Baha'i V

[IgnatianPhilo]

In addition to the ‘judgement’ while still in this world, Baha’u’llah also teaches of the judgement each of us will undergo in the next:

“It is clear and evident that all men shall, after their physical death, estimate the worth of their deeds, and realize all that their hands have wrought. I swear by the Day Star that shineth above the horizon of Divine power! They that are the followers of the one true God shall, the moment they depart out of this life, experience such joy and gladness as would be impossible to describe, while they that live in error shall be seized with such fear and trembling, and shall be filled with such consternation, as nothing can exceed. Well is it with him that hath quaffed the choice and incorruptible wine of faith through the gracious favor and the manifold bounties of Him Who is the Lord of all Faiths”…. (Gleanings pg 171)

1 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ 40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ 45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

The parable of the sheep and the goats would pose a problem for bahai as it shows a collective judgement of all the people at once, the wicked and the righteous, the goats and the sheep, one given to eternity the other to damnation. Jesus tells us that this will happen when the son returns in his glory and earlier on in the previous chapter he explains this.

29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’**
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

This is an end of time catyclysm which christ depicts, not merely the description of individual judgement of individual death. The parable of the sheep and the goats is preceded by the call to warning that no one knows the time or the hour. This is again empaphised with the parable of the ten virgins who are saved and the other virgins that failed to see the call. If these events have already happened in the life Mirza Hussain, we are the other virgins who failed to see and cannot be saved.**

 

[Servant19]

1 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ 40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ 45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

The parable of the sheep and the goats would pose a problem for bahai as it shows a collective judgement of all the people at once, the wicked and the righteous, the goats and the sheep, one given to eternity the other to damnation. Jesus tells us that this will happen when the son returns in his glory and earlier on in the previous chapter he explains this.

You are absolutely right Ignatian. It is explained by this quote (posted by Nick just one page ago):

An important part of the Bab’s teaching is His explanation of the terms Resurrection, Day of Judgment, Paradise and Hell. By the Resurrection is meant, He said, the appearance of a new Manifestation of the Sun of Truth. The raising of the dead means the spiritual awakening of those who are asleep in the graves of ignorance, heedlessness and lust. The Day of Judgment is the Day of the new Manifestation, by acceptance or rejection of Whose Revelation the sheep are separated from the goats, for the sheep know the voice of the Good Shepherd and follow Him. Paradise is the joy of knowing and loving God, as revealed through His Manifestation, thereby attaining to the utmost perfection of which one is capable, and, after death, obtaining entrance to the Kingdom of God and the life everlasting. Hell is simply deprivation of that knowledge of God with consequent failure to attain divine perfection, and loss of the Eternal Favor. He definitely declared that these terms have no real meaning apart from this; and that the prevalent ideas regarding the resurrection of the material body, a material heaven and hell, and the like, are mere figments of the imagination. He taught that man has a life after death, and that in the afterlife progress towards perfection is limitless.

As soon as Baha’u’llah said the Words “I am”, the whole of mankind went into Judgement, you and me included…The Son has returned in the Glory of the Father…

29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’**
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

This is an end of time catyclysm which christ depicts, not merely the description of individual judgement of individual death. The parable of the sheep and the goats is preceded by the call to warning that no one knows the time or the hour. This is again empaphised with the parable of the ten virgins who are saved and the other virgins that failed to see the call. If these events have already happened in the life Mirza Hussain, we are the other virgins who failed to see and cannot be saved.**

One question, if this is going to “literally” happen, how can we “mourn” when we see His coming? In fact, how can we even see? The sun is not giving its light and neither is the moon…
Also, if the stars are going to fall from the sky, where will they fall to?

 

[Servant19]

Glad you can see where we are coming from. Actually, you might be interested to know that the Catholic Church believes the glorified body is not exactly the same as our earthly body either. It does have different properties. But it is a real body, not a mere spirit. And that’s the key.

No offense Servant, but this doesn’t prove anything. The Gospel of Mark is the shortest Gospel, and leaves out several things that the others contain in greater detail. (Jesus’ birth, the Sermon on the Mount etc…) But that doesn’t prove they didn’t happen.

Baha’i believe Jesus was born of a virgin (Correct??) But using this logic for rejecting the later accounts of the Resurrection, we should reject the accounts of the miraculous nature of Christ’s birth as well, because Mark doesn’t mention them. After all, the amount of attention to detail given to PROVE that Jesus was born of a virgin seen in Luke and Matthew, which are absent in the original Mark, demonstrate that they are subjective visions of the apostles to give Jesus more credibility.

See the problem?

I object to reducing the Bible to a mere collection of spiritual truths. Yes, they are certainly that. Some books are not meant to be taken in a strict historical sense, this is true. But when the author of a book says something like this:

In as much as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things which have been accomplished among us, just as they were delivered to us from those who** from the beginning were eyewitnesses** and ministers of the word, it seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you,most excellent Theophilus, that you may know the truth concerning the things of which have been revealed to us. (Lk 1:1-4)

Or this:

For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. (2 Pet 1:16)

They obviously intend their message to be taken as a real historical event. You don’t use that kind of language if that is not your intent.

Now, I realize this doesn’t PROVE that what the apostles wrote was true and accurate, (for that, other arguments are needed) but it does show that they at least meant it to be taken that way. Which leads us to two possibilities, 1. They were telling the truth. Or 2. They told outright lies or embellished and stretched the truth.

The Gospels being merely a collection of spiritual truths, but not relaying actual historical events is not a valid option, because their authors go to great pains to make sure their audience realizes these things really happened and are attested to by eyewitnesses. (Especially Luke, and it’s his gospel that contains the strongest account of the physical resurrection)

So, if that account in Luke didn’t happen, but Luke made sure to convince us that he was very diligent in his research, then I see no other choice but to conclude he lied. There’s no middle option. We have to make a choice.

The way I see the Baha’i position is ultimately one that is too afraid to take sides. They don’t want to say that the authors of the Gospels were liars or deluded, but they can’t accept the Resurrection. So this watered down middle option is given. But as we saw, it’s not a valid option.

Thank you for taking the time to address my question. While I don’t agree with your positions, I appreciate you being willing to dialogue.

Thankyou Robyn

I appreciate your thoughts. I actually only deny the physical resurrection and accept the virgin birth PURELY based off the Revelation of Baha’u’llah. We do not deny the fact that miracles are perfectly within the bounds of reason in how God operates, but we also recognize Baha’u’llah, totally and utterly immersed in His ocean, and like His drops, we motion with His waves to and fro in whichever direction He wishes to take us, and we have found that it is good, very good!

I recognize Baha’u’llah to be my Lord and the Supreme Manifestation of God, by no other means than how Peter recognized Jesus to be the Son of the Living God. This is a point worthy of serious attention I would suggest. The Resurrection meant nothing to Peter during his time spent with Jesus (it hadn’t happened yet), serving Him, following Him, absorbing His Words, so why should it mean so much to you?

Answer this question and a veil will hopefully be lifted to enable you to become guided by the Father (as Peter was) towards the Truth.

I pray for you as I am hopeful that you will remember me in your prayers, dear one
God bless!

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

You are absolutely right Ignatian. It is explained by this quote (posted by Nick just one page ago):

An important part of the Bab’s teaching is His explanation of the terms Resurrection, Day of Judgment, Paradise and Hell. By the Resurrection is meant, He said, the appearance of a new Manifestation of the Sun of Truth. The raising of the dead means the spiritual awakening of those who are asleep in the graves of ignorance, heedlessness and lust. The Day of Judgment is the Day of the new Manifestation, by acceptance or rejection of Whose Revelation the sheep are separated from the goats, for the sheep know the voice of the Good Shepherd and follow Him. Paradise is the joy of knowing and loving God, as revealed through His Manifestation, thereby attaining to the utmost perfection of which one is capable, and, after death, obtaining entrance to the Kingdom of God and the life everlasting. Hell is simply deprivation of that knowledge of God with consequent failure to attain divine perfection, and loss of the Eternal Favor. He definitely declared that these terms have no real meaning apart from this; and that the prevalent ideas regarding the resurrection of the material body, a material heaven and hell, and the like, are mere figments of the imagination. He taught that man has a life after death, and that in the afterlife progress towards perfection is limitless.

As soon as Baha’u’llah said the Words “I am”, the whole of mankind went into Judgement, you and me included…The Son has returned in the Glory of the Father…

One question, if this is going to “literally” happen, how can we “mourn” when we see His coming? In fact, how can we even see? The sun is not giving its light and neither is the moon…
Also, if the stars are going to fall from the sky, where will they fall to?

Jesus describes his return, it is something earth shattering, something which will redefine our existence beyond just adding some more beliefs into the world. It is glorification, the total defeat of death and his being established as king over the entire earth. Mirza Hussain did not do these things, nor do I accept this attempt to white wash what Christ said concerning his return. Mirza Hussain will be an obscure blot on history, nothing more, bahai can pretend he invented our modern world and changed things in a vain attempt to get a symbollic representation of Jesus’ words but in the end we see it a foolish thing to believe.

Mirza Hussain has not judged the entire world, he has not seperated the sheep from the goats, all judgement was not handed to him and nor did he have any power. Jesus however when he does return will bring all peoples into judgement and hold them accountable, this imagery is clear in both the old and new testament.

 

[tonyfish58]

Baha’u’llah is quite clear on the Return has Happened

‘Have the verses been sent down?’ Say ‘Yea, by Him Who is the Lord of the heavens!’ ‘Hath the Hour come?’ ‘Nay, more; it hath passed, by Him Who is the Revealer of clear tokens! Verily, the Inevitable is come, and He, the True One, hath appeared with proof and testimony. The Plain is disclosed, and mankind is sore vexed and fearful. Earthquakes have broken loose, and the tribes have lamented, for fear of God, the Lord of Strength, the All-Compelling.’ Say: ‘The stunning trumpet-blast hath been loudly raised, and the Day is God’s, the One, the Unconstrained.’ And they say: ‘Hath the Catastrophe come to pass?’ Say: ‘Yea, by the Lord of Lords!’ ‘Is the Resurrection come?’ ‘Nay, more; He Who is the Self-Subsisting hath appeared with the Kingdom of His signs.’ ‘Seest thou men laid low?’ ‘Yea, by my Lord, the Most High, the Most Glorious!’ ‘Have the tree-stumps been uprooted?’ ‘Yea, more; the mountains have been scattered in dust; by Him the Lord of attributes!’ They say: ‘Where is Paradise, and where is Hell?’ Say: ‘The one is reunion with Me; the other thine own self, O thou who dost associate a partner with God and doubtest.’ They say: ‘We see not the Balance.’ Say: ‘Surely, by my Lord, the God of Mercy! None can see it except such as are endued with insight.’ They say: ‘Have the stars fallen?’ Say: ‘Yea, when He Who is the Self-Subsisting dwelt in the Land of Mystery. Take heed, ye who are endued with discernment!’ All the signs appeared when We drew forth the Hand of Power from the bosom of majesty and might. Verily, the Crier hath cried out, when the promised time came, and they that have recognized the splendours of Sinai have swooned away in the wilderness of hesitation, before the awful majesty of thy Lord, the Lord of creation. The trumpet asketh: ‘Hath the Bugle been sounded?’ Say: ‘Yea, by the King of Revelation! when He mounted the throne of His Name, the All-Merciful.’ Darkness hath been chased away by the dawning light of the mercy of thy Lord, the Source of all light. The breeze of the All-Merciful hath wafted, and the souls have been quickened in the tombs of their bodies. Thus hath the decree been fulfilled by God, the Mighty, the Beneficent. They who reject the truth have said: ‘When were the heavens cleft asunder?’ Say: ‘While ye lay in the graves of waywardness and error.’ Among the faithless is he who rubbeth his eyes, and looketh to the right and to the left. Say: ‘Blinded art thou. No refuge hast thou to flee to.’ And among them is he who saith: ‘Have men been gathered together?’ Say: ‘Yea, by My Lord! whilst thou didst lie in the cradle of idle fancies.’ And among them is he who saith: ‘Hath the Book been sent down through the power of the true Faith?’ Say: ‘The true Faith itself is astounded. Fear ye, O ye men of understanding heart!’ And among them is he who saith: ‘Have I been assembled with others, blind?’ Say: ‘Yea, by Him that rideth upon the clouds!’ Paradise is decked with mystic roses, and hell hath been made to blaze with the fire of the impious. Say: ‘The light hath shone forth from the horizon of Revelation, and the whole earth hath been illumined at the coming of Him Who is the Lord of the Day of the Covenant!’ The doubters have perished, whilst he that turned, guided by the light of assurance, unto the Dayspring of Certitude hath prospered. Blessed art thou, who hast fixed thy gaze upon Me, for this Tablet which hath been sent down for thee—a Tablet which causeth the souls of men to soar. Commit it to memory, and recite it. By My life! It is a door to the mercy of thy Lord. Well is it with him that reciteth it at eventide and at dawn. We, verily, heard thy praise of this Cause, through which the mountain of knowledge was crushed, and men’s feet have slipped. My glory be upon thee and upon whomsoever hath turned unto the Almighty, the All-Bounteous. The Tablet is ended, but the theme is unexhausted. Be patient, for thy Lord is patient.

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TB/tb-9.html

Farewell and best of luck to all - May Faith and life treat you well.

Regards TONY

 

[Servant19]

May I also ask how Catholics reconcile the fact that:

1. The times of the Gentiles have been fulfilled, and
2. The Gospel has been preached to all nations

…with the insistence that Jesus has not returned?

Thanks

May I ask that this question also be addressed by the Catholics please?

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

But see you say you go by the bible. Jesus said that Peter held the keys to the kingdom until the end of age. Now if you go by the bible how can you deny the Pope?
.

Bahai views of the papacy are a new topic on this forum I think. I can start the ball rolling with two quotes:

“As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its Divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the Divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended. The Founder of the Christian Faith is designated by Bahá’u’lláh as the ‘Spirit of God’, is proclaimed as the One Who ‘appeared out of the breath of the Holy Ghost’, and is even extolled as the ‘Essence of the Spirit’. His mother is described as ‘that veiled and immortal, that most beauteous countenance’, and the station of her Son eulogized as a ‘station which hath been exalted above the imaginings of all that dwell on earth,’ whilst Peter is recognized as one whom God has caused 'the mysteries of wisdom and of utterance of flow out of his mouth.’”
(Shoghi Effendi: The Promised Day is Come, pp. 113-114)

However this one has a sting in its tail :

“Caiaphas and Annas were the colossal pillars of the Mosaic Dispensation in the day of His Highness the Spirit; but as they did not acknowledge the Word of God, they fell from the apex of glory to the bottom of the pit of the greatest abasement. But Peter was a catcher of fish; as he turned his face toward the Word of God, the fame of his imperishable, deathless and immortal glory encircled East and West; and he found in the sovereignty of the Kingdom, eternal and everlasting majesty. It is the same in these days.”
(Abdu’l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu’l-Baha v1, p. 223)

 

[arthra]

Perhaps understanding what is a direct source of revelation may assist in some way…while we believe the Bible is inspired we don’t feel it is necessarily accurate…nor is it understood very well.

If there was some way you could have a direct quotation from Jesus in the language He spoke transcribed by a trusted follower then you have a direct source of revelation and an authority…

The best you can have is a translation of what He said that had been a verbal tradition passed down thirty or forty years after His crucifixion…in a different language from the one He spoke…

 

[Randy_Carson]

And this is EXACTLY what the Baha’is of the world are engaged in right now.

Millions of souls (whether Baha’i or not, it doesn’t matter) are carrying out the Will of God according to the Writings of Baha’u’llah to bring about the unification of the human race, once and for all.

As I have said, you can retain your Catholic Faith while carrying out these works, they are only deeds that are designed to empower individuals to take ownership, and develop an understanding, of their own personal and social, spiritual and material welfare.

All this without a single piece of bread consumed. And I assure you, I still enjoy an incredibly intimate union with my Maker, through my obligatory prayer, fasting, and 19 Day Feast participation which gives me sufficient bread from the Body of God that I can consume.

But you are not receiving the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ as He commanded because your group does not have a valid priesthood capable of consecrating the Bread and Wine. Without transubstantiation, Jesus is not present.

So, you’re putting forth a lot of effort and still coming up short.

 

[Servant19]

But you are not receiving the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ as He commanded because your group does not have a valid priesthood capable of consecrating the Bread and Wine. Without transubstantiation, Jesus is not present.

So, you’re putting forth a lot of effort and still coming up short.

Coming up short in what way specifically Randy?

 

[TexanKnight]

Perhaps understanding what is a direct source of revelation may assist in some way…while we believe the Bible is inspired we don’t feel it is necessarily accurate…nor is it understood very well.

If there was some way you could have a direct quotation from Jesus in the language He spoke transcribed by a trusted follower then you have a direct source of revelation and an authority…

The best you can have is a translation of what He said that had been a verbal tradition passed down thirty or forty years after His crucifixion…in a different language from the one He spoke…

so then any English translations from Bahaula (sp, sorry) cannot be trusted?

 

[Servant19]

so then any English translations from Bahaula (sp, sorry) cannot be trusted?

Hi Texan, all the Writings of Bahaullah were either written in modern day Arabic or Farsi, in His own hand, or were transcribed by several appointed amanuenses (such was the rapidity of Revelation) all writing sometimes at the same time. The records were then transcribed and presented to Baha’u’llah for His personal ratification.

It’s as authentic as it gets

Now, without doubt, the English translations do lose some of the melodious beauty present in the original language, but the meaning has most certainly been retained. Shoghi Effendi, Baha’u’llahs great grandson was appointed to be the chosen translator of several of Baha’u’llahs Works

 

[Nick44]

Jesus describes his return, it is something earth shattering, something which will redefine our existence beyond just adding some more beliefs into the world. It is glorification, the total defeat of death and his being established as king over the entire earth. .

I know you wait for a spectacular and literal fulfillment of Christ’s return. Here is another look at those events with different eyes: From “Baha’u’llah and the New Era”…

“In many of His conversations Christ speaks of the future Manifestation of God in the third person, but in others the first person is used. He says: “I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself” (John xiv, 2–3). In the first chapter of Acts we read that the disciples were told, at the ascension of Jesus: “This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.” Because of these and similar sayings, many 223 Christians expect that when the Son of Man comes “in the clouds of heaven and with great glory” they shall see in bodily form the very Jesus Who walked the streets of Jerusalem two thousand years ago, and bled and suffered on the cross. They expect to be able to thrust their fingers into the prints of the nails on His hands and feet, and their hands into the spear wound in His side. But surely a little reflection on Christ’s own words would dissipate such an idea. The Jews of Christ’s time had just such ideas about the return of Elias, but Jesus explained their error, showing that the prophecy that “Elias must first come” was fulfilled, not by the return of the person and body of the former Elias, but in the person of John the Baptist, who came “in the spirit and power of Elias.” “And if ye will receive it,” said Christ, “this is Elias, which was for to come. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.” The “return” of Elias, therefore, meant the appearance of another person, born of other parents, but inspired by God with the same spirit and power. These words of Jesus may surely be taken to imply that the return of Christ will, in like manner, be accomplished by the appearance of another person, born of another mother, but showing forth the Spirit and Power of God even as Christ did. Bahá’u’lláh explains that the “coming again” of Christ was fulfilled in the advent of the Báb and in His own coming. He says:—
Consider the sun. Were it to say now, “I am the sun of yesterday,” it would speak the truth. And should it, bearing the sequence of time in mind, claim to be other than that sun, it still would speak the truth. In like manner, if it be said that all the days are but one and the same, it is correct and true. And if it be said, with respect to their particular names and designations, that they differ, that again is true. For though they are the same, yet one doth recognize in each a separate designation, a specific attribute, a particular character. Conceive accordingly the distinction, variation, and unity characteristic of the various Manifestations of holiness, that thou mayest comprehend the allusions made by the creator of 224 all names and attributes to the mysteries of distinction and unity, and discover the answer to thy question as to why that everlasting Beauty should have, at sundry times, called Himself by different names and titles.—Kitáb-i-Íqán, 21–22.
‘Abdu’l-Bahá says:—
Know that the return of Christ for a second time doth not mean what the people believe, but rather signifieth the One promised to come after Him. He shall come with the Kingdom of God and His Power which hath surrounded the world. This dominion is in the world of hearts and spirits, and not in that of matter; for the material world is not comparable to a single wing of a fly, in the sight of the Lord, wert thou of those who know! Verily Christ came with His Kingdom from the beginning which hath no beginning, and will come with His Kingdom to the eternity of eternities, inasmuch as in this sense “Christ” is an expression of the Divine Reality, the simple Essence and heavenly Entity, which hath no beginning nor ending. It hath appearance, arising, manifestation and setting in each of the cycles.”

 

[Randy_Carson]

Coming up short in what way specifically Randy?

In that you are not obeying His command to EAT his FLESH and DRINK his BLOOD despite his clear teaching in John 6 and at the Last Supper that you should do this.

Like the Jews who walked away from Jesus in Capernaum, you are, in effect, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat” and “This is a hard teaching…who can accept it”.

It is a difficult teaching and you cannot grasp it because YOUR flesh, that is, YOUR natural mind is of no avail to you here.

 

[Servant19]

In that you are not obeying His command to EAT his FLESH and DRINK his BLOOD despite his clear teaching in John 6 and at the Last Supper that you should do this.

Like the Jews who walked away from Jesus in Capernaum, you are, in effect, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat” and “This is a hard teaching…who can accept it”.

It is a difficult teaching and you cannot grasp it because YOUR flesh, that is, YOUR natural mind is of no avail to you here.

Randy, for everything there is a purpose. You feel this sacrament brings you into union with Him and can, through the grace thus received, carry out works “in remembrance of His Name”

Baha’is are completely confident that they can do the EXACT same thing and so much more, without eating the bread or drinking the wine.

Baha’is understand the essence of what it means and JUST DO IT…no rituals or other such thing. We don’t need a priest any more. Religious history is littered with examples of how priests have misguided their people to go AGAINST God.

In this age, Bahaullah has empowered all individuals to take responsibility of their own lives and align it with the Will of God.

It truly is the age of maturity

 

[SteveVH]

This has already been discussed in detail and anything further is sawing sawdust.

Yes, the question has been discussed but never answered. What I am demonstrating is one of many direct contradictions between Christianity and Islam, both of which you profess to accept as “Truth”. What is evident is that these contradictions are ignored and replaced with a hodgepodge of beliefs and notions that never existed within either.

 

[TexanKnight]

Hi Texan, all the Writings of Bahaullah were either written in modern day Arabic or Farsi, in His own hand, or were transcribed by several appointed amanuenses (such was the rapidity of Revelation) all writing sometimes at the same time. The records were then transcribed and presented to Baha’u’llah for His personal ratification.

It’s as authentic as it gets

Now, without doubt, the English translations do lose some of the melodious beauty present in the original language, but the meaning has most certainly been retained. Shoghi Effendi, Baha’u’llahs great grandson was appointed to be the chosen translator of several of Baha’u’llahs Works

sorry…but “transcribed” and “interpreted” don’t truly make his writings any more reliable than the Words of Jesus

 

[rinnie]

Randy, for everything there is a purpose. You feel this sacrament brings you into union with Him and can, through the grace thus received, carry out works “in remembrance of His Name”

Baha’is are completely confident that they can do the EXACT same thing and so much more, without eating the bread or drinking the wine.

Baha’is understand the essence of what it means and JUST DO IT…no rituals or other such thing. We don’t need a priest any more. Religious history is littered with examples of how priests have misguided their people to go AGAINST God.

In this age, Bahaullah has empowered all individuals to take responsibility of their own lives and align it with the Will of God.

It truly is the age of maturity

What you are saying makes no sense, A bad Priest brings down God and his Church?? So then are you saying people should have ignored Jesus because of Judas?

Where I am confused is sometimes you use the bible, then ignore it.

So tell me in your opinion what makes Baha’i above the Priests. I mean Okay, what you are saying one bad priest fails downs goes the Church.

Then are you saying not one Baha’i has failed? SHow me a Baha’i without sin. If you cannot why do you not hold your faith in the same eyes as your hold the Church.

Because you are saying if the Priest sins it is God who is accountable, Because you blame the RCC.

So you are putting the sins of man at the foot of Christ himself. How can you do this, but yet when a Baha’i sins he is not held responsible? Why this double standard?

Because what you are saying is impossible. You are saying for the RCC to be the true Church the Priest cannot be human. The bible never said this.

And it is not the Priest who leads the Church it is God by the Power of the Holy Spirit.

So how does personal sin of a Priest, make the truth of God wrong? I am so so confused here.

And more yet, why are the sins of Baha’i allowed, and yet his truth valid?

 

[Servant19]

sorry…but “transcribed” and “interpreted” don’t truly make his writings any more reliable than the Words of Jesus

Maybe you misunderstood Texan.

Imagine I am an amanuensis of Baha’u’llah. One day, He is revealing the Word of God, and I am writing frantically to catch every single word. In fact, I write incredibly fast in shorthand. I then go home that night and transfer my shorthand onto really nice paper and really nice handwriting. The next day I present this to Baha’u’llah who makes some small changes if necessary and this is what we have today.

Hope that helps

 

[Servant19]

What you are saying makes no sense, A bad Priest brings down God and his Church?? So then are you saying people should have ignored Jesus because of Judas?

Where I am confused is sometimes you use the bible, then ignore it.

So tell me in your opinion what makes Baha’i above the Priests. I mean Okay, what you are saying one bad priest fails downs goes the Church.

Then are you saying not one Baha’i has failed? SHow me a Baha’i without sin. If you cannot why do you not hold your faith in the same eyes as your hold the Church.

Because you are saying if the Priest sins it is God who is accountable, Because you blame the RCC.

So you are putting the sins of man at the foot of Christ himself. How can you do this, but yet when a Baha’i sins he is not held responsible? Why this double standard?

Because what you are saying is impossible. You are saying for the RCC to be the true Church the Priest cannot be human. The bible never said this.

And it is not the Priest who leads the Church it is God by the Power of the Holy Spirit.

So how does personal sin of a Priest, make the truth of God wrong? I am so so confused here.

And more yet, why are the sins of Baha’i allowed, and yet his truth valid?

Dear rinnie, there is a lot to address here, and I am dozing off here in Australia. Please accept my apologies. I’m sure some of the other Baha’is will assist you, otherwise I will walk through it with you tomorrow angel

God bless