Baha'i V

[SteveVH]

God as Creator still creates in our view … so the universe continues…

The point is very, very simple, arthra. If creation is eternal then it is not creation at all. If it is eternal then it exists of its own power, apart from God. It has been revealed to us that this is not the case. That everything that exists or has ever existed was created by God through Jesus Christ. Only God is eternal. Reason alone tells us that the Baha’i position is completely illogical. The very word “creation” means that something had a beginning and exists as the result or cause of something else and therefore, by its very nature, cannot be eternal.

Please tell me you understand this.

 

[SteveVH]

The Qur’an we believe states that they could not kill or crucify the Spirit of Jesus…

The Qur’an you believe? Which Qur’an is that? This is like me saying “the American Constitution I believe says that you don’t have the right to free speech.”

'Abdu’l-Baha’s interpretation of the verse (Surih 4:157) is provided in a Tablet published in Star of the West, vol. 2, no. 7, p. 13, in which He has written:

“In regard to the verse, which is revealed in the Koran, that His Highness, Christ, was not killed and was not crucified, by this is meant the Reality of Christ…”

Perfect. Did the Jews also stone the “Reality of Stephen” and sever the “Reality of John the Baptist” from is body?

 

[Nick44]

Yes, the question has been discussed but never answered. What I am demonstrating is one of many direct contradictions between Christianity and Islam, both of which you profess to accept as “Truth”. What is evident is that these contradictions are ignored and replaced with a hodgepodge of beliefs and notions that never existed within either.

See Arthra’s post #159 which explains the Baha’i understanding of the verse you questioned.

 

[eddie_too]

remember the bahai who post here are attempting to use this forum for proselytizing. they have no interest in learning about the RCC.

also, the bahai are not christian. they totally reject the christian dogmas of the incarnation and the trinity.

what the bahai believe originates from a man, not from God.

that is why the bahai have such great difficulty understanding the words of our Creator. they rely on the words of man.

Jesus came because the acts of disobedience by Adam and Eve resulted in every human being having a clouded intellect which prevents them from knowing God as God wanted Himself known by mankind.

it is only through God becoming man in the person of Jesus Christ that out clouded intellects can be repaired. for this repair to take effect a human being must place his faith totally and completely in the outstretched arms of the crucified Christ.

no human being can have a sound relationship with his or her Creator except through faith in Jesus Christ.

it is not possible that the bahai can provide a rational understanding of the human condition and mankind’s relationship to its Creator.

the bahai are in no way christian. they have little to no understanding of what christians believe. they reject much if not most of what mankind was given by Jesus Christ. they deman Jesus Christ by denying His divinity and simultaneously do not comprehend how christians find non-christians lowering the two natures and the Person of Jesus Christ to be demeaning Him.

they elevate a man to be equal to and in some respects greater than Jesus Christ and then simultaneously that this is not demaning to the Incarnate Word.

i repeat the bahai who post to this forum are here solely in an attempt to proselytize. i do not blame them for this since that is what they have been taught. it is however disingenuous to pretend that they are here to engage in a dialogue. there words have adequately demonstrated that they have no interest in learning what Jesus Christ gave to us.

those who love Jesus Christ will reject bahaullah as an imposter and wannabe usurper.

 

[SteveVH]

God bless you Steve, I think you’re finally understanding the apparent contradiction

That the body dies and the soul lives is not a contradiction or even an apparent contradiction and is certainly not a thought unique to the Baha’i. Relatively speaking, it is nothing special.

Rising bodily from the dead, however, is something quite special. It had never been accomplished. To say his soul went on to heaven says nothing unique. To have his body rise from the dead, demonstrating his defeat of sin and death, is unique only to Christ.

 

[SteveVH]

LOL !!

Admit it Steve, it put a smile on your face. It summarises the theology of Baha’i belief pretty panoramically.

Actually it was more of a grimace. We have enough to talk about without playing silly games.

 

[eddie_too]

it is quite a misunderstanding to believe that Perfect Being is not fully actualized.

any being that is still creating necessarily is limited because the being is not fully actuallized but there remains with the being potential, even if it is the potential of continually creating anew.

everytime the bahai comment, they reveal the incompleteness and lack of logic of their beliefs.

the very idea that God is still creating denies the perfection of God. yet, the bahai in their confusion cannot understand this very simple concept, that Perfect Being is fully actualized there is no potential in almighty God. THAT concept that Pefect Being possesses potential is a contradiction.

it makes perfect sense that both bahaullah and joseph smith, with the many similarities in their teachings, came from the same century. i guess it was the zeitgeist of the 19th century that produced men so confused and yet so arrogant.

 

[SteveVH]

Originally Posted by Nick44
Esslemont, Baha’u’llah and the New Era, pp. 20-21

An important part of the Bab’s teaching is His explanation of the terms Resurrection, Day of Judgment, Paradise and Hell. By the Resurrection is meant, He said, the appearance of a new Manifestation of the Sun of Truth. The raising of the dead means the spiritual awakening of those who are asleep in the graves of ignorance, heedlessness and lust. The Day of Judgment is the Day of the new Manifestation, by acceptance or rejection of Whose Revelation the sheep are separated from the goats, for the sheep know the voice of the Good Shepherd and follow Him. Paradise is the joy of knowing and loving God, as revealed through His Manifestation, thereby attaining to the utmost perfection of which one is capable, and, after death, obtaining entrance to the Kingdom of God and the life everlasting. Hell is simply deprivation of that knowledge of God with consequent failure to attain divine perfection, and loss of the Eternal Favor. He definitely declared that these terms have no real meaning apart from this; and that the prevalent ideas regarding the resurrection of the material body, a material heaven and hell, and the like, are mere figments of the imagination. He taught that man has a life after death, and that in the afterlife progress towards perfection is limitless.

So true indeed Nick

Was Apostle Paul resurrected too? I think so…

No, Paul was not resurrected. Nor did Paul, nor any Apostle, nor any Church father, ever say anything close to the Baha’i position. Baha’u’llah has fabricated his own version of history and theology in order to draw attention to and glorify himself.

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

 

[eddie_too]

the bahai concept of eternal progression certainly sounds like HELL to me.

for me, eternal rest in perfect peace and love sounds like HEAVEN.

it is incomprehensible to me why anyone would like to spend eternity seeking what they can never find, bizarre do not you think?

 

[SteveVH]

Steve,
. I think that the Word of God, from whatever source, is intended to stir the ashes so our fire doesn’t go on, meaning that we are supposed to be thinking and considering new ideas as they come.

God has only one Word and that Word is Jesus Christ.

The Crucifixion
Luke 2343 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

Literally, Jesus was taken to the tomb, right? If both Jesus and the thief were “really dead”, where did the body and soul of the thief go?

The body of the thief went to the grave, as all “really dead” bodies do. His soul went to Paradise awaiting the resurrection of his body on the last day.

Silly question, but maybe worth asking. So did he have to wait around for 3 days for the Lord Christ to join him?
. No need to answer, the point follows:

the martyrs referred to in the Quran “are alive”, and not dead, according to its text. What is dead is their physical bodies, not their souls, which, like the thief, are in heaven or paradise, with the Lord.

Agreed. But not just the martyrs. This applies to everyone.

Where my thoughts and understanding goes is that what we, in earthly language call “heaven”, is beyond words and description, where science cannot detect and religion also has limits. Hence, we are left with metaphorical hints which seem to take us beyond the physical world to a spiritual ocean, the closest to which we can come is the beach.

My understanding of the Baha’i position is that unless something can be verified scientifically then it is not to be believed. You deny Christ’s glorified body because you say one cannot have a physical body and at the same time walk through walls. You hold this position because it doesn’t mesh with scientific truth. I am open to correction if this is not your position.

 

[eddie_too]

i think what the bahai believe, like the mormons, depends upon which member of the bahai is doing the talking. there is no human being in the bahai who speaks dogmatically for all bahai.

 

[TexanKnight]

Maybe you misunderstood Texan.

Imagine I am an amanuensis of Baha’u’llah. One day, He is revealing the Word of God, and I am writing frantically to catch every single word. In fact, I write incredibly fast in shorthand. I then go home that night and transfer my shorthand onto really nice paper and really nice handwriting. The next day I present this to Baha’u’llah who makes some small changes if necessary and this is what we have today.

Hope that helps

Not really. I knew some Bahia when I lived in Honduras. We had long discussions and I did some reading.

Frankly, you sound no different than Mormons…just from a different part of the world.

And frantic shorthand is usually full of errors.

 

[Nick44]

Baha’u’llah has fabricated his own version of history and theology in order to draw attention to and glorify himself.

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

Steve, Baha’u’llah could have easily chosen to live the life of luxury and wealth that He was born into, yet, He willingly endured 40 years of exile and imprisonment at the direction of God’s Will. Recognize that what Baha’u’llah endured was unendurable.

“Consider the mercy of God and His gifts. He enjoineth upon you that which shall profit you, though He Himself can well dispense with all creatures. Your evil doings can never harm Us, neither can your good works profit Us. We summon you wholly for the sake of God. To this every man of understanding and insight will testify.” (Baha’u’llah, Gleanings, pg 139)

 

[SteveVH]

Steve, Baha’u’llah could have easily chosen to live the life of luxury and wealth that He was born into, yet, He willingly endured 40 years of exile and imprisonment at the direction of God’s Will. Recognize that what Baha’u’llah endured was unendurable.

What does this have to do with the veracity of his theology (which centers upon himself)?

“Consider the mercy of God and His gifts. He enjoineth upon you that which shall profit you, though He Himself can well dispense with all creatures. Your evil doings can never harm Us, neither can your good works profit Us. We summon you wholly for the sake of God. To this every man of understanding and insight will testify.” (Baha’u’llah, Gleanings, pg 139)

Okay.

 

[eddie_too]

never forget, Jesus suffered death, even death on the cross, for your salvation.

bahaullah did nothing to benefit you.

bahaullah spent his life proclaiming how he was superior to Jesus and how what Jesus taught us was all wrong.

weigh the two lives. bahaullah lived to a natural death among adoring followers. Jesus was tortured and murdered for your salvation.

the choice is yours. choose wisely.

 

[eddie_too]

the extent of bahaullah’s suffering was virtually non-existent.

he lived in a, in the most severe sense, a benign house arrest.

he lacked for nothing except freedom of movement during his exile.

he was allowed to write and teach. he received enough to eat and drink. he was well clothed and sheltered. he had access to the best health care. he had access to his adoring sycophants.

his suffering was nowhere near that of millions of prisoners throughout history. for example, those imprisoned in the soviet gulags; or, the chinese prisons.

the mere fact that his followers tout the ENORMOUS suffering of bahaullah indicates the depths of the delusions from which they themselves are suffering.

 

[rinnie]

Dear rinnie, there is a lot to address here, and I am dozing off here in Australia. Please accept my apologies. I’m sure some of the other Baha’is will assist you, otherwise I will walk through it with you tomorrow angel

God bless

Have a wonderful peaceful sleep!

 

[doormouse73]

God has only one Word and that Word is Jesus Christ.

The body of the thief went to the grave, as all “really dead” bodies do. His soul went to Paradise awaiting the resurrection of his body on the last day.

Agreed. But not just the martyrs. This applies to everyone.

My understanding of the Baha’i position is that unless something can be verified scientifically then it is not to be believed. You deny Christ’s glorified body because you say one cannot have a physical body and at the same time walk through walls. You hold this position because it doesn’t mesh with scientific truth. I am open to correction if this is not your position.

you are correct SteveVH in what you are saying here…

The body of the thief went to the grave, as all “really dead” bodies do. His soul went to Paradise awaiting the resurrection of his body on the last day.

the last two lines of the Nicene Creed…

and I Look forward to the resurrection of the dead

and the life of the world to come.

they dot want to listen,they just want to talk…its a no brainer…

 

[tonyfish58]

the extent of bahaullah’s suffering was virtually non-existent.

he lived in a, in the most severe sense, a benign house arrest.

he lacked for nothing except freedom of movement during his exile.

he was allowed to write and teach. he received enough to eat and drink. he was well clothed and sheltered. he had access to the best health care. he had access to his adoring sycophants.

his suffering was nowhere near that of millions of prisoners throughout history. for example, those imprisoned in the soviet gulags; or, the chinese prisons.

the mere fact that his followers tout the ENORMOUS suffering of bahaullah indicates the depths of the delusions from which they themselves are suffering.

Eddie I have left this Forum and was only going to monitor the discussions. Why I was going to monitor was for this particular reason.

You do not have to agree with the Baha’i point of view, but to slander with outright lies what Baha’u’llah suffered is something a Christian should consider, “Is this a Christian Act”

IMHO - It is replies like these that should be moderated by this Forum.

I do not need to post the truth re this matters, it is easy to find if one wishes to be just. In fact it has already been shown the Bab suffered almost identically as to how Christ Suffered and for the same reasons.

I hope that yours and this comment will be deleted from this post. If they are not, I hope people that read your comments have justice in their hearts to actually search the truth out in this matter.

God Bless - Regards Tony

 

[eddie_too]

tony,
so you think bab and bahaullah are the same human being?