describe the miracle, in her doctrine of transubstantiation.

To describe what happens in the Eucharistic action, the Church uses two basic concepts. The first is “substance”: the inner essence of something: what it really is at the core of its being. The second is “accidents” (or we might use another word, “appearances”): the qualities of a thing which we can experience by one or more of our senses.

As an example of “accidents,” take a book. You can see its shape, its weight, its color. You might even imitate a toddler and tear out a page and chew on it to test its flavor. What you can see or feel or taste are the “accidents,” the “appearances” of the book. But the essence of this object is book.

In the Eucharist, the appearances of the bread and wine remain unchanged. The essence of the bread and wine is totally changed. Their essence is changed into the very Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity, of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Church calls this change “transubstantiation.” The change is both miraculous and unique. We human beings can change both the inner essence (“the substance”) of something and its appearances (“the accidents”). By cooking, we can change wheat into bread. IN its essence it is no longer what; it is bread. It no longer looks like what: the appearances (“the accidents”) are changed.

We human beings can change the appearances of something without changing the substance. We can freeze water so that it no longer looks like water, but it’s still water. We can transform water into steam so that it no longer looks like water, but it’s still water.

But here is something impossible for us: we can never change the inner essence (the “substance”) of something without changing its appearances (the “accidents”). Only God can do that. That’s exactly what he does in the consecration of the Eucharist. God changes the substance of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood, soul and divinity, of Jesus Christ. But the accidents, the appearances of bread and wine remain unchanged.

Here is the miracle, enacted by God at every Catholic altar. The Blessed Sacrament does not merely give us a spiritual presence of our Lord. This Sacrament gives us the actual flesh and blood of the risen Christ to be our food, to become literally part of us.

It still boils down to the question, what does all this mean to me? What does it mean to my children, my neighbours, my community and the world at large?

It means you need to “Do this in remembrance of me.”

 

[SteveVH]

Muhammad said that although their bodies died, they were still alive (though you perceive it not). Mortal bodies die; the soul doesn’t.

But Muhammad denied the physical death of Jesus, Nick. He denied that Jesus mortal body died on the cross. He is either right or he is wrong, yes?

 

[SteveVH]

Muhammad said that although their bodies died, they were still alive (though you perceive it not). Mortal bodies die; the soul doesn’t.

As to the Muslim martyrs, what are you trying to argue? That when a person dies his soul lives on, somewhere, therefore they’re not “really dead”? I don’t think anyone is arguing against this belief.

 

[Nick44]

But Muhammad denied the physical death of Jesus, Nick. He denied that Jesus mortal body died on the cross. He is either right or he is wrong, yes?

This has already been discussed in detail and anything further is sawing sawdust.

 

[arthra]

Then how do the Baha’i believe that creation is eternal?

God as Creator still creates in our view … so the universe continues…

His creation no end hath overtaken, and it hath ever existed from the “Beginning that hath no beginning”; and the Manifestations of His Beauty no beginning hath beheld, and they will continue to the “End that knoweth no end.” Ponder this utterance in thine heart, and reflect how it is applicable unto all these holy Souls.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 166)

LXXVIII. As to thy question concerning the origin of creation. Know assuredly that God’s creation hath existed from eternity, and will continue to exist forever. Its beginning hath had no beginning, and its end knoweth no end. His name, the Creator, presupposeth a creation, even as His title, the Lord of Men, must involve the existence of a servant.

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 150)

Therefore, as the Essence of Unity (that is, the existence of God) is everlasting and eternal – that is to say, it has neither beginning nor end – it is certain that this world of existence,** this endless universe, has neither beginning nor end.** Yes, it may be that one of the parts of the universe, one of the globes, for example, may come into existence, or may be disintegrated, but the other endless globes are still existing; the universe would not be disordered nor destroyed. 181 On the contrary, existence is eternal and perpetual. As each globe has a beginning, necessarily it has an end because every composition, collective or particular, must of necessity be decomposed. The only difference is that some are quickly decomposed, and others more slowly, but it is impossible that a composed thing should not eventually be decomposed.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 180)

 

[arthra]

But Muhammad denied the physical death of Jesus, Nick. He denied that Jesus mortal body died on the cross. He is either right or he is wrong, yes?

The Qur’an we believe states that they could not kill or crucify the Spirit of Jesus… His Cause could not be killed or destroyed and the Spirit of Christ was taken up by Allah…

'Abdu’l-Baha’s interpretation of the verse (Surih 4:157) is provided in a Tablet published in Star of the West, vol. 2, no. 7, p. 13, in which He has written:

“In regard to the verse, which is revealed in the Koran, that His Highness, Christ, was not killed and was not crucified, by this is meant the Reality of Christ. Although they crucified this elemental body, yet the merciful reality and the heavenly existence remain eternal and undying, and it was protected from the oppression and persecution of the enemies, for Christ is eternal and Everlasting. How can He die? This death and crucifixion was imposed on the physical body of Christ, and not upon the Spirit of Christ”

In Surih 4 verse 158 it says:

Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.

So the Spirit of Christ was raised to Allah.

 

[Servant19]

But see you say you go by the bible. Jesus said that Peter held the keys to the kingdom until the end of age. Now if you go by the bible how can you deny the Pope?

You have to say the bible is not the true word of God then.

Very simple dear rinnie

This is because the end of the age has come, and Baha’u’llah has heralded a new age, with new heaven and a new earth

 

[Servant19]

As to the Muslim martyrs, what are you trying to argue? That when a person dies his soul lives on, somewhere, therefore they’re not “really dead”? I don’t think anyone is arguing against this belief.

God bless you Steve, I think you’re finally understanding the apparent contradiction

 

[Servant19]

It means you need to “Do this in remembrance of me.”

And this is EXACTLY what the Baha’is of the world are engaged in right now.

Millions of souls (whether Baha’i or not, it doesn’t matter) are carrying out the Will of God according to the Writings of Baha’u’llah to bring about the unification of the human race, once and for all.

As I have said, you can retain your Catholic Faith while carrying out these works, they are only deeds that are designed to empower individuals to take ownership, and develop an understanding, of their own personal and social, spiritual and material welfare.

All this without a single piece of bread consumed. And I assure you, I still enjoy an incredibly intimate union with my Maker, through my obligatory prayer, fasting, and 19 Day Feast participation which gives me sufficient bread from the Body of God that I can consume.

 

[Servant19]

I am without words.

LOL !!

Admit it Steve, it put a smile on your face. It summarises the theology of Baha’i belief pretty panoramically.

I’m sorry if you cannot accept it, but its reality, look at the world around you. Baha’is think this is beautiful and it gives us GREAT JOY TO BEHOLD

 

[Servant19]

Esslemont, Baha’u’llah and the New Era, pp. 20-21

An important part of the Bab’s teaching is His explanation of the terms Resurrection, Day of Judgment, Paradise and Hell. By the Resurrection is meant, He said, the appearance of a new Manifestation of the Sun of Truth. The raising of the dead means the spiritual awakening of those who are asleep in the graves of ignorance, heedlessness and lust. The Day of Judgment is the Day of the new Manifestation, by acceptance or rejection of Whose Revelation the sheep are separated from the goats, for the sheep know the voice of the Good Shepherd and follow Him. Paradise is the joy of knowing and loving God, as revealed through His Manifestation, thereby attaining to the utmost perfection of which one is capable, and, after death, obtaining entrance to the Kingdom of God and the life everlasting. Hell is simply deprivation of that knowledge of God with consequent failure to attain divine perfection, and loss of the Eternal Favor. He definitely declared that these terms have no real meaning apart from this; and that the prevalent ideas regarding the resurrection of the material body, a material heaven and hell, and the like, are mere figments of the imagination. He taught that man has a life after death, and that in the afterlife progress towards perfection is limitless.

So true indeed Nick

Was Apostle Paul resurrected too? I think so…

 

[daler]

As to the Muslim martyrs, what are you trying to argue? That when a person dies his soul lives on, somewhere, therefore they’re not “really dead”? I don’t think anyone is arguing against this belief.

Steve,
. I think that the Word of God, from whatever source, is intended to stir the ashes so our fire doesn’t go on, meaning that we are supposed to be thinking and considering new ideas as they come. Some thoughts…

The Crucifixion
Luke 2343 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

. Literally, Jesus was taken to the tomb, right? If both Jesus and the thief were “really dead”, where did the body and soul of the thief go? Silly question, but maybe worth asking. So did he have to wait around for 3 days for the Lord Christ to join him?
. No need to answer, the point follows:

. the martyrs referred to in the Quran “are alive”, and not dead, according to its text. What is dead is their physical bodies, not their souls, which, like the thief, are in heaven or paradise, with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 12:4
. “was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell.”

. Where my thoughts and understanding goes is that what we, in earthly language call “heaven”, is beyond words and description, where science cannot detect and religion also has limits. Hence, we are left with metaphorical hints which seem to take us beyond the physical world to a spiritual ocean, the closest to which we can come is the beach.

. “No man shall attain the shores of the ocean of true understanding except he be detached from all that is in heaven and on earth. Sanctify your souls, O ye peoples of the world, that haply ye may attain that station which God hath destined for you and enter thus the tabernacle which, according to the dispensations of Providence, hath been raised in the firmament of the Bayán.”

.from the Kitab-i-Iqan (Book of Certitude)

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-1.html

 

[daler]

.from the Kitab-i-Iqan (Book of Certitude)

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-1.html

. the following first paragraph from the Book of Certitude establishes that the words of mortal men are insufficient and must be set aside.

. “The essence of these words is this: they that tread the path of faith, they that thirst for the wine of certitude, must cleanse themselves of all that is earthly—their ears from idle talk, their minds from vain imaginings, their hearts from worldly affections, their eyes from that which perisheth. They should put their trust in God, and, holding fast unto Him, follow in His way. Then will they be made worthy of the effulgent glories of the sun of divine knowledge and understanding, and become the recipients of a grace that is infinite and unseen, inasmuch as man can never hope to attain unto the knowledge of the All-Glorious, can never quaff from the stream of divine knowledge and wisdom, can never enter the abode of immortality, nor partake of the cup of divine nearness and favour, unless and until he ceases to regard the words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God and His Prophets.”

.

 

[Nick44]

The problem is that you have isolated one aspect from the other (and to the expense of it). Where is the seperation of the sheep and the goats here? Where is the judgement of Christ here on every living soul?

In addition to the ‘judgement’ while still in this world, Baha’u’llah also teaches of the judgement each of us will undergo in the next:

“It is clear and evident that all men shall, after their physical death, estimate the worth of their deeds, and realize all that their hands have wrought. I swear by the Day Star that shineth above the horizon of Divine power! They that are the followers of the one true God shall, the moment they depart out of this life, experience such joy and gladness as would be impossible to describe, while they that live in error shall be seized with such fear and trembling, and shall be filled with such consternation, as nothing can exceed. Well is it with him that hath quaffed the choice and incorruptible wine of faith through the gracious favor and the manifold bounties of Him Who is the Lord of all Faiths”…. (Gleanings pg 171)